Cyclist/ Bus incident at Portland Row

Tombo2001

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/woman-trapped-under-bus-following-accident-in-city-centre-35009380.html

I hope the cyclist is ok; she appears not to have serious injuries, but no doubt is shook up and traumatised.

Its the comment section that gets me.

No info is given apart from
(I) the bus is turning left
(ii) the bike had a flashing light

and yet the default response in nearly every comment is that the cyclist is to blame.

Really, why would you ever get on a bike if that's the attitude people have.

Collie D

I counted two negative responses from 12 comments

Chuchote

Collie D wrote: »

I counted two negative responses from 12 comments

A selection of the comments:

I'm not blaming anyone and I have sympathy for both the bus driver and the cyclist but I think that 11 pm and indeed any time after dark is too late for cycling in the city centre. I'm glad she's ok.

Wonder had she lights on the bike

I really hope the girl is ok. But this accident once again shows how vulnerable cyclists are. There is a real need for everyone to kop on. We could have been reading about a cyclist killed under a bus. Is a death going to be needed before we stop this war between cyclists and everyone else on the road. Cyckists have to begin following the rules of the road. And a simple and really safe first step would be to stop undertaking.

Every poster is unfairly jumping down your throat but you make a very valid point - undertaking a car/bus/lorry or whatever is nuts (especially approaching a left turn junction) and gives no-one any chance...and I'm a cyclist/pedesrtian/car driver - Jesus what's the big rush???!

Glad she's ok but cyclists need to be more warey [sic]. Speaking as a cyclist I see a lot of dangerous behavior. Right of way is one thing but when you are exposed as you are on a bike the smallest collision can be devastating.

"But there is a thing called "driving with due care and attention" you know"

It stands to reasson that there is therefore such a thing as cycling with due care and attention, or walking with due are and attention. If cyclists are keeping left like they are meant to do then they are easy(ier) to see beacuse they are in the section of road that you expect to see them in. But when they weave across in front of you in city traffic from the right unexpectedly then all the due care and attention in the world wont help. Likewise if youre turning left you dont expect them to try and pass you on the left in the same way you wouldnt expect a motorist to overtake you when you are turning right. I suppose you could use the old RSA soundbite "expect the unexpected" to respond to that one....

I'd agree with many of those who comment that it's insane to cycle up on the inside of a bus, truck, van or car that's indicating and clearly about to turn left. But the assumptions seem to blame the cyclist automatically.

Carawaystick

Chuchote wrote: »

I'd agree with many of those who comment that it's insane to cycle up on the inside of a bus, truck, van or car that's indicating and clearly about to turn left. But the assumptions seem to blame the cyclist automatically.

Of course it's also insane for a driver of a bus,truck,van or car to turn left while a cyclist is undertaking. Its definitely careless driving, and potentially dangerous driving, both of which are criminal offences.

Chuchote

Nice piece with advice for drivers:

http://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/victoria-hazael/drivers-need-know

mr spuckler

Carawaystick wrote: »

Of course it's also insane for a driver of a bus,truck,van or car to turn left while a cyclist is undertaking. Its definitely careless driving, and potentially dangerous driving, both of which are criminal offences.

serious question, as someone strongly pro cyclist!

IF a vehicle is indicating left coming up to a junction, what legal onus is there on a cyclist? i understand that the driver has to execute due care regardless but would expect that a cyclist (starting behind the vehicle), who moved up the left side of the indicating vehicle, would not be deemed to be blameless yet do not know what offence would apply, if any?

Misguided1

[QUOTE=

IF a vehicle is indicating left coming up to a junction, what legal onus is there on a cyclist? i understand that the driver has to execute due care regardless but would expect that a cyclist (starting behind the vehicle), who moved up the left side of the indicating vehicle, would not be deemed to be blameless yet do not know what offence would apply, if any?[/QUOTE]

I had this thought myself this morning while watching a car indicate left and then about 10 bikes undertake the car even though the car had reached the junction first. What complicates the issue is that at this particular junction, there is a green arrow allowing road users to go straight (bikes therefore have a green light) but the car cannot turn left until it gets the filter light to go left. My view is that the bikes should be outside the car turning left rather than undertaking it.

techdiver

Misguided1 wrote: »

I had this thought myself this morning while watching a car indicate left and then about 10 bikes undertake the car even though the car had reached the junction first. What complicates the issue is that at this particular junction, there is a green arrow allowing road users to go straight (bikes therefore have a green light) but the car cannot turn left until it gets the filter light to go left. My view is that the bikes should be outside the car turning left rather than undertaking it.

I cycled to work for a good few years in Dublin (I now don't live in Dublin any more) and unfortunately much of the negative attitude towards cyclists in Dublin is somewhat warranted. I followed the rules of the road to the letter at all times, and often kept note of the number of cyclists who didn't that I met on my morning commute.

One morning in particular, I encountered 30 different cyclists on my route. Of that 30 only 5 did not skip the lights at some point, even at potentially dangerous junctions. Also, one gripe of mine was the number of cyclists who do exactly what you talk about above. My view is if you are sharing a lane with a car and they indicate to go left whilst ahead of you, you either yield of go on the outside of them. The number of self righteous cyclists who just zoom up the inside regardless and then gesticulate as if they have a right to do what they pease angered me.

All of the above is not to say that there aren't idiot motorists too, they are plenty of them. I have been squeezed off the road a number of times by busses/taxis passing and then cutting into a stop in front of me, or a driver passing ,me and then turning left cutting me off.

neris

Carawaystick wrote: »

Of course it's also insane for a driver of a bus,truck,van or car to turn left while a cyclist is undertaking. Its definitely careless driving, and potentially dangerous driving, both of which are criminal offences.

its not always the easiest to see a cyclist up the inside of a truck or bus even with numerous mirrors. Its probably more difficult to see on a truck as your higher up. Theres debate in the UK at moment about introducing legislation for city trucks that the bottom panel of the passenger door is nearly all glass to give the driver a better view at the lower levels

ted1

neris wrote: »

its not always the easiest to see a cyclist up the inside of a truck or bus even with numerous mirrors. Its probably more difficult to see on a truck as your higher up. Theres debate in the UK at moment about introducing legislation for city trucks that the bottom panel of the passenger door is nearly all glass to give the driver a better view at the lower levels

Fish eye lenses with displays on the dash that also utilise body heat detectors. Not overly expensive but very effective.

buffalo

mr spuckler wrote: »

serious question, as someone strongly pro cyclist!

IF a vehicle is indicating left coming up to a junction, what legal onus is there on a cyclist? i understand that the driver has to execute due care regardless but would expect that a cyclist (starting behind the vehicle), who moved up the left side of the indicating vehicle, would not be deemed to be blameless yet do not know what offence would apply, if any?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88740818&postcount=39

buffalo wrote: »

0332/2012 again - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

(ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

(iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

Summary: cyclists can undertake except when it'd be a silly idea, like the vehicle is indicating and about to turn left, or is unloading people or objects.

techdiver

Carawaystick wrote: »

Of course it's also insane for a driver of a bus,truck,van or car to turn left while a cyclist is undertaking. Its definitely careless driving, and potentially dangerous driving, both of which are criminal offences.

neris wrote: »

its not always the easiest to see a cyclist up the inside of a truck or bus even with numerous mirrors. Its probably more difficult to see on a truck as your higher up. Theres debate in the UK at moment about introducing legislation for city trucks that the bottom panel of the passenger door is nearly all glass to give the driver a better view at the lower levels

ted1 wrote: »

Fish eye lenses with displays on the dash that also utilise body heat detectors. Not overly expensive but very effective.

Undertaking a lorry or bus is a dumb idea at any time.

Check the below out to see how big a blind spot they have!

mr spuckler

thanks buffalo - a quick scan of the SI doesn't specify what penalty applies, if any?

Leroy42

Don't have the details of this accident, but I know that junction well (use it everyday) and 1 possible course of events highlights the problem with junctions such as these.

That junction has a pedestrian light on the left turn and a filter light to let traffic start going straight whilst the vehicles turning left have red whilst they wait for the pedestrians.

The cycle lane goes up the left of these vehicles (rightly as they are stopped) but what happens when the filter light turns green. The cyclist is caught moving up a vehicle about to turn left and they are going straight on.

As I said, I have no idea if this is what happened in this case.

tomasrojo

techdiver wrote: »

Undertaking a lorry or bus is a dumb idea at any time.

Check the below out to see how big a blind spot they have!

Vampire cyclists have to be especially careful.

Moflojo

Do not pass high-sided vehicles on the inside.


Protect yourself at all times.

Sorry for shouting. I've no idea what happened in the incident in question nor do I want to speculate on it, but as cyclists we should always obey these golden rules.

It's not about being right or being legal, it's about self-preservation. The majority of fatal and serious collisions between cyclists and vehicles involve high-sided vehicles such as rigid and articulated lorries and, to a lesser extent, buses and vans.

If you're not sure whether it's safe to pass on the inside, just stop and wait.

If you're an experienced cyclist and you see a fellow cyclist about to pass a high-sided vehicle on the inside, give them a shout - at the very least it might attract the driver's attention to the situation.

mrcheez

Collie D wrote: »

I counted two negative responses from 12 comments

add another one

Poor woman cycling in some towns let alone cities needs to be banned

lolz

flatface

Poor woman cycling in some towns let alone cities needs to be banned

Ah here, the ban should be extended to wealthy women too

ted1

techdiver wrote: »

Undertaking a lorry or bus is a dumb idea at any time.

Check the below out to see how big a blind spot they have!

Sometimes lorries overtake and then cut across. Not bothering adding life saving devices because undertaking is dumb is even dumber.
My suggestion removes the blind spot

Chuchote

Misguided1 wrote: »

I had this thought myself this morning while watching a car indicate left and then about 10 bikes undertake the car even though the car had reached the junction first. What complicates the issue is that at this particular junction, there is a green arrow allowing road users to go straight (bikes therefore have a green light) but the car cannot turn left until it gets the filter light to go left. My view is that the bikes should be outside the car turning left rather than undertaking it.

It's generally safer to cycle along the inside in this case rather than risk being sandwiched between the stationary-or-about-to-turn car and an oncoming lorry or other vehicle.

ted1 wrote: »

Fish eye lenses with displays on the dash that also utilise body heat detectors. Not overly expensive but very effective.

Is that a thing?

There seems to be an assumption in these posts that the cyclist was overtaking on the inside. May I point out that drivers coming in from a country run have often been travelling fast on motorways, and as they near home they can forget to slow down as much as they would if they were doing a trip completely through the city. I have found myself doing this - driving at 80 on a street coming into town, because I'd been driving at 120 on the motorways and my sense of correct speed was off kilter. (I'm not saying the driver was doing this, any more than any of those talking about cyclists undertaking are suggesting that the cyclist was doing that.)

The general rule that should be used when cycling is "Did your mother not teach you a titter of sense?"

The general rule that should be used when driving is "There are crazy people everywhere, watch out for them."

brocbrocach

Why is it so disproportionately often women?

Rogue-Trooper

mr spuckler wrote: »

thanks buffalo - a quick scan of the SI doesn't specify what penalty applies, if any?

Serious injury up to a maximum of death if found guilty............

Laneyh

I don't suppose we'll ever reach a point where cyclists and motorists alike will demand proper segregated cycle lanes. There will always be bad drivers and bad cyclists but at least if they're separate cyclists won't be at risk of serious injuries

brocbrocach

brocbrocach wrote: »

Why is it so disproportionately often women?

Well, it will probably upset the commenters on the Independent but here's the most popular theory, that covers precisely this issue (getting squeezed by something big turning left): http://www.rudi.net/node/16395

In this particular case we don't know what happened, but worth noting that the cyclist was under the front of the coach, not the side.

cdaly_

Leroy42 wrote: »

Don't have the details of this accident, but I know that junction well (use it everyday) and 1 possible course of events highlights the problem with junctions such as these.

That junction has a pedestrian light on the left turn and a filter light to let traffic start going straight whilst the vehicles turning left have red whilst they wait for the pedestrians.

The cycle lane goes up the left of these vehicles (rightly as they are stopped) but what happens when the filter light turns green. The cyclist is caught moving up a vehicle about to turn left and they are going straight on.

What happens in this case is that the cycle lane is incorrectly marked to the left of a left-turn lane. The cycle lane should be moved to the right of the left-turn lane.

So bad design puts cyclists at risk.

Dermot Illogical

Chuchote wrote: »

It's generally safer to cycle along the inside in this case rather than risk being sandwiched between the stationary-or-about-to-turn car and an oncoming lorry or other vehicle.

It's never safer to go left of a left-turning vehicle when you're proceeding straight ahead. Go to the right of it, or hold back.

brocbrocach

cdaly_ wrote: »

What happens in this case is that the cycle lane is incorrectly marked to the left of a left-turn lane. The cycle lane should be moved to the right of the left-turn lane.

So bad design puts cyclists at risk.

I'd say 90% of junctions in Dublin are designed like this. Don't know if I'd call it bad design though as otherwise you'd be forcing the cyclist to cross a lane of fast traffic before the light. Not ideal at all.
In fact the pedestrian light on the road to the left often stops the left-turning green from coming on at the same time as the onward green, which gives cyclists a 10 second window to filter up the left of the cars and cycle through the junction.

People saying cyclists should never filter up the left are in cloud cuckoo land.

Dermot Illogical

brocbrocach wrote: »

People saying cyclists should never filter up the left are in cloud cuckoo land.

I've read back, but can't see where anyone said that.

terrydel

Chuchote wrote: »

A selection of the comments:














I'd agree with many of those who comment that it's insane to cycle up on the inside of a bus, truck, van or car that's indicating and clearly about to turn left. But the assumptions seem to blame the cyclist automatically.

I'd say only the first of those is negative/unreasonable in any way.

brocbrocach

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

I've read back, but can't see where anyone said that.

Twas shouted for us all to learn from:
"Do not pass high-sided vehicles on the inside."

Chips Lovell

That's not the same thing.