5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

blacklilly

livedadream wrote: »

to say i am trying to lesson his actions by using a commonly known term to me and my peers, is not only disgusting but it speaks more for you than me. I have said it a few times so try reading and understanding this, i do not condone what he did.

your speculating that he didnt love them which is as ridiculous as it is offensive to their remaining family and friends.

there is a reason it is judged differently in court, your failure to see that does not change the fact that murders differ, manslaughter, self defence, crime passionnel, murders of revenage.

no you are. i didnt say anything like that. so stop twisting my words or making **** up to suit your own agenda.

again your suggestion is abhorrent, and ignorant, you are taking out, stress and a potential mental illness. NEVER did i say his wife or children pushed him to this.

again your speculating so much its disgraceful, no one can confirm if there were written before he hanged himself or after. or before he murdered his sleeping children. stop speculating.


now what you have posted is **** stirring to the highest order and im not engaging with you anymore, its pathetic if you cant discuss it like an adult dont bother, twist my words all you like but, i wont say it again. i am not condoning what he did. its unthinkable.

I am discussing this like an adult and I'm not **** stirring. I don't come on boards.ie to **** stir. My time is more precious then to engage in that.

If you are unable to converse on this matter that's your own decision to make. If you've a problem with my posts report them.

Thanks

Mary63

It was premeditated and it happened just before he went back to school.Did something happen in his professional life.I think the contents of the note he wrote should be made public.This incident has terrified many women up and down the country and before anyone jumps down my throat most of these family murders are committed by men.It could happen to any of us and in this case there appear to be no warning signs.

He planned this because he knew if he didn't turn up for the school meeting he would be missed.If he had done it any other time the family could have lain there dead for much longer.He knew his MIL was arriving so he warned her in the note not to enter the house.He put the note on the back door and not the front because only his MIL would have gone to the back of the house.He wouldn't have out the note on the front because he might have been disturbed before he managed to hang himself.

None of this sounds to me like a deranged person on the loose,he gave those poor people an awful death.Why are theses cases increasing year on year.This will be another one thats hushed up now in deference to the family and we will be none the wiser as to what causes this utter horror.

I hate even posting this but he could have sedated his family and smothered them in their sleep.He went from room to room with a hatchet.

No one saying he was a good man has a clue what they are talking about.Why not just say we didn't know this man at all really and we can't believe what he was capable of.

Jamobmac,it would be really clear you hadn't committed suicide if the back of your head had met with a hatchet.Dont be so obtuse.There were five people found dead in that house and only one by hanging.

JamboMac

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Who do you think, Professor Plum in the Library?

I don't know, I don't know the people or the family dynamics although some of you's seem to have great insight on little evidence and have solved the crime in minutes.

Zubeneschamali

JamboMac wrote: »

I don't know, I don't know the people or the family dynamics although some of you's seem to have great insight on little evidence and have solved the crime in minutes.

Check the statements from the Gardai. They are treating it as murder-suicide, they are not looking for anyone else in connection etc.

I see Hitler has even got a mention in this thread now. Impressive.

JamboMac

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Check the statements from the Gardai. They are treating it as murder-suicide, they are not looking for anyone else in connection etc.

So no it has not been confirmed yet, just because the gardai made a statement instantly how their treating it doesn't mean things don't change. The weirdest thing I find is allegedly it was a relative who found the note on the back door not gardai.

livedadream

Mary63 wrote: »

It was premeditated and it happened just before he went back to school.Did something happen in his professional life.I think the contents of the note he wrote should be made public.This incident has terrified many women up and down the country and before anyone jumps down my throat most of these family murders are committed by men.It could happen to any of us and in this case there appear to be no warning signs.

He planned this because he knew if he didn't turn up for the school meeting he would be missed.If he had done it any other time the family could have lain there dead for much longer.He knew his MIL was arriving so he warned her in the note not to enter the house.He put the note on the back door and not the front because only his MIL would have gone to the back of the house.He wouldn't have out the note on the front because he might have been disturbed before he managed to hang himself.

None of this sounds to me like a deranged person on the loose,he gave those poor people an awful death.Why are theses cases increasing year on year.This will be another one thats hushed up now in deference to the family and we will be none the wiser as to what causes this utter horror.

I hate even posting this but he could have sedated his family and smothered them in their sleep.He went from room to room with a hatchet.

No one saying he was a good man has a clue what they are talking about.Why not just say we didn't know this man at all really and we can't believe what he was capable of.

Jamobmac,it would be really clear you hadn't committed suicide if the back of your head had met with a hatchet.Dont be so obtuse.There were five people found dead in that house and only one by hanging.

can everyone get a grip of themselves and stop speculating.

there is an ongoing investigation and comments like women up and down the country are terrified are just ridiculous.

Mary you have no idea what your talking about and speculation like this doesnt help anyone.

im not backseat moderating it just people asking that this families private business be made public is ridiculous, that letter doesnt need to be release because it doesnt make a difference, you have come to your own conclusions as we can all read above. you talking about how he could have done it differently like? seriously?

Zubeneschamali

JamboMac wrote: »

The weirdest thing I find is allegedly it was a relative who found the note on the back door not gardai.

Why would the Gardai be checking the back doors of random houses in Ballyjamesduff for notes?

The grandmother finding the note is how she knew to call the guards in the first place, because the note told her not to go in, to call the guards.

demfad

There is a full analysis from the same Adams study where both types of family annihalator are analysed from the possessive viewpoint:

Possessive Beliefs as Contributing Factor in IPH/Suicides
Adams study (in-depth interviews with 31 killers and 20 victims of attempted
homicide):
78% of killers fit Possessively Jealous Profile; 30% fit Depressed/Suicidal Profile
Factors for Jealous and Suicidal Types:
Possessive beliefs, leading to increased jealous monitoring and stalking over time
Despondency/depression that stems from, or is aggravated by, victim resistance
and estrangement
Substance abuse, often exacerbating jealous behavior and despondency
Unemployment, which is often result of stepped up surveillance, stalking and
threats (quitting job to have more time for stalking)
Revenge motive, according to victims of attempted homicide:
– 95% 'to punish me'
– 72% 'to make me suffer'
– 68% 'to win'
– 54% 'if I can't have you, no one else will'
– 54% 'to hurt me as much as I hurt him'

Shame: Your suggestion that he is so ashamed to tell his kids that he kills them instead is ludicrous. According to the document, the 'shame' is due to loss of social status, or a breakup, a financial crises, he feels like a failure. It's the end for him, but it's not his fault. Someone will pay, someone will hurt, someone will suffer. He'll write a note explaining everything.......

Mary63

It was his MIL who had made an arrangement to mind the children who found the note Jambomac

The murders were planned and executed at the time he as Vice principal was expected in school.He knew his MIL would be there at a particular time and he didn't want anyone else to see the note,that was why it was put on the back door.He had to put that note on the door just prior to him hanging himself,any earlier and he could have been disturbed.

He thought it all through.

Im looking at my Dh,I don't mind admitting it liveadream and thinking are you capable of this too.Im not in an abusive relationship but these murders have shown me none of us are safe and neither are our children,not even when they are in bed feet from me.

I can only imagine how women who are living with unstable violent men feel,they are probably terrified to take any steps to safety knowing that his could happen to them.Some of them are probably being told on a daily basis what will happen in graphic detail and thats why they stay in abusive controlling relationships.

Wigglepuppy

Mary63 wrote: »

This incident has terrified many women up and down the country

Really?

I cannot understand why some folk are just unwilling to consider the possibility that he did this due to psychosis. As I said already, I know a man - the loveliest guy when on his meds - who has set fire to his home when off his meds because of hearing voices.

It is not a defence or exoneration of him just to suggest (not to state as fact) that it might have been due to mental breakdown. He does not deserve to be pitied, his sons and wife do. But if people who knew him say he seemed lovely, maybe he did, and maybe people are just saying it because they are so baffled.

Mental breakdown does not prevent people from being calculated either - this is a misconception. Plenty of suicides are calculated to an intricate extent.

Or maybe he was an evil, abusive monster with nothing at all wrong with him mentally.

But either way, we don't know, and I don't know what people are basing statements of fact on.

livedadream

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

But either way, we don't know, and I don't know what people are basing statements of fact on.

but i read it on the internets...

so it must be true.

at the end of the day his own mother in law made the decision they would all be buried in a family plot, thats not the action of a woman who's child and grandchildren were being abused by a ''violent, controlling brute'' as Pecker posted.

people can speculate all they want but (or not as this thread would have it) at the end of the day 5 lives ended that day and many more were effected. its a tragedy and more needs to be done in this country to protect and service/support people who need it.

but if you going to go spouting nonsense you read from Facebook or that Peejay the voice of 'cork' spouted try to remember that Ireland is small, and have some goddamn respect for the people that died and the families and friends they left behind.

kfallon

livedadream wrote: »

at the end of the day his own mother in law made the decision they would all be buried in a family plot, thats not the action of a woman who's child and grandchildren were being abused by a ''violent, controlling brute'' as Pecker posted.

Maybe she didn't know what was going on behind closed doors? You're speculating that she would have known, stop speculating, no more speculation please, oh the speculating........

livedadream

kfallon wrote: »

Maybe she didn't know what was going on behind closed doors? You're speculating that she would have known, stop speculating, no more speculation please, oh the speculating........

thats not speculation, thats a fact, they are being buried in the family plot, the final decision was made by Clodaghs mother.

they released a statement/made the comments to shut up the nonsense being peddled online.

Ken.

Mod-Mary63 do not post in this thread again.

kfallon

livedadream wrote: »

thats not speculation, thats a fact, they are being buried in the family plot, the final decision was made by Clodaghs mother.

they released a statement/made the comments to shut up the nonsense being peddled online.

But you were speculating that the mother would definitely know if he was a 'controlling brute'.....she might not have known at all!

Wigglepuppy

demfad wrote: »

And men are 9 times more likely to commit murder don't forget that one, thats a biggie.

Can we get your honest substantiated opinion why the figure is so high in this case for familicide (95%)? Do you agree thats important to get to the bottom of that figure to work out why?

Do you disagree with the conclusions from testimonies from actual cases of familicide that a pattern of male entitlement and a proprietary attitude to a partner is always present? (explaining the high value) If so why?

What can we do as men to address this?

Wo, what are all the questions being fired at me for? Of course this issue needs to be examined - and is being examined by research constantly. What do *you* suggest men (rather than people in general - specifically those with such a responsibility) do to address this issue? I don't know why men are more likely to kill, overwhelmingly so familicide. Nothing I have said contradicts this though, or the figures you quote. All I've said in a nutshell is that while you have reason to strongly suspect in relation to this man, you do not have reason to state facts as to what he was like building up to the awful event, and you do not know that it wasn't mental breakdown. Even if it was, he is still the one to blame, it's not taking blame from him to consider the possibility.

Chuchote wrote: »

Can I use your vote, please?

Ah here, being critical of feminism today does not mean not agreeing with the original women's rights movement!

Degringola

errlloyd wrote: »

Apologies for multiquoting like this, I know it makes for a painful read.



Whether or not it is a flaw in our perception of this depends whether the murder stems from the suicide or the suicide from the murder. Those two things are different - and we don't know which this is yet. If a person kills their entire family in a fit of rage, and then in the post incident guilt kills them-self then you are completely right.

However what I think probably happened (and I am speculating), is that the man wanted to kill himself, but could not deal with the shame of abandoning his family. In the powerpoint you linked he is quite clearly the "Civil Reputable Type" - which importantly does not contain any of the possessive stuff which affects the majority of cases.

1. No prior violence toward partner
2. Mostly middle class and above
3. 83% committed suicide
4. Social conformists but often feel like failures
5. Engage in impression management
6. Feel humiliated due to divorce and/or loss of job/status
7. Acute emotional isolation, latent despondency
8. Sometimes kills for ‘altruistic reasons’, (e.g. concern for future of their families)

Until you can give me the evidence that in this situation he harboured a despicable attitude to this family before this happened than I can't comment. I can't say "statistically speaking he was this". Based on the comments of his mother in law in particular I find it hard to believe he was abusive in his home.



I've never been seriously suicidal. I have never been homicidal and I don't have any family of my own. My own experience on this matter is purely what I have gleamed from taking care of friends and loved ones who were in very bad places.

I never said I could easily see myself harming someone, and I never said I owned anyone, or I had the right to take their life.

I understand this issue is quite emotive for everyone invovled, but I would prefer if you didn't take such an accusatory tone. By answering this post I want it to be very clear that I am willing to elaborate on what I said in my post, but I am not agreeing at all with what you interpreted I meant.

Firstly I believe that when someone is at the depths of suicidal thought they no longer value life at all. They don't understand why anyone would want to live. What they are experiencing is the highest level of pain people can experience.

For many people (and I know people who were like this), the one that prevents them committing suicide is their duty towards dependents. I believe in many of the cases where a suicidal person kills their dependents it is because it frees them from that responsibility.

Finally (and this is also stated in that powerpoint). For many it is also shame. They'd rather a million strangers thought they were a murderer, than their own children realising their weakness. Shame prevents them getting help. Shame makes them suicidal. And shame makes them homicidal.

I believe this situation is different from many murder suicides. In many I believe a possessive husband (mostly) or wife (sometimes) murders their spouse and then commits suicide so they don't have to deal with the consequences. They were homicidal first and were potentially never suicidal, they just did it. We know quite a lot about this type of murder suicide because some of the perpetrators are still alive, because their suicide attempt failed. We know very little about the other type of murder suicide - and I believe there is every chance this is one of them.


I feel uncomfortable writing more on this. I am not a psychologist. Maybe if the note comes out we will know more, but I would like to finish on this.

He hung himself. No person strings up a rope, stands on a chair, puts their head in a noose a kicks away unless they are in some way a victim.

A thoughtful post, but a major stumbling block for me in showing any understanding for this man's actions is the method of killing he used. To me it smacks of pure homicidal rage. I can't get past that.

Tasden

Degringola wrote: »

A thoughtful post, but a major stumbling block for me in showing any understanding for this man's actions is the method of killing he used. To me it smacks of pure homicidal rage. I can't get past that.

Or an urgent impulsive act, possibly during an episode of some sort. The note may have been written after that, in preparation for his own suicide after facing what he did. We don't know the details, but reading into the information we have been given is not going to confirm anything. For every piece of information we have there are a million different possible answers/explanations we can arrive at. The only thing we can all be sure of is that it was horrific.

ofcork

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes but has there been reports on the relationship in the house? Its almost like noone is considering that he could always have been violent and controlling inside the house because wasnt he the local gaa treasurer

Some guy emailed a cork radio station today with those sentiments.

Wigglepuppy

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes but has there been reports on the relationship in the house? Its almost like noone is considering that he could always have been violent and controlling inside the house because wasnt he the local gaa treasurer

Except of course all of those people, like the majority on this thread, who ARE considering he could always have been violent and controlling inside the house. What's the "Almost no one" nonsense about?

ofcork wrote: »

Some guy emailed a cork radio station today with those sentiments.

Lots of people have those sentiments. Saw that email myself posted here on Boards - totally speculation presented as fact, based on people's suspicions on social media.

ofcork

If the note never gets published it will never be known why it happened like other cases.

Wigglepuppy

zcorpian88 wrote: »

Discuss...

http://theliberal.ie/cavan-tragedy-relatives-insist-all-five-members-of-the-hawe-family-will-be-laid-to-rest-together-and-describe-alan-hawe-as-a-brilliant-dad/

I don't think there's anything wrong with chastising him, but the family know better than any of us. Maybe he was abusive and hid it extremely well though.

But alternatively, remember that man in Castleknock who just turned on his landlord after a game of chess and butchered him to death? Psychosis causes such horrors and I thought people were more aware of this.

IvyTheTerrible

I just can't reconcile him being a "brilliant dad" and the fact that he killed his children. I have the utmost compassion for people with mental illness but that's something that doesn't square with me.

Summer wind

A brilliant dad does not hack his little sons to death with a hatchet.

whiskeyman

zcorpian88 wrote: »

Discuss...

http://theliberal.ie/cavan-tragedy-relatives-insist-all-five-members-of-the-hawe-family-will-be-laid-to-rest-together-and-describe-alan-hawe-as-a-brilliant-dad/

theliberal.ie?
Not a chance am I clicking / reading that crap.

captbarnacles

ofcork wrote: »

If the note never gets published it will never be known why it happened like other cases.

Even if it gets published we probably won't know. If he's done this for selfish reasons he won't be spelling that out to his family.

zcorpian88

I believe he was a different person than his family make out to be, people can be very closed off and unstable on the inside but carry off what society believes is normal. It's like that saying "It's always the quiet ones that mind their business" He just had some psychotic break and snapped out of it enough to write that note before doing away with himself.

Horrific story all the same, I do think the media have really botched the reporting of the story, the murderer gets more coverage than the victims, he doesn't deserve all the coverage he's getting. Burying him with his family is pretty f**ked up whether he was psychotic/insane or not.

Yeah I never liked the liberal myself, I just spotted it and was like "Jesus, brilliant Dad?"

Wigglepuppy

The family are referring to the way they saw him before the awful events I suppose.

Whiskeyman, theliberal.ie sure is rubbish usually but that piece is just a short report, not an opinion piece.

captbarnacles

It's not unusual for family members to deny a close relation committed a crime or to minimise it even when the proof is unassailable. I'd imagine it's incredibly difficult to face up to the fact the person you thought you knew committed an unspeakable crime. Much, much easier to put it down to psychosis or depression etc.

kittensmittens

I know its the liberal.ie but that article made me a bit sick tbh. I get that the family must be going through a very difficult time but it came across as them totally defending him and almost "don't say a bad word about our boy, d'ya hear me?"
They unfortunately dont get to call how the public will feel about him having murdered his wife and their 3 children.

Wigglepuppy

captbarnacles wrote: »

It's not unusual for family members to deny a close relation committed a crime or to minimise it even when the proof is unassailable. I'd imagine it's incredibly difficult to face up to the fact the person you thought you knew committed an unspeakable crime. Much, much easier to put it down to psychosis or depression etc.

Could be the case too.

demfad

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Really?

I cannot understand why some folk are just unwilling to consider the possibility that he did this due to psychosis. As I said already, I know a man - the loveliest guy when on his meds - who has set fire to his home when off his meds because of hearing voices.

It is not a defence or exoneration of him just to suggest (not to state as fact) that it might have been due to mental breakdown. He does not deserve to be pitied, his sons and wife do. But if people who knew him say he seemed lovely, maybe he did, and maybe people are just saying it because they are so baffled.

Mental breakdown does not prevent people from being calculated either - this is a misconception. Plenty of suicides are calculated to an intricate extent.

Or maybe he was an evil, abusive monster with nothing at all wrong with him mentally.

But either way, we don't know, and I don't know what people are basing statements of fact on.

The only facts we know is that this man butchered his family in cold blood then took his own life. We don't know if the primary goal here was to murder his wife or if the primary goal was his own suicide.
We can only speculate on his motives based on what the police have told us and based on historical cases of murder/suicides.
Your continued assertions of psychosis amount to wild and frankly insulting speculation. We need to be honest here. Be honest.

demfad

livedadream wrote: »

your speculating that he didnt love them which is as ridiculous as it is offensive to their remaining family and friends.

Your speculating that he did love them is what is offensive. Explain how you can kill the woman you love with a hatchet and then stab the children you love to death with various knives (more than one was used).?

there is a reason it is judged differently in court, your failure to see that does not change the fact that murders differ, manslaughter, self defence, crime passionnel, murders of revenage.

It's murder. The only difference is the coward wont be there to answer for his crimes. Do you actually believe that killing a family member in cold blood is judged differently in court than other murders?

again your suggestion is abhorrent, and ignorant, you are taking out, stress and a potential mental illness. NEVER did i say his wife or children pushed him to this.

Are you speculating that stress mixed with mental illness was what drove him to this murder? Can you substantiate this viewpoint?

again your speculating so much its disgraceful, no one can confirm if there were written before he hanged himself or after. or before he murdered his sleeping children. stop speculating.

It was confirmed that he wrote the notes. How could he possibly write them after he hanged himself?

Wigglepuppy

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

I don't think there's anything wrong with chastising him, but the family know better than any of us. Maybe he was abusive and hid it extremely well though.

But alternatively, remember that man in Castleknock who just turned on his landlord after a game of chess and butchered him to death? Psychosis causes such horrors and I thought people were more aware of this.

Apparently, it's very rare to suddenly develop a psychotic illness in middle age. And because the person believes their paranoia is justified, or that their hallucinations are real, psychosis is almost impossible to conceal from friends and relatives. Family and friends have said they have no idea why Alan Hawe did this.

Psychosis seems like a very unlikely possibility.

Media reports say Alan Hawe left notes that portray him as feeling under-pressure with work, which might suggest a mood or personality disorder contributed to his violent actions, but there's no indication of any delusions on his behalf.

Wigglepuppy

demfad wrote: »

The only facts we know is that this man butchered his family in cold blood then took his own life. We don't know if the primary goal here was to murder his wife or if the primary goal was his own suicide.
We can only speculate on his motives based on what the police have told us and based on historical cases of murder/suicides.
Your continued assertions of psychosis amount to wild and frankly insulting speculation. We need to be honest here. Be honest.

What?

I am being honest - explain to me how I'm not? My speculation is no more wild than yours. How am I being insulting? You should try not to get so angry regarding a perfectly legitimate view just because you don't like reading it.

Wigglepuppy

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Apparently, it's very rare to suddenly develop a psychotic illness in middle age. And because the person believes their paranoia is justified, or that their hallucinations are real, psychosis is almost impossible to conceal from friends and relatives. Family and friends have said they have no idea why Alan Hawe did this.

Psychosis seems like a very unlikely possibility.

Media reports say Alan Hawe left notes that portray him as feeling under-pressure with work, which might suggest a mood or personality disorder contributed to his violent actions, but there's no indication of any delusions on his behalf.

"Apparently", "unlikely". Points taken but nothing solid there either.

I'm amazed by the lack of understanding of severe mental illness here - even when there are examples.

demfad

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

I just can't reconcile him being a "brilliant dad" and the fact that he killed his children. I have the utmost compassion for people with mental illness but that's something that doesn't square with me.

I agree. The only people who can really tell if he was a brilliant Dad were butchered by him.

I feel for people with mental illness at the moment. An added stigma on their shoulders that they could snap and mass murder at any time. Completely untrue, completely unfair.

Wigglepuppy

demfad wrote: »

I agree. The only people who can really tell if he was a brilliant Dad were butchered by him.

I feel for people with mental illness at the moment. An added stigma on their shoulders that they could snap and mass murder at any time. Completely untrue, completely unfair.

What about the man in Castleknock. Such denial.

Wigglepuppy

Nobody said whatsoever that anyone at all with a mental illness could do something so horrific.

Obviously it applies to a tiny minority - no need for the emotive guilt tripping nonsense.

rjpf1980

captbarnacles wrote: »

It's not unusual for family members to deny a close relation committed a crime or to minimise it even when the proof is unassailable. I'd imagine it's incredibly difficult to face up to the fact the person you thought you knew committed an unspeakable crime. Much, much easier to put it down to psychosis or depression etc.

Maybe you should shout that through a megaphone at the funeral. For the craic like?

demfad

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

What?

I am being honest - explain to me how I'm not? My speculation is no more wild than yours. How am I being insulting? You should try not to get so angry regarding a perfectly legitimate view just because you don't like reading it.

My opinion is based on scholarly studies on past murder/suicides from actual testimonies from other murderers who botched their suicides and from victims who survived.

Again this is based on testimonies from the mouths of murderers and the mouths of survivors. Why are you claiming this is wild speculation?

http://www.jwmag.org/document.doc?id=179

What are you basing your opinions on that you can honestly describe them as legitimate?

Nobody should be speculating on his motive. It may never become clear and we may never know anyway.

I'm sorry I posted in this thread, I was upset at the coverage glossing over the victims while bigging up the killer. I think that's a bigger issue at the moment than his motivation. No matter what drove him to kill, those kids and their mum are still dead.

It doesn't substantially matter if he was ill or if he was evil, his victims are gone forever.

Autonomous Cowherd

Candie wrote: »

Nobody should be speculating on his motive. It may never become clear and we may never know anyway.

I'm sorry I posted in this thread, I was upset at the coverage glossing over the victims while bigging up the killer. I think that's a bigger issue at the moment than his motivation. No matter what drove him to kill, those kids and their mum are still dead.

It doesn't substantially matter if he was ill or if he was evil, his victims are gone forever.

Yes, it's the saddest thing in a long time. I unfollowed the thread yesterday because it is so upsetting. I think I will do it again now. We are all bewildered. We are all groping in the dark.

mansize

zcorpian88 wrote: »

Discuss...

http://theliberal.ie/cavan-tragedy-relatives-insist-all-five-members-of-the-hawe-family-will-be-laid-to-rest-together-and-describe-alan-hawe-as-a-brilliant-dad/

Where did the liberal lift that from???

demfad

Candie wrote: »

Nobody should be speculating on his motive. It may never become clear and we may never know anyway.

I'm sorry I posted in this thread, I was upset at the coverage glossing over the victims while bigging up the killer. I think that's a bigger issue at the moment than his motivation. No matter what drove him to kill, those kids and their mum are still dead.

It doesn't substantially matter if he was ill or if he was evil, his victims are gone forever.

I understand your post. His victims are gone, but in order that they don't die in vain I think the truth about why they died needs to emerge.
If we don't know why then history is bound to repeat itself. And if society's default is to excuse a man for an action that should be vilified for his crime, then we need to change that too, if only as a deterrant to others.

Airyfairy12

Another article describing him as a brilliant dad. http://theliberal.ie/cavan-tragedy-relatives-insist-all-five-members-of-the-hawe-family-will-be-laid-to-rest-together-and-describe-alan-hawe-as-a-brilliant-dad/

Ive been in a domestic abusive relationship and I know how hard it is too get help, my abuser was well liked, great job, loads of friends and an active social life, no one believes you, they dont want to believe this seemingly 'nice' guy can do any wrong and they make you feel crazy for even speaking out or trying to get help. Ireland still has a 'what will people think' mentality. I cant get my head around why this evil man is being praised as a brilliant dad.
Families turn their backs on loved ones in crisis, ive dealt with it from my own family. Even mothers!! All theyre concerned with is protecting his name, making him look good and acting like they were a happy little family.
It just reminds of me Irelands pedophile priests being protected and glorified and 'sinful' women being hidden away subjected to a life of abuse out of the public eye. Ireland still holds this mentality which is evident in this story.

Brilliant fathers don't butcher their children. Brilliant husbands dont butcher their wives.

I find this whole thing really sick.

mansize

A full investigation needs to happen and his true motives extrapolated- eulogising him is doing a disservice to everyone

mansize

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Another article describing him as a brilliant dad. http://theliberal.ie/cavan-tragedy-relatives-insist-all-five-members-of-the-hawe-family-will-be-laid-to-rest-together-and-describe-alan-hawe-as-a-brilliant-dad/

Ive been in a domestic abusive relationship and I know how hard it is too get help, my abuser was well liked, great job, loads of friends and an active social life, no one believes you, they dont want to believe this seemingly 'nice' guy can do any wrong and they make you feel crazy for even speaking out or trying to get help. Ireland still has a 'what will people think' mentality. I cant get my head around why this evil man is being praised as a brilliant dad.
Families turn their backs on loved ones in crisis, ive dealt with it from my own family. Even mothers!! All theyre concerned with is protecting his name, making him look good and acting like they were a happy little family.
It just reminds of me Irelands pedophile priests being protected and glorified and 'sinful' women being hidden away subjected to a life of abuse out of the public eye. Ireland still holds this mentality which is evident in this story.

Brilliant fathers don't butcher their children. Brilliant husbands dont butcher their wives.

I find this whole thing really sick.

That article is from a religious right website- that regularly lifts articles from
Other sources. I wouldn't put much truck in it

mansize

Candie wrote: »

Nobody should be speculating on his motive. It may never become clear and we may never know anyway.

I'm sorry I posted in this thread, I was upset at the coverage glossing over the victims while bigging up the killer. I think that's a bigger issue at the moment than his motivation. No matter what drove him to kill, those kids and their mum are still dead.

It doesn't substantially matter if he was ill or if he was evil, his victims are gone forever.

Motive is important to prevent it happening again