5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

Johnnyjump

Let them all rest in peace. Nobody on this thread knows the full truth about this very sad case and I doubt that, even after the inquest, we ever will.

demfad

infogiver wrote: »

You have zero proof or evidence of any of your allegations.
I have expressed no opinion on the character of Alan Hawe.
Do you know why?
Because, like you, I know absolutely nothing about him, or what happened, or why.
Why don't you calm yourself down and stop your pointless rampage until we hear from experts?

What about experts on family annihilation?
In this comprehensive study of over 400 cases: anytime a man wipes out his family in 70% of cases there was prior domestic violence. Other reasons might be severe mental illness (5%) or substance abuse (5%).
Source here. Worth reading the full article
https://granta.com/he-had-his-reasons/.
A British study in 2013 showed similar motives with an almost uniform commonality of a 'sense of ownership of family', 'male entitlement', 'killer was always firmly the family head'.

In cases of domestic violence against women the 'experts' are Womensaid.
A week after the Hawe massacre they reported that in 2015 almost a thousand women had phoned their helpline reporting that their partners had threatened to kill them (and sometimes children). They also reported that according to their statistics well over 200 women (and many more children) had been killed violently by their partners in the last 20 years (including Clodagh and family) They reported that the week after the massacre had seen a huge surge in calls to their helpline. Clearly many thousands of women in Ireland suffering domestic violence didn't want to end up as Clodagh and her boys did.

The Gardai reportedly found no evidence of previous mental issues with the killer and found no reported unusual behaviour up until the murders.
The fact that the killer reportedly wrote an explanation note means that it cant have been a 'snap'. He knew what he did. He tried to explain it in his note.

What about symtoms for domestic violence? Hawe was head of a religious family and the parish priest proudly stated he was a traditional father "steeped in the noble traditions of family'.
A relative described Clodagh as a very talkative outgoing character until she married Hawe. After which she was subdued quiet and isolated. She had no social media accounts, and it was reported that the family was tight "yous aw one you saw them all". This means that Clodagh was rarely out of Alans sight. It was also reported the house as quiet, no one visited much, no one knew what went on inside.
A relative of Clodagh Hawe reported that he had been manipulative and controlling over many years and was skilled at hiding this in his public persona. Street angel, house devil.
After coming under severe pressure to bury the family together by the parish priest, Clodaghs Mum and sister publicly declare their regret at this and the priest is forced to call Hawe 'evil' at the months mind.
Last month the Mum and daughter come out and state Hawe was guilty of domestic abuse over his family. They know.
They start a fundraising campaign with womensaid to help others get out of Clodaghs position before its too late.

The inquest will return unlawful deaths. There isn't a court case when the perpetrator commits suicide.
It seems almost certain that were Hawe to have survived he would be convicted of multiple murders.
The family want us to remember this as a case of domestic violence. The evidence and circumstances agrees with them.
Can supply a shred of substantiation that backs your mental illness theory that makes it more likely than substance abuse, hypnotism, or devil possession? Otherwise you are clearly pushing the narrative that Alan Hawe might have diminished responsibily for no apparent reason and most likely a hidden one.
Please show integrity with your answer.

robbiezero

demfad wrote: »

What about experts on family annihilation?
In this comprehensive study of over 400 cases: anytime a man wipes out his family in 70% of cases there was prior domestic violence. Other reasons might be severe mental illness (5%) or substance abuse (5%).
Source here. Worth reading the full article
https://granta.com/he-had-his-reasons/.
A British study in 2013 showed similar motives with an almost uniform commonality of a 'sense of ownership of family', 'male entitlement', 'killer was always firmly the family head'.

In cases of domestic violence against women the 'experts' are Womensaid.
A week after the Hawe massacre they reported that in 2015 almost a thousand women had phoned their helpline reporting that their partners had threatened to kill them (and sometimes children). They also reported that according to their statistics well over 200 women (and many more children) had been killed violently by their partners in the last 20 years (including Clodagh and family) They reported that the week after the massacre had seen a huge surge in calls to their helpline. Clearly many thousands of women in Ireland suffering domestic violence didn't want to end up as Clodagh and her boys did.

The Gardai reportedly found no evidence of previous mental issues with the killer and found no reported unusual behaviour up until the murders.
The fact that the killer reportedly wrote an explanation note means that it cant have been a 'snap'. He knew what he did. He tried to explain it in his note.

What about symtoms for domestic violence? Hawe was head of a religious family and the parish priest proudly stated he was a traditional father "steeped in the noble traditions of family'.
A relative described Clodagh as a very talkative outgoing character until she married Hawe. After which she was subdued quiet and isolated. She had no social media accounts, and it was reported that the family was tight "yous aw one you saw them all". This means that Clodagh was rarely out of Alans sight. It was also reported the house as quiet, no one visited much, no one knew what went on inside.
A relative of Clodagh Hawe reported that he had been manipulative and controlling over many years and was skilled at hiding this in his public persona. Street angel, house devil.
After coming under severe pressure to bury the family together by the parish priest, Clodaghs Mum and sister publicly declare their regret at this and the priest is forced to call Hawe 'evil' at the months mind.
Last month the Mum and daughter come out and state Hawe was guilty of domestic abuse over his family. They know.
They start a fundraising campaign with womensaid to help others get out of Clodaghs position before its too late.

The inquest will return unlawful deaths. There isn't a court case when the perpetrator commits suicide.
It seems almost certain that were Hawe to have survived he would be convicted of multiple murders.
The family want us to remember this as a case of domestic violence. The evidence and circumstances agrees with them.
Can supply a shred of substantiation that backs your mental illness theory that makes it more likely than substance abuse, hypnotism, or devil possession? Otherwise you are clearly pushing the narrative that Alan Hawe might have diminished responsibily for no apparent reason and most likely a hidden one.
Please show integrity with your answer.

Didn't realize they had actually stated that. Can you link?

infogiver

demfad wrote: »

What about experts on family annihilation?
In this comprehensive study of over 400 cases: anytime a man wipes out his family in 70% of cases there was prior domestic violence. Other reasons might be severe mental illness (5%) or substance abuse (5%).
Source here. Worth reading the full article
https://granta.com/he-had-his-reasons/.
A British study in 2013 showed similar motives with an almost uniform commonality of a 'sense of ownership of family', 'male entitlement', 'killer was always firmly the family head'.

In cases of domestic violence against women the 'experts' are Womensaid.
A week after the Hawe massacre they reported that in 2015 almost a thousand women had phoned their helpline reporting that their partners had threatened to kill them (and sometimes children). They also reported that according to their statistics well over 200 women (and many more children) had been killed violently by their partners in the last 20 years (including Clodagh and family) They reported that the week after the massacre had seen a huge surge in calls to their helpline. Clearly many thousands of women in Ireland suffering domestic violence didn't want to end up as Clodagh and her boys did.

The Gardai reportedly found no evidence of previous mental issues with the killer and found no reported unusual behaviour up until the murders.
The fact that the killer reportedly wrote an explanation note means that it cant have been a 'snap'. He knew what he did. He tried to explain it in his note.

What about symtoms for domestic violence? Hawe was head of a religious family and the parish priest proudly stated he was a traditional father "steeped in the noble traditions of family'.
A relative described Clodagh as a very talkative outgoing character until she married Hawe. After which she was subdued quiet and isolated. She had no social media accounts, and it was reported that the family was tight "yous aw one you saw them all". This means that Clodagh was rarely out of Alans sight. It was also reported the house as quiet, no one visited much, no one knew what went on inside.
A relative of Clodagh Hawe reported that he had been manipulative and controlling over many years and was skilled at hiding this in his public persona. Street angel, house devil.
After coming under severe pressure to bury the family together by the parish priest, Clodaghs Mum and sister publicly declare their regret at this and the priest is forced to call Hawe 'evil' at the months mind.
Last month the Mum and daughter come out and state Hawe was guilty of domestic abuse over his family. They know.
They start a fundraising campaign with womensaid to help others get out of Clodaghs position before its too late.

The inquest will return unlawful deaths. There isn't a court case when the perpetrator commits suicide.
It seems almost certain that were Hawe to have survived he would be convicted of multiple murders.
The family want us to remember this as a case of domestic violence. The evidence and circumstances agrees with them.
Can supply a shred of substantiation that backs your mental illness theory that makes it more likely than substance abuse, hypnotism, or devil possession? Otherwise you are clearly pushing the narrative that Alan Hawe might have diminished responsibily for no apparent reason and most likely a hidden one.
Please show integrity with your answer.

I'm jealous that you've travelled in time, been to the future, attended the inquest and are back with the results. Did you happen to see the Lotto numbers for that week while you were there?
You had to use the word "reportedly " several times in your post.
Why? Because you simply do not know, you are merely speculating, a practice forbidden by the mods in the title of this thread.
In your answer to this post I now demand that YOU show "integrity " and point out specifically, in any post I made, where I alleged that Alan Hawe was even "reportedly" suffering from mental illness?

tayto lover

Johnnyjump wrote: »

Let them all rest in peace. Nobody on this thread knows the full truth about this very sad case and I doubt that, even after the inquest, we ever will.

I hope they do rest in peace.
For the surviving family members it will be quite different though. Wondering about little things that happened, little hints dropped but not picked up on immediately, little warning signs that things were not well with the marriage, little bouts of quietness and fear especially when the big bad wolf was around etc etc.

demfad

robbiezero wrote: »

Didn't realize they had actually stated that. Can you link?

infogiver wrote: »

I'm jealous that you've travelled in time, been to the future, attended the inquest and are back with the results. Did you happen to see the Lotto numbers for that week while you were there?
You had to use the word "reportedly " several times in your post.
Why? Because you simply do not know, you are merely speculating, a practice forbidden by the mods in the title of this thread.
In your answer to this post I now demand that YOU show "integrity " and point out specifically, in any post I made, where I alleged that Alan Hawe was even "reportedly" suffering from mental illness?

Linked already several times:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017

“In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh’s situation.

infogiver wrote: »

I'm jealous that you've travelled in time, been to the future, attended the inquest and are back with the results. Did you happen to see the Lotto numbers for that week while you were there?
You had to use the word "reportedly " several times in your post.
Why? Because you simply do not know, you are merely speculating, a practice forbidden by the mods in the title of this thread.
In your answer to this post I now demand that YOU show "integrity " and point out specifically, in any post I made, where I alleged that Alan Hawe was even "reportedly" suffering from mental illness?

The reports I quoted were either to the media from official Garda sources or from actual family members. Not speculation.
The view of Hawe as extremely patriarcal comes from the priests own words and his explanation of the momento on his funeral coffin.
The view of Clodagh and other family members comes from her relation and from quotes from neighbours. If you believe that this mass murder should not be commented on in any media before the inquest that id your view. The gardai, judiciary, politicians, public certainly don't share it.

You have repeatedly raised the idea of mental illness as a possible explanation. Again have you any substantiation for this point of view. Any statement from the Gardai to corrobarate it for example?
Didn't think so. Earlier in this thread you made the false claim that the priest did not have any say in the burial arrangements.
Will you show integrity now and back up your assertions with atleast some reasoning on a thread about a brutal mass murder?

demfad

tayto lover wrote: »

I hope they do rest in peace.
For the surviving family members it will be quite different though. Wondering about little things that happened, little hints dropped but not picked up on immediately, little warning signs that things were not well with the marriage, little bouts of quietness and fear especially when the big bad wolf was around etc etc.

Everyone was fooled by this guy and he had the parish priest batting for him at every turn. Our culture puts 'pillar of society' beyond scrutiny. There was tragedy in that family before so any bouts of quietness could have been rationalised on that.
Good on them for getting out and raising awareness to help other people now. It's all they can do and a very positive thing to do.

infogiver

demfad wrote: »

Linked already several times:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017






The reports I quoted were either to the media from official Garda sources or from actual family members. Not speculation.
The view of Hawe as extremely patriarcal comes from the priests own words and his explanation of the momento on his funeral coffin.
The view of Clodagh and other family members comes from her relation and from quotes from neighbours. If you believe that this mass murder should not be commented on in any media before the inquest that id your view. The gardai, judiciary, politicians, public certainly don't share it.

You have repeatedly raised the idea of mental illness as a possible explanation. Again have you any substantiation for this point of view. Any statement from the Gardai to corrobarate it for example?
Didn't think so. Earlier in this thread you made the false claim that the priest did not have any say in the burial arrangements.
Will you show integrity now and back up your assertions with atleast some reasoning on a thread about a brutal mass murder?

So your back up, your source, your evidence is an article in the Daily Mirror ?
Do you know how that makes you look?
And your still using the word integrity?
I must insist now once again that you quote specifically every time I posted that Alan Hawe was suffering from mental illness.
You have now twice alleged that I did, which would be speculation, which a mod has forbidden.
So I need you to show the posts where I speculated that he was mentally ill please, thank you.

demfad

infogiver wrote: »

So your back up, your source, your evidence is an article in the Daily Mirror ?
Do you know how that makes you look?

My evidence for stating that the family claimed him guilty of domestic violence is a paper (that the family have consistently used since the massacre) which QUOTES them as saying he was guilty of domestic violence.
If you believe that this paper has fabricated this then please supply us substantiation for this sensational claim. Have the family refuted it elsewhere for example?

So I need you to show the posts where I speculated that he was mentally ill please, thank you.

Your words below: You are offering mental illness as a possibility with no substantiation=speculation

infogiver wrote: »

I think this is part of the problem that Tayto lover and others have with these tragedies.
I know it's unbelievable, but lots of people just don't accept that mental illness is a "thing".
Even after all this time, even after all the evidence, they just don't believe it.
No such thing as depression ( pull yourself together, what have you got to be depressed about, there's others worse off than you...)
No such thing as stress, anxiety bi polar or even schizophrenia.
It's all made up pretentious rubbish.
People looking for "notice ".
People are never "mad" they're just "bad".
It makes me despair.

infogiver

demfad wrote: »

My evidence for stating that the family claimed him guilty of domestic violence is a paper (that the family have consistently used since the massacre) which QUOTES them as saying he was guilty of domestic violence.
If you believe that this paper has fabricated this then please supply us substantiation for this sensational claim. Have the family refuted it elsewhere for example?




Your words below: You are offering mental illness as a possibility with no substantiation=speculation

Demfad nowhere here have I stated that Alan Hawe was suffering from mental illness.
Enough already.
I've reported your post.
You could have apologised and admitted that your wrong but your not big enough.

fg1406

Mary Keegan case was similar to the Hawe case, where a mother stabbed her children to death and then took her own life after which the bodies lay undiscovered for at least a day, while her husband was away on business. Not condoning any of the behaviour of the perpetrators in either case, but I don't recall the level of vitriol being aimed at Alan Hawe, ever being laid at Mary Keegan.

I won't speculate as to the why's or make assumptions of abuse/domestic violence/mental illness as that's for garda investigations and inquests. I'm simply commenting on the viciousness of media/commentariat making judgments where they don't really have a place to. Only the families and the relevant authorities have that right.

demfad

fg1406 wrote: »

Mary Keegan case was similar to the Hawe case, where a mother stabbed her children to death and then took her own life after which the bodies lay undiscovered for at least a day, while her husband was away on business. Not condoning any of the behaviour of the perpetrators in either case, but I don't recall the level of vitriol being aimed at Alan Hawe, ever being laid at Mary Keegan.

If you have been following this case you would have realised that the media eulogised the killer along with the clergy, local organisations, teachers Unions etc. etc. The story was that this was a decent man who must have snapped.

I won't speculate as to the why's or make assumptions of abuse/domestic violence/mental illness as that's for garda investigations and inquests. I'm simply commenting on the viciousness of media/commentariat making judgments where they don't really have a place to. Only the families and the relevant authorities have that right.

No assumptions:

The GARDAI have said that Alan Hawe butchered his family, they gave the order of killing, and they revealed that he had left a note 'explaining' his actions. They said that there was absolutely no evidence or history of mental illness nor did he seem to be acting unusually up until the massacre.

The FAMILY First via a relative and later via Clodagh Hawe's Mother and daughter came out and revealed that Alan Hawe had been guilty of domestic violence.

infogiver

demfad wrote: »

If you have been following this case you would have realised that the media eulogised the killer along with the clergy, local organisations, teachers Unions etc. etc. The story was that this was a decent man who must have snapped.



No assumptions:

The GARDAI have said that Alan Hawe butchered his family, they gave the order of killing, and they revealed that he had left a note 'explaining' his actions. They said that there was absolutely no evidence or history of mental illness nor did he seem to be acting unusually up until the massacre.

The FAMILY First via a relative and later via Clodagh Hawe's Mother and daughter came out and revealed that Alan Hawe had been guilty of domestic violence.

So there's no need for an inquest then is there demfad?
You have decided that we all know all we need to know about this tragedy, the families and wider community have no further questions, there's to be no further discussion, the Daily Mirror reported on some info that their journalists picked up after "doorstepping" some villagers.
You've obviously seen what Hawe wrote in the notes, your just not revealing what it is because.....blah blah.
Tell me, why do you think that we even bother having inquests when all the investigating can be done by the Daily Mirror ?
Also, did you ever find any post of mine which stated that Alan Hawe suffered from mental illness? Thought not.

demfad

infogiver wrote: »

So there's no need for an inquest then is there demfad?
You have decided that we all know all we need to know about this tragedy, the families and wider community have no further questions, there's to be no further discussion, the Daily Mirror reported on some info that their journalists picked up after "doorstepping" some villagers.
You've obviously seen what Hawe wrote in the notes, your just not revealing what it is because.....blah blah.
Tell me, why do you think that we even bother having inquests when all the investigating can be done by the Daily Mirror ?
Also, did you ever find any post of mine which stated that Alan Hawe suffered from mental illness? Thought not.

I'm claiming there should be no inquest now am I? Ok, I wont be replying to strawman posts similar to the above, as anyone can see that for what it is.

That said whatever your agenda, if you try and post serious misinformation again on this thread i will challenge it.

PS Ive already posted where you have speculated about mental illness in regards to this case.

Boom_Bap

demfad and infogiver

Can you please be more civil in the discussion please? That would make it nicer for, you know, everyone else.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod:

Due to the fact that everything relating to this case that can be discussed has already been discussed, along with the sheer number of reported posts from this thread, we have decided to close the thread for now. It hasn't been about the case in Cavan for a long time and has become a conduit for discussing similar cases, domestic abuse in general and tit-for-tat bickering.

However, if anything new relating to this case comes up (court verdict, etc), please PM a mod and we will consider reopening it.