Rules of road question

Chuchote

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I drive a jeep. Usually I have no need to cross a white line while passing a cyclist. I mostly drive in & around Dublin. I pass a lot of cyclists every day and a lot pass me in traffic. If I indicate while passing a cyclist & there's plenty of room for both of us cars behind would assume I'm turning right or changing lane. After a while of me using my indicator for no reason they would ignore my indicating. That's not good. Nor a safe way to drive

I wouldn't think so. When I was driving, I took the view that if someone was indicating he was about to move out, for whatever reason, and I hung back a little. Seeing a cyclist, I'd understand that he was giving the cyclist room in case of bad road surface, etc. After all, I can't see through his car!

When I was cycling out with a club many years ago, I was taught that if a door opened in front of me I should slam it shut with my fist, for the safety of both cyclist and door-opener (because otherwise I'd have been likely to run into the person stepping out of the car before I hit the door, broke my fingers on it, somersaulted over the top of the door and cracked my skull). Perhaps this wasn't good advice…

Sleeper12

Chuchote wrote: »

I wouldn't think so. When I was driving, I took the view that if someone was indicating he was about to move out, for whatever reason, and I hung back a little. Seeing a cyclist, I'd understand that he was giving the cyclist room in case of bad road surface, etc. After all, I can't see through his car!

When I was cycling out with a club many years ago, I was taught that if a door opened in front of me I should slam it shut with my fist, for the safety of both cyclist and door-opener (because otherwise I'd have been likely to run into the person stepping out of the car before I hit the door, broke my fingers on it, somersaulted over the top of the door and cracked my skull). Perhaps this wasn't good advice…

When I drive I leave plenty of room for cyclists & usually don't need to cross the white line at all or rarely. Or even move to the right at all. Maybe it's a Dublin thing. Maybe our roads going through Dublin villages are that little bit wider

Chuchote

Sleeper12 wrote: »

When I drive I leave plenty of room for cyclists & usually don't need to cross the white line at all or rarely. Or even move to the right at all. Maybe it's a Dublin thing. Maybe our roads going through Dublin villages are that little bit wider

You probably should move to the right, Sleeper - the roads aren't in good condition. For instance, cycling down Leinster Road yesterday I was in the centre of the road a lot of the time, avoiding the dangerous seams and holes from many years of inadequate road patching.

Sleeper12

Chuchote wrote: »

You probably should move to the right, Sleeper - the roads aren't in good condition. For instance, cycling down Leinster Road yesterday I was in the centre of the road a lot of the time, avoiding the dangerous seams and holes from many years of inadequate road patching.

Nah. I've plenty of room. I don't mind the scratches on the jeep & the blood wipes right off.

Chuchote

Very funny. I have a friend who was trapped with her bicycle under a jeep and dragged along for over 150 metres before the driver noticed her screams and those of people on the street.

randomname2005

Sleeper12 wrote: »

When I drive I leave plenty of room for cyclists & usually don't need to cross the white line at all or rarely. Or even move to the right at all. Maybe it's a Dublin thing. Maybe our roads going through Dublin villages are that little bit wider

They must be quite wide for no part of your car to cross the white line.
A safe distance to pass is 1.5m , added to the width of a car, (1.8m is the width of a VW Golf, not a big car) gives 3.3m. On top of that there is the width of the cyclist's handlebars/widest part of the bike - a round figure of 50cm brings the total to 3.8m. That is 12.5 feet in old money.
I don't know of many lanes which are that wide, considering that the minimum width of a US motorway lane is 3.7 m, 12 ft, (wikipedia).

Sleeper12

Chuchote wrote: »

Very funny. I have a friend who was trapped with her bicycle under a jeep and dragged along for over 150 metres before the driver noticed her screams and those of people on the street.

Wasn't me

Sleeper12

randomname2005 wrote: »

They must be quite wide for no part of your car to cross the white line.
A safe distance to pass is 1.5m , added to the width of a car, (1.8m is the width of a VW Golf, not a big car) gives 3.3m. On top of that there is the width of the cyclist's handlebars/widest part of the bike - a round figure of 50cm brings the total to 3.8m. That is 12.5 feet in old money.
I don't know of many lanes which are that wide, considering that the minimum width of a US motorway lane is 3.7 m, 12 ft, (wikipedia).

I'm just saying most parts of Dublin. I have advanced driving training, driving 30 years & never a tip & I drive 400 to 500 moles every week. Lots of drivers shouldn't be on the road at all.

Chips Lovell

Locked for review

Chips Lovell

Thread open again. It started out so well, so let's try get back to that.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Nah. I've plenty of room. I don't mind the scratches on the jeep & the blood wipes right off.

@Sleeper12. Don't post in this thread again.

TheQuietFella

magicbastarder wrote: »

you did notice that the OP came into the cycling thread to confirm whether her daughter was in the wrong? not exactly washing her hands of the situation in the way you suggest.

He 'needed' someone to tell him that his daughter was in the wrong? He was looking for 'a get out of jail card'

cjt156

Me, ages ago wrote:

Stuff.

Sigh...

Chips Lovell

TheQuietFella wrote: »

He 'needed' someone to tell him that his daughter was in the wrong? He was looking for 'a get out of jail card'

Seriously? Straight after we reopen the thread?

OP politely asked a genuine question. Less of the aggression please. This is meant to be a welcoming place.

mr spuckler

and to think early doors there was much satisfaction at the mature discussion that was developing

think it's all been covered for the OP already. for me the legal angle made an interesting read. thanks all.

and chuchote, i'm definitely stealing that picture for future use!

Jawgap

this thread is like me on a Saturday night out! Point at which I've had four pints and can catch the last bus home......

cjt156 wrote: »

What's this?!

A reasoned and mature discussion ending on a point of clarification and resolution?

Where's the 'all cyclists are lycropaths', 'cage drivers must die', 'cinema is a dying artform consumed by teenage blockbuster-ism' escalation?

Pfft, /unsubscribe.

Yay, somebody's given me a double vodka and Red Bull.....

Sleeper12 wrote: »

........ It's the weekend warriors in their lycra gear that should be locked up.

I would've thought moving up the inside of stalled or slow moving traffic is fine as long as there's a bit of common sense applied. The only criticism, perhaps, is that the OP didn't pull in to let their daughter out, or didn't check themselves to see if anyone was mooching up the inside?

Dermot Illogical

I would recommend advanced driving training (mentioned somewhere above) to anyone. It's well worth doing, primarily because it makes you think about what you're at. Everything on the road is seen as a hazard to be negotiated.
In the OP's case as driver, s/he needs to control any passengers opening doors having evaluated hazards by looking to see if any are entering the door area. Pulling in to the side of the road, having indicated first of course, gives other traffic a strong visual signal that a door is about to open. It also limits the ability of a hazard to move into the danger zone. Allowing a passenger to simply open a door while queuing in traffic is not likely to end well, medically or legally.

As for the overtaking cyclists within the lane scenario, that would need to be one very wide lane. Anyone with an advanced driving mindset will anticipate the worst possible scenario and allow room for it. The cyclist could have a sudden and catastrophic mechanical problem and suddenly be six or more feet to the right or left of expected position. They could hit a pothole, get spooked by a dog, spin off on oil...whatever. No advanced driver worth their salt would simply ignore a hazard and fail to negotiate it correctly. In the case of passing a cyclist that means moving out to the right and leaving at least 3m. If speeds are higher (like on a big wide national route), it means moving out further again or slowing down.

ciaeim

ciaeim wrote: »

tonight while driving through town i came to a standstill in traffic and my daughter who was in rear seat passenger side goes to get out of car, she never looked and almost caught a cyclist with the door, my question is do cyclists have the right to pass on the left ? I cycle a lot myself and am unsure as whether u can pass on left or not ,, this is just for information purposes only, no one got hurt thank god and all went on our merryway.. so single lane, stopped in traffic, daughter opens door without looking, cyclist passes on inside . who is wrong in eyes of the law?

All I wanted when i came on here was an answer to two questions that i was unsure about. 1) can cyclists pass on left ? 2) who is wrong in eyes of law. Judging by the debate so far they were good questions. Several posters have said i should have pulled in to kerb before she attempted to get out. Couldn't do that as were parked cars on left. She/we were careless and will learn from it. And i don't need anyone telling me that I came on here to portion blame elsewhere. Oh and on most of the roads in this country if you are passing a cyclist whilst keeping a safe distance from them then u will cross white line and should use indicator to inform other road users that you are making a manoeuvre. (That's if their are white lines)

BoatMad

ciaeim wrote: »

All I wanted when i came on here was an answer to two questions that i was unsure about. 1) can cyclists pass on left ? 2) who is wrong in eyes of law. Judging by the debate so far they were good questions. Several posters have said i should have pulled in to kerb before she attempted to get out. Couldn't do that as were parked cars on left. She/we were careless and will learn from it. And i don't need anyone telling me that I came on here to portion blame elsewhere. Oh and on most of the roads in this country if you are passing a cyclist whilst keeping a safe distance from them then u will cross white line and should use indicator to inform other road users that you are making a manoeuvre. (That's if their are white lines)

It's clear from the law, that onus is placed on both parties. Neither have unrestrained rights. That's all that can be said , both you and the cyclist have a responsibility. The law is not pedantic

Gator88

ciaeim wrote: »

All I wanted when i came on here was an answer to two questions that i was unsure about. 1) can cyclists pass on left ? 2) who is wrong in eyes of law. Judging by the debate so far they were good questions. Several posters have said i should have pulled in to kerb before she attempted to get out. Couldn't do that as were parked cars on left. She/we were careless and will learn from it. And i don't need anyone telling me that I came on here to portion blame elsewhere. Oh and on most of the roads in this country if you are passing a cyclist whilst keeping a safe distance from them then u will cross white line and should use indicator to inform other road users that you are making a manoeuvre. (That's if their are white lines)

I think OPs questions were answered on the first page. 1. Cyclists can & are supposed to pass on the left in most circimstances 2. The driver of the car is at fault not the cyclist. In fairness OP said from the outset that her daughter opened without looking. She didn't try to hide this.

Even pedestrians are supposed to know the rules of the road. Its been my belief that it should be an exam subject in school. It's one thing you will use after school for the rest of your life

I drive a jeep. Usually I have no need to cross a white line while passing a cyclist. I mostly drive in & around Dublin. I pass a lot of cyclists every day and a lot pass me in traffic. If I indicate while passing a cyclist & there's plenty of room for both of us cars behind would assume I'm turning right or changing lane. After a while of me using my indicator for no reason they would ignore my indicating. That's not good. Nor a safe way to drive

This one grabbed me this morning. This morning I had several meetings. I drove from Malahide to the summit of Howth. Howth to Dun Laoghaire via coast road & East Link. Dun Laoghaire to Crumlin. Crumlin to Griffith Ave. Then on to Ballymun followed by Swords. There was a hairy bit for 100 yards from Coombe to St Patricks Catheral where I couldn't pass a cyclist and had to follow behind her.

The whole rest of the jorney there was ample room to pass cyclists safely. There would have been a good 2 yards space for the cyclists between the footpath and my car and my car never crossed the white line once. Nor did I need an indicator as I didn't have to move out at all. Remember there are much bigger vehicles on the road. Busses, trucks etc

Now none of this supprised me because I reliased after reading the post above that I would rarely need to move oround cyclists. Here's what not just supprised me it blew me away! Bus lanes everywhere. Cycle lanes everywhere. In some places there was a cycle lane, then bus lane and then car lanes all side by side. I'm amazed I've been driving around Dublin not noticie. I think at the back of my mind I assumed that the only cycle lanes were the Red ones. Now I know some cycle lanes are very narrow & it's usually the worst part of the road to cycle on but some are huge. Parts of the Howth road the cycle lane is big enough to park a car in. Sadly some people do treat it as a parking space.

Chuchote

I think most people are talking about Dublin city centre, where the 30km/h limit will make a big difference to safety and road sharing, if it's enforced and accepted.

BoatMad

I think OPs questions were answered on the first page. 1. Cyclists can & are supposed to pass on the left in most circimstances 2. The driver of the car is at fault not the cyclist. In fairness OP said from the outset that her daughter opened without looking. She didn't try to hide this.

The question was answered that clearly the SI does not provide for unrestrained rights. Its up to both parties to act responsibly. What the SI does not cover is how a cyclist is to determine whether a passenger is alighting or not. If there was a dispute, which has not happened in this case it would be up to a judge to decide on the apportionment of blame.

merely because the motorist admitted that she didnt look , does not in itself therefor exonerate the cyclist or remove from them the responsibilities assigned to them when passing own the left in the SI

BoatMad

Chuchote wrote: »

I think most people are talking about Dublin city centre, where the 30km/h limit will make a big difference to safety and road sharing, if it's enforced and accepted.

for a few streets 30km is acceptable if almost totally unenforceable

outside that its a general nonsense

Chuchote

BoatMad wrote: »

for a few streets 30km is acceptable if almost totally unenforceable

outside that its a general nonsense

The norm in many cities, and works well, ensuring steady and stable traffic flow rather than stop-start rushes from one set of traffic lights to the next.

BoatMad

Chuchote wrote: »

The norm in many cities, and works well, ensuring steady and stable traffic flow rather than stop-start rushes from one set of traffic lights to the next.

reducing speed in itself does little to control traffic flow, it makes no improvement on journey times

if one reads the various reports that have been published , some large scale trials where carried out in the UK, its clear that even the safety benefits are over stated as well, with many concluding that simple enforcement of existing rules coupled with engineering changes to the roads, would also moist likely have achieved the same result.

30km is a political process, not a process led by demonstrable facts. I would argue that the pedestrianisation of certain areas of Dublin , would be far preferable to widespread 30km nonsense

Chuchote

BoatMad wrote: »

I would argue that the pedestrianisation of certain areas of Dublin , would be far preferable to widespread 30km nonsense

Now you're talking my language!

BoatMad

Chuchote wrote: »

Now you're talking my language!

yes, far better to prioritise road users into faster corridors and provide them with some priority while at the same time removing all vehicular traffic from major urban centres. cyclists in pedestrianised areas should be also banned or at least subject to a 5Km speed limit

Gator88

Chuchote wrote: »

I think most people are talking about Dublin city centre, where the 30km/h limit will make a big difference to safety and road sharing, if it's enforced and accepted.

Sorry. I didn't want my post to be too long.
From St Patricks Catheral I went under Christ Church crossed the Liffey turned right onto the Quays, down by Bus Aras, connelly's station, North Strand, Fairview & onto Malahide Road

Just before Christ Church, near the turn left to Thomas Street looked a bit rough if there were cyclists there. Crossing the liffey looked dodgy and Bus Aras. Having said that it's a 30km zone, the only cyclists I'd be overtaking there are ones that weren't moving. In a 30km zone it's safer and just as quick to drive behind them.
Out of all my driving this morning I would hazzard a guess that a half of one percent of my journey was without bus lanes or cycle lanes. This was just this morning. Perhaps when schools let out and it's lashing rain I might have to actually overtake a cyclist or a few, rather than just passing them by.

Jawgap

Chuchote wrote: »

I think most people are talking about Dublin city centre, where the 30km/h limit will make a big difference to safety and road sharing, if it's enforced and accepted.

.....by drivers......it won't apply to cyclists

p15574

I got doored badly by a passenger alighting from a car in the middle lane of 5 lanes of stopped traffic (Stephen's Green). In general, I would expect, if a passenger is getting out, for the car to
a) pull in to the side of the road, and
b) put the indicator on
As a cyclist, if the car has pulled in close enough to the kerb, a) alone might be sufficient to anticipate a door opening, but certainly if the car had its indicator on I wouldn't undertake.

It's more complicated in the OP's case, there being parked cars on the left. In this situation, and in the "5 lanes" situation I encountered myself, if I was the driver I would make sure to warn the passenger to check for cyclists before opening the door (maybe only because it was battered into me - literally - on the receiving end...)