Discovery of extra land on registry map!

cormie

Hey folks,
My friend is in the final stages of purchasing a house. While with the solicitor, they noticed 2 extra bits of land that appeared to be within the outline of the main property while looking at the registry maps. It's a little hard to explain, but the two sections are extended beyond the wall of one side of the garden. Checking the various satellite imagery sites, it appears there's a shed built in each section, one for each of the two neighbours who's land is also next to the section on the map.

So perhaps the map is wrong and the outline is incorrect, or that because the two sections extended behind these other gardens, that some kind of deal was done where the then occupier of the property my friend is buying, decided to wall off the garden at a point that would allow the two other neighbours build a shed on the land.

From the layout of the map and properties, it wouldn't be surprising to learn it was an error on the map. The solicitor she was dealing with was enthusiastically explaining they could look into it, until the owner of the firm came into the room and dismissed the idea saying it would be a waste of time that if the land has been in use by other neighbours for a number of years, my friend would have to take them to court and probably wouldn't stand a chance and it would end up costing loads in legal fees at the same time.

Of course, my friend doesn't want to be causing any trouble being new to the area, but feels that if it's possible they may be entitled to more land with the sale, then of course they'd like to explore the possibility of getting ownership of this if the circumstances allow for it.

Are there often such errors on registry maps? Also, my friend is keen to sort this out before the sale goes through, I'm saying not to bother worrying about it now, just do what's necessary to complete the sale and then if desired, they can follow it up at a later date. Would something like this need to be dealt with before a sale goes through, or could it be addressed at a later date with no more complications than there would be now?

Any feedback or advice on any of the above would be great!

4ensic15

There are many errors in land registry maps. The Land Registry is always at pains to point out that it does not guarantee the maps are accurate. The digitisation of maps has had the effect of showing erroneous boundaries. What the purchaser needs to do is ask the vendor for a certificate of identity.

cormie

Thanks a lot for the reply. What's a certificate of identity? Is it standard enough for a vendor to be able to produce this on request?

What if the land is indeed belonging to the property but has been in use for several years by the neighbours? Is there a stage at which there's no hope for reclaiming it and would there be any less hope of pursuing this at a later stage as opposed to now before the sale goes through? If there was no disadvantage to waiting, this would be preferable so that the sale can go through as smoothly and as soon as possible.

ted1

Could they ask the seller ?

cormie

Do you mean for that certificate of identity thing too or just to see if the seller knows? It's a bank sale so wouldn't be a case that the seller has been living there for 40 years and knows what the history.

Just to note also, the outline on eircode doesn't include the 2 bits..

CruelCoin

cormie wrote: »

So perhaps the map is wrong and the outline is incorrect

To me this is the most likely explanation.

The road i work on is a dead straight line. Yet, when i drive up it, my cars sat-nav map, which is derived from the council maps, places me going cross country as i come to the end of that road, where it think the road terminates is around 150m away from where it actually does!

Council maps can be and often are wrong.....

pacelut

Hi Cormie,

People often mistake the red line on the Land registry maps as the correct, on the ground, boundary line.

Land Registry (or PRAI as they call themselves today), states:

"The registry operates a non-conclusive boundary system.
The Registry Map identifies properties not boundaries meaning neither the description of land in a register nor its identification by reference to a registry map is conclusive as to the boundaries or extent. (see Section 85 of the Registration of Title Act, 1964). As inserted by Section 62 of the Registration of Deed and Title Act 2006."

In other words, the red line on the map just highlight the property, not the boundary.
Also, on a 1:2500 scale map, 1mm on that paper (roughly the thickness of the red line) is 2.5 meters on the ground.

Any competent land surveyor (not engineers or architects - no offence to any of them) should be able to give you more info.

cormie

Thanks a lot for that! Is there a difference between a land surveyor and who would carry out a property survey in terms of building work, plumbing, electrics etc? My friend is thinking they might have to get another survey done.

If it was discovered that the land is actually under the ownership of the property but has been built and used by neighbours for years, then what would the course of action be then and how likely would it be that ownership would be granted to my friend after buying I wonder?

antoinolachtnai

I think your friend's solicitor has given a pretty good assessment of the likelihood of success. He obviously has access to all the papers and all the facts and also benefits from being an experienced professional with a relevant qualification. I don't think anyone here is going to second guess that assessment. We can't say whether he is right of course but if it was me I would be inclined to be happy with that advice.

I don't see why this should delay anything. It would be different if the case was the other way round of course, ie the map showed that your neighbour owned a critical piece of the property.

Of course it is up to your friend and his solicitor. If he decides to take action, it is going to delay a lot of things.

In these days of heady property prices it is easy to overestimate the value of land under a garden shed. In and of itself the land is worth very little. There is only a small pool of potential buyers. And if you got it, You could put a shed in it and that's probably about it. About all this is good for is a row with neighbours. You don't want to end up like poor Pat Kenny, Gerard Charlton and their famous Battle for Gorse Hill (http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/battle-for-gorse-hill-to-cost-kennys-up-to-2m-26437604.html)

pacelut

Hi Cormie,

Only a solicitor can tell you what is the best way to proceed.

Regarding the survey of the land being done by an architect or a building surveyor, land surveying is a different profession. Would you get your house electrics done by the plumber? Why people will get the most tangible and (sometimes) most valuable asset, measured and certified by a non measurement professional (aka engineers, building surveyors, architects) I don't know.

riclad

The land under a shed would not be worth going to court over .especially if
its on the edge or in a corner of the site .
my friend has a terraced house ,theres no map with the deeds ,
The back garden is enclosed by 3 walls about 12 ft high .

murphaph

Unfortunately the system in Ireland is not very sophisticated. It is not cadastral in nature like many other places so it's just not very accurate at all.

riclad

i owned a house, the edge of the site 2ft by 20ft was owned by the neighbour next door,
it did not stop me selling the house.
the 2ft strip was my side of the fence .
i did not mention it to my solicitor ,

cormie

Thanks a lot for the continued input folks! I think my friend will be putting this on the long finger for now, assuming whether they act on it now or in a years time will have the same end result and there's no difference whether it's done pre or post sale.

What is quite strange however, is that the solicitor is now telling my friend they need to get a land survey done in order to send on to the bank?? This was never mentioned until now, until my friend was enquiring about the extra land. There was no mention of a land survey from the vendor, from the bank or from the solicitor at any stage leading up to this.

Is this a common request from a solicitor or could there be some other reason they are requesting this all of a sudden?

wench

The solicitor is also acting on the bank's behalf, and must give them assurance of good title.
If he now knows of a potential problem/dispute down the line, he needs to follow it up.