Cyclist/ Bus incident at Portland Row

Leroy42

greenspurs wrote: »

and whats wrong with waiting in traffic? Id prefer to be 5mins late, than risk undertaking a truck that might pull across me!
A lot of us on here saying "motorists should wait and be patient , and then you suggest "to simply wait in traffic" is a bad thing?
Make up your mind, or find a better argument !

So you stop at the last vehicle in a traffic jam rather than cycle up the cycle lane? As you come to red lights you wait behind the last car in the queue?

Sorry, I don't believe you, it is complete non sense.

I assume that you cycle in the middle of the lane at all times just in case a car decides to pull into a parking space, or pull over quickly.

Motorists should wait and be patient rather than simply do whatever suit them? Yes. If there is another part of traffic, ie a bike) in the area then you wait. If if is safe to proceed then go ahead. Nobody is asking motorists to do anything that isn't in the rules of the road, a passing vehicles on the left when they are stopped or moving slowly is in the rules. Motorists therefore need to take that into consideration when making any manoeuvre.

You can't just simply move from one lane on a motorway to another without first checking it is clear, why do they think they can when in a city?

Chuchote

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you stop at the last vehicle in a traffic jam rather than cycle up the cycle lane? As you come to red lights you wait behind the last car in the queue?

In my case, nope, but if I see a truck or a bus at the very front (or a line of trucks or buses, though that doesn't happen often), I hang back. I have no desire to end my life as a statistic:

Chuchote 1808-2016
Missed by a loving family
Couldn't wait
Squashed by a truck
turning left
Alas

cython

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you stop at the last vehicle in a traffic jam rather than cycle up the cycle lane? As you come to red lights you wait behind the last car in the queue?

Sorry, I don't believe you, it is complete non sense.

I assume that you cycle in the middle of the lane at all times just in case a car decides to pull into a parking space, or pull over quickly.

Motorists should wait and be patient rather than simply do whatever suit them? Yes. If there is another part of traffic, ie a bike) in the area then you wait. If if is safe to proceed then go ahead. Nobody is asking motorists to do anything that isn't in the rules of the road, a passing vehicles on the left when they are stopped or moving slowly is in the rules. Motorists therefore need to take that into consideration when making any manoeuvre.

You can't just simply move from one lane on a motorway to another without first checking it is clear, why do they think they can when in a city?

The bolded is a rather hyperbolic interpretation of the poster's comment, IMHO. It is not a binary choice between always filtering and never filtering, rather it is a judgement call. While I am all for improving conditions for cyclists, and definitely find fault with a lot of driver behaviour around cyclists, there is a rather concerning attitude among some people (not saying you are one of them, mind) that I am coming to notice whereby some people seem to think that their safety as cyclists should be entirely someone else's responsibility.

You cite drivers on motorways, for example, and checking lanes around them; when I drive on multi lane roads and overtake HGVs, I am still cognisant of their large blind spots, and make a point of completing the overtake as quickly as possible, and not lingering in said blind spots. In in a similar vein, there are any number of manoeuvres undertaken by some cyclists on a daily basis that fly in the face of self-preservation, and consequently numerous measures that these cyclists could take to improve their own safety, rather than putting the onus on everyone else, and shirking all responsibility themselves.

Leroy42

greenspurs wrote: »

Do not undertake trucks/buses - simple as that.
Then there will be no incident...... simples.

Chuchote wrote: »

In my case, nope, but if I see a truck or a bus at the very front (or a line of trucks or buses, though that doesn't happen often), I hang back. I have no desire to end my life as a statistic:

So you were talking non sense in the 1st statement. you do pass on the left when you deem it safe to do so, much like most cyclists out there.

You glib condescending statement was nothing more than that.

magicbastarder

with the myriad ways to allow devices to talk to each other these days - and one thing i've not heard much of in relation to autonomous cars, which i'm surprised by - is the notion of a GPS device which broadcasts position and velocity over a short distance, say 50 foot. kinda like an IFF for vehicles.

so for instance, you could set your garmin device or smartphone to emit just enough info that you're a cyclist travelling at speed X, and that would be picked up by the GPS device or camera techology in other vehicles to enhance the info that can be fed to the driver. so it could calculate and warn a bus driver or lorry driver of a cyclist in their blind spot.

Leroy42

cython wrote: »

The bolded is a rather hyperbolic interpretation of the poster's comment, IMHO. It is not a binary choice between always filtering and never filtering, rather it is a judgement call. While I am all for improving conditions for cyclists, and definitely find fault with a lot of driver behaviour around cyclists, there is a rather concerning attitude among some people (not saying you are one of them, mind) that I am coming to notice whereby some people seem to think that their safety as cyclists should be entirely someone else's responsibility.

You cite drivers on motorways, for example, and checking lanes around them; when I drive on multi lane roads and overtake HGVs, I am still cognisant of their large blind spots, and make a point of completing the overtake as quickly as possible, and not lingering in said blind spots. In in a similar vein, there are any number of manoeuvres undertaken by some cyclists on a daily basis that fly in the face of self-preservation, and consequently numerous measures that these cyclists could take to improve their own safety, rather than putting the onus on everyone else, and shirking all responsibility themselves.

Of course ultimately it is each persons responsibility to act in a way so as to avoid accidents that may cause harm to themselves, others or property. Motorists, and particularly driver of larger vehicles carry additional responsibilities due to;
a) being the larger vehicle
b) being in a vehicle that carries a greater level of risk to those around them
c) they are the vehicle that are changing lanes, in most cases turning left. If both the truck and cyclists continued straight on nothing would happen but since the truck is changing direction than the onus is on the driver to ensure that they can do so safely.

Chuchote

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you were talking non sense in the 1st statement. you do pass on the left when you deem it safe to do so, much like most cyclists out there.

You glib condescending statement was nothing more than that.

Why all the hate? Yes, I pass on the left as is correct; I don't, however pass on the left when the vehicle is huge and likely to have a blind spot and the driver won't be able to see me, and will turn left, crushing me to death. I don't want to die; and I don't want to leave a driver with a lifetime's sorrow and regret. Nothing glib or condescending about it.

magicbastarder wrote: »

with the myriad ways to allow devices to talk to each other these days - and one thing i've not heard much of in relation to autonomous cars, which i'm surprised by - is the notion of a GPS device which broadcasts position and velocity over a short distance, say 50 foot. kinda like an IFF for vehicles.

so for instance, you could set your garmin device or smartphone to emit just enough info that you're a cyclist travelling at speed X, and that would be picked up by the GPS device or camera techology in other vehicles to enhance the info that can be fed to the driver. so it could calculate and warn a bus driver or lorry driver of a cyclist in their blind spot.

This is a brilliant, brilliant idea.

cython

Leroy42 wrote: »

Of course ultimately it is each persons responsibility to act in a way so as to avoid accidents that may cause harm to themselves, others or property. Motorists, and particularly driver of larger vehicles carry additional responsibilities due to;
a) being the larger vehicle
b) being in a vehicle that carries a greater level of risk to those around them
c) they are the vehicle that are changing lanes, in most cases turning left. If both the truck and cyclists continued straight on nothing would happen but since the truck is changing direction than the onus is on the driver to ensure that they can do so safely.

Are you aware that the law currently states that a cyclist should not pass a vehicle on the left when said vehicle "has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle"? That is, to my mind, common sense, and in fact puts an extra onus on cyclists to keep themselves out of that particular scenario (this is the wording since 2012).

Admittedly it may be something of a greyer area if there is a cycle track on the left hand side of the road, as some might argue that the truck has to cross a lane, but it's worth noting that the term in law at the moment is cycle track, not cycle lane, and so that argument is not clearly based in law either.

So while drivers in control of motor vehicles have a responsibility to more vulnerable road users, cyclists also have a legal responsibility not to put themselves in a dangerous position on the left hand side of a vehicle indicating an intention to turn left. Many people overlook this, but it is in SI 332/2012

Chuchote

Yea - just me personally, if there's a line of cars going left, I scoot up to level with the second or third and wait for them to pass. If a bus or truck joins these I'll hop in to the pavement, get off and lift my bike onto the path while it passes me.
If a whole line of cars goes left and the lights change, I'll go up to the front and position myself in the bike box (either riding or wheeling the bike, depending on circumstances).
If you decided to wait behind all cars turning left, there are times in the day when you'd have to wait three hours.
You have to use the titter of sense your mother gave you.

magicbastarder

Chuchote wrote: »

This is a brilliant, brilliant idea.

i assumed it was bleedin' obvious.
even to include something like a red/amber/green warning that someone in front of you may be emergency braking (though this sounds like a potential contagion rather than a warning in certain circumstances); but it seems obvious when it comes to autonomous vehicles that they would talk to each other, so your car will know that a car travelling towards you intends taking a right off the N13 onto the R172, and to expect or allow for that.

though, to be fair, the one piece of technology i've always fantasised most about in the car is a digital display allowing me to send a message to the car behind. e.g. last sunday, to display a message that 'the reason i have bled 20km/h off my speed is because you are driving less than a car length from my rear bumper and are making me very nervous'.

Leroy42

Chuchote wrote: »

Why all the hate?

Apologies if that is how it came across, wasn't my intention (although reading back on it it reads like that).

No hate here.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

i assumed it was bleedin' obvious.
even to include something like a red/amber/green warning that someone in front of you may be emergency braking (though this sounds like a potential contagion rather than a warning in certain circumstances); but it seems obvious when it comes to autonomous vehicles that they would talk to each other, so your car will know that a car travelling towards you intends taking a right off the N13 onto the R172, and to expect or allow for that.

though, to be fair, the one piece of technology i've always fantasised most about in the car is a digital display allowing me to send a message to the car behind. e.g. last sunday, to display a message that 'the reason i have bled 20km/h off my speed is because you are driving less than a car length from my rear bumper and are making me very nervous'.

Feck, why aren't these available? So obvious, and yet no one has thought of them! Should be part of satnav technology - and if they were, would easily be worth €50 on the price!

magicbastarder

unlike other 'smart' systems in your car, this would be easy to firewall - it does not need to accept incoming data, just broadcast it, so there should not be security issues. in terms of privacy, big swinging mickey - it doesn't need to say 'magicbastarder is driving to visit his cocaine dealer' to other drivers, only broadcast info within a certain range which would be obvious to someone looking at the car (but which other cars - rather than their drivers - would be blind to). it could be completely anonymised; maybe the main issue would be that the info could be easily faked.

moc moc a moc

Chuchote wrote: »

Feck, why aren't these available? So obvious, and yet no one has thought of them!

Take a look at Youtube comments to see why giving random idiots a way to communicate with other people relatively anonymously is not always a great idea.

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total ****wad

magicbastarder

i did mention two different ideas, so she may have been giving the thumbs up to the first rather than the second one.

in fairness, while i'd like a way of sending a message to the car behind, it'd be a total distraction to have to process that info from cars in front of you.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

i did mention two different ideas, so she may have been giving the thumbs up to the first rather than the second one.

in fairness, while i'd like a way of sending a message to the car behind, it'd be a total distraction to have to process that info from cars in front of you.

If the information was only on a vehicle that was going to make a manoeuvre, though…

magicbastarder

we have indicators for that, at least. well, most of us do.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

we have indicators for that, at least. well, most of us do.

But for instance "There's a bike on your left" would be useful to trucks, coaches and buses.