5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

darkpagandeath

I'm lost was this arson or ?

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm lost was this arson or ?

Read the first post of the thread.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

I don't know why you are speculating on what happened in that house when there hasn't been any inquest yet and you know no more about what happened then any other stranger.
What makes you think that you can reach conclusions based on scant vague accounts in the media and your own imagination? You simply don't know, but your very happy to rush to a judgment.
I'll never understand this eagerness and impatience almost to have a bogeyman in place....someone to turn into a hate figure...evil ...ego...
You don't know but your going to go out there on a limb anyway. No need to wait for evidence gathering or witness testimonies.
Tayto lover has decided and that's it.

I am simply commenting on what happened on the last night the family were together. Don't know what went on before. There is a lot known locally about what happened in the house.

What went on that night was enough for me to base my opinion on Alan being a cruel evil bastard. I know enough to make that judgement.

HellSquirrel

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm lost was this arson or ?

Deleted User wrote: »

Read the first post of the thread.

May be best not to in this particular case, a lot of things happened since then.

In short, a couple of months ago, a woman and three young lads were stabbed to death by the father/husband. He left notes on the back door warning visitors not to come in but to call the police and left another couple of notes.

At the time, it was treated as a psychotic break or evidence that the man had been under a lot of stress and he and his family were buried together, perhaps (unconfirmed how much pressure was there or if it was only gentle suggestion) due to the parish priest. This caused outrage later on, especially as Clodagh Hawe's family indicated that the husband had been controlling and it became more of a question of domestic violence reaching a terrible conclusion rather than a mental health issue exploding out of control. There was a lot of criticism at how lauded Alan Hawe had been after the deaths and there was a feeling that Clodagh Hawe had been rather whitewashed out of the picture (trouble finding photos of her, for instance) in favour of talking about how wonderful a man Hawe had been.

It's a tragic story and it's caused a resurgence in Irish media and people discussing how we treat questions of domestic violence, especially if it goes unnoticed. It's also raised questions of mental health (even if disproved, the questions were there and spoken about) and even the power of the Church in social mores (the burial business) in Ireland.

No arson though.

political analyst

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm lost was this arson or ?

This must be the case you're thinking of - in the following case, the mother of the children was, just like in the Hawe case, from Co. Cavan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8401435.stm

Convicted sex offender Arthur McElhill killed himself and his family in a house fire in Omagh, County Tyrone, a coroner has ruled.
Coroner Suzanne Anderson said McElhill burned the house down because his partner, Lorraine McGovern, threatened to leave him.
McElhill, Ms McGovern and their five children died in the blaze at Lammy Crescent in November 2007.
He had been having sex with a 16-year-old girl in the weeks before the fire.

HellSquirrel

political analyst wrote: »

This must be the case you're thinking of - in the following case, the mother of the children was, just like in the Hawe case, from Co. Cavan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8401435.stm

Given that quote there all I can think is "what an absolute son of a bitch."

tayto lover

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Given that quote there all I can think is "what an absolute son of a bitch."

There would still be some on here trying to make him sound like a normal decent person though. Pillar of society.

political analyst

tayto lover wrote: »

There would still be some on here trying to make him sound like a normal decent person though. Pillar of society.

HellSquirrel was referring to Arthur McElhill, who had done time for sexual abuse before he murdered his partner and their children.

tayto lover

political analyst wrote: »

HellSquirrel was referring to Arthur McElhill, who had done time for sexual abuse before he murdered his partner and their children.

I know that. Up in the Omagh area.

Spanish Eyes

The inquest will only give the verdict as to cause of death.

It might throw up some information for the jury members and other interested parties, it might not.

My guess is unlawful killing for Clodagh and the boys, and suicide for yer man.

infogiver

tayto lover wrote: »

I am simply commenting on what happened on the last night the family were together. Don't know what went on before. There is a lot known locally about what happened in the house.

What went on that night was enough for me to base my opinion on Alan being a cruel evil bastard. I know enough to make that judgement.

I sincerely hope then that you never get picked for jury duty on a serious case.
You've no interest in hearing actual evidence, medical histories, witness accounts, testimonies from close family and friends etc. at all.
None whatsoever.
You made a snap judgement when the news broke and your determined to be proved right.
Your not really interested in justice or closure for 2 extended families, friends colleagues and an entire village, you just want the facts to fit your theory.

Zubeneschamali

infogiver wrote: »

You've no interest in hearing actual evidence, medical histories, witness accounts, testimonies from close family and friends etc. at all.

So you are saying that there is no evidence of domestic violence?

The fatal hatchet and knife wounds don't count as domestic violence because?

infogiver

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The inquest will only give the verdict as to cause of death.

It might throw up some information for the jury members and other interested parties, it might not.

My guess is unlawful killing for Clodagh and the boys, and suicide for yer man.

There will be evidence given by witnesses and experts which may explain ( and maybe/maybe not excuse) what happened.
The McEhill inquest came to a conclusion as to why.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

I sincerely hope then that you never get picked for jury duty on a serious case.
You've no interest in hearing actual evidence, medical histories, witness accounts, testimonies from close family and friends etc. at all.
None whatsoever.
You made a snap judgement when the news broke and your determined to be proved right.
Your not really interested in justice or closure for 2 extended families, friends colleagues and an entire village, you just want the facts to fit your theory.

So there were no injuries on the victims then? No stab wounds, no butchery, no notes left, nothing??
You really need to get a grip of yourself and stop embarrassing yourself.

infogiver

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So you are saying that there is no evidence of domestic violence?

The fatal hatchet and knife wounds don't count as domestic violence because?

I'm not saying there is or isn't evidence of anything at all.
Because the inquest has yet to take place.
I cannot understand your lack of patience in these matters.
If your not directly affected by this tragedy then why can you not have some respect and stop pointlessly speculating until the investigation is completed and the evidence presented for a jury to consider?

HellSquirrel

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So you are saying that there is no evidence of domestic violence?

The fatal hatchet and knife wounds don't count as domestic violence because?

They absolutely do, of course. No, the question is not whether an act of domestic violence killed them, the question was is there evidence that there was an ongoing issue with domestic violence that ended up with this, rather than, say, Hawe having a mental break and this being utterly unexpected beforehand.

No-one's denying that he murdered them and it was a horrendous act. When people are talking about domestic abuse though, it's more a question of was this going on for a long time and is this horrific outcome something that could have been seen coming. Conversely and taking the original commentry about mental health and something being wrong there, was there evidence for that and was -that- visible before it all came to its awful conclusion.

No-one's denying that a man viciously and brutally murdered a woman and three children, the wife and children he should have loved and cherished above all else. The questions are why and how can something like this be prevented from happening again.

political analyst

tayto lover wrote: »

I know that. Up in the Omagh area.

In post 2008 you said:

There would still be some on here trying to make him sound like a normal decent person though. Pillar of society.

People trying to make a man who was into under-age girls sound like a normal decent person?! Nonsense!

tayto lover

political analyst wrote: »

In post 2008 you said:


People trying to make a man who was into under-age girls sound like a normal decent person?! Nonsense!

I agree with you.
BUT look at them all defending Hawe and looking for ways to alleviate his guilt. He was a bad git. His poor wife and kids. My God I still think of their last moments. Awful.

political analyst

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with you.
BUT look at them all defending Hawe and looking for ways to alleviate his guilt. He was a bad git. His poor wife and kids. My God I still think of their last moments. Awful.

They weren't - they were simply talking about what they knew of him; there is a difference. They were struggling to comprehend his actions.

tayto lover

political analyst wrote: »

They weren't - they were simply talking about what they knew of him; there is a difference. They were struggling to comprehend his actions.

For my part I don't care what he was suffering with or whether he was insane or not.
He brutally murdered his wife and children.
There are loads of insane people who did not resort to that and in such a violent manner. The fact that he left notes warning people not to proceed into the house but to inform the Garda proves to me how calculating he was.

infogiver

tayto lover wrote: »

So there were no injuries on the victims then? No stab wounds, no butchery, no notes left, nothing??
You really need to get a grip of yourself and stop embarrassing yourself.

The only embarrassment on here is you and your ilk practically frothing at the mouth with frustration that you must wait so long before you can damn a dead man and his extended family to hell and back.
And to what end? What is achieved by your incontinent pointless rhetoric? What benefit to the bereaved? Absolutely none of course, except for you to say that you were proved right.
Have you sent a letter of condolence to the dead woman's mother?
Have you made a donation to Women's Aid?
I bet you haven't.
You'd like to dig his corpse up and kick him around but decent society won't let you. I'm grateful that the decent majority don't allow you to hurt the bereaved with your lynch mob mentality reaction, that your only allowed to post here, anonymously of course, where hopefully no one affected by this tragedy can read this rubbish.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

The only embarrassment on here is you and your ilk practically frothing at the mouth with frustration that you must wait so long before you can damn a dead man and his extended family to hell and back.
And to what end? What is achieved by your incontinent pointless rhetoric? What benefit to the bereaved? Absolutely none of course, except for you to say that you were proved right.
Have you sent a letter of condolence to the dead woman's mother?
Have you made a donation to Women's Aid?
I bet you haven't.
You'd like to dig his corpse up and kick him around but decent society won't let you. I'm grateful that the decent majority don't allow you to hurt the bereaved with your lynch mob mentality reaction, that your only allowed to post here, anonymously of course, where hopefully no one affected by this tragedy can read this rubbish.

All those things he managed to achieve on his own.
He murdered his wife and family alone. No help sought at all. He did it on his own.
You, however, seem to be trying to get him canonised.


I am a big supporter of Womans Aid and other deserving charities.

infogiver

tayto lover wrote: »

All those things he managed to achieve on his own.
He murdered his wife and family alone. No help sought at all. He did it on his own.
You, however, seem to be trying to get him canonised.


I am a big supporter of Womans Aid and other deserving charities.

You have zero proof or evidence of any of your allegations.
I have expressed no opinion on the character of Alan Hawe.
Do you know why?
Because, like you, I know absolutely nothing about him, or what happened, or why.
Why don't you calm yourself down and stop your pointless rampage until we hear from experts?

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

You have zero proof or evidence of any of your allegations.
I have expressed no opinion on the character of Alan Hawe.
Do you know why?
Because, like you, I know absolutely nothing about him, or what happened, or why.
Why don't you calm yourself down and stop your pointless rampage until we hear from experts?

The proof is - there were 4 people stabbed to death.One suicide - Alan Hawe.
The police are not looking for anyone else.

Now if the police are satisfied with the above then there is only one conclusion - he killed the others and then himself.

Why we don't know but this is irrelevant to me. He committed the brutal murders of his own wife and children.

An inquest will only concern itself with the cause of death. It's not a trial.

HellSquirrel

tayto lover wrote: »

Why we don't know but this is irrelevant to me. He committed the brutal murders of his own wife and children.

Maybe it should be relevant though. It is too late for Clodagh, Ryan, Niall and Liam. They were murdered by a man who should have been willing to place his own life on the line to protect them - as there is evidence that Clodagh was for the children. Whether Alan Hawe is left where he is or whether his head is placed on a spike will not change that. I wish it could, but it can't.

But they deserve to have their story known. They deserve it to be known if they were suffering for years or if they were watching their father descend into madness. Personally, from what bits I've read and heard, I do believe he was a bully and perhaps abusive. I don't know that, but sadly, statistically, familial murders are more likely to be domestic abuse.

And if the true story coming out means that other women and children (or fathers and children) can understand what the signs are and get out before things come to such an awful head as this, maybe lives can be saved.

Both of those things are reasons why the why is relevant. Merely turning the air blue about his evil may be satisfying for a casual reader about the case, but it doesn't solve anything and will help no-one. Don't get me wrong, I called the guy that murdered his family by setting the house on fire when his wife was about to leave him a son of a bitch. I get the urge. But I would never stand in the way of understanding why something happened to prevent it happening again.

political analyst

political analyst wrote: »

I don't have an agenda. I'm highlighting the issue of double-standards. A man who commits "family annihilation", as it's called in the US, is often referred to as evil but a woman who does it is referred to as mentally ill.

Er, just like all the speculation in the media about mental illness being a factor in this case?

political analyst

tayto lover wrote: »

For my part I don't care what he was suffering with or whether he was insane or not.
He brutally murdered his wife and children.
There are loads of insane people who did not resort to that and in such a violent manner. The fact that he left notes warning people not to proceed into the house but to inform the Garda proves to me how calculating he was.

So you acknowledge the possibility, however slight, that there was insanity, or diminished responsibility at the very least, in this case.

Believe it or not, some parents who have violently killed their children were insane and thus didn't understand their own actions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7191847.stm

A psychiatrist who drowned her daughter in a bath has been found not guilty of murder, by reason of insanity. Lynn Gibbs, 47, admitted killing her 16-year-old daughter Ciara at their home in Gowran, County Kilkenny, in November 2006.
Both the prosecution and defence had argued at Dublin's Circuit Criminal Court that she had been suffering from a mental disorder at the time.
She was committed back to the Central Mental Hospital for further treatment.
It took the jury 20 minutes to reach its conclusion.

infogiver

political analyst wrote: »

So you acknowledge the possibility, however slight, that there was insanity, or diminished responsibility at the very least, in this case.

Believe it or not, some parents who have violently killed their children were insane and thus didn't understand their own actions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7191847.stm

I think this is part of the problem that Tayto lover and others have with these tragedies.
I know it's unbelievable, but lots of people just don't accept that mental illness is a "thing".
Even after all this time, even after all the evidence, they just don't believe it.
No such thing as depression ( pull yourself together, what have you got to be depressed about, there's others worse off than you...)
No such thing as stress, anxiety bi polar or even schizophrenia.
It's all made up pretentious rubbish.
People looking for "notice ".
People are never "mad" they're just "bad".
It makes me despair.

infogiver

infogiver wrote: »

I think this is part of the problem that Tayto lover and others have with these tragedies.
I know it's unbelievable, but lots of people just don't accept that mental illness is a "thing".
Even after all this time, even after all the evidence, they just don't believe it.
No such thing as depression ( pull yourself together, what have you got to be depressed about, there's others worse off than you...)
No such thing as stress, anxiety bi polar or even schizophrenia.
It's all made up pretentious rubbish.
People looking for "notice ".
People are never "mad" they're just "bad".
It makes me despair.

There is no evidence of mental illness in this case.

There is evidence of abuse.

Not everyone who commits murder does so because of insanity.
Some do, but certainly not all. Therefore, it is very possible, even probable, that mental illness was not a factor in this case.

What is so difficult to understand about that?
Or are you suggesting that controlling, or abusive behaviour, is in itself only possible if one is insane?

political analyst

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no evidence of mental illness in this case.

There is evidence of abuse.

Not everyone who commits murder does so because of insanity.
Some do, but certainly not all. Therefore, it is very possible, even probable, that mental illness was not a factor in this case.

What is so difficult to understand about that?
Or are you suggesting that controlling, or abusive behaviour, is in itself only possible if one is insane?

If Clodagh's mother and sister knew that there was domestic abuse then why would they let him be buried with her and the children? The shock of the atrocity cannot have made them forget about the previous abuse.

infogiver

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is no evidence of mental illness in this case.

There is evidence of abuse.

Not everyone who commits murder does so because of insanity.
Some do, but certainly not all. Therefore, it is very possible, even probable, that mental illness was not a factor in this case.

What is so difficult to understand about that?
Or are you suggesting that controlling, or abusive behaviour, is in itself only possible if one is insane?

But you haven't seen any evidence one way or the other regarding mental illness in this case. Do you not think it's a bit arrogant of you to dismiss mental Illness as a contributing factor before any inquest?
I mean, how on earth do you imagine you are qualified in any way to assume that there is no evidence of mental illness when you, or any of us, haven't seen or heard any reports of the evidence or witnesses testimony at the inquest?
Because IT HASNT BEEN HELD YET!
Is that do difficult for YOU to grasp?
It could turn out that Alan Hawe was a cold calculating evil controlling wife beating monster.
Of course I know that many murderers are perfectly sane and perfectly evil.
What I'm happy to do, and the pitchfork wielding lynch mob are not, is reserve my judgment until an effort has been made to investigate the circumstances of this tragedy.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no evidence of mental illness in this case.

there is no evidence of no mental illness either.

Deleted User wrote: »

There is evidence of abuse.

only claims more then actual evidence. he might very well have been an abuser, but until we get the full picture we just don't know.

Deleted User wrote: »

Not everyone who commits murder does so because of insanity.

nobody said otherwise.

Deleted User wrote: »

Some do, but certainly not all. Therefore, it is very possible, even probable, that mental illness was not a factor in this case.

it's also possible, even probable, that mental illness might have been a factor in this case. we just don't know either way.

eviltwin

political analyst wrote: »

If Clodagh's mother and sister knew that there was domestic abuse then why would they let him be buried with her and the children? The shock of the atrocity cannot have made them forget about the previous abuse.

Maybe they didn't know there was abuse or didn't realise the severity. Or maybe in their shock they couldn't think straight and allowed the priest to guide them. There are still sections of society for who keeping up appearances is all important. Reading the interview her mother and sister gave recently it's clear they have different opinions now.

infogiver

eviltwin wrote: »

Maybe they didn't know there was abuse or didn't realise the severity. Or maybe in their shock they couldn't think straight and allowed the priest to guide them. There are still sections of society for who keeping up appearances is all important. Reading the interview her mother and sister gave recently it's clear they have different opinions now.

I think it's cruel of you and a terrible injustice to suggest that the mother and sister of the dead woman, a grandmother and aunt to 3 dead children, were "keeping up appearances " when making funeral arrangements.
You have no clue who these people are or the trauma they endured but feel free to speculate wildly about why they made the decisions they did.
Boards gives me a headache at times.

political analyst

political analyst wrote: »

If Clodagh's mother and sister knew that there was domestic abuse then why would they let him be buried with her and the children? The shock of the atrocity cannot have made them forget about the previous abuse.

I believe the sisters comment was "What we now know" - so I would assume that they found something out after the tragedy.

It's clear that they are unhappy with the burial arrangements now, at any rate.

infogiver wrote: »

But you haven't seen any evidence one way or the other regarding mental illness in this case. Do you not think it's a bit arrogant of you to dismiss mental Illness as a contributing factor before any inquest?
I mean, how on earth do you imagine you are qualified in any way to assume that there is no evidence of mental illness when you, or any of us, haven't seen or heard any reports of the evidence or witnesses testimony at the inquest?
Because IT HASNT BEEN HELD YET!
Is that do difficult for YOU to grasp?
It could turn out that Alan Hawe was a cold calculating evil controlling wife beating monster.
Of course I know that many murderers are perfectly sane and perfectly evil.
What I'm happy to do, and the pitchfork wielding lynch mob are not, is reserve my judgment until an effort has been made to investigate the circumstances of this tragedy.

All this because I said mental illness probably wasn't a factor?

Wow! Overreact, much?

still finding it pretty astonishing how there are posters sitting waiting for a comment, any comment, to this thread so that they can bark out that nobody should comment to this thread.

its a very puzzling instinct.

when posters exhibiting this type of behaviour only question the right of anyone to post from one point of view its less puzzling but does start to look like..... i dunno some. sort of agenda?

a bizarre one, but yes id have to say it starts to look like an agenda.

Fakediamond

Mental illness involves entering an altered reality, where rational thinking is absent.

The reason that people say Alan Hawe was not mentally ill is because he had the presence of mind to write self-serving notes before taking his own life.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

I think this is part of the problem that Tayto lover and others have with these tragedies.
I know it's unbelievable, but lots of people just don't accept that mental illness is a "thing".
Even after all this time, even after all the evidence, they just don't believe it.
No such thing as depression ( pull yourself together, what have you got to be depressed about, there's others worse off than you...)
No such thing as stress, anxiety bi polar or even schizophrenia.
It's all made up pretentious rubbish.
People looking for "notice ".
People are never "mad" they're just "bad".
It makes me despair.

The main gripe I have is them being buried together.
It wouldn't matter to me if he had a mental illness or not he would not be in the grave with my relatives if I could help it at all.
He put them through extreme terror in their last hours and doesn't deserve to be there with them now. Madness or badness is irrelevant in this case. I do believe he was an evil person though and have nothing make me believe otherwise. Loads of people with mental illnesses go through life without murdering their nearest and dearest.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

I think it's cruel of you and a terrible injustice to suggest that the mother and sister of the dead woman, a grandmother and aunt to 3 dead children, were "keeping up appearances " when making funeral arrangements.
You have no clue who these people are or the trauma they endured but feel free to speculate wildly about why they made the decisions they did.
Boards gives me a headache at times.

You on the otherhand seem very naive and always at the ready to defend the indefensible. Always the defender of the poor murderer.

infogiver

[Deleted User] wrote: »

still finding it pretty astonishing how there are posters sitting waiting for a comment, any comment, to this thread so that they can bark out that nobody should comment to this thread.

its a very puzzling instinct.

when posters exhibiting this type of behaviour only question the right of anyone to post from one point of view its less puzzling but does start to look like..... i dunno some. sort of agenda?

a bizarre one, but yes id have to say it starts to look like an agenda.

Yes it's a huge conspiracy organised by the WBI (wife beaters Ireland) to prevent discussion about domestic violence.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the utter tastelessness and crassness of speculating wildly about the circumstances of a terrible tragedy which has rent asunder an entire community.
Go right ahead and pick over the bones of other people's heartache for your own entertainment.
If it ever happens to you I'm sure you won't mind a whole online community discussing your business, about which they know precisely nothing.

infogiver

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I believe the sisters comment was "What we now know" - so I would assume that they found something out after the tragedy.

It's clear that they are unhappy with the burial arrangements now, at any rate.



All this because I said mental illness probably wasn't a factor?

Wow! Overreact, much?

But you can't explain how you came to the conclusion that mental illness probably wasn't a factor, can you?
I'd like you to answer this question.

volchitsa

infogiver wrote: »

But you can't explain how you came to the conclusion that mental illness probably wasn't a factor, can you?
I'd like you to answer this question.

Maybe because nearly three months later, the immediate family of his victims are now talking about domestic abuse and not about mental health?

The mental health aspect was considered initially, but now appears to have been completely discounted by those closest to the killings.

In the absence of any identifiable reason to doubt their view of events, that's a good enough reason for me.

C. Montgomery Gurns

I must say the reaction to Alan Hawe vs the reaction to the Irish woman who killed her son in London on Facebook comments and the like was astounding. The London woman it was all poor this poor that she must have been in an awful dark place the stress of working single mother London cost of living blah blah. With Hawe there were people wishing they could somehow bring him back to life so he could be tortured to death the second time around. It always baffles me the gender difference reaction when this type of thing occurs.

eviltwin

infogiver wrote: »

I think it's cruel of you and a terrible injustice to suggest that the mother and sister of the dead woman, a grandmother and aunt to 3 dead children, were "keeping up appearances " when making funeral arrangements.
You have no clue who these people are or the trauma they endured but feel free to speculate wildly about why they made the decisions they did.
Boards gives me a headache at times.

I wasn't referring to her family, I was referring to the priest in this instance and society in general.

infogiver

infogiver wrote: »

But you can't explain how you came to the conclusion that mental illness probably wasn't a factor, can you?
I'd like you to answer this question.

Simply because, while it appears to have been considered initially by Clodaghs family, it now appears to have been entirely discounted.

Comments like "silent abuse", "hidden abuse", together with "He was about to be knocked off his pedestal" suggest that the family don't believe that mental illness was a factor.

Add the fact that neighbours who were interviewed, (and family friends also, if I remember correctly?) noticed nothing unusual about his behaviour in the days or weeks leading up to the attack. Nor does there appear to be any history of mental illness.

Hence, it is reasonable to state that it probably wasn't mental illness.

Now, if the inquest finds that it was mental illness ( I do remember work related stress being mentioned!) - then, that's fair enough.

Strangely enough, I think someone believing in a "probable" scenario is more open-minded than someone who is quite defensive about the possibility that mental illness may not have been a factor.....

Edit:

Some statistics to back up my reasoning:

From 2014:

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/mental-illness-crime.aspx

WASHINGTON — In a study of crimes committed by people with serious mental disorders, only 7.5 percent were directly related to symptoms of mental illness, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.

From 1988

This was a study of1000 Homicides by mentally ill

Several different studies and calculation methods (presented below) suggest that 1,000 homicides or more a year are committed by people with untreated severe mental illness..A 2011 study suggests that state homicide rates are correlated to the state's civil commitment laws, i.e, states that make it easier to treat people with mental illness have lower homicide rates.
From 1988 Department of Justice study

(J. M. Dawson and P. A. Langan, Murder in Families, U.S. Department of Justice, 1994)

T 2,655 homicides in 1988 drawn from a "representative sample" of 33 of the largest counties in the United States. The information was obtained from the files of prosecutors who examined the cases. They reported that 4.3 percent of the assailants had a "history of mental illness."

In 1988 there were reported to be 20,680 cases of "murder and non-negligent manslaughter" in the United States (Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics online). If the Dawson and Langan study is correct, there would have been 889 homicides (20,680 x 4.3%) caused by mentally ill individuals in the United States in 1988. Since 1988, the murder rate has decreased in the United States (16,910 in 1998). Most of the decrease is thought to be caused by (a) increased incarceration rates of career criminals; (b) fewer drug-related homicides, because of increased organization of the cocaine distribution; and (c) demographic factors, especially an aging population. None of these would be likely to significantly affect the number of homicides committed by individuals with mental illnesses. On the other hand, since 1988, public psychiatric services for individuals with mental illnesses have continued to deteriorate, and there are now many more such individuals who have been released from state psychiatric hospitals and who are not being treated.

Assuming that there had been no change between 1988 and 1998 in the percentage of homicides committed by individuals with "a history of mental illness," then in 1998 4.3 percent of 16,910 homicides, or 727 homicides, would have been committed by such individuals.

So, somewhere between 4.3% - 7.5% of murders are committed by those with mental illness, if these studies remain accurate.

Meaning that, on the balance of probability, mental illness is less likely to have been the cause than other motives.

None of which proves definitively that mental illness wasn't a factor. Just that, on the evidence available so far - it probably wasn't.

infogiver

infogiver wrote: »

Yes it's a huge conspiracy organised by the WBI (wife beaters Ireland) to prevent discussion about domestic violence.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the utter tastelessness and crassness of speculating wildly about the circumstances of a terrible tragedy which has rent asunder an entire community.
Go right ahead and pick over the bones of other people's heartache for your own entertainment.
If it ever happens to you I'm sure you won't mind a whole online community discussing your business, about which they know precisely nothing.

i post to this thread less than you, i think its worth my pointing out. so much for amusing myself on the topic.

i dont claim to know what your agenda is tbh. but if it were really nothing more than disapproval about discussion of a multiple murder on a message board then one would have thought that you were going a very funny way about it.

noting that disapproval once would appear to cover any public disavowal you felt you had to make.

not posting to nor reading the thread would appear more logical again.

constantly disrupting the thread to tell others what you think they should or should not post is... i think i used the word bizarre and yeah thatll do as a descriptor.

ill furthermore note that ive suffered an immediate family tragedy that made the news. i never once assumed that it was for me to go trawling for discussion of it, let alone to attempt to control discussion of it. so that being said, and my cards on the table, what makes you the appointed moral guardian of discussion on this topic?

go haunt another tragedy.

HellSquirrel

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

I must say the reaction to Alan Hawe vs the reaction to the Irish woman who killed her son in London on Facebook comments and the like was astounding. The London woman it was all poor this poor that she must have been in an awful dark place the stress of working single mother London cost of living blah blah. With Hawe there were people wishing they could somehow bring him back to life so he could be tortured to death the second time around. It always baffles me the gender difference reaction when this type of thing occurs.

You're too late, this was already hashed out ad nauseum and concluded that it was complete bollocks to be comparing the two cases as if you have any idea about it. For a start, there -is- (slight) evidence of mental issues in that case and there has been none so far in the Hawe case. But give it time, and recall that the Hawe case was very sympathetic to Alan Hawe for a long time before more info came out. The same might happen in the London case. Or it might not. To make the accusation that she's being treated differently because she's a woman rather than because there are few obvious connectors between the cases (other than the terrible outcome) is frankly, just you having an agenda. Otherwise why would you assume she is guilty of a predetermined and sane act -just because- she is female? That didn't happen with Hawe, bar some people who so far seem to be correct. Doesn't make it right to assume with no evidence though.

That you have three posts and just happen to fall into this thread with a "controversial" opinion that mostly consists of bollocks and presupposition that just happens to be the same one as someone else earlier who was thoroughly debunked is...

Yeah, you're not subtle.

infogiver

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

I must say the reaction to Alan Hawe vs the reaction to the Irish woman who killed her son in London on Facebook comments and the like was astounding. The London woman it was all poor this poor that she must have been in an awful dark place the stress of working single mother London cost of living blah blah. With Hawe there were people wishing they could somehow bring him back to life so he could be tortured to death the second time around. It always baffles me the gender difference reaction when this type of thing occurs.

It shouldn't surprise you, it's so depressing, I should have ignored all this like I usually do.
The mods note in the thread title is particularly galling

C. Montgomery Gurns

Nobody was ever sympathetic to Hawe, aside from maybe people in his local community who liked him on a personal level. Whether you like it or not there is a different rule that men and women are held under. A few months ago I read something about looking out for the signs that a man is controlling a woman in their relationship. Signs included telling them what they should and shouldn't wear, making deliberate attempts to isolate them from their friends, telling them when and where they can and can't go out socialising, restricting their access to money held in joint accs (fair enough if the partner is a pisshead or a gambler mind) demanding that they end old hobbies and interests and hang out only with people who share the dominant partner's hobbies and interests.

I found the whole read quite funny. I've never known, at least in my friend group, any lad who insisted on any of the above, yet I can think of at least three lads I know in the exact same situation with their missus as the above, pretending to enjoy such lofty pursuits as vegatarianism, agreeing to having their children named ludicrous names, one eejit I was formerly friends with is so terrified of the missus he adopted her surname hyphenated on to his own when they married.

HellSquirrel

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

Nobody was ever sympathetic to Hawe, aside from maybe people in his local community who liked him on a personal level. Whether you like it or not there is a different rule that men and women are held under.

Oh good heavens, read the thread. This very thread in which you are commenting disproves you. This is probably the -worst- case to try and spin a misandrist tale out of. And it's very disrespectful to everyone involved in both cases.

What about the London case, about which very little is known, keeps attracting people to make these comments? Why -that- case specifically? Why not killer nurses or something, which have been predominantly female, or munchausens-by-proxy, again primarily female.

But comparing it to the Hawe case undermines your argument before you even begin because the evidence of arguing for a lenient "meaning" to it all is blatantly obvious. The evidence of the newspaper reports (generally sympathetic) is blatantly obvious.

In retrospect even YOUR OWN COMMENT disproves you " aside from maybe people in his local community who liked him on a personal level". The people that would have had the only real chance of knowing if there was something going on reported what they knew of him, which was that he seemed to be a decent man. That is, inevitably, the line the newspapers picked up because it was the line out there.