Roundabouts, because these threads are always great!

Kings Inns or bust

Picture a roundabout exits at 12,3,6 and 9 o'clock both with two lanes.

I enter at 6 o'clock to exit at 12 o'clock in the RIGHT lane.

Jake enters the roundabout at 9 o'clock to exit at 3 o'clock in the LEFT lane.

a) who has right of way at 12 o'clock if we both arrive there at the same time?

(I assume Jake as I have to cross his lane)

b) Is it okay for Jake to join the roundabout as I'm passing as he is using the inside lane, and I the outside lane.

(Assuming myself and Jake are the only two people in D5 that have any lane discipline.)

c) Should I be changing lanes on the roundabout?

(I actually don't but I do check my mirrors prior to exiting.)

biko

Since you were in left lane at 6 o'clock you are blocking Jake from entering the RB from 9 o'clock.

bazz26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgX6qlJEMc

dodderangler

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

Picture a roundabout exits at 12,3,6 and 9 o'clock both with two lanes.

I enter at 6 o'clock to exit at 12 o'clock in the outside lane.

Jake enters the roundabout at 9 o'clock to exit at 3 o'clock in the inside lane.

a) who has right of way at 12 o'clock if we both arrive there at the same time?

(I assume Jake as I have to cross his lane)

b) Is it okay for Jake to join the roundabout as I'm passing as he is using the inside lane, and I the outside lane.

(Assuming myself and Jake are the only two people in D5 that have any lane discipline.)

c) Should I be changing lanes on the roundabout?

(I actually don't but I do check my mirrors prior to exiting.)

9 o'clock, 6 o'clock, and 12 o'clock?? How long were you at this round about for??

Special Circumstances

LOL, I predict a riot OP!

biko wrote: »

Since you were in left lane at 6 o'clock you are blocking Jake from entering the RB from 9 o'clock.

Surely that would negate the point of having two or more lanes around the roundabout? (It would solve a lot of problems confusion/anger if all roundabouts were single lane, assuming the roundabout had enough "run-out" to prevent exiting traffic backing back up onto it due to congestion)

Disgruntled Badger

He has ROW

savagethegoat

Impossible to tell due to the peculiar Irish habit of sometimes referring to roundabout lanes as inside and outside , the opposite to what the lanes would be called on the approach road.

When you say inside /outside , do you mean left /right or right/left.?

Is it a trick question?
The dogs in the street know who ever gets there first has the right of way!

Kings Inns or bust

biko wrote: »

Since you were in left lane at 6 o'clock you are blocking Jake from entering the RB from 9 o'clock.

I was in the right (outside lane) Should I have moved as per (c)?

dodderangler wrote: »

9 o'clock, 6 o'clock, and 12 o'clock?? How long were you at this round about for??

I knew someone was gonna make that pun, I salute you for your timing sir.

Kings Inns or bust

Sorry posted edited to avoid confusion.

dodderangler

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

I was in the right (outside lane) Should I have moved as per (c)?



I knew someone was gonna make that pun, I salute you for your timing sir.

Had to be done mate. Surprised I even got it that quick.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Jake shouldn't have entered the roundabout, or if he did, should have allowed/given way to you the oppurtunity to go straight through to 12 o'clock.

vandriver

In Tenerife,they have a foolproof method of dealing with 2 lane roundabouts.Everyone uses the outside lane,no matter how far round they are going .
The downside is of course horrendous tailbacks,but I bet el boards.es has no threads like this.

hi5

Who ever is on the roundabout has right of way, it doesn't matter what lane your in.
Jake did not give way to you as you were already on the roundabout, so Jake is at fault.

savagethegoat

assuming you indicated at the appropriate point you would have had right of way if he were about to pull out. He shouldn't have pulled out alongside you but , seeing your indicator, held back and passed behind you (in other words given way to traffic from his right). Of course if you were coming up slightly behind him when he pulled out, he would have had right of way

frozenfrozen

Give way to your right, give way to those already on the roundabout. You have right of way in that case of entering the roundabout at the exact same time at identical speeds (how often is that going to happen)

In practical driving, if you see that you're both going to be crossing paths, slow down or speed up to make that not happen. Change to the left lane if this will help you have a clearer path sooner... indicate as early as appropriate to give them information to help you get through the situation more smoothly...

If you see from afar that you will both arrive at the roundabout at the same time, it's easier to just slow down and let them arrive first and go, you can proceed through the roundabout much faster if you don't have to worry about others potentially pulling across your path. You'll end up making much more progress by 'giving away' your right of way in that manner, rather than having to proceed cautiously waiting to swerve or brake.

Right lane through a roundabout from 6 to 12 o clock is opening yourself up to be side swiped by someone from the left lane carrying on around the roundabout. If the left lane is blocked with people taking the first exit, move over to the left after you have passed the first exit and close off that gap for someone to pull into.

in 'right of way' give way to the right. give way to those already on the roundabout. it's as straightforward as that IMO

biko

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Surely that would negate the point of having two or more lanes around the roundabout?

The point of having two entry lanes is that the left lane is for traffic to the left and straight, the right lane is for traffic going right.

Left lane - exits from 7 o'clock up and including 12 o'clock
Right lane - exits from 1 o'clock and more

https://www.roaddriver.co.uk/webroot/uploads/ga96_how-to-navigate-roundabouts.jpg

frozenfrozen

Right lane is good for straight when the left lane is full of people taking the first exit.. really the only time it should be used for going straight in my opinion unless signposted etc..

biko

Sure, may as well use the oncoming lane too if there is no traffic right now...

Be grand

Decent Skin

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

Picture a roundabout exits at 12,3,6 and 9 o'clock both with two lanes.

I enter at 6 o'clock to exit at 12 o'clock in the RIGHT lane.

Jake enters the roundabout at 9 o'clock to exit at 3 o'clock in the LEFT lane.

a) who has right of way at 12 o'clock if we both arrive there at the same time?

(I assume Jake as I have to cross his lane)

b) Is it okay for Jake to join the roundabout as I'm passing as he is using the inside lane, and I the outside lane.

(Assuming myself and Jake are the only two people in D5 that have any lane discipline.)

c) Should I be changing lanes on the roundabout?

(I actually don't but I do check my mirrors prior to exiting.)

If you indicated at the 9 o'clock exit as you're supposed to then Jake would have known that he shouldn't enter.

How did you arrive at 12 o'clock / second exit "together" if you were in the correct lane when entering the roundabout ? You would have had no lane change in that scenario : enter on left, go around on left, exit from left lane.

Edit: if both lanes entering allowed for straight on then you should have been exiting in the right-hand exit lane, and Jake should have exitted in the left.

frozenfrozen

biko wrote: »

Sure, may as well use the oncoming lane too if there is no traffic right now...

Be grand

you could use the oncoming lane if there was no solid white line

Making a left turn
Approach in the left-hand lane, indicate ‘left’ as you approach, and continue
until you have taken the left exit.

Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock)
Approach in the left-hand lane (unless road markings say otherwise) but do not
indicate ‘left’ until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take.
Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise, for example a long line of traffic in
the left lane signalling left or roadworks in the left lane, you may follow the
course shown by the red line.


page 132

Mc Love

You'd hardly be using the right lane if there is no traffic OP, making your argument null and void. Unless you are one of the people that drive in the overtaking lane on the motorway when there is nobody in the driving lane, if so, carry on and best of luck.

savagethegoat

some of you do realise the guy was entering at a different point and exiting for that matter,

frozenfrozen

Using the right lane when there is no traffic is actually sending unhelpful information to other drivers, if they're entering at 9 o clock and looking to exit at 3 o clock, it makes total sense for them to go in tandem with you in the RHL, making the assumption you are going at least past 12 o clock, so you would never have to cross paths.

If you entered in the right hand lane to go straight because of a blocked left hand lane, then turn on your left indicator and move over after you've passed the first exit, then exit the roundabout. You can't just straight line a roundabout in the right lane. Well you can, if you want to open yourself up to being side swiped.


Cyclists staying in the left lane while going around the roundabout past 12 o clock, come to mind as a reason to not straight line roundabouts.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Why would a cyclist be in the left lane going past 12 oclock?? They should be in the right lane when going past 12 oclock, like all other vehicles.

frozenfrozen

Explain that to one while you're scraping them out of your wheel arch, to be a bit crass about it.

Cyclists are slower than cars and so can have been on a roundabout for a long time but still be passing an exit at the same time as a car. I've seen plenty of people on bikes having to stop to leave cars exit roundabouts even though the car entered far later than the bicycle.

You also never know if the bicycle entered someone where they would be crossing 12 o clock either, they could have gone all the way around the roundabout or have just entered, in the right lane going straight through a roundabout you would be crossing their path, whereas staying in the left lane would leave you slowly following behind. They could be going around past 12 o clock from the cars perspective, but they could have entered at 9 o clock, and be in the right to be passing that exit at 12 o clock, while in the left lane.

Plenty of unconfident cyclists stay in the outside lane on the roundabout always. Right of way is there to keep traffic flowing smoothly not to prove you're innocent when you've hit somebody (not putting words into anyone's mouth, but it doesn't matter how wrong someones road position is on a roundabout if you hit them and it was preventable by not straight lining through the roundabout to save 1 second)

Special Circumstances

Arya Modern Cartoon wrote: »

Why would a cyclist be in the left lane going past 12 oclock?? They should be in the right lane when going past 12 oclock, like all other vehicles.

Not necessarily,no.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

So what you are saying is, we should all not follow the rules of the road because cyclist do not follow the rules of the road? *just in case*
That's logical? :rolleyes:

You should anticipate a car, cyclist or any other vechicles cutting across you at all times. Like a ninja.

EDIT: I should add - I am cycling to work nearly 20 years, through some of the busiest roundabouts in Dublin and I see all sorts.

Decent Skin

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Right lane is good for straight when the left lane is full of people taking the first exit.. really the only time it should be used for going straight in my opinion unless signposted etc..

When approaching a line of traffic, how do you know that they are all taking the first exit ? Can you see all their indicators ?

Left lane is for the first 2 exits BTW; not necessarily "going straight". The "12 o'clock" thing only applies to bog-standard 4-exit roundabouts.

Special Circumstances

biko wrote: »

The point of having two entry lanes is that the left lane is for traffic to the left and straight, the right lane is for traffic going right.

Left lane - exits from 7 o'clock up and including 12 o'clock
Right lane - exits from 1 o'clock and more

https://www.roaddriver.co.uk/webroot/uploads/ga96_how-to-navigate-roundabouts.jpg

Yes, but if a car in any lane on the roundabout has undisputed ROW over the whole set of lanes as far as their intended destination.... then any cars waiting to join will be joining the roundabout once the car on the roundabout has passed.... exactly as if there was only one lane.

Just put a proper junction there and leave roundabouts (as single lanes) for low volume areas.

frozenfrozen

Arya Modern Cartoon wrote: »

So what you are saying is, we should all not follow the rules of the road because cyclist do not follow the rules of the road? *just in case*
That's logical? :rolleyes:

You should anticipate a car, cyclist or any other vechicles cutting across you at all times. Like a ninja.

EDIT: I should add - I am cycling to work nearly 20 years, through some of the busiest roundabouts in Dublin and I see all sorts.

Don't use the right lane in a roundabout to go straight, unless the above cases are true. What I'm saying is to follow the rules of the road and to drive defensively, just in case somebody from the left lane carries on around the roundabout, because they assume you're in the right lane so are continuing around.

re: anticipate a car cyclist or whatever cutting across you at all times.. don't drive beside people and don't stay in their blind spots and don't let yourself get into a position where them breaking the rules of the road would lead to a crash. No ninja skills needed, just SYSTEM.
Ride like you're invisible, not a ninja

Decent Skin wrote: »

When approaching a line of traffic, how do you know that they are all taking the first exit ? Can you see all their indicators ?

Left lane is for the first 2 exits BTW; not necessarily "going straight". The "12 o'clock" thing only applies to bog-standard 4-exit roundabouts.

If the left lane is filled with people indicating left or the left lane is closed for roadworks you can use the right lane to go straight, unless signposted differently of course.

Left lane is for the first two exits if they are before 12 o clock, definitely not the first two always. That's why it's important to actually understand the cases when using the right lane to go straight is allowed.

If you can see the first few people are indicating left, or enough people that you would be through the roundabout before anyone not turning left, then yes of course it makes more sense to use the right lane to go straight.

Left lane is for the first 2 exits BTW; not necessarily "going straight". The "12 o'clock" thing only applies to bog-standard 4-exit roundabouts.

explain further, because that doesn't sound right to me, maybe the other way around. There's a certain roundabout near me that looks like this =Q= (with the q being 2 lanes, sorry for the bad ascii diagram)

You would be asking for a crash if you entered at the tail of the Q and continued around to the second exit, from the left lane.

Steve

People who design roundabouts in Ireland mostly deserve to be shot, cut up and any trace of their blood line removed from evolution.

Apart from the many examples of two lanes in, one lane out - deliberate planting of foliage to obscure views on oncoming vehicles... putting traffic lights on a roundabout - a junction designed to REPLACE TRAFFIC LIGHTS - has to be the most insane of insane of civil engineering decisions..

Decent Skin

frozenfrozen wrote: »

If the left lane is filled with people indicating left or the left lane is closed for roadworks you can use the right lane to go straight, unless signposted differently of course.

My point is that you can't see those indicators.

Left lane is for the first two exits if they are before 12 o clock, definitely not the first two always. That's why it's important to actually understand the cases when using the right lane to go straight is allowed.

Untrue.

If you can see the first few people are indicating left, or enough people that you would be through the roundabout before anyone not turning left, then yes of course it makes more sense to use the right lane to go straight.

The car (or two or three) at the front of all those may be going straight on. You won't know this until you've already decided to use the right lane.

You would be asking for a crash if you entered at the tail of the Q and continued around to the second exit, from the left lane.

Left lane = first and second exit unless otherwise signposted / marked

Decent Skin

Steve wrote: »

People who design roundabouts in Ireland mostly deserve to be shot, cut up and any trace of their blood line removed from evolution.

Apart from the many examples of two lanes in, one lane out - deliberate planting of foliage to obscure views on oncoming vehicles... putting traffic lights on a roundabout - a junction designed to REPLACE TRAFFIC LIGHTS - has to be the most insane of insane of civil engineering decisions..

Not to mention some relying solely on road markings which are covered by any other cars in the queue!

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

A problem with the rules of the road is that they are open to interpretation. A perfect example has been mentioned a few times and relates to using the right lane to go straight/12 o'clock. "Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise..." while given two examples, is still open to interpretation and the very reason why there are so many opinions on how to use a roundabout "correctly".

Long line of traffic... is that 3 cars, 5 cars,10 cars? etc. etc.

If you take it that the person in the right lane is *always* going to go straight/12 o'clock (for whatever reason), then never be in the left lane to go past 12 o'clock/subsequent exits. Simple rule and should minimise any cause for an accident.

Decent Skin

Arya Modern Cartoon wrote: »

A problem with the rules of the road is that they are open to interpretation. A perfect example has been mentioned a few times and relates to using the right lane to go straight/12 o'clock. "Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise..." while given two examples, is still open to interpretation and the very reason why there are so many opinions on how to use a roundabout "correctly".

Long line of traffic... is that 3 cars, 5 cars,10 cars? etc. etc.

If you take it that the person in the right lane is *always* going to go straight/12 o'clock (for whatever reason), then never be in the left lane to go past 12 o'clock/subsequent exits. Simple rule and should minimise any cause for an accident.

Not only that, but using the "12 o'clock" phrasing is also open to interpretation unless you have a satellite map of the roundabout!

There's one in Limerick where the "straight on" is the third exit, but it's at approx the 1 o'clock position; despite this some still argue that it's "at 12 o'clock".

We queried it with the RSA and they couldn't / wouldn't give a straight answer.

The 12 o'clock thing is grand for a bog-standard 4-pointer, as the rules coincide.

But the only rule not open to interpretation is the exit number.

And beyond that the bloody things should be planned and signed properly - there's even many that have pedestrian lights so close as to make the "not stopping on a roundabout" rule impossible (one car space so if you're second you're screwed if the pedestrian lights change on exit) and a whole host of other ridiculously unplanned crap - they were basically used as a lazy cop-out to avoid planning a junction, and I'm surprised there aren't a myriad more accidents at them.

Steve

I'm sorry but that's all bollicks.

My apologies.

To clarify, I've been around boards a long time and had this same argument many times over - in this very forum.

It's always interesting every time it comes up and someone puts a new spin on it, however the sole legal obligation: 'when entering a roundabout, you must turn left' has not changed since I started driving 30 years ago and is not likely to anytime soon.

Anything beyond that, including the 'rules of the road' is fantasy.

Decent Skin

Steve wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's all bollicks.

What is ?

It's always interesting every time it comes up and someone puts a new spin on it, however the sole legal obligation: 'when entering a roundabout, you must turn left' has not changed since I started driving 30 years ago and is not likely to anytime soon.

Anything beyond that, including the 'rules of the road' is fantasy.

What about "you must give way to traffic on the roundabout" ?

Steve

Decent Skin wrote: »

What is ?

What about "you must give way to traffic on the roundabout" ?

If you can quote anything in the road traffic act that contradicts what I said then I'll gladly and humbly apologise.

Decent Skin

Steve wrote: »

If you can quote anything in the road traffic act that contradicts what I said then I'll gladly and humbly apologise.

Wasn't looking for an apology - was just curious as to which post(s) you reckoned were "bollix"

And are you saying that the RTA doesn't say "give way to traffic on the roundabout" ?

Marcusm

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

Picture a roundabout exits at 12,3,6 and 9 o'clock both with two lanes.

I enter at 6 o'clock to exit at 12 o'clock in the RIGHT lane.

Jake enters the roundabout at 9 o'clock to exit at 3 o'clock in the LEFT lane.

a) who has right of way at 12 o'clock if we both arrive there at the same time?

(I assume Jake as I have to cross his lane)

b) Is it okay for Jake to join the roundabout as I'm passing as he is using the inside lane, and I the outside lane.

(Assuming myself and Jake are the only two people in D5 that have any lane discipline.)

c) Should I be changing lanes on the roundabout?

(I actually don't but I do check my mirrors prior to exiting.)

The problem arises because each of you enters the roundabout intending to head straight through and each of you has lawfully chosen a different strategy for your entry lane. In such circumstances, I adopt a practical approach such that I exit in the leg lane meaning that if, like you, I have entered in the inside lane I signal to move across once i am passing the exit before mine. If it's easier to give way, I do as I don't want scratches or a crash.

On my first day on the open road, my instructor (a lovely guy from Meath who has since taught Adele and most of One Direction) took me on a 5 lane roundabout near Wanstead/Woodford. We had to go all the way around about 7 exits and that was the only day I did it perfectly as I gave way to everyone on the lanes outside me. With roundabouts, once you are on them, I think that's the only way to make it work. Give way to the right is the rule for entering but once you're on it, practically you have to give way to the left!

Steve

Decent Skin wrote: »

Wasn't looking for an apology - was just curious as to which post(s) you reckoned were "bollix"

And are you saying that the RTA doesn't say "give way to traffic on the roundabout" ?

I'll apologise anyway, there was no need for me to be so hostile. Really no call or excuse for it. Sorry

Yes, I'm saying in all my research, there is nothing in Irish law other than 'you must turn left' in relation to roundabouts.

Marcusm

Decent Skin wrote: »

What about "you must give way to traffic on the roundabout" ?

if there are segregated/marked lanes on the roundabout you can enter so long as you don't encroach into the occupied lane. That way you are giving them their way.

Decent Skin

Marcusm wrote: »

if there are segregated/marked lanes on the roundabout you can enter so long as you don't encroach into the occupied lane. That way you are giving them their way.

Agreed. If someone is indicating right and going all the way around you could easily go into the left lane to turn left.

It'd be the equivalent of merging into a left lane of a motorway while someone was in the right lane.

But that's why it's "Yield" / "Give Way" and not "Stop".

Decent Skin

Steve wrote: »

I'll apologise anyway, there was no need for me to be so hostile. Really no call or excuse for it. Sorry

Yes, I'm saying in all my research, there is nothing in Irish law other than 'you must turn left' in relation to roundabouts.

No worries.

You could well be right too - the Yield sign at a roundabout could have its own - technically separate - rule.

Mc Love

I normally use the 1st exit 2nd exit left lane and subsequent exits use the right lane.

Marcusm

Decent Skin wrote: »

Agreed. If someone is indicating right and going all the way around you could easily go into the left lane to turn left.

It'd be the equivalent of merging into a left lane of a motorway while someone was in the right lane.

But that's why it's "Yield" / "Give Way" and not "Stop".

Stopping on a roundabout would defeat its purpose and is for morons or those who have been hit!

Marcusm

Steve wrote: »

People who design roundabouts in Ireland mostly deserve to be shot, cut up and any trace of their blood line removed from evolution.

Apart from the many examples of two lanes in, one lane out - deliberate planting of foliage to obscure views on oncoming vehicles... putting traffic lights on a roundabout - a junction designed to REPLACE TRAFFIC LIGHTS - has to be the most insane of insane of civil engineering decisions..

Permanent lights on a roundabout are silly but occasionally they are needed for rush hour. I used to drive on many good examples - 90% of inbound traffic heading in one one arm means that it's impossible for entry from some arms. Traffic lights, properly phased, can really help traffic flow in those limited circumstances but they should be shut off outside those hours. In Ireland, it almost seems as if traffic lights are permanently on (eg Stillordgan bypass) where they should be flashing ambers for much of the day/night.

Special Circumstances

Decent Skin wrote: »

Not only that, but using the "12 o'clock" phrasing is also open to interpretation unless you have a satellite map of the roundabout!

There's one in Limerick where the "straight on" is the third exit, but it's at approx the 1 o'clock position; despite this some still argue that it's "at 12 o'clock".

We queried it with the RSA and they couldn't / wouldn't give a straight answer.

Conlons? It's 12. Calling it "straight on" is the clue.

Decent Skin

Marcusm wrote: »

Stopping on a roundabout would defeat its purpose and is for morons or those who have been hit!

I was referring to the signs at entry.

Not sure how you can claim it's for morons though - there are many roundabouts with pedestrian crossings far too near to them and their absolute and utter lack of design makes it impossible not to stop on them at some point.

Marcusm

Decent Skin wrote: »

I was referring to the signs at entry.

Not sure how you can claim it's for morons though - thee are many roundabouts with pedestrian crossings far too near to them and their absolute and utter lack of design makes it impossible not to stop on them at some point.

I did say "on" the roundabout meaning after entry. I find lots of people do this when confused with their exit or when there are multiple lanes. Stopping before the roundabout is often necessary in places where a roundabout is necessary.