Dress Code

feardeas

In lots of schools many staff are not in the union. Bit sick of union bring mini dictators. We've been summoned to a meeting already to do something that we never did before.

2RockMountain

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'd say the union wouldn't touch it unless a good number of teachers objected... and even at that there would probably have to be a disciplinary case instigated to kick things off.

I'd be very dissapointed with any union rep who let something like this come to pass without at least raising it with a union. Any change like this would have to go through a Board of Management, which includes a teachers' nominee. Both management and unions would want to address significant issues LONG before a disciplinary case has been instigated. Both sides have failed if they reach that stage.

feardeas wrote: »

In lots of schools many staff are not in the union. Bit sick of union bring mini dictators.

mini-dictators can be voted out. Unions are democratic. If you don't like your union, change it through the democratic processes available to you.

feardeas wrote: »

We've been summoned to a meeting already to do something that we never did before.

Sorry, just don't understand what this means.

evolving_doors

2RockMountain wrote: »

I'd be very dissapointed with any union rep who let something like this come to pass without at least raising it with a union. Any change like this would have to go through a Board of Management, which includes a teachers' nominee. Both management and unions would want to address significant issues LONG before a disciplinary case has been instigated. Both sides have failed if they reach that stage.


mini-dictators can be voted out. Unions are democratic. If you don't like your union, change it through the democratic processes available to you.


Sorry, just don't understand what this means.

That's a fair point alright, a bit of talk wouldn't go amiss.

doc_17

The only thing that should be imposed on teachers is equal pay scales.

icebergiceberg

Musketeer4 wrote: »

In ideal world we wouldn't need defined dress codes for professional jobs and people would have the cop on to dress appropriately, eg reasonably smart-casual for teaching. But as with everything else, its the piss takers who end up being the reason these things are brought in, feckers with flip flops and big manky jesus beards.


For instance where I work theres a couple of fellas around the office wearing sandals day in day out. Ffs, I don't want to be staring straight into your big scummy toenails every time I go to pass you on the stairs.

Yep. Colleagues certainly can infuriate.
Female staff members coming in glowy pink tracksuits. Females wearing very, very short skirts. Why would a woman do that in a school? And whilst not pertaining to dress code as such, females brushing their hair in the staffroom.
As you say, some people have no cop on. And no class.

implausible

icebergiceberg wrote: »

And whilst not pertaining to dress code as such, females brushing their hair in the staffroom.
As you say, some people have no cop on. And no class.

Em, what? What's wrong with this?

Giacomo McGubbin

Why would anyone want to wear jeans at work all day ? Very uncomfortable and restrictive.
You actually can't beat the comfort of a pair of chino's and a nice shirt, far more comfortable than most clothing, and the added bonus of being casual but smart.

evolving_doors

Are we hinting at a desire to bring in the cloak folks
A uniform school uniform for teachers.

purplecow1977

I think secondary teachers are usually expected to be more 'professionally' dressed than primary teachers. In my school, teachers wear anything from jeans, dresses, sportswear etc.

Dave0301

I work in a UK school. Full suit and tie expected on teaching days. Gowns and hoods on formal occasions.

Wearing jeans? That's a paddling.

purplecow1977

I wear jeans most days to work! If I was told I couldn't wear them, I don't know what I'd do!!!

uck51js9zml2yt

It reminds me of the new army recruit who asked his sergeant if he could grow a moustache.
The sergeant said "Of course you can, but not on my time" .... true story!

Teachers in my son's school are smart casual. Never seen any wear jeans.

icebergiceberg

implausible wrote: »

Em, what? What's wrong with this?

What's wrong with brushing your hair in the staffroom?
Lack of self awareness. Lack of class. Basic bad manners.

It's the equivalent of smoking while walking down the street or in extremis, wearing pyjamas in public.

gaiscioch

wrote:

I work in a UK school. Full suit and tie expected on teaching days. Gowns and hoods on formal occasions.

Ugh. Yet another reason (not that one is ever needed) to reject attempts to "reform" (ha!) our education system by aping the yellow pack, administrator-led, paper-obsessed, spirit-crushing English system.

Dave0301

gaiscioch wrote: »

Ugh. Yet another reason (not that one is ever needed) to reject attempts to "reform" (ha!) our education system by aping the yellow pack, administrator-led, paper-obsessed, spirit-crushing English system.

Have to say, wearing a suit teaching really doesn't bother me at all. It was always the expectation so I knew that it was the norm. I can see why people would have a possible issue with the introduction of a dress code if it was a big change.

As for the rest, I think I have just been lucky in regards to the schools I am in as I don't have to deal with that stuff :pac:

implausible

icebergiceberg wrote:

What's wrong with brushing your hair in the staffroom? Lack of self awareness. Lack of class. Basic bad manners.

It's the equivalent of smoking while walking down the street or in extremis, wearing pyjamas in public.

Wow! That's a lot of assumptions and judgement over something that many women have to do several times a day. I suppose a 1950s updo or a head scarf would solve the problem....

I'm intrigued though - is it a hygiene thing or does it shatter an illusion that women wake up as perfectly-groomed creatures every morning?

This comment reminds me of a recent Twitter storm where a man was giving out about women doing their makeup on the train; either it hadn't occurred to him that a woman might have 3 hours work done with kids and house before heading to work or perhaps he felt they should get up even earlier to avoid offending his sensibilities on his morning commute.

Stepping Stone

Not a teacher myself, but my friend is one. A school that she worked in previously had a predominantly young, female staff. They were very fashionable and very conscious of their appearance. She said that it was a real distraction for some, who weremore worried about their outfits than the quality of their work. It was a long time ago now and nust a snapshot of immature young women in one particular school but I remember meeting a few of them in highly questionable outfits (bodycon is surely not acceptable) more than once.

A reflection of that time I suppose but I can understand how dress codes can be necessary. We have one where I work that is particularly strict but it actually doesn't matter when everyone is wearing a similar outfit.

Teyla Emmagan

implausible wrote:

Em, what? What's wrong with this?

It's bad manners to groom yourself on public. Take your hairbrush to the loo with you.

selectamatic

I'm assuming this is a large urban school?
Teacher training colleges discourage/forbid denim jeans during teaching practice although in many schools jeans are seen as acceptable within reason (no ripped yokes or crosshatch things with rakes of pockets).
I myself wear jeans predominantly but tbf this is a bit of a storm in a teacup whats the issue with wearing chinos/pants if that's what the board want?
Also any union will laugh at the thought of getting involved, all high ranking union members wear suits from my own experience.

implausible

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

It's bad manners to groom yourself on public. Take your hairbrush to the loo with you.

Is an employee rest area public? We have over 30 female staff and 2 tiny toilets. Let's say you brush your hair three times a day - you do the math. And that's not to include touching up makeup or reapplying perfume. Next thing you'll have people complaining they can't actually get into the toilet.

The things that bother people often astound me.

Teyla Emmagan

implausible wrote:

Is an employee rest area public? We have over 30 female staff and 2 tiny toilets. Let's say you brush your hair three times a day - you do the math. And that's not to include touching up makeup or reapplying perfume. Next thing you'll have people complaining they can't actually get into the toilet.

You really think other people want to be stuck in a room with you spraying perfume all over yourself and lumps of hair flying at them? No, they don't. It's their rest area too. And that is thoughtless and selfish behaviour.

The lack of self awareness some people have never ceases to amaze me.

r93kaey5p2izun

In general I agree that brushing hair in a public place is bad manners but at the same time I have to agree with implausible that the facilities in many schools are totally inadequate and therefore it's just not realistic to expect all the women to go to the bathroom to brush their hair. We have 3 tiny toilets with one sink and mirror for over 80 female staff.

implausible

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

You really think other people want to be stuck in a room with you spraying perfume all over yourself and lumps of hair flying at them? No, they don't. It's their rest area too. And that is thoughtless and selfish behaviour.

The lack of self awareness some people have never ceases to amaze me.

I'm not an expert on hair, but I'm fairly sure that if there are lumps of it flying, people are (a) doing it wrong or (b) in need of a doctor.

The locker area in our staff room is a health and safety nightmare by that description :eek:

icebergiceberg

implausible wrote: »

Wow! That's a lot of assumptions and judgement over something that many women have to do several times a day. I suppose a 1950s updo or a head scarf would solve the problem....

I'm intrigued though - is it a hygiene thing or does it shatter an illusion that women wake up as perfectly-groomed creatures every morning?

This comment reminds me of a recent Twitter storm where a man was giving out about women doing their makeup on the train; either it hadn't occurred to him that a woman might have 3 hours work done with kids and house before heading to work or perhaps he felt they should get up even earlier to avoid offending his sensibilities on his morning commute.

If you need to ask these questions, there is no point in trying to explain.

looksee

I used wear jeans, and even sometimes an apron over them. Then again I was working in a war zone of an art and design room with paint, glue, muck, dust and water!

implausible

icebergiceberg wrote: »

If you need to ask these questions, there is no point in trying to explain.

Well, I asked so that someone would explain. Some posters commented that it was bad manners, which is a new one on me (and on quite a few of my colleagues seemingly) - I'll be having words with my errant mother about that! Common sense would have told me that as long as it's not on top of someone else e.g. on a bus or around food, it's not affecting anyone, so nobody cares.

It seems I shall need etiquette grinds, (well as soon as we get our powder room) .

evolving_doors

implausible wrote: »

Well, I asked so that someone would explain. Some posters commented that it was bad manners, which is a new one on me (and on quite a few of my colleagues seemingly) - I'll be having words with my errant mother about that! Common sense would have told me that as long as it's not on top of someone else e.g. on a bus or around food, it's not affecting anyone, so nobody cares.

It seems I shall need etiquette grinds, (well as soon as we get our powder room) .

Again i suppose we are getting into 'where is the line' with various other foibles!

As it happens I was eating my lunch last Friday and placed my hand on the table before picking up my sandwich (which was placed on top of a clean plate), I just caught eye of a recently brushed hair stuck to my hand before it engaged with the sandwich. So I think if it's an area where food might be eaten then maybe brushing hair aint the best thing to be doing. It was a serial hairbrusher too BTW because I could tell by the length and tint and have seen the perp. brush her hair around that area before. Maybe it's more ignorance than bad manners though!

Would it be true to say that most people eat in the staffrooms where said hairbrushing goes on?

Don't get me started on the perfume and deodorant spraying.

mariaalice

But does anyone not see the connection to how you esteem your profession, its not about wearing suits and ties which is a bit old fashioned, smart causal covers it really. There was a comment on a thread about bullying about being taught by some teaches who did't hide the contempt they had for their job and how that atmosphere and milieu contribution to the type of school it is.

A hospital consultant could wear anything they like come to work in jean but they don't why is that.

implausible

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Again i suppose we are getting into 'where is the line' with various other foibles!

As it happens I was eating my lunch last Friday and placed my hand on the table before picking up my sandwich (which was placed on top of a clean plate), I just caught eye of a recently brushed hair stuck to my hand before it engaged with the sandwich. So I think if it's an area where food might be eaten then maybe brushing hair aint the best thing to be doing. It was a serial hairbrusher too BTW because I could tell by the length and tint and have seen the perp. brush her hair around that area before. Maybe it's more ignorance than bad manners though!

Would it be true to say that most people eat in the staffrooms where said hairbrushing goes on?

Don't get me started on the perfume and deodorant spraying.

That would gross me out too! That's just unhygienic. However, maybe the set-up of our staffroom is different to others - we have a general chatting, eating area and then a row of lockers partition off another area with computers, staff lockers, book storage and coat-pegs etc, which is where the offences occur.

I wouldn't brush my hair on top of someone's food (eugh) and likewise with spraying stuff.

KeyCode

seamus wrote: »

Jeans are always a weird one. I see no issue with anyone wearing jeans in any environment, but many people from older generations consider them to be ultra-casual. I'd be more focussed on what someone wears on the upper body when it comes to assessing how casually they're dressed.

I don't quite get that one myself. We had a principal in school when I was a student not all that long ago (well long enough but not in another era entirely) who used have non-uniform days where he banned jeans. There's definitely some notion out there amongst a particularly out of touch generation who seem to be stuck somewhere in the 1950s when it comes to an understanding of what people actually wear.

I think it's reasonable to expect teachers to come in dressed 'smart causal' though.

Having lived and experienced school abroad, I think Ireland actually has a huge problem with some kind of fixation on uniforms and dress codes in school. The reality in the work environment is that outside of jobs where the uniform is part of displaying some kind of authority (Gardai, Army, Airlines etc), or some kind of corporate image where you're customer facing (retail, sometimes reception etc), it's highly unusual to be expected to wear anything other than 'business atire' or in many more creative industries, whatever you like as long as you don't smell bad or cause some kind of major distraction (printed LED t-shirts actually were a thing in one office I worked in...)

I just find it odd that on the one hand we are trying to educate this population of creative, thinking-outside-the-box individuals that are capable of holding their own against the best that Silicon Valley has to throw at them, yet we educate them in environments that seem to be straight out of the 19th century when it comes to things like this.

We really could do with a bit of a culture change at school. I mean, somehow we all go to university and dress however we like and all turn out fine. As do school kids all over Europe and the US!

If anything, I actually find Irish and British adults have a really poor understanding of how to dress and I wonder if that is somehow linked to having spent their lives from 5 to 18 dressed in some weird looking, usually very ugly uniform.

I think for teaching staff, there's a reasonable expection to 'look professional'. That probably means not coming in dressed like you're out for a night on the town or heading to the gym. But I think most people should have some kind of notion of what 'smart casual' looks like and what your typical teacher should probably be trying to project as an image.

I think it's kind of unreasonable to expect staff to dress like bankers, or more likely in Ireland : nuns.