Since you all love an argument...

Hanley

...discuss this.

At the end of the day, weightlifting is basically lifting a bar just high enough to THROW yourself underneath it and try to stand up with the weight. We don't snatch or clean in RevFit.

Here's why: http://revolutionfitness.ie/dont-snatch-clean/

LuckyLloyd

I 100% agree. I think any gym that has relative beginners snatching an empty bar are way off base. You will even see gyms with photos or footage from their gym floor on snatch or clean day with multiple trainees demonstrating terrible movement or obvious impingement.

Now I'm terrible at the Olympic movements, I just can't get them straight at all. But I don't need them and I'd challenge whether the vast majority of people training need them. At CFS where I train, a small portion of the gym that have got to a certain point in terms of strength and movement train the lifts. They enjoy the challenge, but they've reached a point (sometimes over a couple of years) where they have built up a good strength base; have solid movement and might welcome the variety of tackling a skill based challenge.

I also reckon some gyms program them to beginners in a one size fits all way because of ego or preference. And if such things are driving your programming it's probably a bad thing. It's also got to be stupid to program the same thing for everyone in a gym at any one time. Sure, writing three or four programs is more expensive and time consuming and makes coaching more difficult. But the outcomes just have to be better. Anything else simply doesn't make basic sense.

So, yeah...no debate here.

EmcD123

I love olympic lifting and I really enjoy competing in it but I dont ever really recommend doing it to anyone I know exactly for those kind of reasons.

I didnt know what weightlifting was about when I signed up to try it, my first time holding an actual barbell was when I did a snatch. I didnt even know how much it weighed:P
So i would kind of disagree that strength is needed first because while its slow going I am getting stronger and as I get stronger my lifts are getting better, but I dont see much point in going through with learning them unless youre going to compete since they hurt and they're frustrating and you'll probably feel much better just training something kinda normal and less technical

jive

Agreed, most people go to the gym to look good naked and be healthy. I think complex Olympic movements are superfluous (I'm well smart me) and add unnecessary risk of injury.

Longevity and consistency are the key to looking good naked, staying injury free is key to longevity and consistency.

There's nothing magical about those lifts which can't be achieved through less complex compound movements and body weight exercises.

Hanley

I was expecting more of a rabble.

Alf Veedersane

Hanley wrote: »

I was expecting more of a rabble.

You've united Boards like The Hoff united Germany.

Kudos.

BrokenArrows

Hanley wrote: »

I was expecting more of a rabble.

I wasn't aware anyone thought snatch and clean were even remotely required as part of general non competitive weight lifting. Something like that screams specialization to me.

There are far more controlled methods of exercise that doesnt risk noobs losing control of their bar and hurting themselves or someone else, and even as we saw in the olympics the pros ****up sometimes too.

Blacktie.

Hanley wrote:

I was expecting more of a rabble.

Squats for huge arms!

Mellor

No argument here. I doing the Olympic movements arm. But I'm doing them because I want to do them. And I was training a few years, with reasonable numbers before I added them in. Previously when I wanted to train something "explosive" I did box jumps.

CM24

Have heard both Joe DeFranco and Eric Cressey say this aswell, for the average Joe, just getting stronger and doing basic jump training will be more beneficial than the Olympic lifts when it comes to increasing explosiveness. I remember doing one of Cresseys programs before and it had broad jumps in it every week. I can't remember exactly how many inches my jump increased by within 2 months but it was crazy.

JJayoo

Weightlifting, snatches and clean+jerks, for power/explosiveness should only be a consideration if your technique is spot on, always cringe when I see rugby players on about using these movements.

I like the Joe DeFranco thinking on this =risk vs reward, and uses a lot of jumps to train triple extension with his athletes.

TommyKnocker

I have a question if I may?

Riptoe's "Starting Strength" program, which is widely recommended, includes the power clean. So if you were to remove this exercise from the program what exercise would you substitute it with to keep the program balanced? The SS site advises that the "Pendlay Row" is a "somewhat acceptable" substitute, are there any others/better?

livedadream

i like lifting heavy things but i like running too.

i am no longer 20 stone and as wide as i am tall.

i have a very pretty snatch...

Mellor

TommyKnocker wrote: »

I have a question if I may?

Riptoe's "Starting Strength" program, which is widely recommended, includes the power clean. So if you were to remove this exercise from the program what exercise would you substitute it with to keep the program balanced? The SS site advises that the "Pendlay Row" is a "somewhat acceptable" substitute, are there any others/better?

There's a version that excludes power cleans I thought.

Mellor

TommyKnocker wrote: »

I have a question if I may?

Riptoe's "Starting Strength" program, which is widely recommended, includes the power clean. So if you were to remove this exercise from the program what exercise would you substitute it with to keep the program balanced? The SS site advises that the "Pendlay Row" is a "somewhat acceptable" substitute, are there any others/better?

There's a version that excludes power cleans I thought.

TommyKnocker

Mellor wrote: »

There's a version that excludes power cleans I thought.

The program I seen on the SS website had beginner, intermediate and advanced routines.

The beginner had dead lifts in each workout. When the weight of the DL had raised sufficiently you substituted power cleans into one of the workouts to help recovery. The advanced routine also included power cleans.

As I said, the pendlay row and chin ups were given as a "somewhat acceptable" substitute for the power clean. So in the context of the OP I was wondering were there any other exercises which could be switched in instead of the clean, but which would keep the balance of the program.

Mellor

TommyKnocker wrote: »

The program I seen on the SS website had beginner, intermediate and advanced routines.

The beginner had dead lifts in each workout. When the weight of the DL had raised sufficiently you substituted power cleans into one of the workouts to help recovery. The advanced routine also included power cleans.

That's just phases 1, 2 and 3 of the original SS beginner program, not the different versions of the program. It's done like that to allow your deadlift to progress fast initially.

The one I was talking about is from practical programming. It has chin ups and pull up but no cleans.
http://startingstrengthmirror.wikia.com/wiki/The_Starting_Strength_Novice/Beginner_Programs#Practical_Programming_Novice_Program:

Onus Wundler and Wichita Falls are the other versions. Both have cleans.