Protected cycle lanes to schools

loyatemu

Lumen wrote: »

I would prefer there to be lane widening without any changes to lane markings (i.e. no marked cycle lanes at all).

I don't agree with this - when there are no markings some drivers drive close to the centre line, others drive close to the kerb, & many just weave all over the road. When they all stop at a junction it then becomes very difficult to filter to the front of the queue on a bike. Even just a white line marking a cycle lane has the psychological effect of persuading most drivers to keep between the lines.

My kids cycle to school some of the time, & they mostly use the footpath. If they're out cycling with me, we use the road but I'm at the back barking instructions.

I understand the argument that creating separate spaces for cyclists encourages drivers to think they shouldn't be on the road, but the counterpoint is that lanes encourage more people to cycle. The Dutch and the Danish seem to have nailed this and they have lanes everywhere.

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

Posh kids don't cycle. This is nothing new.

A boardsie once told me he was the only gay in the village cyclist in his fee-paying south Dublin secondary school back in the 1990s.

ted1 wrote: »

Nonsense , most the kids in my school cycled (Terenure) and I know that Mary's and High school was the same.

No, posh. Not Terenure. :pac:

Lumen

loyatemu wrote: »

I don't agree with this - when there are no markings some drivers drive close to the centre line, others drive close to the kerb, & many just weave all over the road. When they all stop at a junction it then becomes very difficult to filter to the front of the queue on a bike. Even just a white line marking a cycle lane has the psychological effect of persuading most drivers to keep between the lines.

I understand your reasoning but disagree.

In my experience of cycling around Dublin the safest roads are those without lanes, because drivers go slower and drive in a more considered fashion and plan overtakes.

The absolutely worst place to cycle in Dublin is the N11 or along the canal. Southbound on the N11 if you deviate even six inches from the lane (e.g. to dodge one of the numerous drains) you're likely to get knocked off because drivers consider that they can speed past at or over the posted limit. They don't think they're overtaking, they think they're on a different road altogether.

Chips Lovell

loyatemu wrote: »

I understand the argument that creating separate spaces for cyclists encourages drivers to think they shouldn't be on the road, but the counterpoint is that lanes encourage more people to cycle. The Dutch and the Danish seem to have nailed this and they have lanes everywhere.

I do get the point that it may encourage novices, but is pandering to scaremongering the best approach?

Imagine we took the same approach to learner drivers? Instead of teaching them to drive competently and feel comfortable in traffic, we built them segregated infrastructure and decked them out in an array of safety equipment?

smacl

Lumen wrote: »

Posh kids don't cycle. This is nothing new.

Crap. I'm going to have to tell youngest she's not posh. She'll be devastated! Maybe just get her a red light for the left handlebar and a green one for the right.

smacl

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Imagine we took the same approach to learner drivers? Instead of teaching them to drive competently and feel comfortable in traffic, we built them segregated infrastructure and decked them out in an array of safety equipment?

Not a great comparison though, as learner drivers have to be older and take lessons on how to drive. Imagine if we plonked 12 year olds in cars on the main road with no lessons, it would be the rest of us looking for separated lanes

irishrover99

I see lots of kids cycling to a certain secondary school on my way to work,some of them on better bikes than mine.

Dermot Illogical

The biggest change needed is to stop letting people get away with sh1t driving, imho.
Taking other traffic off the roads to protect it from idiots who can't drive properly is simply facilitating their behaviour.

buffalo

Lumen wrote: »

Whilst cycling on roads is safe, the major issue is getting through the gridlock of cars full of other people's children.

From my limited experience of commuting at school hours, this is reason enough to put in a segregated lane protected with concrete bollards or anti-tank guns or something.

It's not so much speeding cars as the completely inconsiderate parking and sudden manoeuvres that are the greater risks close to schools.

Carawaystick

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

The biggest change needed is to stop letting people get away with sh1t driving, imho.
Taking other traffic off the roads to protect it from idiots who can't drive properly is simply facilitating their behaviour.

This.
you never hear of any driver being charged with any think after a fatal collision with a cyclist.
I'd say a majority of these are dangerous driving. Unless the vehicle is stopped, then almost all people driving are somewhat careless driving
If people driving thought they'd get punished for dangerous driving, there'd be a lot more consideration given for vulnerable road users.

Firedance

magicbastarder wrote: »

would be interesting to hear how many posters on here used to cycle to school (or still do!)
i walked to primary school, about one third of a km. cycled to secondary, except for sixth year, and that was just over 3km.

I cycled to secondary school for 5 years and then nothing much in my adult life. I've recently taken up cycling to work and this morning on the quays I saw a young kid cycling to school. He would presumably be in secondary school but had to be under 15 he looked so young! I stayed behind him for a few sets of lights as my heart was in my mouth watching him.

+ 1 to the point on the need to stop motorists getting away with dangerous driving.

cdaly_

I'd go for a ban on cars within 500m of any school. You then have an incentive to cycle and an inconvenience to drive...

Chuchote

Carawaystick wrote: »

This.
you never hear of any driver being charged with any think after a fatal collision with a cyclist.
I'd say a majority of these are dangerous driving. Unless the vehicle is stopped, then almost all people driving are somewhat careless driving
If people driving thought they'd get punished for dangerous driving, there'd be a lot more consideration given for vulnerable road users.

Wasn't one of the cyclists hospitalised for "crashing into a parked car" the other day actually doored?

magicbastarder

cdaly_ wrote: »

I'd go for a ban on cars within 500m of any school. You then have an incentive to cycle and an inconvenience to drive...

that'd be a fun one to implement. you'd probably close half the roads in any of the cities.

07Lapierre

magicbastarder wrote: »

would be interesting to hear how many posters on here used to cycle to school (or still do!)
i walked to primary school, about one third of a km. cycled to secondary, except for sixth year, and that was just over 3km.

I walked to Primary School,
I cycled the Secondary school,
I cycled to College,
I cycled to my first job! (cycled from Coolock to Sandyford Ind Estate).
I then got a job as a Sales rep (complete with company car) and didn't cycle again for another 15 years or so.

Now I commute by bike 2 -3 days a week.

In short...I'm an old fart!

Lusk_Doyle

07Lapierre wrote: »

I walked to Primary School,
I cycled the Secondary school,
I cycled to College,
I cycled to my first job! (cycled from Coolock to Sandyford Ind Estate).
I then got a job as a Sales rep (complete with company car) and didn't cycle again for another 15 years or so.

Now I commute by bike 2 -3 days a week.

In short...I'm an old fart!

Ah now, you're a grand lad.

smacl

magicbastarder wrote: »

that'd be a fun one to implement. you'd probably close half the roads in any of the cities.

Not close them, just close them to cars. Works for me

V-man

Chuchote wrote: »

Cycling to school in the Netherlands

www dot youtube dot /watch?v=2n_znwWroGM

www dot youtube dot /watch?v=9K_omtMbW48

Oh no, these children are cycling on the pavement against the flow, do not pay motor tax, do not have insurance, cause scratches on cars and have no driver license.

Those Dutch are savage people, it starts with the parents. Can't they afford a car?

Darkglasses

Absolutely impractical in Wexford. First of all, there isn't really a single good cycle lane in Wexford Town, after about 10 efforts. I don't want to see them try anymore, they're generally more dangerous to use than if you just ignore them.

As for cycling numbers, I worked in a large secondary school for about 2 years recently enough, and in that time there was one boy (out of over 600) who would cycle a couple of times a year. One day, about 7 out of the 600+ cycled in due to a special initiative in the build-up to CAS. One or two teachers cycled in habitually. Other than that, there was only ever me.

Chuchote

Darkglasses wrote: »

Absolutely impractical in Wexford. First of all, there isn't really a single good cycle lane in Wexford Town, after about 10 efforts. I don't want to see them try anymore, they're generally more dangerous to use than if you just ignore them.

As for cycling numbers, I worked in a large secondary school for about 2 years recently enough, and in that time there was one boy (out of over 600) who would cycle a couple of times a year. One day, about 7 out of the 600+ cycled in due to a special initiative in the build-up to CAS. One or two teachers cycled in habitually. Other than that, there was only ever me.

Astonishing! So if Father Murphy of old Kilcormac spurred up the rock with a warning cry today, the answer would be "Puff, puff, puff, I'm too out of condition, Father, I'll follow ye in the cahr"?

Lusk_Doyle

For those of you wondering what the above is in reference to...

https://youtu.be/8hHq-jlj6zQ

teatreeshamble

If there was more aggressive ticketing for all pedestrians and vehicles breaking road laws, we'd be better off and wouldn't have as great a need for protected lanes (which cost more than 0 to build and maintain)

Chuchote

teatreeshamble wrote: »

If there was more aggressive ticketing for all pedestrians and vehicles breaking road laws, we'd be better off and wouldn't have as great a need for protected lanes (which cost more than 0 to build and maintain)

True, true, if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride in cycle lanes.

V-man

teatreeshamble wrote: »

If there was more aggressive ticketing for all pedestrians and vehicles breaking road laws, we'd be better off and wouldn't have as great a need for protected lanes (which cost more than 0 to build and maintain)

No, accidents would still happen.
Driver that did not had his coffee, broken indicator, cyclist driving around a put hole/glass, cyclist leaving mandatory cycle lane.
Fines maybe hurt but it is the speed difference that actually kills.

Relationship of Vehicle Speed to Odds of Pedestrian Death in Collision
Vehicle Speed Odds of Pedestrian Death
20 mph 5%
30 mph 45%
40 mph 85%

Segregation actually works if it is done right.

Chuchote

This nasty accident - "Cyclist trapped screaming under bus" - could have been avoided with a separated cycle lane:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/woman-trapped-under-bus-following-accident-in-city-centre-35009380.html

magicbastarder

i'm not quite sure what a protected cycle lane is - is this an off road lane, i.e. with an elevated kerb? or fenced off?
my main concern is that i assume it would not be swept clean.

Macy0161

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not quite sure what a protected cycle lane is - is this an off road lane, i.e. with an elevated kerb? or fenced off?
my main concern is that i assume it would not be swept clean.

I assumed fenced/ bollarded off. Anything else would become a school drop off zone for cars.

Macy0161

Deedsie wrote: »

Roads stupidly busy this morning... So many kids being dropped to school. Is there no way schools, councils etc could discourage parents from doing this. Teresian school on the N11 is ridiculous with the amount of parents pulling in and out. What's wrong with dropping kids to a bus stop closer to your home? Or God forbid walking them to the bus stop and waiting until they get on.

I think on the N11, it's the Teresian School traffic doing U turns at RTE and Donnybrook Church that really causes the mayhem.

However, it is easy to just blame the schools. There's also a lot less single occupancy cars during summer/ school holidays because of the parents who aren't necessarily involved dropping children to school, but are taking time off to mind children.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not quite sure what a protected cycle lane is - is this an off road lane, i.e. with an elevated kerb? or fenced off?
my main concern is that i assume it would not be swept clean.

Here are some examples:

http://www.peopleforbikes.org/blog/entry/tech-talk-19-beautiful-ways-to-protect-bike-lanes-photos

My favourites are this one simply walled off by wheels



and this one with landscaping protecting it



Dublin City's plan to move parking out to form a barrier protecting a cycle lane is good too - but a) it may lead to double parking instead, and b) I'm against the whole concept of onstreet parking in any case.

smacl

One my daughter is using below which is quite good. It demands a fair land take though, so while it works well in new developments it is difficult to retrofit to constrained spaces.