New car sales are up 20% but electric car sales are down 20%

unkel

The economy is booming, consumer confidence is back, people are getting loans (zero or low interest) and so new car sales are up 20% year to date compared with last year. All makes sense.

Except how come the sales of Electric Cars is falling through the floor? Sales are down 20%.

Quite shocked by this. All the subsidies for EV are still there, there is still free charging at charging points throughout the country and you can still get a free home installation of a charging point afaik, all courtesy of the tax payer. What's happening here?

Big Nasty

Electric Vehicles forum is thattaway >>>>>>

TBi

Range anxiety, uncertainty over battery longevity and cheap petrol/diesel are probably all reasons.

jimmycrackcorm

unkel wrote:

Except how come the sales of Electric Cars is falling through the floor? Sales are down 20%.

Not surprising IMO as there's nothing much new in the electric car world from mainstream manufacturers. What new models have been introduced recently?

Bigus

Tech is changing too quickly and there's a raft of better products on the way soon. Cars are not like phones people can't afford to discard them like old phones when the new model comes out so they'll wait for models with better real world range.

Special Circumstances

"Green" policy made it hard to look beyond "clean diesel".
Levying the "dirty" petrol made even hybrids less appealing than they should have been compared to diesels.

Pseudo science FTW!

The half price bike every 5 years is nice though.

Leonard Hofstadter

To be fair, a PHEV is by far the best option if one wants an eco friendly car, no range anxiety or anything like that to worry about. Also, the Leaf's been around a good while now, so all the people who want one probably have one at this stage.

PHEVs are definitely the future, no diesel engine nonsense, zero emissions around town (which is exactly where we need ZE cars in the context of human health) and the convenience and refinement of the petrol engine when one runs out of charge. No DPFs or anything like that to worry about, either, even when stuff like particulate filters comes into petrol engines there will be nothing to worry about with a PHEV because around town they'll be on electric and out of town they can use the combustion engine, and if particulate filters in petrols are anything like they are in diesels, it's around town where the problems lie and the combustion engine will only be on at high speeds where filter will never clog up anyway.

Another advantage of a PHEV is that because the engine will be running less often, and is far more likely to be not running in conditions which shorten the engine's life (such as town driving, or short distance stop-start driving), cars will be able to clock up more miles before suffering a problem that is too expensive to repair. After all, many PHEVs use the same engine as the conventional model in the range, the gearboxes are the same (usually) and an electric motor has only like one part.

Atlantic Dawn

With the price of petrol and diesel so low there's less temptation to go to new technology with limitations on range.

demanufactured

I'll stick to my big diesel for my daily commute.

TBi

captainspeed wrote: »

PHEVs are definitely the future, no diesel engine nonsense, zero emissions around town (which is exactly where we need ZE cars in the context of human health) and the convenience and refinement of the petrol engine when one runs out of charge.

People are already ripping the DPF's out of their cars without any care for the health issues, do you really think they are going to run their PHEV's in battery mode around town? Who's going to police it?

Special Circumstances

captainspeed wrote: »

To be fair, a PHEV is by far the best option if one wants an eco friendly car...

The Green scienticians disagree! :pac:

Stuck behind a diesel as usual round town, fierce clean and environmental, how could anyone even think they aren't clean!

josip

Did 11,000km around Europe this summer.
4 of those days were 900km+
When I can do that in an EV I'll get one.

H3llR4iser

OSI wrote: »

I reckon the bulk of people that would be willing to be early adopters of EVs have already done so, consider then that most finance deals are 3 years, I wouldn't be surprised if EV sales followed a 3 year cycle.

I'd think along the same line - the current market niche has been somewhat saturated, and it'll be a while before it reopens.

There is indeed also the factor of a constantly improving technology and the fact that most of the involved manufacturers have been claiming to be on the verge of dramathic improvements for years doesn't help - people can't be blamed for "sitting on the fence"; Plus there's a bit of a "gadget-like" marketing pitch surrounding EVs, which is frankly appaling - a car ain't a smartphone that'll go in the bin in 2-3 years time maximum.

Last, infrastructure - as much as the local authorities and ESB bang the drum, they are still lacking and often, unfortunately, abused. Around my office there are a couple of "fast-charge" points, which are routinely occupied by german saloons with a big fat "TDI" badge on the back...

mickdw

josip wrote: »

Did 11,000km around Europe this summer.
4 of those days were 900km+
When I can do that in an EV I'll get one.

Phev will do it better than a traditional petrol. Depending on mileage between charges, could well be cheaper than a diesel.

josip

mickdw wrote: »

Phev will do it better than a traditional petrol. Depending on mileage between charges, could well be cheaper than a diesel.

Where is the battery in the PHEVs ?

Oafley Jones

josip wrote: »

Where is the battery in the PHEVs ?

Depends on the car. Can be in the boot or the floor of the chassis. People do need to be aware of how overstated the efficiency gains can be in these. The father in laws xc90 is firmly stuck at 10.9l/100 for example. The main benefit seems to be in performance and tax.

josip

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Depends on the car. Can be in the boot or the floor of the chassis. People do need to be aware of how overstated the efficiency gains can be in these. The father in laws xc90 is firmly stuck at 10.9l/100 for example. The main benefit seems to be in performance and tax.

Jaysus, what are the real world consumption figures for non PHEV XC90s?
Perhaps the fuel consumption data is on "Long term" and not "Since Refuel" or "Since Start"?

Oafley Jones

josip wrote: »

Jaysus, what are the real world consumption figures for non PHEV XC90s?
Perhaps the fuel consumption data is on "Long term" and not "Since Refuel" or "Since Start"?

Obviously depends on use case but I'd imagine for a lot of people it'll Probably be better. He didn't buy for economy though, he had the d5 for a weekend and found it lacking in performance.

Sh1tbag OToole

Electric cars have become big data collection points that send gigabytes of driving habits back to the manufacturer to train their mechanical driving monkey for the next version and probably make a few quid from selling your data to advertisers as well

mickdw

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Depends on the car. Can be in the boot or the floor of the chassis. People do need to be aware of how overstated the efficiency gains can be in these. The father in laws xc90 is firmly stuck at 10.9l/100 for example. The main benefit seems to be in performance and tax.

Ok well everyone knows that you won't get 160 mpg in average even if they advertise such a figure on some of them. Still if you can run for 20 miles on electric power after a charge, and 20 miles or alittle more suits your daily useage, you will get very very cheap miles.
I think they are a fantastic idea. All electric on the school run. All the range you could ever need from the petrol engine and lots and lots of performance from many models. In the case of bmw 330e, 250 bhp petrol electric and cheaper than a 318d.

Oafley Jones

mickdw wrote: »

Ok well everyone knows that you won't get 160 mpg in average even if they advertise such a figure on some of them. Still if you can run for 20 miles on electric power after a charge, and 20 miles or alittle more suits your daily useage, you will get very very cheap miles.
I think they are a fantastic idea. All electric on the school run. All the range you could ever need from the petrol engine and lots and lots of performance from many models. In the case of bmw 330e, 250 bhp petrol electric and cheaper than a 318d.

Of course but It's still more than a bit disappointing that it's outperformed (in terms of economy) by a Rx450h with a hybrid system that's 8 years old. Stunning car though.

Low to no BIK on electric ish cars regardless of mileage (ie including hybrids & PHEV not just Leaf type yokes) would get sales on the up, the government would still take in revenue from the fuel sale.

Other than that there's no incentive to get mainstream motorists to go any way electric imo.

carsfan2

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Of course but It's still more than a bit disappointing that it's outperformed (in terms of economy) by a Rx450h with a hybrid system that's 8 years old. Stunning car though.

I recently bought a 330e and in mixed driving without trying to be economical I have a long term average of 66 mpg. My sister had a RX 450h and never got over 40 mpg overall. The BMW is a lot faster too.
Phev's are a good idea for some drivers but all electric has a way to go but will come. I guess in 15/20 years we will all drive electric or plug ins and diesel will be in the minority if available at all.

zilog_jones

PHEVs only make sense if you're doing a lot of city driving or have a short commute - which doesn't suit a lot of people in this country. And the choice in Ireland is terrible - there's the Outlander PHEV, Golf GTE, Audi A3 e-tron, a few BMWs, a couple of Volvos - and that's it?

I had to go to the UK to get a Prius PHV (Toyota Ireland never bothered selling them), and it works very well with my short (6km) commute. I'm averaging about 77 MPG so far, and it's costing about half as much to run as my old diesel (including cost of charging, which is <30c a day).

Alanstrainor

I've noticed a good few BMW 330e's on my commute recently, I know if I had the cash to buy a small 4 door saloon I'd probably be looking an an M-Sport model. I can't say I'd look at an EV, despite my journeys being very short for the most part.

carsfan2

carsfan2 wrote: »

I recently bought a 330e and in mixed driving without trying to be economical I have a long term average of 66 mpg. My sister had a RX 450h and never got over 40 mpg overall. The BMW is a lot faster too........

To be fair you'd expect what's sort of a full fat 4x4 to use more than a drop more of fuel than a junior exec sized saloon

unkel

Augeo wrote: »

To be fair you'd expect what's sort of a full fat 4x4 to use more than a drop more of fuel than a junior exec sized saloon

It wasn't carsfan2 who made the idiotic claim that an old full fat 4x4 used less fuel than a modern junior exec sized saloon :pac:

Oafley Jones

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Depends on the car. Can be in the boot or the floor of the chassis. People do need to be aware of how overstated the efficiency gains can be in these. The father in laws xc90 is firmly stuck at 10.9l/100 for example. The main benefit seems to be in performance and tax.

unkel wrote: »

It wasn't carsfan2 who made the idiotic claim that an old full fat 4x4 used less fuel than a modern junior exec sized saloon :pac:

No one made that claim, Oafley Jones was comparing the plug in XC90 to the hybrid Lexus

Scottie99

josip wrote: »

Did 11,000km around Europe this summer.
4 of those days were 900km+
When I can do that in an EV I'll get one.

You can... #Tesla
Did you take a break driving 900+km? Yes, then you can supercharge..

_kookie

I nearly bought an electric car.

I had my mind made up to buy a 162 Nissan Leaf electric car last July.
But just before I was to meet the dealer I heard a friend of mine had one and got her to bring me for a nice long drive in it.
I was loving the car - until we pulled in to charge it up so we could go home.

There was a person charging their car already there.
We had to wait almost 20 minutes for them to finish. During which time another Nissan Leaf pulled up and asked us could they charge first as they had a meeting to go to. My friend had to collect her kids from playschool so we couldnt let him go first anyway.
We were sat charging for another 20 minutes by the time we had enough to go home.

So that was 45 minutes in total waiting around for it to charge. And the other guy must have been waiting an hour at least.

That changed my mind fairly sharpish. It was not a nice experience. Maybe that works for people who have nothing to do and all day to do it, but not for me.

And I so loved the car. But its not for me. In the end I bought a petrol car.

carsfan2

I understood the comparison was between 330e and Lexus.
Apologies if I was incorrect.

Charles Babbage

TBi wrote: »

captainspeed wrote: »

PHEVs are definitely the future, no diesel engine nonsense, zero emissions around town (which is exactly where we need ZE cars in the context of human health) and the convenience and refinement of the petrol engine when one runs out of charge.

People are already ripping the DPF's out of their cars without any care for the health issues, do you really think they are going to run their PHEV's in battery mode around town? Who's going to police it?

If the overnight charge is cheaper than the fuel then surely people will tend to use the battery around town without enormous policing?

This could suit me, Monday to Friday I have a fairly short trips in the suburbs, I can park in the drive and charge, but at weekends I often drive out of town when I would probably welcome an engine for range reasons.

hmmm

I suspect we are past the early adopter stage of purchasers, who will purchase an EV irrespective of any downsides, and are into trying to make sales to the ordinary public. Range anxiety is an issue, but that looks like it will get much better over the next few years. The charging infrastructure is utter rubbish - not knowing whether a charger is free, broken chargers, people parking at a public charger and going on holidays for 2 weeks, etc. etc, the ESB coming out with what look like crazy prices. Utter rubbish.

In saying all that, I wouldn't be surprised if our next car purchase will probably be electric.

josip

Scottie99 wrote: »

You can... #Tesla
Did you take a break driving 900+km? Yes, then you can supercharge..

Nope.
Part of the 1st 900km day was Reims to Geneva via Besancon. At least 558km in between chargers.
Days 2 and 3 were down the Balkan peninsula.

Scottie99

josip wrote: »

Nope.
Part of the 1st 900km day was Reims to Geneva via Besancon. At least 558km in between chargers.
Days 2 and 3 were down the Balkan peninsula.

They're are other charges..

ei9go

Perhaps, the attempt by the ESB to charge for the electricity is a big part of the reason for the drop in sales.

Remember 2008 when people spent tens of thousand to get 105 Euro road tax.

It does beg the question as to whether any of the 80 mile electric cars make any sense if you have to pay for the electricity.

It seems to me that electric cars are great as long as you have a diesel whenever you want to go anywhere.

_kookie

ei9go wrote: »

Perhaps, the attempt by the ESB to charge for the electricity is a big part of the reason for the drop in sales.

Remember 2008 when people spent tens of thousand to get 105 Euro road tax.

It does beg the question as to whether any of the 80 mile electric cars make any sense if you have to pay for the electricity.

It seems to me that electric cars are great as long as you have a diesel whenever you want to go anywhere.

This weighed on my decision also.
As well as the long wait for charging if it was needed, i read about the ESBs planned subscription charge whether you needed to use it or not. Add that to the ridiculous charges they wanted to implement and even if I could live with a long wait at a charger I would probably be robbed blind by the ESB should I absolutely need an outside charger.

It made me feel that I was there to be gouged, but just didnt know by how much yet. So all things considered I chickened out of the sale.

ei9go

ei9go wrote: »

It does beg the question as to whether any of the 80 mile electric cars make any sense if you have to pay for the electricity.

I have to pay for my electricity.

I plug in at home every second night or so. It costs us roughly 7 yoyo a week (80 odd kWh at 8 c/kWh) for the privilege of driving around 500 km per week on average. Haven't really used the public charging that often recently but in grand scheme of things say two public fast charges a month for a trip beyond the range would add 12 yoyo and make the electricity spend to increase from approx 30->40 EUR a month. Hardly that expensive for 2000 kilometers of driving a month

Even a 5 liter/100km diesel would cost €110 per month for similar distance.

unkel

Augeo wrote: »

No one made that claim, Oafley Jones was comparing the plug in XC90 to the hybrid Lexus

Ha! My bad. No idiots so, except myself for making the wrong assumption.

It does help if people don't quote full posts but only parts relevant to what they are about to reply to, is all I'm saying in my defense

josip

Scottie99 wrote: »

They're are other charges..

How long do other chargers take to charge a Tesla?

Scottie99

Rapids are 50kW

josip

Scottie99 wrote: »

Rapids are 50kW

How long do other chargers take to charge a Tesla?

theoneeyedman

unkel wrote: »

The economy is booming, consumer confidence is back, people are getting loans (zero or low interest) and so new car sales are up 20% year to date compared with last year. All makes sense.

Except how come the sales of Electric Cars is falling through the floor? Sales are down 20%.

Quite shocked by this. All the subsidies for EV are still there, there is still free charging at charging points throughout the country and you can still get a free home installation of a charging point afaik, all courtesy of the tax payer. What's happening here?

Borrowing German money to buy stuff, in many cases German stuff, with money we don't have....what could possibly go wrong?!?

unkel

Haha, history repeating itself. Well hopefully not of course. It's just that with easy credit approval and zero cost of credit you can understand why people are going for the PCP plans (and the shiny brand new cars) in their thousands.

Personally, I've never taken out finance to buy a car. Probably never will either.

Phil.x

Too expensive.

unkel

What do you mean, Phil.x? EVs are too expensive?

I beg to differ. You can have a brand new Nissan Leaf, with the bigger charger, metallic paint for €21k all-in. That's about the same as many other cars in this class that have a petrol engine.

And once you buy it, running it is extremely cheap. The tax is €120, insurance is very low, you get a free charger installed in your home and "filling it up" will cost €2 on night rate electricity. Public charging points are completely free. A full annual service at Nissan costs just €90 incl VAT

Phil.x

Sorry was thinking of hybrids.

If the nissan/Renault was about €11k new I still wouldn't buy it.

Really... Why would you want to drive a leaf, why get a car loan or spend your savings on this when there's some much better out there.
YOUR not going to save the planet by buying one.

freshpopcorn

You can use your phone when it's charging but you can't use your car when it's charging!

unkel

Phil.x wrote: »

Why would you want to drive a leaf, why get a car loan or spend your savings on this when there's some much better out there.

If you're in the market for a 5 seater brand new car for about €20k, there really isn't "much better out there" than a Leaf. It's a cheap family car. There are other cheap family cars. None of them are great. None of them are terrible either.

And you save yourself a fortune on running / owning a Leaf compared to a similar car with an internal combustion engine. Obviously having to charge the car and the limited range must suit your needs.

I drove one myself and it's not bad at all. It feels heavy and safe and the acceleration from nought to maybe 30km/h is quicker than most cars, even ones with far more powerful engines.

I'm genuinely surprised that the pick up of these heavily subsidised cars wasn't greater this year. I did not expect sales to dramatically fall.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

If you're in the market for a 5 seater brand new car for about €20k, there really isn't "much better out there" than a Leaf. It's a cheap family car. There are other cheap family cars. None of them are great. None of them are terrible either.................
I'm genuinely surprised that the pick up of these heavily subsidised cars wasn't greater this year. I did not expect sales to dramatically fall.

The Duster is probably outselling it by a factor of 10 and most Duster drivers quite likely do little miles (guessing on both accounts admittedly).

Marcusm

unkel wrote: »

If you're in the market for a 5 seater brand new car for about €20k, there really isn't "much better out there" than a Leaf. It's a cheap family car. There are other cheap family cars. None of them are great. None of them are terrible either.

And you save yourself a fortune on running / owning a Leaf compared to a similar car with an internal combustion engine. Obviously having to charge the car and the limited range must suit your needs.

I drove one myself and it's not bad at all. It feels heavy and safe and the acceleration from nought to maybe 30km/h is quicker than most cars, even ones with far more powerful engines.

I'm genuinely surprised that the pick up of these heavily subsidised cars wasn't greater this year. I did not expect sales to dramatically fall.

Jaysus, has Mad_Lad hacked your account?