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5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

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Comments

  • #252
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Lisha wrote: »
    Clodagh
    Mary63 wrote: »
    Clodagh
    Tasden wrote: »
    they were dismissing the value of Clodaghs life.

    Why are people referring to this woman in first name terms like they knew her personally?


  • #253
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,059 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Tasden wrote: »
    They did so in the first paragraph when referring to the family tragedy. They didn't name her specifically as she was not a staff member in the school. If there had been other children who didn't attend the school they probably wouldn't have been mentioned by name. It was a badly written statement in hindsight, but I really don't think they were dismissing the value of Clodaghs life or minimising the tragedy of her death in any way, they just specifically named those personally known to the school and she was the only one who was not. Badly thought out statement but I don't think it was due to them only caring about him and the kids, moreso they were named due to their direct connection with the school.

    Sorry that is BS.

    Imagine how Clodagh Hawe's parents feel now that she is dead, a member of the teaching community and didn't even get a mention. WTF. Sorry that is just not on.

    There is more to this isn't there? Well that's what many will be thinking now due to the Principal's badly thought out statement.

    Imagine that the mother and wife of the murderer is not even mentioned. I have to say I am gobsmacked.


  • #254
    toptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭toptom


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Why are people referring to this woman in first name terms like they knew her personally?

    Its no offense that posters are using her name, The poor woman but you on the other hand, Using the lords name in vain


  • #255
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,059 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Why does this make you emotional Miss?

    Foxtrot Oscar.


  • #256
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,157 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Why are people referring to this woman in first name terms like they knew her personally?

    Because she has been airbrushed away by media

    http://www.linneadunne.com/2016/08/31/rest-in-peace-invisible-woman/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #257
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Why are people referring to this woman in first name terms like they knew her personally?

    Would you prefer we refer to her as his wife?

    She had a name, it hasn't been used nearly enough.


  • #258
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Sorry that is BS.

    Imagine how Clodagh's parents feel now that she is dead, a member of the teaching community and didn't even get a mention. WTF. Sorry that is just not on.

    There is more to this isn't there? Well that's what many will be thinking now due to the Principal's badly thought out statement.

    Imagine that the mother and wife of the murderer is not even mentioned. I have to say I am gobsmacked.

    The school are grieving too. As it said in the statement, three boys the school knew well have died and they will miss them. A man who was a valued member of the school committed the horrific act.
    It's easy for us to criticise a statement that was made on the day they found out, and say they should have done x y and z (which i fully agree with btw, of course she should have been named) but we are not grieving to the extent that they are, we are not responsible for the well being of how many children who have to live through this tragedy.
    Condolences were expressed and they explicitly named those who were directly involved with the school. I can see how it would be hurtful and how it is badly written, and I agree with that, but I'm not going to rant about the insensitivity of a poorly written statement by a principal who is probably in shock herself. She personally knew the people named in the statement and she had just heard the news herself.

    Also, it is a press release, they were probably clarifying their link with the people involved, as would be asked by the media etc. Hence them naming them specifically.


  • #259
    Wigglepuppy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭Wigglepuppy


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Because she has been airbrushed away by media

    http://www.linneadunne.com/2016/08/31/rest-in-peace-invisible-woman/
    I don't think it was deliberate. I saw that article and find it loathsome that this horrific atrocity is used as a platform to talk about the patriarchy.


  • #260
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,157 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Wigglepuppy wrote: »
    I don't think it was deliberate. I saw that article and find it loathsome that this horrific atrocity is used as a platform to talk about the patriarchy.

    I think the complete opposite. Its completely refreshing to hear what is said in that article compared to the mainstream media discourse.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #261
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Yellow pack crisps wrote: »
    You're quite right in your assessment. Its actually disturbing the way the reporting has been carried out in this murderous event. The 'Star' of the show is being paid homage while the victims are just that: Victims.

    Ian Huntley is a hated figure for murdering those two girls and rightfully so and it seems like the only difference here is that this man killed himself as if that is some sort of justification. Its not. My own personal view is that he is no different. A murderer and a child killer. A coward who would not seek the help he obviously needed and instead took the lives of the innocent.

    I have all the empathy in the world for people with mental health issues and people who take their own life. I don't have empathy for people who murder and especially if those victims of murder are children.

    There is quite world of a difference between a cold blooded psychopath like Ian Huntley who probably raped those girls before he slaughtered and buried them and a loving Dad who has lost his mind and can't go on and takes his own life and the lives of his family.


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  • #262
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    There is quite world of a difference between a cold blooded psychopath like Ian Huntley who probably raped those girls before he slaughtered and buried them and a loving Dad who has lost his mind and can't go on and takes his own life and the lives of his family.

    A loving dad doesn't take a hatchet and a knife to three little boys because he can't go on.

    A loving dad does everything he can so that his children go on, no matter what.


  • #263
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    There is quite world of a difference between a cold blooded psychopath like Ian Huntley who probably raped those girls before he slaughtered and buried them and a loving Dad who has lost his mind and can't go on and takes his own life and the lives of his family.

    Would you stop with the loving dad stuff. A loving dad doesn't take a hatchet to his children or their mum.


  • #264
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    There is quite world of a difference between a cold blooded psychopath like Ian Huntley who probably raped those girls before he slaughtered and buried them and a loving Dad who has lost his mind and can't go on and takes his own life and the lives of his family.

    There's a world of difference between Alan Hawe and a loving father.


  • #265
    Mary63
    Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Mary63


    Had he been previously principal of the school.

    I read on another site that a parent had made reference to this..


  • #266
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Candie wrote: »
    Would you prefer we refer to her as his wife?

    Yes that would be more appropriate. Using her first name when one never knew her sounds weird tbh.


  • #267
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Candie wrote: »
    How is it appropriate to bury the victims with their murderer? I can't understand peoples thinking on this. :(

    Forgiveness? Maybe you should acquaint yourself with Christianity and rural Ireland? Irish country folk are forgiving loving and decent people. They know Alan Hawe was not in his right mind and they see him as a victim too and pray for his soul and the souls of his poor wife and kids who died because his act of madness.


  • #268
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Schools aren't Gardai, coroners, judges or internet forum experts. The school made a statement about the tragic loss of a teacher and three pupils, which is all they can do. It might be poorly worded but I'd love to say how any of you fireside lawyers could do any better in the same situation


  • #269
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,059 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I wonder about the evidence of MH issues in many of these cases.

    That might sound insensitive, but there possibly could be a history of control, emotional, financial or physical abuse, and the minute the abused partner says "it's over", all hell breaks loose, and the absolute control happens.

    We need to be aware of the potential for controllers to get out of control.

    Happens.


  • #270
    Yellow pack crisps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 564 ✭✭✭Yellow pack crisps


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    There is quite world of a difference between a cold blooded psychopath like Ian Huntley who probably raped those girls before he slaughtered and buried them and a loving Dad who has lost his mind and can't go on and takes his own life and the lives of his family.

    No difference whats so ever. Both child killers.


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  • #271
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    There's a world of difference between Alan Hawe and a loving father.

    Hawe like other murder suicides committed his final desperate act out of love. In his madness he felt it was merciful to take their lives too. That's the case in all these tragedies.


  • #272
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Wigglepuppy wrote: »
    I don't think it was deliberate. I saw that article and find it loathsome that this horrific atrocity is used as a platform to talk about the patriarchy.

    Agreed. Feminism has to get its spake in. Not surprising really


  • #273
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    Forgiveness? Maybe you should acquaint yourself with Christianity and rural Ireland? Irish country folk are forgiving loving and decent people. They know Alan Hawe was not in his right mind and they see him as a victim too and pray for his soul and the souls of his poor wife and kids who died because his act of madness.

    You don't know the first thing about how anyone in either family feels about this.


  • #274
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    Hawe like other murder suicides committed his final desperate act out of love. In his madness he felt it was merciful to take their lives too. That's the case in all these tragedies.

    Naive or trolling?


  • #275
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Yellow pack crisps wrote: »
    No difference whats so ever. Both child killers.

    Yes there is a difference and you know it.


  • #276
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I wonder about the evidence of MH issues in many of these cases.That might sound insensitive, but there possibly could be a history of control, emotional, financial or physical abuse, and the minute the abused partner says "it's over", all hell breaks loose, and the absolute control happens.We need to be aware of the potential for controllers to get out of control. Happens.

    Certainly possible. Or the woman wasn't liked & that's why she wasn't mentioned by the school. Perhaps folk thought what was a nice guy like him doing with a rottweiler like her? Maybe they think he cracked under her pressure. We just don't know


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  • #277
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Agreed. Feminism has to get its spake in. Not surprising really

    It's got nothing to do with feminism. Clodagh was a person in her own right outside of her marriage. The fact that she died at the hands of her husband makes it even more inappropriate to refer to her as his wife. All four victims deserve to be recognised as the individuals they were.


  • #278
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,084 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Certainly possible. Or the woman wasn't liked & that's why she wasn't mentioned by the school. Perhaps folk thought what was a nice guy like him doing with a rottweiler like her? Maybe they think he cracked under her pressure. We just don't know

    Ah FFS.

    Not your ornery onager



  • #279
    Hrududu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭Hrududu


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    Hawe like other murder suicides committed his final desperate act out of love. In his madness he felt it was merciful to take their lives too. That's the case in all these tragedies.

    I'm sorry but you have no proof that this is true


  • #280
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    eviltwin wrote: »
    You don't know the first thing about how anyone in either family feels about this.

    By burying them together they leave the final judgement up to God. That's consistent with the rural Ireland I know.


  • #281
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Esel wrote: »
    Ah FFS.

    Not possible?


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  • #282
    Wigglepuppy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭Wigglepuppy


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I think the complete opposite. Its completely refreshing to hear what is said in that article compared to the mainstream media discourse.
    If it's true rather than conspiracy theory scraping the bottom of the barrel. You've people like the writer of that piece, and then you've the crowd saying men are depicted as monsters in cases like this whereas women who kill their families are depicted as fragile and possibly having post natal depression. Meanwhile those with sense can see there isn't a deliberate strategy to demonise or neglect either gender.
    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    a loving Dad who has lost his mind and can't go on and takes his own life and the lives of his family.
    You don't know this for certain at all.


  • #283
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Hrududu wrote: »
    I'm sorry but you have no proof that this is true

    Read the psychiatric literature on this phenomenon.


  • #284
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Yes that would be more appropriate. Using her first name when one never knew her sounds weird tbh.

    And referring to her as his wife is inappropriate, since he was her murderer and she was his victim. She shouldn't be solely known by her relationship to her killer.

    She had a name, a name that's barely been mentioned in the media while we've all been hearing what a stand-up guy the child killer who also murdered her was. We all know his name, she deserves to be known by hers.


  • #285
    Yellow pack crisps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 564 ✭✭✭Yellow pack crisps


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    Yes there is a difference and you know it.

    I honestly don't. Just because he was their father should not absolve him of a heinous act. He killed his wife and three children. I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I am stating that he is a murderer first and a suicide victim second. His wife and kids did not choose death. He chose for them and that is murder.


  • #286
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Candie wrote: »
    And referring to her as his wife is inappropriate, since he was her murderer and she was his victim. She shouldn't be solely known by her relationship to her killer.She had a name, a name that's barely been mentioned in the media while we've all been hearing what a stand-up guy the child killer who also murdered her was. We all know his name, she deserves to be known by hers.

    Mrs Howe then. First name terms should be reserved for people you know. Nobody here ever heard of the girl 3 days ago.


  • #287
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Hrududu wrote: »
    I'm sorry but you have no proof that this is true

    When the letter he wrote is made public I am certain my view will be bourne out.


  • #288
    Amanda.ie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 185 ✭✭Amanda.ie


    Candie wrote: »
    And referring to her as his wife is inappropriate, since he was her murderer and she was his victim. She shouldn't be solely known by her relationship to her killer.

    She had a name, a name that's barely been mentioned in the media while we've all been hearing what a stand-up guy the child killer who also murdered her was. We all know his name, she deserves to be known by hers.

    For pity sake, she was his wife, he was her husband, he was the children's father. What is the point to this?


  • #289
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,157 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Amanda.ie wrote: »
    For pity sake, she was his wife, he was her husband, he was the children's father. What is the point to this?

    The point is Clodagh was a murder victim that has been airbrushed out of all media reports. While her husband has been lionised as a wonderful man..

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #290
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Mrs Howe then. First name terms should be reserved for people you know. Nobody here ever heard of the girl 3 days ago.

    The whole point of a name is so that you can refer to the person.


  • #291
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Yellow pack crisps wrote: »
    I honestly don't. Just because he was their father should not absolve him of a heinous act. He killed his wife and three children. I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I am stating that he is a murderer first and a suicide victim second. His wife and kids did not choose death. He chose for them and that is murder.

    You were comparing him to a sadistic psychopathic murderer who raped and slaughtered two little girls.

    Hawe as I see it is a victim of mental illness. A man who was not in his right mind.

    There is an entirely different level of culpability.


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  • #292
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,157 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Mrs Howe then. First name terms should be reserved for people you know. Nobody here ever heard of the girl 3 days ago.

    Clodagh wasnt a girl.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #293
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The point is Clodagh was a murder victim that has been airbrushed out of all media reports. While her husband has been lionised as a wonderful man..

    I don't think that's been the case


  • #294
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Clodagh was a murder victim that has been airbrushed out of all media reports.

    I think we've just had an example of the kind of thinking that leads to reports that don't even bother to name a victim, while telling us everything about their killer.

    Sure, why bother referring to her by name when we can just call her his wife? She doesn't need to be an individual at all.


  • #295
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Clodagh wasnt a girl.

    WTF?


  • #296
    Elliott S
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭Elliott S


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    Schools aren't Gardai, coroners, judges or internet forum experts. The school made a statement about the tragic loss of a teacher and three pupils, which is all they can do. It might be poorly worded but I'd love to say how any of you fireside lawyers could do any better in the same situation

    Oh would you stop. Very easy to mention her too in the statement, even briefly.


  • #297
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The point is Clodagh was a murder victim that has been airbrushed out of all media reports. While her husband has been lionised as a wonderful man..

    He was a wonderful man. A wonderful man who lost his mind and killed himself and his family. It could happen to anyone.


  • #298
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,157 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Jesus. wrote: »
    I don't think that's been the case

    This isnt about your thoughts here.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #299
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    He was a wonderful man. A wonderful man who lost his mind and killed himself and his family. It could happen to anyone.

    :pac:


  • #300
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    This isnt about your thoughts here.

    What???


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  • #301
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,157 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    He was a wonderful man. A wonderful man who lost his mind and killed himself and his family. It could happen to anyone.

    It really couldnt. Why is there a need to excuse his murders?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



This discussion has been closed.
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