Youths Rioting -ERU deployed(mod warning in op)

mariaalice

why don't the children/young adults and their parents or guardians sue the state for care and support to be provided in a setting that does not house young adult violent criminals as well. No adult who was in need of therapeutic care or mental health care would put up with being told...your care will be provided in a setting housing violent criminals as well.

Letree

The youth currently housed in that centre will likely be a scourge on our society. They will end up costing us a fortune through crime, incarceration, welfare and legal aid. Just a thought.

livedadream

Letree wrote: »

The youth currently housed in that centre will likely be a scourge on our society. They will end up costing us a fortune through crime, incarceration, welfare and legal aid. Just a thought.

you need to have a chat with musketeer on this thread,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057639344&page=22

he wants them apprehended before they even commit a crime...

tomofson

Drumorig wrote: »

Someone reported me so ill leave you ******s alone, im out...

A lot of the posters on here can't handle a difference in opinion.

L.Jenkins

Staff say they fear for their safety. What do they expect, when they work in a facility that houses hooligans, whose ability to function in society is questionable at best.

The witness added there had been consternation in the area after the previous break-out attempt earlier this month in which teenage inmates armed with golf clubs and a ladder they stole from a storeroom attacked staff and then scaled the 30ft perimeter wall, All five were quickly arrested but local people said it was lucky they were caught so quickly.

Any sane minded person would fear for their safety in such a place, especially when they keep golf clubs on site, even if they are locked away.

twowheelsonly

Drumorig wrote: »

Passengers v prisoners. A bit of a difference there.

Same thing happened in belmarsh, cutbacks lead to staff inciting/letting it happen for more money. It's a fairly common theme in prisons worldwide.

It's about getting the media on board to justify more money. None of the staff would be surprised at what happened.

You really don't have a clue how things work do you ?
How much money are you talking about ? At what level of wages does it become acceptable to get assaulted whilst going about your working day ? You really think that staff anywhere really want to be involved in a riot ?
I've been in that situation and it's not something that I'd care to repeat anytime soon.

Read this from a month ago..

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/oberstown-youth-detention-centre-staff-frightened-they-may-be-killed-at-work-31429080.html


The people working in this place don't really have a clue and are not trained how to deal with violent disruptive prisoners. It's not their fault. Probation and Welfare would be classed as a 'caring' profession. They've been doing that for years up there but all of a sudden they have fellas that should be in jail landed on their doorstep and they're in the news every week. Put them back in jail where they belong and let the P&W staff get on with dealing the genuinely 'sad' cases whilst the jailers deal with the bad guys.

What really surprises me is that they have 200 staff up there !!

um7y1h83ge06nx

It may have seemed extreme to send in the ERU but in 1987 the SAS were sent into a Scottish prison to rescue prison wardens and put down a riot - link

If you google it it seems that they may have beaten the sh*t out of many prisoners, they definitely didn't go softly softly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/sas-man-denies-violent-lesson-1481657.html

Gatling

Edward Microscopic Tutu wrote: »

It may have seemed extreme to send in the ERU but in 1987 the SAS were sent into a Scottish prison to rescue prison wardens and put down a riot

The ARW (Army Ranger Wing) were deployed to mountjoy aswell after hostages were taken when word go to the prisoners they surrendered

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sleepy wrote: »

Could an "accident" with the fire hose not take care of the lads on the roof?

An "accident", like 'accidently' passing burning fuel through the hose instead of water ~ or are flame throwers frowned upon by the PC brigade?.

Mod-Banned

Jawgap

Kaden Gray Termination wrote: »

An "accident", like 'accidently' passing burning fuel through the hose instead of water ~ or are flame throwers frowned upon by the PC brigade?.

A mate of mine is a firefighter and I asked him once if he'd not be tempted to turn the hose on people who take to attacking them when they arrive to tackle a fire - typically a bonfire at Hallowe'en and he said it simply wasn't worth it - an 'accident' like that would cost you your career and most probably your job.

I'd say in this situation if they are still on the roof, the best bet would be to leave them......they'll soon get hungry;)

Rakish Paddy

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd say in this situation if they are still on the roof, the best bet would be to leave them......they'll soon get hungry;)

Then the feral scum can be lured down with snack boxes:
http://www.thejournal.ie/prisoners-cloverhill-snack-box-2253459-Aug2015/

nullzero

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Then the feral scum can be lured down with snack boxes:
http://www.thejournal.ie/prisoners-cloverhill-snack-box-2253459-Aug2015/

Should have laced the chips with laxatives.

foggy_lad

Drumorig wrote: »

God love them, did they think they were getting jobs as teachers or something.

Common sense will tell you what they done will cause a backlash, the staff and unions knew this. To say they didn't would be naive.

That is exactly what their job is in Oberstown, they are not prison officers or wardens and are not trained in restraining violent offenders, they are trained to deal with less troublesome "young people" who may have quite serious issues in their lives that require care and compassion.

The problem is that the government has been sending much older and seriously violent hardened criminals with anger and mental health issues to this care home without the staff to handle them!

Staff are not allowed to hit or properly restrain these criminals and they know it! When one of these headbangers loses the plot the staff are supposed to retreat to a safe place and wait for the situation to calm down.

L.Jenkins wrote: »

Staff say they fear for their safety. What do they expect, when they work in a facility that houses hooligans, whose ability to function in society is questionable at best.



Any sane minded person would fear for their safety in such a place, especially when they keep golf clubs on site, even if they are locked away.

After the serious assaults on staff and break-out last week 4 staff members were suspended, probably for protecting themselves or for not preventing the break-out.

The minister for justice has nothing to do with this place and the inmates are mostly too old violent and too deep in the criminal world to be treated as children but the department for children still took this place under its remit!

the minister and department provide no support for the staff and will never back the staff over the criminals!

Rakish Paddy

nullzero wrote: »

Should have laced the chips with laxatives.

Or cyanide.

Wigglepuppy

tomofson wrote: »

Don't even try talking sense into the likes of that, those people never see the error in their ways... They want to see disadvantaged people beating for their own amusement says it all really.... The same way poor people used to be publicly hanged in england for stealing loafs of bread and rich peoples hats the likes of that individual would love to live in those times... The only downfall would be he couldn't pent hes inherent social economic snobbery over an internet forum which accepts and encourages it to the fullest...

Ok I know stuff like "bring back firing squads" is just provocative and "carry out public floggings" is not constructive, I also disagree that the softly softly approach to violent criminals is "the PC liberal brigade" - it's legislation and insufficient police resources.

But the rest of what you say - seriously. Only you are the one referring to their background. Everyone else here is referring to their behaviour, not where they are from at all. It's quite patronising to be honest to abdicate responsibility from someone based on their background - it's as if they are incapable of holding accountability because of where they are from. What about all the other people (the majority) from disadvantaged backgrounds who don't resort to violent crime sprees?

Saying people are looking for them to be punished merely because they are disadvantaged (and not because of their violent crimes) is incredibly dishonest - and it's baffling that you don't even take into consideration what they have done. And to compare them to desperately poor people who were hanged for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their families in days of yore is incredibly inaccurate. Those people did not terrorise and assault others, they were driven to desperate measures. That was a time when there were no supports whatsoever for the marginalised, they were left to rot. People like social workers try to help the people this story is about - many start off with the same view as you - only to be met with hostility.

I have no doubt that their difficult upbringings are the reason for their anger, but they are still responsible for their own behaviour.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Jawgap wrote: »

A mate of mine is a firefighter and I asked him once if he'd not be tempted to turn the hose on people who take to attacking them when they arrive to tackle a fire - typically a bonfire at Hallowe'en and he said it simply wasn't worth it - an 'accident' like that would cost you your career and most probably your job.

I'd say in this situation if they are still on the roof, the best bet would be to leave them......they'll soon get hungry;)

But you could make the roof a little slippery :P

FGR

People give out about how America has the highest prison population in the world.

I'll put it this way - The reason why we don't have something similar is due to the leniency of the judiciary in conjunction with the lack of prison spaces and the revolving door system that goes with it.

I would much rather have dangerous people kept away from the public for as long as possible so as to keep them safe from future harm by the same people.

The recidivism rate in Ireland during 2013 was 62.3% as per The Penal Reform Trust. Sure some people make mistakes but a majority of criminals are just that, criminals. The rates are higher if you include the number of times people have received the benefit of cautions as juveniles, first time offenders via adult caution and after the further opportunity of probation by the courts.

The only element of the Justice system that is trying to put the victim first is not the judicial system or the penal system, but the gardaí - and why bother when the criminal gets a slap on the wrist?

Oops69

i can't believe there's 2OO staff employed there, then again if SIPTU is running the place most will be on sick leave/ compassion leave / thinking about getting better leave , thinking about going on sick leave leave , someone-said-boo- to - me leave etc.etc. etc. bull**** excuse leave , so that number is probably accurate .

Gatling

Oops69 wrote: »

i can't believe there's 2OO staff employed there,

At any time around 30-40 are on sick leave

Gatling

foggy_lad wrote: »

The problem is that the government has been sending much older and seriously violent hardened criminals with anger and mental health issues to this care home without the staff to handle them

It's not a care home ,

It's a juvenile Detention centre and the majority are there due to be sentenced to be there by a judge for committing crimes against people ,

It should be treated as just that , except now it needs to be treated as a prison , uniforms and chains if need be ,
This mollycoddling has to end ,

Where else do prisoners get gifted designer trainers and track suits and yet victims of there crimes get a sob story about a hard life

SILVAMAN

moc moc a moc wrote: »

Sending the ERU in is retarded. What are they going to do, start shooting people? If it's a riot, then send in riot police to baton the bollix out of them.

Unfortunately a generation of vicious criminals has been allowed to grow up and the only thing they respect is someone more violent than themselves.
Time to wield the baton where criminality is involved.

Donald Trump

Oops69 wrote: »

i can't believe there's 2OO staff employed there, then again if SIPTU is running the place most will be on sick leave/ compassion leave / thinking about getting better leave , thinking about going on sick leave leave , someone-said-boo- to - me leave etc.etc. etc. bull**** excuse leave , so that number is probably accurate .

Yeah don't worry about it man. Lots of people are shite at maths and basic logic.

imagine a relatively simple to understand job like a guard that has to man/open a front gate. I'd imagine something like that is fairly mandatory for a prison environment. Unless you are going to suggest they just have someone there from 9-5 M-F and leave it open the rest of the time. :pac:

Say the average staff gets 4 weeks annual leave which leaves 48 weeks for working. . (4 weeks + 9 public holidays is the statutory minimum. Reference) And suppose a 40 hour working week. That means that average staff will work 48*40 - 9*8 = 1848 hours per year. But there are 365*24=8760 hours in a year. So to man that single position you need 4.75 full time staff minimum.

What numbers would you expect? 10 people? You'll have other ancillary positions too like secretaries and handymen etc. And teachers and social workers who won't be on 24 hours although there probably has to be some social worker type people there on a 24 hour basis too. But once you have a 24 hour role, you must be talking about 5 full time staff to fill that rule.

tomofson

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Ok I know stuff like "bring back firing squads" is just provocative and "carry out public floggings" is not constructive, I also disagree that the softly softly approach to violent criminals is "the PC liberal brigade" - it's legislation and insufficient police resources.

But the rest of what you say - seriously. Only you are the one referring to their background. Everyone else here is referring to their behaviour, not where they are from at all. It's quite patronising to be honest to abdicate responsibility from someone based on their background - it's as if they are incapable of holding accountability because of where they are from. What about all the other people (the majority) from disadvantaged backgrounds who don't resort to violent crime sprees?

Saying people are looking for them to be punished merely because they are disadvantaged (and not because of their violent crimes) is incredibly dishonest - and it's baffling that you don't even take into consideration what they have done. And to compare them to desperately poor people who were hanged for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their families in days of yore is incredibly inaccurate. Those people did not terrorise and assault others, they were driven to desperate measures. That was a time when there were no supports whatsoever for the marginalised, they were left to rot. People like social workers try to help the people this story is about - many start off with the same view as you - only to be met with hostility.

I have no doubt that their difficult upbringings are the reason for their anger, but they are still responsible for their own behaviour.

I am the only one referencing their backgrounds because for most of the posters on here it is an underline subconscious issue, they may not even realize they have it or may not have even given it much of a thought... I am just trying to challenge these peoples mental thinking so they can change for the better and nothing worsen the situation...

TheNap

Imagine you are a qualified social worker but then are asked to deal with a number of 19 year old violent criminals with serious mental health issues .

No protection . No riot gear . Most employees middle aged men and women .

How the government allowed this to happen I'll never know . I'm just surprised that a worker hasn't been killed yet

tomofson

TheNap wrote: »

Imagine you are a qualified social worker but then are asked to deal with a number of 19 year old violent criminals with serious mental health issues .

No protection . No riot gear . Most employees middle aged men and women .

How the government allowed this to happen I'll never know . I'm just surprised that a worker hasn't been killed yet

There is no 19 year olds there.

TheNap

tomofson wrote: »

There is no 19 year olds there.

Sorry 18

Wigglepuppy

Oops69 wrote: »

i can't believe there's 2OO staff employed there, then again if SIPTU is running the place most will be on sick leave/ compassion leave / thinking about getting better leave , thinking about going on sick leave leave , someone-said-boo- to - me leave etc.etc. etc. bull**** excuse leave , so that number is probably accurate .

Why do people just post provocative drivel for a reaction? Boredom I guess. It seems such a tedious thing to bother doing.

tomofson wrote: »

I am the only one referencing their backgrounds because for most of the posters on here it is an underline subconscious issue, they may not even realize they have it or may not have even given it much of a thought...

That is nothing other than an assumption.

tomofson

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Why do people just post provocative drivel for a reaction? Boredom I guess. It seems such a tedious thing to bother doing.

That is nothing other than an assumption.

An assumption that has very real potential to be an actual fact.

Wigglepuppy

tomofson wrote: »

An assumption that has very real potential to be an actual fact.

So again, an assumption.
Acknowledging the acts that have landed these guys in the centre is not judging their background, not acknowledging those acts is abdicating responsibility from them.

mariaalice

http://humanrights.ie/constitution-of-ireland/st-patricks-institution-report-some-thoughts/.



http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015121400018?opendocument


Its all to do with Ireland attempting to ratify the UN declaration of human rights.

Sending someone under 18 to a prison is not right in a modern society, yet at the same time the issue is very complex when dealing with extremity violent young offenders.

mariaalice

I know this is never going to happen however:

Any legal theorist or social science theorist anyone involved in writing reports or in involved in human and civil rights as a career, or lectures in the same area ( careers which can be both lucrative, and sought after ) should be obliged to work on the front-line for at least 6 months), implementing their recommendations. They should be obliged to consider the contradictions inherent in the issues they are publishing about.

Gatling

mariaalice wrote: »

Sending someone under 18 to a prison is not right in a modern society, yet at the same time the issue is very complex when dealing with extremity violent young offenders.

So what do you do ,
Mollycoddling has failed,

We need to now say that for the most part there sent to oberstown because of criminal activity plain and simple,
Prison style rules and regulations and enforcement is seriously required

mariaalice

The United Kingdom has three separate and distinct criminal justice systems: England & Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland. Young offenders are often dealt with by the Youth Offending Team.

In England & Wales the age of criminal responsibility is set at 10. Young offenders aged 10 to 17 (i.e. up to their eighteenth birthday) are classed as a juvenile offender. Between the ages of 18 and 21 (i.e. up to their twenty-first birthday) they are classed as young offenders. Offenders aged 21 and over are known as adult offenders.

In Scotland the age of criminal responsibility was formerly set at 8, one of the lowest ages of criminal responsibility in Europe. It has since been raised to 12 by the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, which received Royal Assent on 6 August 2010.[1][2]

In Northern Ireland it is 10.

Northern Europe[edit]
In Sweden, the age of criminal responsibility is set at 15 since 1902.[3]

Her Majesty's Young Offender Institution (or HMYOI) is a type of British prison intended for offenders aged between 18 and 20,[1] although some prisons (particularly Ashfield[2] and Huntercombe[3]) cater for younger offenders from ages 15 to 17, who are classed as juvenile offenders.[4] Typically those aged under 15 will be held in a Secure Children's Home and those over 15 will be held in either a Young Offender Institution or Secure Training Centre.[5] Generally a young offender is regarded as such until the date of their 21st or 22nd birthday, whereupon he or she will be sent to an adult prison or can remain in the YOI until they turn 22 if deemed appropriate.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Young_Offender_Institution

mariaalice

Gatling wrote: »

So what do you do ,
Mollycoddling has failed,

We need to now say that for the most part there sent to oberstown because of criminal activity plain and simple,
Prison style rules and regulations and enforcement is seriously required

How come everything is so black and white for you.

Its not a choice of mollycoddling or prison, maybe there are other ways of doing things, new ways of thinking and looking at issues.

um7y1h83ge06nx

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/staff-member-injured-in-oberstown-riots-needs-reconstructive-surgery-on-his-face-35010185.html

Staff member injured in Oberstown riots needs 'reconstructive surgery on his face'

A staff member injured in Monday night’s riot in Oberstown has been left needing plastic surgery. The man was attacked by up to eight teens who broke his nose. The man was also left with severe lacerations in his face and needs reconstructive surgery.

These are the people that deserve pity and these are the people whose voices should be heard, not "young people" who made a conscious decision to attack and slash him.

Gatling

Edward Microscopic Tutu wrote: »

These are the people that deserve pity and these are the people whose voices should be heard, not "young people" who made a conscious decision to attack and slash him.

Unfortunately we live with people whom believe hugs and mollycoddling makes its all better for our young thugs ,

God forbid we expect them to face any kind of consequences what's so ever

andekwarhola

Listening to somebody from the IPRT this morning, castigating the industrial action. It's a bit of an unlovable situation for the staff: basically being told to accept adverse conditions under blackmail (the kids have run amok solely because of you, etc) of sorts .

end of the road

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately we live with people whom believe hugs and mollycoddling makes its all better for our young thugs ,

we don't.

Gatling wrote: »

God forbid we expect them to face any kind of consequences what's so ever

i think you will find we do expect it.

twowheelsonly

end of the road wrote: »

we don't.

We do actually.

The Prison Service is practically run by Probation and Welfare nowadays.

The Minister for Justice is ex P&W. the head of the Prison Service and his No.2 are ex P&W. The Navy, Army and Gardai all have uniformed members at the top of their tree. Regardless of how they may have gotten there they all have the experience of working 'on the floor'. Probably 80%+ of the people running the Prison Service are civil servants and P&W Officers who have zero experience of working one on one with violent offenders or at the coalface in the prisons but they all have ideas on how it should be done.
Previous to this prisoners who played ball and treated staff with respect had no problems and had that respect reciprocated whilst those who kicked up and caused trouble were dealt with accordingly. Usually they wised up fairly quickly and most ended up playing ball. The general consensus amongst prisoners was that if you f***ed up then you deserved it and everyone understood that. There was a mutual understanding and for the most part it worked and everything ticked along nicely.
Nowadays it's like a race to see who can make the most complaints and which category of complaint they can make. (Forms to do so and special boxes to post them in are actually dotted throughout each prison !!) It's tippy-toes now for the staff which has had a detrimental effect on the effectiveness of prisons and the ability of staff to run them. It's P.C. gone too far.

end of the road

twowheelsonly wrote: »

We do actually.

The Prison Service is practically run by Probation and Welfare nowadays.

The Minister for Justice is ex P&W. the head of the Prison Service and his No.2 are ex P&W. The Navy, Army and Gardai all have uniformed members at the top of their tree. Regardless of how they may have gotten there they all have the experience of working 'on the floor'. Probably 80%+ of the people running the Prison Service are civil servants and P&W Officers who have zero experience of working one on one with violent offenders or at the coalface in the prisons but they all have ideas on how it should be done.
Previous to this prisoners who played ball and treated staff with respect had no problems and had that respect reciprocated whilst those who kicked up and caused trouble were dealt with accordingly. Usually they wised up fairly quickly and most ended up playing ball. The general consensus amongst prisoners was that if you f***ed up then you deserved it and everyone understood that. There was a mutual understanding and for the most part it worked and everything ticked along nicely.
Nowadays it's like a race to see who can make the most complaints and which category of complaint they can make. (Forms to do so and special boxes to post them in are actually dotted throughout each prison !!) It's tippy-toes now for the staff which has had a detrimental effect on the effectiveness of prisons and the ability of staff to run them. It's P.C. gone too far.

pc doesn't exist. again i keep having to repeat this but i'm happy to do so until people wake up. the prisons are ran the same today as they have been for years bar the adding of the complaint form system, which is better then prisoners rioting if they have an issue.

FGR

end of the road wrote: »

pc doesn't exist. bar the adding of the complaint form system, which is better then prisoners rioting if they have an issue.

So you think that if the complaint doesn't go in their favour that they'll go on their merry way?

JupiterKid

They may be young but these teenagers are violent offenders. They need to be dealt with accordingly. The facial injuries by a staff member show just how far these little thugs are prepared to go.

From looking at the website, it looks like Oberstown has indeed been run by PC luvvies who will only get bitten in the arse. We need to be tough with these offenders. Rehabilitation - yes, for sure but punishment as well.

FGR

JupiterKid wrote: »

Rehabilitation - yes, for sure but punishment as well.

A caveat has to be that rehabilitation will be provided once they're willing to engage in it and show positive outcomes.

Lads who sign up for courses just for the sake of additional benefits should be required to show results before being provided with same. It's gotten far too soft.

foggy_lad

JupiterKid wrote: »

They may be young but these teenagers are violent offenders. They need to be dealt with accordingly. The facial injuries by a staff member show just how far these little thugs are prepared to go.

From looking at the website, it looks like Oberstown has indeed been run by PC luvvies who will only get bitten in the arse. We need to be tough with these offenders. Rehabilitation - yes, for sure but punishment as well.

All the Joe Duffy types who only ever dealt with these "kids" through toughened perspex screens don't really have a clue what is going on in places like Oberstown.

These "kids" are not little or indeed kids in any meaningful sense of the word!

Many are over 6' and 14-18st and very fit because they are all wannabe MMA cage fighters(thugs).

As in other countries we need proper boot camps and for those who "face up" to staff they should be brought to the ground with non lethal beanbag rounds and locked into a suitable restraint chair where they can not injure themselves and more importantly cant injure anyone else, Spit hoods and gags should be readily available.

end of the road

FGR wrote: »

So you think that if the complaint doesn't go in their favour that they'll go on their merry way?

i'm sure some won't but if the prison is staffed properly then they will be able to deal with the offender.

JupiterKid wrote: »

They may be young but these teenagers are violent offenders. They need to be dealt with accordingly. The facial injuries by a staff member show just how far these little thugs are prepared to go.

From looking at the website, it looks like Oberstown has indeed been run by PC luvvies who will only get bitten in the arse. We need to be tough with these offenders. Rehabilitation - yes, for sure but punishment as well.

incorrect, it's ran by pc doesn't exist non lovies who have to operate within the rules and regulations.

FGR wrote: »

A caveat has to be that rehabilitation will be provided once they're willing to engage in it and show positive outcomes.

Lads who sign up for courses just for the sake of additional benefits should be required to show results before being provided with same. It's gotten far too soft.

it hasn't gotten one bit soft. your suggestion has all ready been implemented

foggy_lad wrote: »

All the Joe Duffy types who only ever dealt with these "kids" through toughened perspex screens don't really have a clue what is going on in places like Oberstown.

These "kids" are not little or indeed kids in any meaningful sense of the word!

Many are over 6' and 14-18st and very fit because they are all wannabe MMA cage fighters(thugs).

As in other countries we need proper boot camps and for those who "face up" to staff they should be brought to the ground with non lethal beanbag rounds and locked into a suitable restraint chair where they can not injure themselves and more importantly cant injure anyone else, Spit hoods and gags should be readily available.

all of that is all ready done. if people did research rather then believing the rags then they would actually know the reality. not the reality that the rags want you to believe.

JupiterKid

The Oberstown website states that visiting hours are from 10am to 5pm daily. That in itself sounds a bit soft to me. Helll, I was in alcohol rehab and visiting times were strictly 3-5 weekends only.

The wording on the website also suggests a "gently, gently" approach to these young violent offenders. I'm not suggesting bringing back beatings but there should be more punishment for these hooligans.

LW91

"Smithers, release the hounds!"

Samaris

As a matter of interest, how young is too young for some of the suggestions being made in this thread? The "killing them all" ones? Oberstown does or did take children as young as ten and yeah, I do have to say god knows what sort of life they've had when they're committing criminal acts by the age of ten.

It -is- difficult to rehabilitate teenagers. Especially as while there might be a rare few people "born evil"*, a lot of young teenagers who commit actually awful crimes (I'm not talking about loitering or shoplifting) have had the deck stacked against them throughout. If you're born into a family where drug-taking is the norm, socialisation and early childhood training is poor and nutrition may or may not be dodgy, the brain doesn't develop quite the way it should. Obviously this does not mean that they should be allowed to run wild and hurt other people. No-one is saying that. And it also doesn't mean that everyone who goes through these awful circumstances does or will commit crimes either. But it might be worth bearing in mind before going for the "kill them all and let God sort them out" solution.

Given that this is also completely illegal, people do have to work within the law. And it's -possible- that after decades of truly appalling systems for dealing with unwanted children (or young offenders), it's gone too far the other way. Without a lot more research, I couldn't say. Oberstown does or did seem to have an "unacceptably**" high recidivism rate (up to 75% at the time of the report), so something needs improvement, but I am unsure what. Unfortunately, if you take a bunch of mostly uneducated young criminals who have rarely to ever been trained and taught how to act like normal people and subject them to the sort of punishment this thread is diving for, all you'll probably be doing to them is more of the same (plus fire hose. Most people don't have access to a fire hose). As can be seen in the case histories of some of them, that hasn't worked so far.



*Jō 'Kamisaku' comes to mind.
**I put that in inverted commas because I'm quoting an official HIPA (?) report on the place

Little CuChulainn

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately we live with people whom believe hugs and mollycoddling makes its all better for our young thugs ,

We don't just live with them, we are governed by them. FG have made the juvenile justice system into a farce. It was never perfect but it use to be much more effective at rehabilitation.

Little CuChulainn

Samaris wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how young is too young for some of the suggestions being made in this thread? The "killing them all" ones? Oberstown does or did take children as young as ten and yeah, I do have to say god knows what sort of life they've had when they're committing criminal acts by the age of ten.

The only reason someone of the age of 10 would be there is if they committed a murder or sex crime. Is there actually anybody under the age of 13 there? I don't think there is.