Wayne f*cking Rooney

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Didn't get to see the England game. Was he as bad as people are making out?

Flint Fredstone

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Didn't get to see the England game. Was he as bad as people are making out?

Early days but was like watching a Hodgson team.

On Rooney: As a #10 he hardly stepped foot inside the box. His obsession with dropping deep was even more apparent. Played a few Hollywood passes. That's pretty much his contribution.

Cantona's Collars

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Early days but was like watching a Hodgson team.

On Rooney: As a #10 he hardly stepped foot inside the box. His obsession with dropping deep was even more apparent. Played a few Hollywood passes. That's pretty much his contribution.

3 key passes,sure that's more than acceptable against Slovakia. He didn't have a single touch in their box and lost the ball 19 times. The damning bit is Sam saying that he's the captain and can play where he wants when questioned on his positioning. A performance like that against city and we may as well be playing with 10 men.

Leroy42

To me, its the combination of his form for both MU and England that the most damning. Either in isolation can be put down to others around him being poor, but for him to be pretty much the same for both teams points to the problem being him.

Now, people will point out the assists and goals etc, and of course these are very important but it is not just a case of saying he achieves X amount and thus he is doing enough, the debate really is about if there are others that can do his job better than him.

In the England case, Rooney has never been, and will never be, a deep lying midfielder. They have players like Drinkwater that can do that job far better. The No.10 role could be done by Sterling, Lallana etc. They might not be world beaters at it either but they would bring something new and dynamic.

And there are a load of stickers that should be ahead of him. Vardy, Kane (although he has been pants for the last few months), Rashford, Sturridge, hell even Dafoe in Sunderland is scoring more frequently.

So its not that he is rubbish, just that, IMO, there are others who are playing better in each position that it seems he wants to play.

The same can be argued for MU as well. The only thing is that all his managers seem to be content to play him so they must be seeing something that we, well me at least, are not. It can't be that everyone of them is overawed by Rooney's standing and willing to put their own careers on the line just to play him.

Richard Hillman

A good option from the bench

Big Statement from Big Sam to say that he cannot tell Rooney where to play. During the 2014 World Cup, Sterling and Sturridge were the most in form players in the league but spent most of their time filling Rooneys gaps when he went wandering. A similar thing happened with Dele Alli during the Euros.

Are they ever going to accept that Rooneys wandering destabilises the rest of the team? He is not of Ronaldo/Messi standard of where you can just accept it.

StringerBell

eagle eye wrote: »

You see this comes across as a statement of fact. It says that you are saying that Jose Mourinho is wrong to start Wayne Rooney ergo it says that you are stating that you know more about it than Jose Mourinho.

Without even getting in to the Rooney debate, it is incredibly dumb to begin anything from a starting point of you cannot disagree with a decision of the manager and be right.

Cantona's Collars

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Big Statement from Big Sam to say that he cannot tell Rooney where to play. During the 2014 World Cup, Sterling and Sturridge were the most in form players in the league but spent most of their time filling Rooneys gaps when he went wandering. A similar thing happened with Dele Alli during the Euros.

Are they ever going to accept that Rooneys wandering destabilises the rest of the team? He is not of Ronaldo/Messi standard of where you can just accept it.

He wanted to play as a striker,Rashford came in out of necessity and completely outperformed him,he moved to midfield and games passed him by.There are better players for each position he plays in yet managers still try to shoehorn him into teams.Any other player who consistently put in the performances he is now serving up would not grace the pitch.
LVG's safety first game suited him as all he had to do was pass the ball 5 yards sideways or backwards with the usual sprinkling of floated balls to the right wing.Now that Jose has the team playing a higher tempo those defincies in his game that were hidden are once more being exposed.

Gringo180

He's not worth keeping around

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Didn't get to see the England game. Was he as bad as people are making out?

No. He was one of Englands better players. He whipped in one superb cross that Zidane or Beckham would be proud of, where England should of definitely scored. Some people seem to think once he doesnt score hes had a bad game.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Gringo180 wrote: »

Some people seem to think once he doesnt score hes had a bad game.

It's funny that. It's the other way around with United fans. He could play sh*te for 91 minutes and then put in a nice assist and all of a sudden he had a great game :pac:

Cantona's Collars

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

It's funny that. It's the other way around with United fans. He could play sh*te for 91 minutes and then put in a nice assist and all of a sudden he had a great game :pac:

It's called "The Stevie G Syndrome",he started doing the same,moving all over the pitch and doing SFA,then scoring a goal and all the crap before is forgotten.Liverpool fans copped onto that and United fans are doing the same with Rooney.

keane2097

Great to see eagle eye back to his best. Big love.

Jayop

He's not worth keeping around

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

It's funny that. It's the other way around with United fans. He could play sh*te for 91 minutes and then put in a nice assist and all of a sudden he had a great game :pac:

Show us where that's been the case here? More rubbish from you.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Jayop wrote: »

Show us where that's been the case here? More rubbish from you.

I didn't say anything about here.

Jayop

He's not worth keeping around

Where then? Show me where anyone said he was great against hull. Surely if it's such a big issue for you you'll be able to find one example.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Jayop wrote: »

Show us where that's been the case here? More rubbish from you.

Pro F and possibly one or two others were defending his performance as far as I remember. If I'm wrong or slightly incorrect it will be pointed out I'm sure but thats how I and a few others it seemed picked it up. It was in the general Manchester United thread.

I thought he was average to poor.

Jayop

He's not worth keeping around

Nalz wrote: »

Pro F and possibly one or two others were defending his performance as far as I remember. If I'm wrong or slightly incorrect it will be pointed out I'm sure but thats how I and a few others it seemed picked it up. It was in the general Manchester United thread.

I thought he was average to poor.

You are wrong. What I remember is saying he wasn't great in that game, worse in the first half, decent in the second and provided a great assist. No one said anything more positive than that.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Jayop wrote: »

You are wrong. What I remember is saying he wasn't great in that game, worse in the first half, decent in the second and provided a great assist. No one said anything more positive than that.

I think you'll find Pro. F said he was class...
You'll have to look for that yourself too.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Jayop wrote: »

Where then? Show me where anyone said he was great against hull. Surely if it's such a big issue for you you'll be able to find one example.

I'm not wasting my time looking for someone that said he was great for you. Go search on Twitter yourself if you're that bothered. I know what I've read and heard from people.

Jayop

He's not worth keeping around

Ah OK. I forgot that's your style. Wild statements and I nothing to back them up.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Jayop wrote: »

Ah OK. I forgot that's your style. Wild statements and I nothing to back them up.

Search Pro. F's posts for the word class. Not that hard. I'm not here at your beck and call.

Jayop

He's not worth keeping around

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Search Pro. F's posts for the word class. Not that hard. I'm not here at your beck and call.

No you're here to make statements that you're unprepared to back up.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Jayop wrote: »

No you're here to make statements that you're unprepared to back up.

You want me to go look for that post?

Jayop

He's not worth keeping around

Go for it. Show me a post saying he had a great game against hull.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Jayop wrote: »

Go for it. Show me a post saying he had a great game against hull.

I wasn't offering. I was asking if that's what you wanted me to do.

I don't really care if you don't believe that was said. I've explained to you how to search for it yourself if you really want to see it that bad.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Jayop wrote: »

Go for it. Show me a post saying he had a great game against hull.

---

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100824547&postcount=1327

Pro. F wrote: »

Rooney was class today even before the assist. It is ridiculous how little credit he gets.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100824672&postcount=1338

Pro. F wrote: »

Nonsense.

The above was reply when someone mentioned he was just ok

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100824661&postcount=1336

Pro. F wrote: »

Rooney didn't slow down the attacks in the slightest. He was by far our best player for linking up the play, all game

Jayop

He's not worth keeping around

Fair play. One person said it so.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Jayop wrote: »

Fair play. One person said it so.

A few liked\thanked his posts too. Anyways you got what you asked for

Pro. F

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

It's funny that. It's the other way around with United fans. He could play sh*te for 91 minutes and then put in a nice assist and all of a sudden he had a great game :pac:

Can you show that I changed my opinion of his play in the first 91 minutes of the game after he got that assist? No you can't. You are talking bollocks.

edgecutter

This is the first time I actually think British journalists have focused on Rooney and now for the first time ever they are asking big questions of the undroppable one. Interesting times ahead and you feel Rooney needs to pull something out of the bag on Saturday to get rid of the heat.

Cookiemunster

edgecutter wrote: »

This is the first time I actually think British journalists have focused on Rooney and now for the first time ever they are asking big questions of the undroppable one. Interesting times ahead and you feel Rooney needs to pull something out of the bag on Saturday to get rid of the heat.

They guys on TV are the only ones still defending him. If you listen to some of the football pods like football weekly or second captain's you won't find any of the print journos defending him.

Paully D

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Big Statement from Big Sam to say that he cannot tell Rooney where to play. During the 2014 World Cup, Sterling and Sturridge were the most in form players in the league but spent most of their time filling Rooneys gaps when he went wandering. A similar thing happened with Dele Alli during the Euros.

Are they ever going to accept that Rooneys wandering destabilises the rest of the team? He is not of Ronaldo/Messi standard of where you can just accept it.

It was an astonishing comment from Big Sam, IMO. Saying that he can't stop him from dropping deeper and essentially that Rooney knows best because he has more international experience than him. Quite unbelievable for a manager to say something like that.

I know it's not a great example as 1) it didn't work out for him at all, 2) Beckham had a lot more to offer at that time than Rooney does now and 3) he ended up going back on the decision a few months later, but Steve McClaren made a massive decision when he was appointed to drop David Beckham and move the captaincy on to someone else. It would have been a huge statement of intent for Big Sam to do likewise with Wayne Rooney and as good as Rooney has been over the years, now that he is being accommodated in a midfield position he becomes a hindrance more than a help.

I honestly thought Allardyce would go in there, make some big decisions, set a marker down and really do things his own way. To me it is very surprising, but it basically seems like now that he has got the big job he has always craved, that he's starstruck at the presence of managing a player as decorated as Rooney. Very disappointing.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Pro. F wrote: »

Can you show that I changed my opinion of his play in the first 91 minutes of the game after he got that assist? No you can't. You are talking bollocks.

I replied to this already but it looks like it was deleted for some reason.

Anyway. I wasn't talking about you, if you go back and read the thread again you will see that your name came up after that post when Jayop claimed nobody here said he was good.

So yeah, it's not me talking bollocks.

cowboyBuilder

He's not worth keeping around

I think Mourinho will get the best out of him again, you will see him shine this season and next.
Sorry I'm sure its been mentioned on the thread already, haven't read through it. :P

Not sure how he'll fare on the England team tho ..

Cantona's Collars

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

I think Mourinho will get the best out of him again, you will see him shine this season and next.
Sorry I'm sure its been mentioned on the thread already, haven't read through it. :P

Not sure how he'll fare on the England team tho ..

I'm of the opinion that José will phase him out. He won't tolerate his ever worsening touch and losing the ball constantly. Rooney has played at the top for nigh on 16 years and is showing that wear and tear.He has been moved around in teams to accommodate him and it still doesn't work. He was thrown a lifeline by Moyes after Ferguson ran out of patience with him. LVG continued to pander to him and now Big Sam. José is not so sentimental and once his goals and assists that mask the 99% of general rubbish in his play dry up,he'll be benched.

Pro. F

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

I replied to this already but it looks like it was deleted for some reason.

Anyway. I wasn't talking about you, if you go back and read the thread again you will see that your name came up after that post when Jayop claimed nobody here said he was good.

So yeah, it's not me talking bollocks.

Good of you to clarify that you weren't talking about me in your OP when you mentioned me by name to a fella who said you were making things up in your OP.

Pro. F

zerks wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that José will phase him out. He won't tolerate his ever worsening touch and losing the ball constantly. Rooney has played at the top for nigh on 16 years and is showing that wear and tear.He has been moved around in teams to accommodate him and it still doesn't work. He was thrown a lifeline by Moyes after Ferguson ran out of patience with him. LVG continued to pander to him and now Big Sam. José is not so sentimental and once his goals and assists that mask the 99% of general rubbish in his play dry up,he'll be benched.

I'm pretty sure Jose watches the games properly, so he'll know that this isn't happening.

Cantona's Collars

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Jose watches the games properly, so he'll know that this isn't happening.

So everyone is imagining it?

Pro. F

zerks wrote: »

So everyone is imagining it?

Not everyone. There seems to be a fair number of people who can see that Rooney has not been constantly losing the ball.

Dots1982

A good option from the bench

Can anyone tell me another central midfielder in the world with a Rooney type build; arda turan is all I can think of when he's had a heavy summer. Modern day footballers (especially midfielders) are hugely lean or quite slight (iniesta/silva).

Are there stats visible on Rooney's distance covered for games?

Its not complicated but I just think Rooney carries too much timber.

Pro. F

Dots1982 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me another central midfielder in the world with a Rooney type build; arda turan is all I can think of when he's had a heavy summer. Modern day footballers (especially midfielders) are hugely lean or quite slight (iniesta/silva).

Are there stats visible on Rooney's distance covered for games?

Its not complicated but I just think Rooney carries too much timber.

I can't find distance covered stats (and number and intensity of sprints is a much better measure of work-rate anyway; which is also not readily available), but if you look at the number and location of passes made and received you can see that he is constantly involved in the game when playing #10. He gets through a lot more work than most #10s, so I doubt stamina is a problem.

You can see that stuff on the fourfourtwo statszone.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Pro. F wrote: »

Good of you to clarify that you weren't talking about me in your OP when you mentioned me by name to a fella who said you were making things up in your OP.

My op and Jayop's question are not the same thing. If you can't see that then that's your problem.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Pro. F wrote: »

Not everyone. There seems to be a fair number of people who can see that Rooney has not been constantly losing the ball.

You'll probably get hung up on the word constantly because that's the way your arguments go. He loses the ball too much.

Pro. F

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

You'll probably get hung up on the word constantly because that's the way your arguments go. He loses the ball too much.

No he doesn't. He has an 87% pass success rate this season ffs.

Pro. F

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

My op and Jayop's question are not the same thing. If you can't see that then that's your problem.

But they were part of the same conversation. As I said, good of you to clarify that you weren't talking about me in your OP when you mentioned me to the fella who was arguing with you about your OP.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Pro. F wrote: »

No he doesn't. He has an 87% pass success rate this season ffs.

Passing isn't the only way of losing the ball.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Pro. F wrote: »

But they were part of the same conversation. As I said, good of you to clarify that you weren't talking about me in your OP when you mentioned me to the fella who was arguing with you about your OP.

Don't care anymore.

Pro. F

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Passing isn't the only way of losing the ball.

Indeed it isn't. You can also look at how often he loses the ball without attempting a pass.

According to whoscored, so far this season, Rooney has 1.7 unsuccessful touches per 90 minutes and 2 dispossessions. Once again that doesn't come even remotely close to losing the ball "too much."

Liam McPoyle

Pro. F wrote: »

Indeed it isn't. You can also look at how often he loses the ball without attempting a pass.

According to whoscored, so far this season, Rooney has 1.7 unsuccessful touches per 90 minutes and 2 dispossessions. Once again that doesn't come even remotely close to losing the ball "too much."

While I'm loath to get into a debate on Rooney, I'd love to see the full stats.

For example, an 87% pass success rate, stuff like that can be quite deceptive as it implies that a player played well.

You could have an 87% pass success rate but if you are only making 10 passes over the course of 90 minutes and get 9 of them right, it doesn't mean you played well.

What my untrained eye has taken from Rooney is that over the last few games he has been anonymous for large tranches of the match.

Yes he has had a hand in a couple of goals and all that but for someone that has positioned himself as the main man at the club he, IMO, hasn't been good enough.

I'd love to see him play as a striker, its his natural position. As forward players get older they tend to move towards roles that require less ground to be covered, he is the opposite and is not good enough for that role.

What I'd love to see us lining out like (if Rooney MUST be in the team) is

DDG

Darmian
Bailly
Blind
Shaw

Miki
Pogba
Fellaini
Martial

Rooney
Ibra

Let Rooney play in his best position rather than shoehorning him into a AM role.

The passing stat doesn't tell you if any of those passes were effective in an attacking sense.
Unless there is a clear graph showing how many times Rooney passed the ball to the striker or a winger or if he played a ball into the box either from the wing or via a through-ball or something.
Who gives a ****e if he's been passing it around midfield, he's not a midfielder. #10 apparently.

Pro. F

Saul T Nutzz wrote: »

While I'm loath to get into a debate on Rooney, I'd love to see the full stats.

For example, an 87% pass success rate, stuff like that can be quite deceptive as it implies that a player played well.

You could have an 87% pass success rate but if you are only making 10 passes over the course of 90 minutes and get 9 of them right, it doesn't mean you played well.

What my untrained eye has taken from Rooney is that over the last few games he has been anonymous for large tranches of the match.

Yes he has had a hand in a couple of goals and all that but for someone that has positioned himself as the main man at the club he, IMO, hasn't been good enough.

Just to be clear, I am not using these stats to prove that he has played well, but to prove that Zerks and Flint are wrong when they say he gives the ball away constantly or too much.

You can see all these types of stats at:
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#
https://www.whoscored.com/
and http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone

With regards to your idea that Rooney could be only attempting 10 passes per game, which could make his pass accuracy look better:
According to Squawka, Rooney ranks highest amongst forwards for number of passes so far this season with 39.59 successful passes per 90 minutes. Again, this doesn't prove that he has played well, but it shows that your doubt about the significance of the pass accuracy is wrong and it goes a long way towards proving that your impression that he is anonymous for large stretches of the game is wrong.