Dating an unemployed woman

zcorpian88

Wanderer78 wrote: »

being with somebody with mental health issues is extremely difficult, particularly when they dont want or are simply unable to help themselves. unfortunately ive had to walk away in the past. ive no regrets in doing so.

Tell me about it, it's not something where you can tell them to "Snap out of it"

or "What would you have to be depressed about?" it doesn't work that way, the world could be their oyster, but still have a look on their face like the world is ending.

It is very difficult to be with someone who is like that, I really tried in my situation but as I said, it was very taxing on my patience and when you can't enjoy anything that you'd like to do with them and even trying to get basic things that any relationship is supposed to have but they refuse to meet you half way. You'd be left with no choice but to jump ship. It's not like me to finish with anyone, all my relationships before her ended amicably, but that one stung and there was nothing I could do about it. Helpless.

mzungu

Elliott S wrote: »

I don't think it's harsh. People are indeed entitled to rule out whoever they wish. Others are entitled to their own views on those parameters.

Never said otherwise, though. How is not wanting to date somebody because they have mental illness any different from not wanting to date them due to not being attracted to them?

Horusire

zcorpian88 wrote: »

Tell me about it, it's not something where you can tell them to "Snap out of it"

or "What would you have to be depressed about?" it doesn't work that way, the world could be their oyster, but still have a look on their face like the world is ending.

It is very difficult to be with someone who is like that, I really tried in my situation but as I said, it was very taxing on my patience and when you can't enjoy anything that you'd like to do with them and even trying to get basic things that any relationship is supposed to have but they refuse to meet you half way. You'd be left with no choice but to jump ship. It's not like me to finish with anyone, all my relationships before her ended amicably, but that one stung and there was nothing I could do about it. Helpless.

Was in a similar situation. Basic things like going for a night away or to the cinema were cancelled last minute because of my ex's so called "depression" which used to suddenly manifest itself when something did not go her way or she did not want to do something.

The final straw was her handing in notice to her fully pensionable public sector job without even talking to me because she felt she "needed time away from the rat race to pursue her other interests and to find herself"

find herself??? Well she quickly found herself without an other half and has been on the dole the last 3 years.

Depression? Clinical laziness in her case!

/rant

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

zcorpian88

Horusire wrote: »

Was in a similar situation. Basic things like going for a night away or to the cinema were cancelled last minute because of my ex's so called "depression" which used to suddenly manifest itself when something did not go her way or she did not want to do something.

The final straw was her handing in notice to her fully pensionable public sector job without even talking to me because she felt she "needed time away from the rat race to pursue her other interests and to find herself"

find herself??? Well she quickly found herself without an other half and has been on the dole the last 3 years.

Depression? Clinical laziness in her case!

/rant

I know your pain, sure just before I ended it she was in a tizzy over some data she was collecting and that set off her depression, she was doing a phD then, so her work was never ending really. My birthday was coming up, and I like to mark the day with my friends and obviously my girlfriend, but her work being relentless and her pain in the hole supervisor and her bint of a colleague in America were e-mailing her around the clock, even into 10-11pm on a Saturday night, when I travelled across the country to see her (long distance relationship)...she barely blinked an eyelid at me all weekend and spent most of it on her laptop and announces she can't come down for my birthday.

I being disappointed, I let it go and gave her the benefit of the doubt and I thinking I know her well enough to know she'd make it up to me because I would have if the tables were turned out of love, loyalty and respect for her. She throws some DVDs at me for my birthday which was the following week, and I go home kind of believing it was a waste of a journey since we didn't even do much. Couldn't even go out for dinner, or to the cinema, or even for a walk, basically just stuck in the house looking at the 4 walls.

I go out and mark my birthday the next week and my whole friend circle make me feel like s**t because they'd have known I'd have liked her to be there and I got a lot of pity looks all night.

I go up to her again the following week, still working, still sulking with her depression, still not really blinking an eyelid. Working, working, working again until 10-11 on a Saturday - Sunday night. I try and initiate some intimacy/sex being it was 6 weeks since we had sex! And.....nothing!

Hate to sound like a c**t but could you blame me for wanting to end it. No quality time (because of the work), not much of a future (with her thoughts on children) no intimacy or sex.

She's with a another guy now, God help him! Doesn't know what he's in for.

Wibbs

Elliott S wrote:

It seems you have decided that a small amount of attention-seekers are representative of people with mental health issues. It's reactionary nonsense.

Antibiotics are developed and introduced and widely prescribed. As are antibacterial therapies across the board and the public are made aware of contamination etc. Deaths from infections and the rates of infections themselves fall off a cliff. Antidepressants are developed and introduced and widely prescribed. As are mental health therapies across the board and the public are made aware of the whole mental illness issue. Mental illnesses go up to the level of near epidemic? Does. Not. Effin. Compute.

GP's are handing out antidepressants the way they once handed out antibiotics and they were on the fence qualified to be dosing the general public in both cases. We view the wholesale application of antibiotics with more than a little WTF today, but go back twenty years and you'd be branded a quack for suggesting it was wrong headed. Many were. Yet throwing SSRI's at people is fine? MMMMkay.

mzungu wrote: »

Never said otherwise, though. How is not wanting to date somebody because they have mental illness any different from not wanting to date them due to not being attracted to them?

Exactly. I mean if a woman said she'd not date an alcoholic(a mental illness) I'd not flip my shizzle about it and few would as she would have more than a good reason to not.

zcorpian88 wrote: »

She's with a another guy now, God help him! Doesn't know what he's in for.

Indeed. I've seen my(and others) exes move on to the next guy(or gal in a couple of cases) and the pattern repeats just as night follows day. The honeymoon period of hiding the crazy stuff varies, but yea, there may be a variance in the tempo and tune, but the lyrics remain.

I would have a caveat to all this though. It's very age dependent. IE someone who may have gone off the rails in adolescence can often, if not usually be perfectly grand later on. Someone at 18, even 25 isn't set in stone. I've known men and women who went mentally off piste in such circumstances(and few of us don't as adolescents) but are great people later on. Beyond 30? The only thing that will change IMH and IME is their ability to hide the crazy for longer.

zcorpian88

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. I've seen my(and others) exes move on to the next guy(or gal in a couple of cases) and the pattern repeats just as night follows day. The honeymoon period of hiding the crazy stuff varies, but yea, there may be a variance in the tempo and tune, but the lyrics remain.

I would have a caveat to all this though. It's very age dependent. IE someone who may have gone off the rails in adolescence can often, if not usually be perfectly grand later on. Someone at 18, even 25 isn't set in stone. I've known men and women who went mentally off piste in such circumstances(and few of us don't as adolescents) but are great people later on. Beyond 30? The only thing that will change IMH and IME is their ability to hide the crazy for longer.

My ex actually told me when we started off first that all her relationships never last beyond 2 years (I wonder why), We were about 3 and a half months off the 2 year mark when I walked out in a crazy sleep deprived huff over the BS that was our last weekend, I'd never treat a partner like that whether I was depressed or not, I still don't get that really, just because you're depressed doesn't you can't think or use your head and think about someone elses feelings. I don't think I've ever felt that unwanted, not thought of, undesired or rejected in my life, it's a really s**t feeling to get from someone I pretty much never took for granted the whole time.

As far as I know my ex changed as a teenager, she was adopted, met her biological mother as a teenager, she was a drug addict and the town slut in her youth (her words not mine) and she had a lot of issues in regard to her and she has pretty much shut her out, whenever she was in her down moments, she'd bring up her biological mother, I did try and help her with it but like I'm no shrink. I did feel in over my head when she started talking about her. She was never off the rails as like a misbehaving teenager but she did have depression since then I know for a fact, but early in the relationship, it wasn't really showing, she was pretty happy go lucky and that side of her I loved, wasn't till we were a little more than a year in where her condition and her work started to really wreck things.

As for the new guy she's with, she's been with him since June last year, so I'll give it till either November when the guy will tire of her working all the time and on the cold dark evenings where all he'd want is to cuddle and watch a movie (and might lead to more...) but the laptop isn't getting put away, definitely one of my pet peeves, when you put on a movie to watch and the person spends the movie's length looking at a phone or a laptop, drives me mad! I'll give it till April at the latest and it'll end in tears.

She had the cheek to bring him to my locality for a comedy festival a few months back too, when it's my birthday she won't make a trip but when there is a few mediocre overpriced comedians in town she's down like a light, and hangs out with friends of mine!

Two of which didn't like the new boyfriend and both went out of their way to message me just to say so, apparently "he hasn't much credibility and not much between the ears" according to one, and the other guy drunken messages me and said "You're way better than her new boyfriend, way more awesome you are" which I have to say made me feel better while I avoided town like the plague so I wouldn't have to bump into her.

La.de.da

So if you go into a new relationship and your new partner now is well but has been mentally ill let's say with proper anxiety in the past( and knowing it may well resurface sometime as it does) that's a deal breaker? ?

I find that a bit sad. Are you not basing on past experience, offsetting to a bad outcome when the new one could be completely different.

zcorpian88

La.de.da wrote: »

So if you go into a new relationship and your new partner now is well but has been mentally ill let's say with proper anxiety in the past( and knowing it may well resurface sometime as it does) that's a deal breaker? ?

I find that a bit sad. Are you not basing on past experience, offsetting to a bad outcome when the new one could be completely different.

I think most people can live with being with someone with anxiety, my ex had anxiety and depression,her anxiety attacks weren't that bad, she tended to get them in crowded places or on a hot day would set it off, only thing you can do is let the person ride it out and give them space and don't crowd them, it wasn't terrible but it did make the odd night out suck because I couldn't take her to places I liked if there was a big enough crowd in there. Going out in the sun on a 20 something degree day was a hassle too and going by her thought process going anywhere near the equator for a holiday was out of the question too and I had to settle for Edinburgh twice for a break away.

Her depression played a huge part in driving me away more so than anxiety, just made her not in the mood for anything...a walk on a fine day, not going to restaurants or a bar, not wanting to watch a movie at home or the cinema, no intimacy or sex for that matter. When you're a mid 20's couple and one person is being such a buzzkill with basic things in the relationship yeah it becomes a deal breaker when all you do is compromise for your partner until there is nothing left.

GingerLily

You're very hung up on this ex!

You talk about her in a multitude of threads, it's a bit scary......

zcorpian88

GingerLily wrote: »

You're very hung up on this ex!

You talk about her in a multitude of threads, it's a bit scary......

Well someone brought up going out with someone with a mental illness, shared my own experience, even if yeah the discussion kind of went off topic.

No need to be scared, it's my underlying bitterness talking but if my bitterness enlightens or benefits someone else, so be it.

GingerLily

zcorpian88 wrote: »

GingerLily wrote: »

You're very hung up on this ex!

You talk about her in a multitude of threads, it's a bit scary......

Well someone brought up going out with someone with a mental illness, shared my own experience, even if yeah the discussion kind of went off topic.

No need to be scared, it's my underlying bitterness talking but if my bitterness enlightens or benefits someone else, so be it.

It ended up more like a general rant about your ex......again.......

zcorpian88

GingerLily wrote: »

It ended up more like a general rant about your ex......again.......

Rant or not her illness is part of the story and how it affected the relationship and the conversation somehow steered towards mental illness, to be honest I don't know how this illness side of the discussion was allowed to go on so long without a mod telling us to whisht or any other poster wanting to steer it back to this being about dating someone that's unemployed. Anyway I'll take it back to the subject at hand.

To be honest going out with somebody that is unemployed doesn't bother me, we have a lot of intelligent people in this country that are stuck in a rut and can't gain employment for all sorts of bollocksology and can't gain a date because of this stigma we've gained from celtic tiger silver spoon yuppie types that tar everyone with the same brush and claim that only useless people aren't working. People seem to forget the country they live in and where and what they came from.

FURET

I'm married now, but no, I wouldn't date someone who was long-term unemployed for any reason.

• As stated upthread, I want a certain standard of living and dating an unemployed person makes that very unlikely due their likely inability to afford the things that I'd like to do with a partner, in terms of travel, eating out, etc.
  
• If the unemployed person was unemployed due to an illness - physical or mental - that would also count against them. There are so many healthy potential mates to choose from. Naturally once feelings and loyalty develop, the impulse is to care for your mate when they are unwell - but this thread is about the first interactions, before those feelings develop.
  
• Finally, employment often indicates a healthy work ethic and attitude. *Long-term* unemployment does not.

I also wouldn't date someone who had a lot of debt or who was comparatively uneducated or unskilled. Sorry!

** My wife is now a stay-at-home-mother and I have to say, she works harder than I do.

Pawwed Rig

People seem to be confusing mental health issues with being a major frigging drama queen. They are completely different things.
I can see why being in a relationship with an afflicted individual would be difficult. It is an emotional roller coaster but can definitely be worth it in the long run.
Being with a drama queen has the former without the pay off of the latter.

Elliott S

mzungu wrote: »

Never said otherwise, though. How is not wanting to date somebody because they have mental illness any different from not wanting to date them due to not being attracted to them?

Well, the big glaring difference there is attraction. (if you are attracted to someone who turn out to have mental health issues, that is) So, um, that's how it's different. Your question contains the answer!

Elliott S

Wibbs wrote: »

Antibiotics are developed and introduced and widely prescribed. As are antibacterial therapies across the board and the public are made aware of contamination etc. Deaths from infections and the rates of infections themselves fall off a cliff. Antidepressants are developed and introduced and widely prescribed. As are mental health therapies across the board and the public are made aware of the whole mental illness issue. Mental illnesses go up to the level of near epidemic? Does. Not. Effin. Compute.

GP's are handing out antidepressants the way they once handed out antibiotics and they were on the fence qualified to be dosing the general public in both cases. We view the wholesale application of antibiotics with more than a little WTF today, but go back twenty years and you'd be branded a quack for suggesting it was wrong headed. Many were. Yet throwing SSRI's at people is fine? MMMMkay.

Comparing them to antobiotics just doesn't fit.

Firstly, GPs in Ireland don't give antidpressants out willy nilly. And any doctor who has prescribed them to me made it clear that they would only be part of the solution if they did work.

Secondly, the reason why giving out antibiotics indiscriminately was so terrible was because the indiscriminate prescription of same led to hastened resistance of microrganisms to them. And you're wrong. I recall twenty years ago as a young teen being confused about the giving out of antibiotics for viruses. Our own family GP was very careful prescribing them. People were well aware that this was wrong twenty years ago and probably longer ago. Even so, the problem bears little comparison to overprescription of antidepressants, which is not something every doctor practices anyway.

What do you suggest are the macro effects of overprescription of antidepressants that makes it as damaging as bacterial resistance to antimicrobials? Bacterial resistance to antimicrobials means potentially (and it's a very real possibility) returning to a time when people again die of simple infections, of things that they really shouldn't be dying of.

I think your conclusion that mental illnesses are skyrocketing in tandem with antidepressant prescription is something that may not bear up to scrutiny. Correlation not indicating causation springs to mind there. Whereas antimicrobial resistance is very much measureable. And I'm not convinced that people are happily boarding the good ship Mental Illness either. I can certainly see a small minority of self-absorbed knobs doing so but if it's not this it would have been something else. Epidemic level? C'mon, that is complete hyperbole. And again, someone mentioning a mental health issue in public is not necessarily delighting in it. They might be mentioning it as unremarkable like, say, having diabetes or something. "Oh, I'm diabetic", Yeah, I have Crohn's", "At the moment, I'm recovering from clinical depression". I don't know why only one of those would be considered attention-seeking. Or any of them. People should be able to mention it, but as of now, people in general won't IMO and IME. If they do mention it, it will either be in an unremarkable way or as a source of shame. And this thread nicely illustrates why. Oh and disregarding someone with narcissistic personality disorder is different because that person probably can't be cured and won't give a sh1t about anyone but themselves so it wouldn't make much of a relationship. Someone with narcissistic personality disorder and someone with depression are not remotely comparable.

La.de.da wrote: »

So if you go into a new relationship and your new partner now is well but has been mentally ill let's say with proper anxiety in the past( and knowing it may well resurface sometime as it does) that's a deal breaker? ?

I find that a bit sad. Are you not basing on past experience, offsetting to a bad outcome when the new one could be completely different.

+1

Elliott S

FURET wrote: »

As stated upthread, I want a certain standard of living and dating an unemployed person makes that very unlikely due their likely inability to afford the things that I'd like to do with a partner, in terms of travel, eating out, etc etc

If you became unemployed, would you be fine with being dumped if you could no longer meet that standard of living yourself? I'm sure you'll say you'll never be unemployed but as I have stated a few times on-thread, one never knows. The thread is mostly about first impressions and dating, yes, but surely if we're talking about wanting a certain standard of living and not wanting less than a certain standard, then become unemployed during a relationship would be an issue too?

Also, I should bloody hope the "impulse" would be there to care for someone who you love who is unwell. That goes without saying. Or at least should go without saying.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

People seem to be confusing mental health issues with being a major frigging drama queen. They are completely different things.

Thank you. This is what I'm driving at. And the rest of your post too.

philstar

is it the illness or the unemployment thats bugging you OP ???

*apologies if that has been covered already but i couldn't arsed reading over 11 pages

FURET

Elliott S wrote: »

If you became unemployed, would you be fine with being dumped if you could no longer meet that standard of living yourself? I'm sure you'll say you'll never be unemployed but as I have stated a few times on-thread, one never knows. The thread is mostly about first impressions and dating, yes, but surely if we're talking about wanting a certain standard of living and not wanting less than a certain standard, then become unemployed during a relationship would be an issue too?

I have been unemployed in the past, for around 6 months I think. I think everyone understands that it's normal to be between jobs at some point. And that's fine. If you're already in a loving relationship with someone, and your partner becomes unemployed or sick, naturally you will do your best to be the best partner possible to your mate, to support them and help them as far as is reasonable.

But when I am looking for a new mate, I have learned through experience to apply a set of filters; in no particular order she should be smart and ambitious and interesting and in good health and be a good budgeter and have a comparable sex drive and she should be self-sufficient and demonstrate that all of this is so.

I want to point out that this wouldn't have been my viewpoint when I was in my 20s. Back then I was more idealistic and all-round less choosy. I agree with the others that the notion of "saving" someone, or of ignoring factors that are bound to be irritating or constraining or less than ideal as the relationship develops, has gone out the window. I pursued a long-term unemployed single mother with no higher education for around a month when I was 25 because she was pretty and it felt ennobling. I wouldn't do that now and I'd counsel that any young man with prospects and ambition shouldn't either.

By the way, I'm sure I wouldn't get past a lot of women's filters too - I'm 5'8 and bald and have no real inclination towards athleticism, for example. I can't help that but I'm sure these things outside of my control have turned oceans of women off me down through the years based on nothing but appearance.

Elliott S

philstar wrote: »

is it the illness or the unemployment thats bugging you OP ???

*apologies if that has been covered already but i couldn't arsed reading over 11 pages

EDIT: Nevermind, I only saw the OP bit after! Thought you were asking me, as I was the last poster.

Well, I've realised both probably are, depending on the post. Does it have to be one or the other? I'm not against someone finding bone idleness a turn-off, by the way, and I believe I have already said that on-thread. Somebody not making a huge effort to find work is unacceptable. And I don't believe being depressed stops someone from working either. In fact, in my experience, getting out working can aid recovery from depression. That happened to a friend of mine.

It's just, many people never can seem picture themselves becoming unemployed but in reality many people are caught unawares like that. Employed one day, not employed the next. For a variety of reasons. And even with massive effort, it can take a while to get back into the workforce and standard of living can drop drastically in that interim period. So I'm interested in someone mentioning standard of living and what happens if their standard of living must necessarily drop for a while.

Elliott S

FURET wrote: »

I have been unemployed in the past, for around 6 months I think. I think everyone understands that it's normal to be between jobs at some point. And that's fine. If you're already in a loving relationship with someone, and your partner becomes unemployed or sick, naturally you will do your best to be the best partner possible to your mate, to support them and help them as far as is reasonable.

But when I am looking for a new mate, I have learned through experience to apply a set of filters; in no particular order she should be smart and ambitious and interesting and in good health and be a good budgeter and have a comparable sex drive and she should be self-sufficient and demonstrate that all of this is so.

I want to point out that this wouldn't have been my viewpoint when I was in my 20s. Back then I was more idealistic and all-round less choosy. I agree with the others that the notion of "saving" someone, or of ignoring factors that are bound to be irritating or constraining or less than ideal as the relationship develops, has gone out the window. I pursued a long-term unemployed single mother with no higher education for around a month when I was 25 because she was pretty and it felt ennobling. I wouldn't do that now and I'd counsel that any young man with prospects and ambition shouldn't either.

By the way, I'm sure I wouldn't get past a lot of women's filters too - I'm 5'8 and bald and have no real inclination towards athleticism, for example. I can't help that but I'm sure these things outside of my control have turned oceans of women off me down through the years based on nothing but appearance.

Yes, there's nothing at all wrong with being choosy. I'm just interested how in reality something like employment might affect a relationship when standard of living is a big factor. For example, someone might be out of work for far longer than six months even with a massive effort to recover from illness or to secure new work. If a very high standard of living is important to you, surely you'd start to become resentful?

FURET

Elliott S wrote: »

Yes, there's nothing at all wrong with being choosy. I'm just interested how in reality something like employment might affect a relationship when standard of living is a big factor. For example, someone might be out of work for far longer than six months even with a massive effort to recover from illness or to secure new work. If a very high standard of living is important to you, surely you'd start to become resentful?

I think this comes under the category of slings and arrows to be honest and any couple should be prepared for that. I mean, I am 33, my wife is 34, and we have an infant. We were both aware at the outset of our marriage that it is a marriage for better or for worse. But we actually prepared for the worst, just in case. So we worked together, as a team, using both our resources to build up an emergency fund to sustain us through a hypothetical rough patch. We also have excellent insurance should the worst happen.

And if life still knocks us for six, we can both look at each other and honestly say we each did the best we could to prepare, even if it wasn't enough in the end, and say "I trust you and you trust me - so let's put our shoulder to the wheel and survive this thing and try to emerge all the stronger as a couple for it". But the key thing is the mutual effort and unified perspective at the start. We both gave 100%, as it were, to avoid the hardship. There was no disparity in the effort to avoid it.

anewme

FURET wrote: »

I have been unemployed in the past, for around 6 months I think. I think everyone understands that it's normal to be between jobs at some point. And that's fine. If you're already in a loving relationship with someone, and your partner becomes unemployed or sick, naturally you will do your best to be the best partner possible to your mate, to support them and help them as far as is reasonable.

But when I am looking for a new mate, I have learned through experience to apply a set of filters; in no particular order she should be smart and ambitious and interesting and in good health and be a good budgeter and have a comparable sex drive and she should be self-sufficient and demonstrate that all of this is so.

I want to point out that this wouldn't have been my viewpoint when I was in my 20s. Back then I was more idealistic and all-round less choosy. I agree with the others that the notion of "saving" someone, or of ignoring factors that are bound to be irritating or constraining or less than ideal as the relationship develops, has gone out the window. I pursued a long-term unemployed single mother with no higher education for around a month when I was 25 because she was pretty and it felt ennobling. I wouldn't do that now and I'd counsel that any young man with prospects and ambition shouldn't either.

By the way, I'm sure I wouldn't get past a lot of women's filters too - I'm 5'8 and bald and have no real inclination towards athleticism, for example. I can't help that but I'm sure these things outside of my control have turned oceans of women off me down through the years based on nothing but appearance.

Agree with this 100%.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

Antibiotics are developed and introduced and widely prescribed. As are antibacterial therapies across the board and the public are made aware of contamination etc. Deaths from infections and the rates of infections themselves fall off a cliff. Antidepressants are developed and introduced and widely prescribed. As are mental health therapies across the board and the public are made aware of the whole mental illness issue. Mental illnesses go up to the level of near epidemic? Does. Not. Effin. Compute.

GP's are handing out antidepressants the way they once handed out antibiotics and they were on the fence qualified to be dosing the general public in both cases. We view the wholesale application of antibiotics with more than a little WTF today, but go back twenty years and you'd be branded a quack for suggesting it was wrong headed. Many were. Yet throwing SSRI's at people is fine? MMMMkay.

I believe there is a particular western malaise with regards to what I call small d "depression". People who suddenly find the pressures of life upon their doorstep, where they never had a single worry before, are unable to cope with even the most mediocre of issues and collapse into a self obsessed mess. Little Johnny and Tina who have been told all their lives that they're "special" and that they can have everything they want suddenly realise one day that they aren't and they can't and they go to pieces. This is exacerbated by the psychiatry industry, who since the 70's have been more about medicalising mental problems, rather than discussion therapy, because the pharmaceutical companies realised they were onto a handy number manufacturing psychotropics for people who, by and large, simply need to discuss the life problems to find a solution. These are handed out like smarties and the person with, usually a conquerable problem, is left popping pills to "cure" the ailment.

That's not to say that Clinical Depression doesn't exist, of course. It does. But it affects far fewer people than current impressions would have you believe. Most people who claim "Depression" are "depressed" (small d), in that the are down because of the general problems we encounter in life these days. These problems are made worse by this bullshit, Americised, notion that there are "winners" and "losers" in life and that if you aren't getting everything you want in life, you're somehow not doing it right.

The reality, however, is that there's no such thing as "winners" or "losers" and we're all heading for the same prize in the end. The only difference is when that end comes and whether you go into the ground or up in smoke.

The idea of "goals" and "ambition" and all that other bollocks puts incredible and unnecessary pressures upon people - even at an early age - and are largely the cause of this small d "depression" that is so prevalent in western societies these days. People seem to believe that they have to attain certain "things" by certain "stages" in life in order to be considered a "success" and it's a complete fallacy.

I know more people that claim "depression" today than ever before and these are people that have things easy. It's almost like every second person I meet nowadays has some sort of "disorder" or has been to a "shrink".

There are people that have lived through wars that have a better and more balanced and realistic outlook on life.

Sleepy

Elliott S wrote: »

Right, but not all people with mental health issues don't want to help themselves. Some are working on it and succeed. So to blanket disregard people is callous.

Not wanting to date someone is not the same as disregarding them. Like most, I have good friends who suffer from various mental health conditions, I care about them greatly but I'd never want to date any of them. To use an analogy: I'd have no problem being friends with a girl I considered fat but I certainly wouldn't want to date her (were I single).

It seems as if you're living in a fantasy Disney-esque world where the only thing that should matter to someone when selecting a new partner is how "nice" they are tbh. Physical appearance, health (mental or otherwise), financial or social status, education and past behaviour have been the main determinants in what humans find attractive for millennia. I really can't see that changing because it'd be nice to live in a "fair" world where the only thing that mattered was how "nice" you were.

Olishi4

Elliott S wrote: »

Well, the big glaring difference there is attraction. (if you are attracted to someone who turn out to have mental health issues, that is) So, um, that's how it's different. Your question contains the answer!

Ye I think in real life that people generally look at the person overall and that paints a picture. I'm sure that it would be fairly hard to meet someone who hasn't had a rough patch at some stage in their life especially if you're talking after 30s. It seems like people have these set lists of things they want in a partner but realistically no one will meet all the requirements. And often you find the complete opposite is what you like. I think that can be why online dating can be hard for some because they are really just putting up restrictions based on an ideal and then when they "match" with that ideal, it often doesn't work out.

I understand that if you meet someone and start seeing a pattern in things they are saying or doing, then you might feel it's best to walk away or maybe you just feel that you don't really like them that much but I wouldn't have these set rules like height, salary etc no one is perfect and if you are a good match with someone, you kind grow a bit together. If it turns out that you don't then you took a risk and it didn't work out. That's kind of what relationships are about, taking a risk on someone and hoping it works out for the best. You can still do that at your own pace.

Op, you only mention that you are out of work due to illness and there's no other information so it's hard to just go with that. I'd say though, try not to get too bogged down or let those things define you as a person. It could be that you are placing too much emphasis on those things to yourself and others and that might make it seem like you are not ready for a relationship. If you genuinely feel ready for something then maybe make a conscious effort to let people see and recognize your other qualities too

Sam Kade

Back2work wrote: »

Would any guy date a woman who has been out of work due to illness. This woman is looking for work, but hasn't dated a guy in 3.5yrs as thats the amount of time she was not working

If you call men guys why don't you call women gals?

Elliott S

Sleepy wrote: »

It seems as if you're living in a fantasy Disney-esque world where the only thing that should matter to someone when selecting a new partner is how "nice" they are tbh.

Eh, no, just no. Let's just leave it at that.

One thing I have to ask. How do you reconcile being a bit overweight yourself (as you mentioned upthread) with not even considering an overweight woman? If you were single, would you be OK with someone disregarding you for the same reason? It's always something that interests me. People having standards in others that they don't maintain themselves.

Elliott S

Olishi4 wrote: »

Ye I think in real life that people generally look at the person overall and that paints a picture. I'm sure that it would be fairly hard to meet someone who hasn't had a rough patch at some stage in their life especially if you're talking after 30s. It seems like people have these set lists of things they want in a partner but realistically no one will meet all the requirements. And often you find the complete opposite is what you like. I think that can be why online dating can be hard for some because they are really just putting up restrictions based on an ideal and then when they "match" with that ideal, it often doesn't work out.

Agreed. I've know people who avoid pursuing relationships with people with what they perceive as baggage whilst being absolutely laden down with the stuff themselves. And bemoaning their singledom at the same time.

Permabear

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FURET

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I have read your posts on this topic with interest Permabear and I fully understand that nothing in life is certain, or black and white. My revelation was that I needed to filter.

I mentioned shoulders to wheels earlier, in the context of a couple working through challenging times together, as a team. The crux of the post was that the wheel was a shared burden - it was their wheel.

Contrast that with a guy who is on his second or third date with a girl he barely knows and he finds out that she is unemployed, mentally ill, or both. I hold that he's well within his rights to say to himself "jeez, that's quite a wheel you're pushing there" (i.e. the wheel of mental illness or unemployment) and decide he doesn't want to join in the pushing of it. Most men are not invested enough at this point to want to do that. Of course whether or not he even sees these issues as wheels at all will depend on his perspective. He may decide he likes her enough to get over the challenges, but he should not be made to feel guilty for deciding he'd rather bail out, which seems to be the position of some posters here.

Sleepy

Elliott S wrote: »

One thing I have to ask. How do you reconcile being a bit overweight yourself (as you mentioned upthread) with not even considering an overweight woman? If you were single, would you be OK with someone disregarding you for the same reason? It's always something that interests me. People having standards in others that they don't maintain themselves.

Re-read my post, I actually worded it quite carefully: "a girl I considered fat". I (and medical science) would draw a distinction between overweight and obese and while I can certainly feel physical attraction to a women who, like myself, is carrying a few extra pounds. I wouldn't be able to for a woman who was obese or what I would consider to be "fat". I do remember a moment during a sun holiday years ago when a friend of mine who happens to be extremely fit commented that the girl I was chatting up was "carrying a few pounds" and seeing the light bulb moment in his expression when I replied that the same could be said of myself.

I find the same thing interesting tbh. You'd often see people, mainly women IME, who'd disregard a man / woman as a potential partner because they didn't have a "good" job while they wouldn't exactly have a career, or high earning job, themselves. Or you'd often see single mothers who won't date a man because he's a single father etc... People often seem to have double standards when they're one of the parties being compared!

Wibbs

Elliott S wrote: »

Comparing them to antobiotics just doesn't fit.

Firstly, GPs in Ireland don't give antidpressants out willy nilly.

Again in my experience they do. Many GP's are scarily quick to pimp the anti depressants and the vast majority of GP's are not qualified enough to do so. Looking around at friends, family and acquaintances it wouldn't be far off half that have been offered them by their GP and about a fifth are on the things. Now it's quite likely me being the overlapping common factor is driving these people mental, but... I've also noted that they're far more likely to fire them at women than men. Over prescription of this class of drugs is a very popular topic on the table of discussion within the medical field and has been for years.

Secondly, the reason why giving out antibiotics indiscriminately was so terrible was because the indiscriminate prescription of same led to hastened resistance of microrganisms to them. And you're wrong. I recall twenty years ago as a young teen being confused about the giving out of antibiotics for viruses. Our own family GP was very careful prescribing them. People were well aware that this was wrong twenty years ago and probably longer ago.

So? You had a somewhat enlightened GP. The facts are that widespread indiscriminate prescription of antibiotics and yes even up to the present day with some has caused equally widespread resistance.

I think your conclusion that mental illnesses are skyrocketing in tandem with antidepressant prescription is something that may not bear up to scrutiny.

No. I am not suggesting antidepressants are increasing the levels of mental illnesses. Indeed I would believe they have far smaller clinical effects than claimed or widely believed and quite the number of hard science studies, inc the drug company's own, shows this. I am suggesting that the medical net has been spread wide and we are diagnosing conditions that quite simply don't exist or would otherwise be temporary blips that would resolve without treatment. Labeling people can then act as a kind of reverse negative CBT that makes them actually unwell. That and there's a huge amount of bad science all the way up to actual quackery in the game. For a more severe example of this BS look to the US of A where one in ten are medicated and that rises to one in four women. Hell, some young american boys are sent to therapy and "mindfulness" sessions and even prescribed drugs because they're acting like young boys always have(which tends to confuse and upset the helicopter mammies involved, some of whom seem to want gelded quasi girls who aren't messy, but with boys names).

Someone with narcissistic personality disorder and someone with depression are not remotely comparable.

Clinically perhaps. I have found one commonality all too often present, to some degree at least; self absorption.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

People seem to be confusing mental health issues with being a major frigging drama queen. They are completely different things.

Again P, I have found quite the bit of overlap.

I can see why being in a relationship with an afflicted individual would be difficult. It is an emotional roller coaster but can definitely be worth it in the long run.

Yeah, you see P, that's what I mean. Arsed I couldn't be anymore with the emotional rollorcoaster. It's damned wearing and one feels like a father/shrink/confessor/nurse. Great if that oils your axle, but not me. I'm retired. Don't get me wrong I have been with women with different health problems and cool beans. We all have our quirks, but the mental health stuff? Never again. As I said it's like living with a grenade with the pin out. You know it's going to go off, but you're not sure when and how big the blast will be.

Elliott S wrote: »

Well, the big glaring difference there is attraction. (if you are attracted to someone who turn out to have mental health issues, that is) So, um, that's how it's different. Your question contains the answer!

I prefer and am attracted to thinner women. If I was going out with someone who gained a load of weight and it wasn't for an actual medical reason it would put a big strain on things and I'd likely call quits. Well I know I would, I have.

Sleepy wrote: »

Not wanting to date someone is not the same as disregarding them. Like most, I have good friends who suffer from various mental health conditions, I care about them greatly but I'd never want to date any of them. To use an analogy: I'd have no problem being friends with a girl I considered fat but I certainly wouldn't want to date her (were I single).

Exactly. I'd be thinking along similar lines over mental illness, long term unemployment and the like. There would want to be strong extenuating circumstances for me to sideline my concerns.

Diemos

It would not be a show stopper but experience has taught me to be wary of any girl who gives up her independence, be that financial, relationships, friendships or accommodation, etc..

Elliott S

Sleepy wrote: »

Re-read my post, I actually worded it quite carefully: "a girl I considered fat". I (and medical science) would draw a distinction between overweight and obese and while I can certainly feel physical attraction to a women who, like myself, is carrying a few extra pounds. I wouldn't be able to for a woman who was obese or what I would consider to be "fat".

Oh, OK. Understood. For me fat is overweight and above, it didn't occur to me that one would only consider someone fat if they were obese.

Elliott S

Wibbs wrote: »

Clinically perhaps. I have found one commonality all too often present, to some degree at least; self absorption.

Oh ok, so they're only clinically vastly different. Is that all? I thought there was some compelling reason for them to be considered very different but we're only talking clinically different.

Putting depression down to self-absorption. Oy. Well, I can agree with you, you shouldn't become involved with some who might be depressed any time soon. And you're not going to. That's a good thing.

Maguined

Wibbs wrote: »

Again in my experience they do. Many GP's are scarily quick to pimp the anti depressants and the vast majority of GP's are not qualified enough to do so.

From personal experience I have to agree with Wibbs on this one. A couple of years ago I had medical symptom/scare that resulted in some tests being done that could not find anything so I was told to carry on as normal. A couple of months later I went to my GP as I told him I was not feeling great over all as I was constantly tired and lethargic and I asked if this was a continuation of the previous issue I had. The doctors response was to ignore the previous issue completely and diagnosed me as depressed so gave me a prescription for anti-depressants and sent me on my way.

I went back after a month as my prescription was finished and I told him I did not want to take them anymore as they made me feel worse rather than helping. 6 months later my original issue came back with a vengeance. Rather than paying any attention to my concerns and a prexisting condition the GP's first response was to give out anti-dpressants and ignore the real issue.

Permabear

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Olishi4

I suppose i can understand that if you have a past bad experience that you would be reluctant to enter into that again.

My oh has a relative who was married to a woman with diagnosed bipolar disorder and his personality mixed with hers was a nightmare. I think he wanted to fix her where as she was more in acceptance of her illness. They are both married to other people now. The man she is with now suits her personality more and works better with her personality and this has improved how she deals with her illness too. They seem happy.

I think that if her first husband heard of a prospective partner having that type of illness then he probably would run because he only has his past experience to trust and he knows that he is not good for a person with that illness and she would not be good for him and more than likely there would be a personality clash.

Permabear

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Wibbs

Elliott S wrote: »

Putting depression down to self-absorption. Oy.

No. I said I found self absorption to be a common symptom of both. To claim it's not a common symptom of the condition would be head in the sand time.

Elliott S

Wibbs wrote: »

No. I said I found self absorption to be a common symptom of both. To claim it's not a common symptom of the condition would be head in the sand time.

I wouldn't put self-absorption down as a definite depression symptom at all actually. To think it's a constant of true depression is to greatly misunderstand the condition.

Wibbs

Elliott S wrote: »

I wouldn't put self-absorption down as a definite depression symptom at all actually. To think it's a constant of true depression is to greatly misunderstand the condition.

For fun and games google "self obsession and depression". Ii's most certainly one of the symptoms.

mzungu

Elliott S wrote: »

Well, the big glaring difference there is attraction. (if you are attracted to someone who turn out to have mental health issues, that is) So, um, that's how it's different. Your question contains the answer!

You go on a date with a bloke who you don't find attractive - Chalk him down in the no box. That's A OK. Personal preference and all that.

You go on a date with a bloke who has a mental illness - You chalk him in the no box, you just don't need that at this time in your life. That's also A OK.

Everybody has different reasons for not being attracted to somebody, or reasons why if they are attracted to them, that they still do not want to embark on a relationship.

Not wanting to embark on a relationship with somebody is a personal choice. Why should not wanting to get involved with somebody will mental illness be worthy of ones distain?

Would you date an alcoholic/drug addict?

Elliott S

Wibbs wrote: »

For fun and games google "self obsession and depression". Ii's most certainly one of the symptoms.

It *can* be a symptom. Any depression symptoms checklist will say you *may* experience some of these symptoms, not *will*. There is no checklist that will definitively say that you will definitely experience certain symptoms. Wibbs, my earlier assessment was right, you are really displaying your ignorance here. Wilfully, I would say. For what reason, I don't know.

Potatoeman

Elliott S wrote: »

It *can* be a symptom. Any depression symptoms checklist will say you *may* experience some of these symptoms, not *will*. There is no checklist that will definitively say that you will definitely experience certain symptoms. Wibbs, my earlier assessment was right, you are really displaying your ignorance here. Wilfully, I would say. For what reason, I don't know.

I can understand it is hard to hear but it would be a huge red flag for many people. Especially these days where people have far more options.

intheclouds

This thread is a great example of why a stigma still exists around mental health issues in this country.

Some of the opinion being spouted as fact is unbelievable.

Shint0

As somebody who has experienced both sides of the coin I can absolutely say that in some cases it can be extremely draining to be around certain people with mental health difficulties. I think so much so that in my case in order to protect and manage my own mental health I had to cut out certain people out of my life because their preoccupation with their own mental health was having a detrimental effect on mine.

I still struggle with certain difficulties but I did go through a journey of trying to learn various coping mechanisms that work for me to try to keep depression at bay and I no longer take antidepressants. I have always been so conscious of not wanting to let my struggles impact on others because I have been exposed to the effects of other people's mental health problems on me.

While you can be supportive and show compassion and understanding nobody should be expected to be a sponge to just absorb other people's difficultues, a position which I found myself in lots of times and made to feel guilty for trying to think of my own needs and my own health. So I absolutely understand if some posters here like Wibbs who have had very negative experiences would draw the line and say enough is enough. Not going down that road ever again. I wouldn't take offence at that.

zcorpian88

Shint0 wrote: »

As somebody who has experienced both sides of the coin I can absolutely say that in some cases it can be extremely draining to be around certain people with mental health difficulties. I think so much so that in my case in order to protect and manage my own mental health I had to cut out certain people out of my life because their preoccupation with their own mental health was having a detrimental effect on mine.

I still struggle with certain difficulties but I did go through a journey of trying to learn various coping mechanisms that work for me to try to keep depression at bay and I no longer take antidepressants. I have always been so conscious of not wanting to let my struggles impact on others because I have been exposed to the effects of other people's mental health problems on me.

While you can be supportive and show compassion and understanding nobody should be expected to be a sponge to just absorb other people's difficultues, a position which I found myself in lots of times and made to feel guilty for trying to think of my own needs and my own health. So I absolutely understand if some posters here like Wibbs who have had very negative experiences would draw the line and say enough is enough. Not going down that road ever again. I wouldn't take offence at that.

Agreed, draining is the perfect word, it is like you are going out with someone who has a split personality, in my case anyway it was like going out with the perfect person and I relate in every way with her and she puts in as much as into the relationship as me, then a bad spell would happen out of nowhere and anything can set it off, and that's it then for a few weeks straight where I'd put in the same amount of effort while she won't budge on her end.

It gets to a point where your mind floats between questions like "Is it her depression or is she gone off me? and "what did I do to deserve the cold shoulder?" and I'm going over things in my head wondering did I do something wrong and I know well I didn't. It is very mentally tiring trying to prop somebody you love up and get the person you fell for back,

Eventually something gives way when so much time goes by and you realize it's been so many weeks since you smiled or were really happy in general and you realize it's been so many weeks (or longer) since you done something nice/enjoyable/satisfying with your partner and you know the direct causes of it and you've gone through every avenue to make those things happen. What could you do but end it, when you're going out with someone who has a mental illness, especially depression, those two people are living "a half life" at best, and it's the one person that isn't helping themselves enough that is making that happen and it drags the whole thing down.

I've become a far more cynical/defensive person as a result of the whole thing.