5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod:

Lads, not only has that mother and child case got nothing to do with this thread, it is still in the courts and legally cannot be discussed here. Stop.



(posts have been removed)

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod:

Also, jameorahiely has been given a day off for that remark. Refrain from replying to it, thanks.

Spanish Eyes

Remember the murder of the two little girls in Ballycotton, followed by the suicide of the murderer/dad?

The mother, Una Butler allowed the father and the girls to be waked in the family home together, but the husband/dad had a separate funeral and was buried elsewhere.

A compromise for both sides in a tragic situation, but best all round I think, and I admire her so much for having the presence of mind to see it through.

She can now visit her little girls' graves in peace.

demfad

I think some posters on this thread have demonstrated just how hard it must be for an isolated women suffering domestic abuse to speak out in Ireland.

Posters who have actually read through this thread may know:

• That As a starting point, 70% of all similar cases there is a history of domestic violence. Serious mental illness accounts for 5% (as does substance abuse.)

• That the common factor in all these cases is a proprietary attitude to family, a patriarcal worldview. This major 2013 British study concluded: "The (family) annihilation makes public what had often been a private reality –a reality masked to family, friends and neighbours who often thought that this man had been a ‘doting’ and ‘loving’ father and ‘dutiful’ husband."

• That Alan Hawe showed no signs of mental illness at any time before the mass murder and its premeditation and note of explanation rules out a mental 'snap'.

• That Hawe appeared to be very religious and had a traditional, patriarcal family view according to the priest "steeped in the noble traditions of family"

• That Clodagh Hawe seemed to be unsociable, quiet, withdrawn and was never seen out without Alan, indicating potential isolation and control. Not even a photo could be found anywhere.

• That locals had commented on how quiet and private a house it was. That no-one really knew what went on inside.

• That a family relative had stated that Clodagh was known before she met Hawe as an extremely outgoing and vibrant woman, and that Hawe had been manipulative and controlling while giving the illusion of a community pillar over many years.

• That Clodagh's Mother and Sister STATED definitively that there had been abuse and domestic violence in the relationship, using those words.

(by no means exhaustive)

Everything points towards this case as being part of the 70% and nothing points away from this. Nothing.

Even with Clodagh and her 3 boys violent murder on top of all this -- posters here STILL refuse to believe her, still cast doubt, still make excuses for the killer Alan Hawe. If these people won't even believe her now what chance would she have in persuading those in awe of the local community hero back then?

Ironically, the people who are wondering why she didn't tell anyone then have demonstrated that they are the type of people least likely to have believed her.

Her family have stated that they are speaking for her now. They have stated that she suffered domestic violence and abuse silently as many tens of thousands of women and families in Ireland do. It's time we learned the lessons and listen to her now. And listen to them. We cant help Clodagh or her boys, we can help others though.

volchitsa

demfad wrote: »

I think some posters on this thread have demonstrated just how hard it must be for an isolated women suffering domestic abuse to speak out in Ireland.
...
Everything points towards this case as being part of the 70% and nothing points away from this. Nothing.

Even with Clodagh and her 3 boys violent murder on top of all this -- posters here STILL refuse to believe her, still cast doubt, still make excuses for the killer Alan Hawe. If these people won't even believe her now what chance would she have in persuading those in awe of the local community hero back then?

Ironically, the people who are wondering why she didn't tell anyone then have demonstrated that they are the type of people least likely to have believed her.

Terrific post which I haven't quoted completely as it's still just up thread, but this bolded bit seems absolutely fundamental to me.

The man deliberately murdered his wife and children, with no signs of mental illness before or during the event - and some people still don't believe that he was abusive! How much more abusive can someone be?

So what possible reason is there to think those same people, faced with a live woman wanting help to get out of a relationship wouldn't have reacted with the same scepticism? A woman who possibly hadn't ever actually been physically attacked, just said she felt scared and over-controlled by her husband : those same automatic dismissive reactions would have kicked in, and she'd have been told to think of how her children needed their father, and possibly how hard (for which read shameful) it would be to find herself a single mother etc etc.

Goya

political analyst wrote: »

I don't have an agenda. I'm highlighting the issue of double-standards. A man who commits "family annihilation", as it's called in the US, is often referred to as evil but a woman who does it is referred to as mentally ill.

Crikey. I actually see your point and I have never seen any evidence that Hawe was abusing Clodagh in the lead-up to the horror he committed (not saying he definitely didn't but there is no evidence to my knowledge) but do you really think it's appropriate to pick this thread to highlight it?

I know I'm indirectly doing so myself now, but jeez, there's a time and a place.

political analyst

I'm aware that Hawe has two brothers. Presumably, he was brought up in the same way as his brothers. So how did he turn into a monster?

The following article is from 2012:

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/56913/Windgap-hurler-Enda-is-the-toast.html

I believe that Hawe was mentally ill because the fact that the atrocity took place in the family home means that there was a much shorter period of pre-meditation than the perpetrators of the Dunblane and Sandy Hook massacres.

Furthermore, Gregory Fox, who murdered his wife and children in 2001, and Sanjeev Chadha, who murdered his sons, are definitely evil because they were weak in the methods they used in their suicide attempts. Furthermore, Chadha didn't kill his wife because he believed that she'd be too strong to overpower - underscoring his cowardice.

political analyst

Flimpson wrote: »

Crikey. I actually see your point and I have never seen any evidence that Hawe was abusing Clodagh in the lead-up to the horror he committed (not saying he definitely didn't but there is no evidence to my knowledge) but do you really think it's appropriate to pick this thread to highlight it?

I know I'm indirectly doing so myself now, but jeez, there's a time and a place.

Yes - because this thread is about the case!

volchitsa

political analyst wrote: »

Yes - because this thread is about the case!

The thread is about a man who murdered his wife and children. You chose to try to make it into a woman-bashing thread instead.

You invent a hypothetical mirror scenario in which a woman might have done exact,y the same thing (but you haven't managed to find one that is actually all that similar) and you tell us she'd have been treated better than he was.

Given that the murderer here was lionized by the press and church etc until people started objecting, it's hard to see how a woman could have got better treatment. But still, your problem here is that a woman would (you think) get better press treatment even more than Hawe did. That says a lot IMO.

political analyst

[QUOTE=volchitsa;101850092]The thread is about a man who murdered his wife and children. You chose to try to make it into a woman-bashing thread instead.

You invent a hypothetical mirror scenario in which a woman might have done exact,y the same thing (but you haven't managed to find one that is actually all that similar) and you tell us she'd have been treated better than he was.

Given that the murderer here was lionized by the press and church etc until people started objecting, it's hard to see how a woman could have got better treatment. But still, your problem here is that a woman would (you think) get better press treatment even more than Hawe did. That says a lot IMO.[/QUOTE]

That's not true.

Anything about the deliberate killing of children by one of their parents is relevant.

The press and the Church were not lionizing him. The photo of Hawe with his children was published almost immediately simply because it became available much quicker than the photos of Clodagh on her own and of the whole family.

At the funeral, the priest described Hawe's action as evil.

Nobody was making excuses for Hawe - they were simply trying to comprehend the atrocity.

I've heard of teachers abusing pupils but his occupation makes this horrific crime unprecedented in this country.

What makes this case different is that he had the delusional belief that he was protecting his family from a greater evil. If he had been a paedophile I would have said "To Hell with him!" because a paedophile's crimes are obviously evil because of sexual motivation.

Goya

political analyst wrote: »

Yes - because this thread is about the case!

It's not about women killing their families is what I meant. Nor is it about cases when women do it versus when men do it.

Hawe was spoken of extremely highly too - plenty of people were saying the very opposite to him being an evil bastard, plus plenty have speculated whether he was mentally ill.

Balagan

political analyst wrote: »

That's not true.

Anything about the deliberate killing of children by one of their parents is relevant.

The press and the Church were not lionizing him. The photo of Hawe with his children was published almost immediately simply because it became available much quicker than the photos of Clodagh on her own and of the whole family.

At the funeral, the priest described Hawe's action as evil.

Nobody was making excuses for Hawe - they were simply trying to comprehend the atrocity.

I've heard of teachers abusing pupils but his occupation makes this horrific crime unprecedented in this country.

What makes this case different is that he had the delusional belief that he was protecting his family from a greater evil. If he had been a paedophile I would have said "To Hell with him!" because a paedophile's crimes are obviously evil because of sexual motivation.

I think you'll find that the priest said no such thing at the funeral!

sadie06

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/bloody-frenzy-of-a-mother-filled-with-life-and-laughter-26408675.html

I'm not sure why nobody seems to remember this case, but as people are looking for an example of an Irish woman being the perpetrator in this sort of scenario, here it is.

Her husband claimed at the time that he knew she was under enormous pressure and not coping. I'm not sure if his attitude changed.

pilly

Why oh why do these threads always have to turn into men vs women. It's about one particular Case!

sadie06

I actually posted the above for balance. I feel every case must be judged individually.

Nekarsulm

Balagan wrote: »

I think you'll find that the priest said no such thing at the funeral!

Correct, It was not until the Months Mind that any comments with a negative connotation were reportedly made by the clergy towards the killer.

pilly

sadie06 wrote:

I actually posted the above for balance. I feel every case must be judged individually.

That wasn't particularly aimed at you Sadie, more the person who started the debate about "what if it was a Woman? " just no need for it.

political analyst

Balagan wrote: »

I think you'll find that the priest said no such thing at the funeral!

Apologies.

I didn't look at the date in the following article.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/what-alan-evil-theres-no-8967033

snowbabe

sadie06 wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/bloody-frenzy-of-a-mother-filled-with-life-and-laughter-26408675.html

I'm not sure why nobody seems to remember this case, but as people are looking for an example of an Irish woman being the perpetrator in this sort of scenario, here it is.



Her husband claimed at the time that he knew she was under enormous pressure and not coping. I'm not sure if his attitude changed.

I remember this very well,sometimes there's a background story that only becomes clear in time. The husband certainly knew she was under pressure, and also things are kept quiet to protect the children. He's doing well so I've heard.

volchitsa

According to this article, she had been treated for mental illness in the past and was under medication :

The 41-year-old mother of two, who stabbed her sons Andrew, 10, and six-year-old Glen to death before killing herself, is understood to have been treated for mental illness in the past.

Officers investigating the tragedy have removed medication from the house in Killakee Walk, Firhouse, South Dublin, and accessed medical records in an effort to piece together a motive for the killings.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/SLAUGHTER+OF+THE+INNOCENTS%3A+KILLER+MUM'S+MENTAL+ILLNESS%3B+Drugs+seized...-a0142077391

Also the woman didn't choose a completely different, less painful death than her children. So very different from Alan Hawe.

(Just for wiw, I don't think that depression alone is enough of an explanation, because lots of people have depression and nerve harm their family, but I do think it at least goes some way towards explaining such a tragedy. But there was nothing like that in the Hawe case. Nothing.)

strandroad

THE mother and sister of Clodagh Hawe have set up a crowd-funding page with the aim of helping Women's Aid, which works to end violence against women. Mary Coll and Jacqueline Connolly are aiming to raise €50,000 - that would be enough to fund the Women's Aid helpline for more than 120 days.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/warm-loving-bright-and-capable-mother-and-sister-of-tragic-clodagh-hawe-move-to-help-women-living-in-fear-35265105.html

Here's the link to the fundraising campaign - I donated to Women's Aid as well as Amen before and I'm donating again. I do hope that for someone in a situation to have access to a well staffed helpline can make all the difference.

"In Memory of CLodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan":
https://give.everydayhero.com/ie/in-memory-of-clodagh-liam-niall-and-ryan

Snugglebunnies

political analyst wrote:

If he had been abusive to them then, surely, his wife would have had ample opportunity over the years and months preceding this horrific crime to get the children and herself out of harm's way.

Absolutely not true. As a person who has experienced severe domestic abuse in the past I can tell you when someone has complete control over you it's nearly impossible to leave. I stayed for a long time to keep my baby out of harm's way of access with him if we were to break up. Everyone thought he was great. When I finally got away with my child he killed himself. That could have honestly been all of us. Me and my child had a very lucky escape.

volchitsa

I'm kind of afraid to give that a like, Snugglebunnies, it doesn't seem right somehow. But thanks for posting it, genuinely.

currants

I heard very unsavoury rumours about what Hawe was up to and why he was "under pressure". Nothing to do with money whatsoever. It could be just gossip that these murders often attract though. I'm glad Clodagh's sister and Mother have spoken out about him. Felim Kelly is an ignorant joke of a priest for pushing his agenda at the funeral. That quote about Christmas morning made me want to puke, like being some sort of victorian paterfamilias was the ideal state rather than just a licence to abuse your family freely. I thought we'd moved past the days of judging people on their bloodlines like livestock.

Snugglebunnies

volchitsa wrote:

I'm kind of afraid to give that a like, Snugglebunnies, it doesn't seem right somehow. But thanks for posting it, genuinely.

It bugs me when people think it's so easy to leave these situations.

We're still tortured by his family who are continously hauling us through the family court's. Sexual and domestic violence is not taken seriously by the court's or authorities in this country.

happywithlife

Having read several pages there in one go there's too many posts I'd like to respond to be able to quote them.
At the risk of outing myself to fellow family members *big wave to you!* I'd like to share my story of domestic abuse which helps me to understand why clodagh didn't leave and how the general public don't have a clue what goes on behind closed doors!
My mother is a narcissistic of the highest form - medics might be kind enough to say it's a mental illness. As someone who continues to live under her shadow I'd say she is just pure evil. Someone asked earlier how come Alan was so evil if he's other two brothers are not- my mother is from a family of four and her siblings are horrified at her behaviour over the years. They cannot fathom how she is as bad as she is - me and my siblings have been told several times over by aunts etc that they don't know how we are all as sane as we are - I credit this this to my late grandmother who put herself mentally physically and emotionally between us kids and my mother's abuse at a great personal cost to herself. They were all reared in the same manner but looking back now they can point to occassions in her young childhood where even then she displayed narrisstic traits.
Whilst we have all moved away now and cut her from our lives as best we can our Father continues to live with her keeping up the pretense of happy lives. He has a protection order in place (gotten in a time of crisis during which he feared for his safety) but refuses to use it when she uses / threatens violence and/or psychologically abuses him. He is isolated from his friends as is not allowed out without her. He has no financial independence as she controls all his finances including his pension. In spite of several of his children offering him a home he will not leave. For several reasons. He firmly believes he made his bed and must now lie in it. He cannot comprehend life without her. He is extremely passive and 40 odd years of abuse has meant he has zero self belief in himself.
We feel we have done what we can - we are in contact with his gp and expressed our concerns. We have encouraged him to get the protection order. We encouraged him to get control of his pension so he'd have financial independence. All with little success. The guards are sick of us at this stage. They do not see or more likely don't have the resources to adequately help him. In an ideal world I'd like that once somebody makes a step like getting a protective order that a local community guard would then be assigned to call on a weekly basis- it would check the safety of the person involved but more importantly would build a relationship with the victim that over time might give them the strength to enact their protection order and get out of their hellhole of a life.
We know my mother will ultimately kill my father - either literally or figuratively with the stress he endures every day. We have discussed the burial situation between ourselves and under no circumstances will they be buried together. He may then have the peace he so desperately craves.
I feel for Clodagh's family in all of this. I always think in Ireland we are far too quick to bury people- especially in times of a sudden death. Three days to wake them organise a funeral and Bury them gives absolutely no time to process what is happening. I hope Alan's body is exhumed and that her family may feel they've given some peace back to her.
Nobody truly understands domestic violence unless they have lived through it. It is incomprehensible that one would stay with an abusive partner but until you witness first hand the utter destruction of a person's self worth and belief that they can survive without the abuser it is so easy to ask "why didn't she leave him?"
I do not know what the solution is but perhaps I've helped someone to understand domestic abuse a little better. Remember the tag line you don't need a bruise to be abused and keep nan eye on your loved ones.

Spanish Eyes

@happywithlife.

A very sad, but true post. And from the perspective of a female abuser too.

I have a friend (female) who is being emotionally and financially abused by her husband, but not physically. She cannot leave because she has not got one cent to her name.

I have offered financial help and assistance with women's aid, but she is just too worn out, down trodden, no self esteem, she is lost and in a hole, and cannot get out. Not that she won't leave but, she, in her own mind cannot. She just doesn't see how she will ever be able to live without him, not in a loving sense, but she is totally controlled.

I see her once a year. He drops her off and picks her up at set times. She is fidgeting an hour before pick up time. Jesus.

Anyway. As someone else said, it's not always visible bruises.

Fakediamond

Thank you, happywithlife, for sharing your story. I have a family member in a marriage with a female abuser like your mother. It tormented me for years and I would actually dream that he would leave her. I have now accepted that he won't, and I just keep my distance to be honest, it's too painful to hear him being constantly belittled, in a "jokey" manner, when other people are present. Most of their friends and family members stay away for the same reasons, and thieir social life is non-existent, so it's just the two of them now, she's driven off everyone else. I do my best to be a support to their children, who have been psychologically affected but are now grown and doing ok, to varying degrees.

The more light we shine on this issue, the better the understanding of the dynamics of abuse, I hope. It's shocking how little some posters seem to know about this shadowy world of control and manipulation that goes on behind closed doors. Sometime its so subtlety done that you doubt it yourself, even when witnessing it. It took me years to name it in my own head, I just thought she was one of those women who "wore the trousers" in the relationship, as they say, but I know better now.

The more it's discussed and highlighted, the more our politicians and legislators will be forced to sit up and take notice. The law is too weak to protect victims at present, or is not being properly enforced by Gardai, who won't take action unless the victim makes the complaint herself. It needs to be much more robust and supportive to break the cycle of domestic abuse. Media campaigns to highlight and explain the signs would also be helpful to both victims and their families and friends.

HS3

volchitsa wrote: »

According to this article, she had been treated for mental illness in the past and was under medication :



Also the woman didn't choose a completely different, less painful death than her children. So very different from Alan Hawe.

(Just for wiw, I don't think that depression alone is enough of an explanation, because lots of people have depression and nerve harm their family, but I do think it at least goes some way towards explaining such a tragedy. But there was nothing like that in the Hawe case. Nothing.)

How is she different from Alan Hawe? I remember this case very well and referred to it previously in the thread. It was horrendous. The shock throughout the community was huge. It may not have reached the rest of the country in the way the Hawes did, but I dont see a difference at all.

volchitsa

The differences I see - and which are already mentioned in the post that you quote - are that she was already known to have had mental health issues, and there was medication removed from the house which the guards appeared to feel may be related to her actions. Alan Hawes had no record of mental health issues, and none of the close family knew of any. So no gradual descent into such a bad state that his whole family might seem better off dead or whatever.

That leaves the possibility of a sudden and unpredictable catastrophic mental breakdown during which his grasp of reality could be altered - but in that case how could he have managed to remain sufficiently aware of things that he could leave a coherent message not to come in, and various letters "explaining" his actions.

I've had personal experience of a family member suffering paranoia and hallucinations - there was never any danger of her attacking anyone, though she did in the end kill herself, and very horribly. Compare that to Hawe, who ensured that his own death was relatively painless, unlike his children's and his wife's. And again, compare that to the lady you're talking about, where she cut and stabbed self to death. Not the same as my relative, but horrible all the same, and significantly, much the same as how she killed her children.

No, Hawe was a man who was in control right to the end. He wasn't mad, just evil. I've no idea whether he abused them before he murdered them, but those who know more about these things have made a convincing case that he probably did - but unfortunately I do know something about mental health and suicide, and I'm certain that Hawe was aware of his acts when he committed them.

bigpink

They have come out in the media this week with an interview and have started a fundrising campaign also.Guess they are fightibg back

Ya the fundraising page is here

https://give.everydayhero.com/ie/in-memory-of-clodagh-liam-niall-and-ryan

political analyst

tanko wrote: »

Really???
There's a court case going on in Cavan at the moment where a school principal of a national school admitted defrauding school funds of more than €77,000 over a sixteen month period.
He cancelled the schools meal programme saying that a department of social protection grant had been stopped. However, the money had not been stopped and he took it.
He also spent €66,000 on a school credit card, including money on lavish weekend breaks and expensive golf equipment.
He's being treated very leniently by the courts also.

According to this week's edition of The Anglo Celt (the story isn't available on the website), the former principal pleaded guilty and the judge gave him more time to pay the fine. The case has been adjourned until the new year.

lillycakes2

Why was he about to fall from Grace ?

iguana

Snugglebunnies wrote: »

I stayed for a long time to keep my baby out of harm's way of access with him if we were to break up.

I think this is frighteningly common. I know more than one woman making the choice to stay in a bad relationship (with emotionally, financially and occasionally physically abusive alcoholic/drug addicts) because leaving will mean sending their child/ren back into an unsafe environment every week or two. Staying in the relationship means being able to never, ever leave their child alone with an addict, leaving, genuinely puts the child's health and life at risk.

Snugglebunnies

iguana wrote:

I think this is frighteningly common. I know more than one woman making the choice to stay in a bad relationship (with emotionally, financially and occasionally physically abusive alcoholic/drug addicts) because leaving will mean sending their child/ren back into an unsafe environment every week or two. Staying in the relationship means being able to never, ever leave their child alone with an addict, leaving, genuinely puts the child's health and life at risk.

If you say anything about fearing for you're children in court you're labeled as the spiteful mother.

Mortpourvelo

8mv wrote: »

That article does not mention the Haugh case - you are mistaken or trying to be deliberately misleading.

Neither, I didn't say it was about the Hawe (correct spelling) case.

It was an example of the fluffy nonsense spouted about a murderer.

Thumpette

Looks like another murder of a child today in London before his mother also killed her self. It sounds like they were struggling financially etc, but I'll never understand how that can end their child's life.

https://www.facebook.com/Independent.ie/posts/10154892254328470

Some bizzare comments on the article including this one....

'Walk a mile in her, shoes ,I'm sure he was happy going to sleep with his mam,so why separate them now in death.. Be kind for the family's sake st least 😢'

The kid was happy being killed by his mother? 🙄

demfad

Thumpette wrote: »

Looks like another murder of a child today in London before his mother also killed her self. It sounds like they were struggling financially etc, but I'll never understand how that can end their child's life.

https://www.facebook.com/Independent.ie/posts/10154892254328470

Some bizzare comments on the article including this one....

'Walk a mile in her, shoes ,I'm sure he was happy going to sleep with his mam,so why separate them now in death.. Be kind for the family's sake st least 😢'

The kid was happy being killed by his mother? 🙄

This thread is about the particular Brutal mass murder in Cavan. If you feel this particular case is relevant to that then maybe explain why?

Thumpette

demfad wrote: »

This thread is about the particular Brutal mass murder in Cavan. If you feel this particular case is relevant to that then maybe explain why?

While I don't disagree that maybe it would be better with a thread by itself, I think it's fairly clear why it is relevant to this thread.

Although primary based on the family in Cavan this thread very much also became about familicide in general, and particularly the different reactions to this depending on the gender of the perpetrator. The reactions of the general public was key to this discussion, and I clearly quoted a very strange reaction from someone who felt that the poor child in this case would somehow have been happy to have his life ended by his mother.

hatrickpatrick

demfad wrote: »

This thread is about the particular Brutal mass murder in Cavan. If you feel this particular case is relevant to that then maybe explain why?

If the people who attacked any focus on Alan Haws' mental health and stated (correctly) that it was a cut and dry case of domestic violence do not do the same for this new case, it will become immensely relevant. And based on the headlines as well as user comments under reports on the new London case, unfortunately I can already predict which way this will go. :mad:

tomwaterford

demfad wrote: »

This thread is about the particular Brutal mass murder in Cavan. If you feel this particular case is relevant to that then maybe explain why?

Are both not massively similar....a parent killing their child (assumed here) and highlighting the glaring differences in reaction here??



-both are highly sad cases imo.....don't like to read about either

volchitsa

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If the people who attacked any focus on Alan Haws' mental health and stated (correctly) that it was a cut and dry case of domestic violence do not do the same for this new case, it will become immensely relevant. And based on the headlines as well as user comments under reports on the new London case, unfortunately I can already predict which way this will go. :mad:

But there was no problem with focusing on Alan Hawe's mental health - in fact when they did so it became clear that there was absolutely no evidence that he had any mental health issues whatsoever, and quite a lot of evidence that he was of sound mind when he massacred his wife and children.

If the London case also shows no evidence whatsoever of mental health issues in the killer, and evidence that she planned and carried out the killing methodically, then I'll agree that she is comparable to Hawes.

For now, I have no evidence either way. Do you?

volchitsa

Thumpette wrote: »

While I don't disagree that maybe it would be better with a thread by itself, I think it's fairly clear why it is relevant to this thread.

Although primary based on the family in Cavan this thread very much also became about familicide in general, and particularly the different reactions to this depending on the gender of the perpetrator. The reactions of the general public was key to this discussion, and I clearly quoted a very strange reaction from someone who felt that the poor child in this case would somehow have been happy to have his life ended by his mother.

I agree that this seems very strange, unless the child had serious health issues - and we haven't heard that.

However that's one awful comment, but it is only one - and while you're right to point it out, it doesn't actually make the two cases similar. only some people's reaction to them.

It only shows that some Irish people (I'm guessing that the author of that comment was Irish, I haven't read it) still keep the very inappropriate "cover-up and avoid unpleasantness at all costs" reaction that I personally think we need to dig out and destroy every time it happens.

hatrickpatrick

volchitsa wrote: »

But there was no problem with focusing on Alan Hawe's mental health - in fact when they did so it became clear that there was absolutely no evidence that he had any mental health issues whatsoever, and quite a lot of evidence that he was of sound mind when he massacred his wife and children.

If the London case also shows no evidence whatsoever of mental health issues in the killer, and evidence that she planned and carried out the killing methodically, then I'll agree that she is comparable to Hawes.

For now, I have no evidence either way. Do you?

Not at all, but my point is that the assumption many jumped to was that Hawes was unfortunate rather than monstrous, and this prompted outrage across Twitter and other social media. If the same thing doesn't happen here (already you can see sympathy for the alleged killer in much of the media) then it's evidence of what I generally refer to as the "empathy gap". In other words, women tend to get disproportionately more empathy / sympathy from society when they f*ck up like this, whereas guys are 'just assholes plain and simple'.

That's something I and many others have problems with. Personally I've had a problem with it all my life, not just my adult life. It's a specific kind of sexism which is rarely remarked upon in the mainstream, and when it is, feminists somehow manage to twist it into being an example of misogyny, even though it harms men far more.

hatrickpatrick

volchitsa wrote: »

it doesn't actually make the two cases similar.

Both cases involve a parent (allegedly in one, proven in the other) murdering their child. Sharing that rather fundamental aspect makes the two cases similar straight away.

py2006

You gotta love the double standard in the media here. All sympathies with the murderer. Ah she was going through a bad time etc.

Surprised some people aren't blaming the father...

HellSquirrel

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not at all, but my point is that the assumption many jumped to was that Hawes was unfortunate rather than monstrous, and this prompted outrage across Twitter and other social media. If the same thing doesn't happen here (already you can see sympathy for the alleged killer in much of the media) then it's evidence of what I generally refer to as the "empathy gap". In other words, women tend to get disproportionately more empathy / sympathy from society when they f*ck up like this, whereas guys are 'just assholes plain and simple'.

That's something I and many others have problems with. Personally I've had a problem with it all my life, not just my adult life. It's a specific kind of sexism which is rarely remarked upon in the mainstream, and when it is, feminists somehow manage to twist it into being an example of misogyny, even though it harms men far more.

Wait, so people were sympathetic to Hawe and tried to assume the kindest possibly explanation for his actions and if people don't do the same for this woman, than it's a case of misandry?

I mean...what? I can't be the only one not following this.

Also, where the hell is all the gender war bull**** coming from? The difference between the two cases, beyond that no-one in here knows that much about the London case, is that one was apparently a case of mental illness and the other appears to be a case of domestic violence.

I mean, you can decide that it's MAN VS WOMAN for some reason, but you might as well decide that it's a case of Irish vs English or one child vs two children. Whatever.

Also, a number of people are dead, including a number of children. I don't suppose you'd like to take your fecking agenda to any of the other threads on AH that go for that bollocks?

arayess

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Wait, so people were sympathetic to Hawe and tried to assume the kindest possibly explanation for his actions and if people don't do the same for this woman, than it's a case of misandry?

I mean...what? I can't be the only one not following this.

Also, where the hell is all the gender war bull**** coming from? The difference between the two cases, beyond that no-one in here knows that much about the London case, is that one was apparently a case of mental illness and the other appears to be a case of domestic violence.

I mean, you can decide that it's MAN VS WOMAN for some reason, but you might as well decide that it's a case of Irish vs English or one child vs two children. Whatever.

Also, a number of people are dead, including a number of children. I don't suppose you'd like to take your fecking agenda to any of the other threads on AH that go for that bollocks?

was there domestic violence in the Hawes or jsut speculation after the fact.
I've not read one comment that proved domestic violence only speculation. Can you advise us on this?

Yet this is now taken as fact and used as a stick to beat Hawe with furthering damaging his admittedly tarnished reputation

arayess

plenty of sympathy and "poor pet" comments over the irish woman in london who killed herself and her son , yet the Hawe fellow in cavan who did similar was vilified and his reputation kicked from pillar to post. that's equality folks.

of course no mention of the other (remaining ) victim - who is also irish - oisins father.,
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fathers-tribute-to-his-best-buddy-after-death-of-mum-and-boy-in-london-435730.html

seems like an after thought among the "poor girl, don't judge her" commentary...which is sickening

Oisin's father could have taken care of oisin but that wasn't to be.
She chose to deny her son his life and his father a chance to see his child grow up. That is disgusting and no amount of "lovely girl" nostalgia can change this

btw I think her and hawe are both selfish *****