Wayne f*cking Rooney

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

crkball6 wrote: »

Exactly most of that video is horse.

The pass out to the right Valencia should have been pushed up there.

Where he controls was a pretty badly weighted pass from Shaw.

Then he gets caught out on the ball from a hospital pass and no one gave him a shout. You could go through almost any 90 minute game of most premier league games from any season and pick it apart like this for any player in a similar role.

No one is blindly defending him, the whole team are below par right now there's very few players who are playing well it's rife throughout the team.

You could take pogba/ibra/valencia/smalling/rooney/rashford/eric/shaw/martial who didn't play well and or made mistakes. Why people are obsessed with bashing rooney is beyond me there's a whole team of players who are not playing up to the required levels and in general you're only as good as the players playing around you and they're pretty much all off form right now.

I do not agree Ibra made as many mistakes and I think he was more dangerous than Rooney. I thought Shaw did okay also. Rashford is a kid. Pogba, its his what 3rd or 4th game for United?

Rooney has had many of these games for a while now... a long long time. This season's performances are straws that are breaking the camels backbones for me.

All the internet, the media, barstool United fans are hyperbole and OTT when the speak of Rooney this way sure ... and all of the few fans that are on the other side of the fence strongly dismissing these claims seem to be holier than though and know more about the game, with there vast knowledge of positions, tactics and how the game really is.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

It's everybody else's fault!!!

crkball6

Nalz wrote: »

I do not agree Ibra made as many mistakes and I think he was more dangerous than Rooney. I thought Shaw did okay also. Rashford is a kid. Pogba, its his what 3rd or 4th game for United?

Ibra wasn't on the ball as much so his opportunities to make mistakes are less, he still wasn't very effective, he missed a sitter. is that worse than been passed a hospital ball and not been given a shout and losing the ball? Does it cost the team more?

Shaw did ok, he's just potentially to blame for losing a goal. Is that as big a mistake as mis-controlling a badly weighted pass in the opponents half?

Rashford is a kid? so should we not play him? or is he good enough to play and then can be critiqued as much as anyone else? or are excuses ok for everyone else, just not for rooney?



pogba is a 100m euro internatnaional superstar but he's excused because he's only played x amount of games? Since rooney has only played X amount of games with ibra/rashford/pogba there's no excuse right?

It's bashing one player for the sake of it and making up excuses for everyone else.

Rubbish.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

crkball6 wrote: »

Rubbish.

Nice sign off

Everyone else "bashing" Rooney is wrong and we're all hyperbole naive over the top simpletons.

Rashford being a kid, not a senior player and being in and out of the team should be on a level playing field with our captain Wayne Rooney when criticising players?

What about Pogba being new to the league, the opposition, having feck all of a pre season and new to all his team mates?

Call it bashing one player all you want, Rooney was shít and has been less than average for 3 seasons now. It is as simple as that.

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

All the internet, the media, barstool United fans are hyperbole and OTT when the speak of Rooney this way sure ...

There are plenty of people who I've seen criticising Rooney in a balanced and reasonable way. Not everybody is going OTT, but plenty are. That is the norm for football discussion.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Pro. F wrote: »

There are plenty of people who I've seen criticising Rooney in a balanced and reasonable way. Not everybody is going OTT, but plenty are. That is the norm for football discussion.

Fair enough I agree there

Duck Soup

Nalz wrote: »

Not true. There's stats, video evidence, comments galore against Rooney.

You mean like this one?

Brian?

A good option from the bench

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Back at Everton next season?

Although not sure Koeman would be all that interested in him but the club might see the value in bringing him back to finish his career there.

No chance. He wouldn't be welcome back, he's past it.

Off to the MLS or China.

I'm not sure what Rooney adds to the Utd team anymore, apart from the possibility he may do something magic. His positional discipline is poor, his passing is far too hit and miss and his set pieces are poor.

It's a shame to see his decline. Maybe a rest would do him good.

Pro. F

Brian? wrote: »

No chance. He wouldn't be welcome back, he's past it.

Off to the MLS or China.

I'm not sure what Rooney adds to the Utd team anymore, apart from the possibility he may do something magic. His positional discipline is poor, his passing is far too hit and miss and his set pieces are poor.

It's a shame to see his decline. Maybe a rest would do him good.

How so?

Brian?

A good option from the bench

Pro. F wrote: »

How so?

Admittedly I'm basing this on a small sample size, the times I've seen Rooney play since May. But he seems to wander through games. When he's playing in midfield he often creates space for the opposition to run into and when his team have the ball he's often too close or too far to receive the ball and get it forward. As a midfielder he doesn't set the tempo of the game, he seems to always be looking to spray a ball out wide and long.

awec

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Back at Everton next season?

Although not sure Koeman would be all that interested in him but the club might see the value in bringing him back to finish his career there.

No way another Premier League club would pay his wages. For most clubs he would obliterate any wage structure they have and the clubs that could afford him wouldn't touch him (and he probably wouldn't go near them anyway).

Whether you think he was good, bad or mediocre I think it goes without saying that he does not justify the 300 grand a week he is taking home and he looks like a player whose 5 years older than he actually is. He doesn't look like captain material either but United are short on options there.

The MLS beckons.

deaddonkey15

He's not worth keeping around

Nalz wrote: »

Nice sign off

Everyone else "bashing" Rooney is wrong and we're all hyperbole naive over the top simpletons.

Rashford being a kid, not a senior player and being in and out of the team should be on a level playing field with our captain Wayne Rooney when criticising players?

Yes, they're both first team players for Manchester United.

Nalz wrote: »

What about Pogba being new to the league, the opposition, having feck all of a pre season and new to all his team mates?

Real petty excuses here considering he cost £89m, is a French international, and has won a number of trophies with Juventus. Hardly a complete stranger to United and England either. Ironic that people are claiming Rooney is the star player and should be acting like it yet ignore all the hype that Pogba helped create through Instagram over the summer before his transfer was finally announced. Pogba is the star player in this team but hasn't played like it at all yet.

Nalz wrote: »

Call it bashing one player all you want, Rooney was shít and has been less than average for 3 seasons now. It is as simple as that.

So who are these average players that Rooney has been inferior to for 3 years?

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Yes, they're both first team players for Manchester United.



Real petty excuses here considering he cost £89m, is a French international, and has won a number of trophies with Juventus. Hardly a complete stranger to United and England either. Ironic that people are claiming Rooney is the star player and should be acting like it yet ignore all the hype that Pogba helped create through Instagram over the summer before his transfer was finally announced. Pogba is the star player in this team but hasn't played like it at all yet.




So who are these average players that Rooney has been inferior to for 3 years?

It's completely idiotic to compare Rashford with Rooney.

Pogba has 4 games under his belt and hasnt had shít performances like Rooney

Rooney was below average by his standards and vs many players both at United and at other clubs. When was it ever acceptable to swallow the muck he produces and has done for the last 3 seasons? When was it acceptable to judge kids and new transfers in the same light as him?

You think Rooney will be as half as good as Pogba or Rashford this season? I've serious doubts but hope I'm wrong.

Billy86

crkball6 wrote: »

A pass where Valencia should have been further up the pitch to collect?.

Is this really what it's coming to? I'm sorry but that's comical.

deaddonkey15

He's not worth keeping around

Nalz wrote: »

It's completely idiotic to compare Rashford with Rooney.

No it isn't, they are both first team players.

Nalz wrote: »

Pogba has 4 games under his belt and hasnt had shít performances like Rooney

5 games,and against mainly poor opposition. He has been poor.

Nalz wrote: »

Rooney was below average by his standards and vs many players both at United and at other clubs. When was it ever acceptable to swallow the muck he produces and has done for the last 3 seasons? When was it acceptable to judge kids and new transfers in the same light as him?

So you can't actually name average players that Rooney has been inferior to for the last 3 years?

Nalz wrote: »

You think Rooney will be as half as good as Pogba or Rashford this season? I've serious doubts but hope I'm wrong.

I thought you said it was idiotic to compare Rooney and Rashford? Nevertheless, Rooney has contributed more goals to the side and created more chances than both of these players put together this season. He also has higher average pass accuracy than both of them, despite the hyperbole written by some people here.

edgecutter

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

No it isn't, they are both first team players.



5 games,and against mainly poor opposition. He has been poor.



So you can't actually name average players that Rooney has been inferior to for the last 3 years?



I thought you said it was idiotic to compare Rooney and Rashford? Nevertheless, Rooney has contributed more goals to the side and created more chances than both of these players put together this season. He also has higher average pass accuracy than both of them, despite the hyperbole written by some people here.

He has been inferior to lots of players, but the problem seems to be that he is entitled to crap form for months while others get dropped for having one poor game.

deaddonkey15

He's not worth keeping around

Billy86 wrote: »

Is this really what it's coming to? I'm sorry but that's comical.

Not really. For anyone that watches United even on a semi-regular basis they would know that Rooney frequently likes to switch the play out wide to Valencia - who's usually in attacking positions - when things get too congested. Obviously, he assumed Valencia was in a further forward position, or at least running forward into that position, (maybe it's something they practiced in training?) than he was but unfortunately, he wasn't. I know that I'd rather Valencia was in the position that Rooney played the ball to as it was more conducive to setting up an attack than where he actually was. In fact, I clearly recall Rooney playing quite a good ball out wide into Valencia's path in the first half so perhaps he was trying to replicate that here. Having said that, Rooney still should have looked up to make sure the pass was on as it looked very poor even though I suspect it was a lapse in situational awareness rather than some brain dead, uncontrolled pass that a lot of people are trying to make it out to be.

deaddonkey15

He's not worth keeping around

edgecutter wrote: »

He has been inferior to lots of players, but the problem seems to be that he is entitled to crap form for months while others get dropped for having one poor game.

Great, name them.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

edgecutter wrote: »

He has been inferior to lots of players, but the problem seems to be that he is entitled to crap form for months while others get dropped for having one poor game.

I can't name any players though can you?

And I don't know the difference between 4 and 5 games.

Oh I can't say that youngsters shouldnt be judged or compared against the captain of a club, especially in terms of the flack they should get when not performing... then turn around and ask who will be more beneficial and significant to the team this season!

deaddonkey15

He's not worth keeping around

Nalz wrote: »

I can't name any players though can you?

You said Rooney was below average for 3 years, so if you're able to rank Rooney in the below average category, there must be other players who, in your opinion, would be in the 'average' category. I'd just like to know who they are and if they have been consistently better than Rooney for 3 years.

Nalz wrote: »

Oh I can't say that youngsters shouldnt be judged or compared against the captain of a club, especially in terms of the flack they should get when not performing... then turn around and ask who will be more beneficial and significant to the team this season!

No because it's not a fair comparison. Anything Rooney does well will be "the bare minimum" or "not good enough" because he's the captain and on big money. Likewise his mistakes are pretty much unforgivable on here.

In contrast, anything Rashford does well will be brilliant and yet another example of his talent and meteoric rise whilst his negatives will be met with "he's still just a kid" etc.

For example, Rashford scores the winner against Hull: Hero! Rooney set's up the winner against Hull: drop him!

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

You said Rooney was below average for 3 years, so if you're able to rank Rooney in the below average category, there must be other players who, in your opinion, would be in the 'average' category. I'd just like to know who they are and if they have been consistently better than Rooney for 3 years.



No because it's not a fair comparison. Anything Rooney does well will be "the bare minimum" or "not good enough" because he's the captain and on big money. Likewise his mistakes are pretty much unforgivable on here.

In contrast, anything Rashford does well will be brilliant and yet another example of his talent and meteoric rise whilst his negatives will be met with "he's still just a kid" etc.

For example, Rashford scores the winner against Hull: Hero! Rooney set's up the winner against Hull: drop him!

I will say one thing, thanks for not flying off the handle when I replied in that fashion. apologies for that. I will also admit that I watch united more so than any other team bars in saying that I still believe that there was a large number of attacking minded players in the premiership over the last two to three seasons who has been way more consistent for their clubs. Yes there is obvious names of superstars of Man City Arsenal Liverpool and even Chelsea and Leicester who would be ahead of Rooney in terms of consistency and value to the team from an creative, attacking or organisational sens.

Who could I name: Ozil, Aguero, De Bryune, even the likes of Giroud, Silva, Vardy & Mahrez. Hazards 3/4 muck season pushes him off the list... Coutinho, even Sturridge. This is going to be an embarrassing long list of well known players. I could go further down the table and pick out others honestly! Would the likes of Tadic, Lukaku, Henderson, Mata & Ayew make it even? Debatable. This is how strongly I feel with Mr inconsistent below par Wayne.

deaddonkey15

He's not worth keeping around

Nalz wrote: »

I will say one thing, thanks for not flying off the handle when I replied in that fashion.

In what fashion?

Nalz wrote: »

Who could I name: Ozil, Aguero, De Bryune, even the likes of Giroud, Silva, Vardy & Mahrez. Hazards 3/4 muck season pushes him off the list... Coutinho, even Sturridge. This is going to be an embarrassing long list of well known players. I could go further down the table and pick out others honestly! Would the likes of Tadic, Lukaku, Henderson, Mata & Ayew make it even? Debatable. This is how strongly I feel with Mr inconsistent below par Wayne.

Most of the players you named are very good/excellent/world class, not average. Most of these players also play in a very cohesive sides under attacking managers, not Moyes and LVG. I'm not sure if Rooney has been inferior to Vardy and Mahrez for 3 years since most people had never heard of Mahrez prior to the start of last season and Vardy wasn't quite the same player the season before last as he is now. Tadic, Henderson, Ayew are the kind of players I would rank as closer to the 'average' category. Has Rooney been inferior to them for 3 years? I don't think so.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Ah by below average I meant his average performance.

Like if I was to rate Rooney in every match id say my average rating for him would work out around 5ish.

And by fashion I meant my childish sarcastic post. Was no need for it.

Anyways I've bigger things to be worrying about with my missus 5 days overdue!!

ben.schlomo

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

In what fashion?



Most of the players you named are very good/excellent/world class, not average. Most of these players also play in a very cohesive sides under attacking managers, not Moyes and LVG. I'm not sure if Rooney has been inferior to Vardy and Mahrez for 3 years since most people had never heard of Mahrez prior to the start of last season and Vardy wasn't quite the same player the season before last as he is now. Tadic, Henderson, Ayew are the kind of players I would rank as closer to the 'average' category. Has Rooney been inferior to them for 3 years? I don't think so.

Yes, yes he has.

Pro. F

Everybody needs to stop with the three years thing. Like, by all means, discuss whether he is good or bad; whether he has been average or not; whether he is muck or not. In Van Gaal's time and in this season. But it is currently 2016. Three years ago it was 2013. In that season (13/14), playing under David freakin' Moyes, Rooney produced this:



Have some cop on before describing his 13/14 season as anything less than very, very good.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Pro. F wrote: »

Everybody needs to stop with the three years thing. Like, by all means, discuss whether he is good or bad; whether he has been average or not; whether he is muck or not. In Van Gaal's time and in this season. But it is currently 2016. Three years ago it was 2013. In that season (13/14), playing under David freakin' Moyes, Rooney produced this:



Have some cop on before describing his 13/14 season as anything less than very, very good.

It's not very very good. It's average to good and poor by his previous standards. In my opinion. Wasn't LVGs seasons quite similar in terms of points to Moyes/giggs year? He almost got us to semis of CL lol.


Night all. Might be a dad tomorrow or the next day so won't sleep a wink but could probably do with it.

Maybe I'll call him Wayne

Billy86

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I thought you said it was idiotic to compare Rooney and Rashford? Nevertheless, Rooney has contributed more goals to the side and created more chances than both of these players put together this season. He also has higher average pass accuracy than both of them, despite the hyperbole written by some people here.

When one players gets shoehorned in come hell or high water and regardless of form, it's obviously going to impact bulk stats. There is absolutely no question as to who has been more efficient in goal production since 18 year old relative unknown Marcus Rashford made his debut, when compared to 300k/wk, 30 year old club captain Wayne Rooney.

2016/17:
Rashford goals per 90 minutes - 1.16
Rooney goals per 90 minutes - 0.2

Rashford assists per 90 minutes - 0
Rooney assists per 90 minutes - 0.4

Rashford goal contribution per 90 minutes - 1.16
Rooney goal contribution per 90 minutes - 0.6

2015/16:
Rashford goals per 90 minutes - 0.53
Rooney goals per 90 minutes - 0.30

Rashford assists per 90 minutes - 0.21
Rooney assists per 90 minutes - 0.22

Rashford goal contribution per 90 minutes - 0.74
Rooney goal contribution per 90 minutes - 0.52

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

It's not very very good. It's average to good and poor by his previous standards. In my opinion.

It is utterly absurd to describe 0.89 non-penalty goals plus assists as average to good. Utterly absurd. You have clearly never given any thought to what good attacking production numbers actually look like.

Last season, non-pen goals plus assists:
Aguero: 0.84
Mahrez: 0.71
Vardy: 0.72
Ozil: 0.74
Griezmann: 0.77
Kane: 0.57

It would be ridiculous to say that the production of those players was just average last season (which is what you must think they were, if 0.89 only counts as average to good for you). I'm using players from last season here, because it will still be fresh in everyones's minds and we all know these players were excellent at scoring and creating.

And as for your claim that it was poor by his previous standards. Please point to the seasons where he made those production numbers look poor.

You see this is exactly what I am saying about people going over the top in their criticism of Rooney. Even from the time when he put up numbers that would put in the shade the very best in the PL (edit: plus Griezmann), you will actually put forward as a serious opinion that those numbers are close to average.

Nalz wrote: »

Wasn't LVGs seasons quite similar in terms of points to Moyes/giggs year? He almost got us to semis of CL lol.

Does this change the fact that Moyes and his tactics was a huge impediment to the attacking players playing for United at that time? Nope, it does not.

Korat

A good option from the bench

Pro. F wrote: »

How so?

Maybe the pitch keeps moving. Can't be anything he's doing wrong.

Reports this morning that he's not going to play Saturday

http://www.football365.com/news/mourinho-to-drop-rooney-for-leicester-test-report

Take it with a strong pinch of salt, just copped its The Rag or I mean The Sun

Leroy42

0.89 non penalty goals plus assists.

Does that mean that in that season Rooney assisted or scored a .90 goals per game. That is amazing. Given how poor we were that season what were the top performers achieving?

What are his stats for this season (albeit for a much shorter sample size).

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Pro. F wrote: »

It is utterly absurd to describe 0.89 non-penalty goals plus assists as average to good. Utterly absurd. You have clearly never given any thought to what good attacking production numbers actually look like.

Last season, non-pen goals plus assists:
Aguero: 0.84
Mahrez: 0.71
Vardy: 0.72
Ozil: 0.74
Griezmann: 0.77
Kane: 0.57

It would be ridiculous to say that the production of those players was just average last season (which is what you must think they were, if 0.89 only counts as average to good for you). I'm using players from last season here, because it will still be fresh in everyones's minds and we all know these players were excellent at scoring and creating.

And as for your claim that it was poor by his previous standards. Please point to the seasons where he made those production numbers look poor.

You see this is exactly what I am saying about people going over the top in their criticism of Rooney. Even from the time when he put up numbers that would put in the shade the very best in the PL (edit: plus Griezmann), you will actually put forward as a serious opinion that those numbers are close to average.



Does this change the fact that Moyes and his tactics was a huge impediment to the attacking players playing for United at that time? Nope, it does not.

You're right. Well done. It is very good. Bordering on team of the year stats. Apologies. I genuienly wasn't on a wind I just misread and was stubborn with my agrument. You know what I mean

I retract the comment regarding his tally being good\average that season. I was wrong. I misread the stats and didn't think. What I mean by his standards are the two (or three not looking it up) he banged in 25 goals in the league playing up top. Maybe that's too simplistic a look as there is more to him than scoring, or at least used to be.

I hope he can do that again this season. I'd put a lot of money on it he wouldn't reach half that and I think the team is better off without him.

My comments regarding Rooneys season under Moyess I take back. People have short memories I suppose. That speaks volumes though as we look for so much from players like Rooney and we're just not getting what we want. Haven't been for what now - 2 years or so?

I was wrong and harsh re 2013/14. It seems so long ago and I recall it being less frustrating than LVGs seasons even though we finished 7th.

I remember defending the guy last season, around that poor spell where he scored vs Everton in Goodison. Just like I defended Nani and Fletcher during they're "get him out of our club" phases. This with Rooney seems like a long phase to me.

Korat

A good option from the bench

Pro. F wrote: »

Everybody needs to stop with the three years thing. Like, by all means, discuss whether he is good or bad; whether he has been average or not; whether he is muck or not. In Van Gaal's time and in this season. But it is currently 2016. Three years ago it was 2013. In that season (13/14), playing under David freakin' Moyes, Rooney produced this:



Have some cop on before describing his 13/14 season as anything less than very, very good.

Once again you're the only one interpretting the stats that way.

Adam Llalana and Steven Gerrard were shortlisted for POTY the bar was so low but Rooney wasn't.

He wasn't even Utd's best player in what was a poor season. Moyes banked on Rooney being the driving force of the team and it cost him his job.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Korat wrote: »

Once again you're the only one interpretting the stats that way.

Adam Llalana and Steven Gerrard were shortlisted for POTY the bar was so low but Rooney wasn't.

He wasn't even Utd's best player in what was a poor season. Moyes banked on Rooney being the driving force of the team and it cost him his job.

I was shocked when I reread those figures but they don't lie. Stats don't tell all the story but you can't deny them either!

Pro. F

Korat wrote: »

Once again you're the only one interpretting the stats that way.

Yeah sure. Everybody else in the world thinks that type of production is average or bad or whatever.

Korat wrote: »

Adam Llalana and Steven Gerrard were shortlisted for POTY the bar was so low but Rooney wasn't.

Lol at using POTY short lists to judge anything.

Korat wrote: »

He wasn't even Utd's best player in what was a poor season. Moyes banked on Rooney being the driving force of the team and it cost him his job.

DDG was United's best player. Rooney was the best outfield player. Moyes lost his job because he was very bad at it. Without Rooney we would have been a whole lot worse that season.

Pro. F

Leroy42 wrote: »

0.89 non penalty goals plus assists.

Does that mean that in that season Rooney assisted or scored a .90 goals per game. That is amazing. Given how poor we were that season what were the top performers achieving?

What are his stats for this season (albeit for a much shorter sample size).

Yeah, it's per 90 minutes.

As far as I can tell the top producers of non-penalty goals plus assists per 90 that season were Aguero (1:35), Suarez (1.3) and Sturridge (1.11).

So far this season Rooney has 0.6.

Leroy42

Pro. F wrote: »

Yeah, it's per 90 minutes.

As far as I can tell the top producers of non-penalty goals plus assists per 90 that season were Aguero (1:35), Suarez (1.3) and Sturridge (1.11).

So far this season Rooney has 0.6.

Cheers.

But it raises a few questions. 0.89 is well below the others (although I agree that the team as a whole was cack so .89 seems very impressive).

But .6 is shockingly bad given the level before. The team is better placed now than it was then and yet Rooney is going backwards.

Now, it is only 5 games, but again, Rooney is captain and top player and should be driving the team on. Under Moyes it was Moyes fault, then it was LVG fault, and now it seems to be the other players fault.

Why make a player the captain and top earner is he can only deliver if the others are all on top form?

Pro. F

Leroy42 wrote: »

Cheers.

But it raises a few questions. 0.89 is well below the others (although I agree that the team as a whole was cack so .89 seems very impressive).

That production in 13/14 would have been very impressive even if the team were all performing well and at the top of the league. You aren't realising how good 0.89 is. Well below three players who were phenomenal in terms of production that season is still very, very good. If 0.89 was the highest a team had a player hitting for the next 10 years, that would not preclude them from being dominant in the PL.

Leroy42 wrote: »

But .6 is shockingly bad given the level before. The team is better placed now than it was then and yet Rooney is going backwards.

Now, it is only 5 games, but again, Rooney is captain and top player and should be driving the team on. Under Moyes it was Moyes fault, then it was LVG fault, and now it seems to be the other players fault.

Why make a player the captain and top earner is he can only deliver if the others are all on top form?

Rooney's 0.6 non-penalty goals plus assists so far this season is the exact same as Ibra's and better than Aguero's (0.35). Rooney is one of the top players in this team and, so far this season, he has been producing accordinigly. To use words like "shockingly bad" when talking about that level of production is hyperbole, pure and simple.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

We want more from Rooney and people think the team right will improve without him starting due to his recent performances.

crkball6

Nalz wrote: »

We want more from Rooney

We want more from everyone around him.

Leroy42

Pro. F wrote: »

That production in 13/14 would have been very impressive even if the team were all performing well and at the top of the league. You aren't realising how good 0.89 is. Well below three players who were phenomenal in terms of production that season is still very, very good. If 0.89 was the highest a team had a player hitting for the next 10 years, that would not preclude them from being dominant in the PL.

I said it was very impressive. What more do you want me to say about it!

Pro. F wrote: »

Rooney's 0.6 non-penalty goals plus assists so far this season is the exact same as Ibra's and better than Aguero's (0.35). Rooney is one of the top players in this team and, so far this season, he has been producing accordinigly. To use words like "shockingly bad" when talking about that level of production is hyperbole, pure and simple.

I said 'shockingly bad given his level before'. Please don't use partial quotes just to make your case.

Based on the stats you posted, he had 0.89 in a terrible team. He is now at 0.60. Is that progress, because to me it isn't. You can blame all the factors you like, you can drag other players into it you like, but the stats show Rooney has declined.

We can all accept that that Moyes team was not at the level we should be at, yet one of the top players in that team is now playing worse and you seem to think that is ok.

Ibra is a 34 YO at the end of his career. He has been brought in more to be a PR machine and guide the younger players than anything else. He is not on the team for assists. His job is to get goals. And he has scored 5 already. Can cannot possibly compare his impact on the team to Rooneys.

Pro. F

Leroy42 wrote: »

I said it was very impressive. What more do you want me to say about it!

No, you said that as the team as a whole was cack it was impressive. As I said, it would have been very impressive even if the team as a whole had been playing well. That is obviously quite different from what you said.

Leroy42 wrote: »

I said 'shockingly bad given his level before'. Please don't use partial quotes just to make your case.

And I said: "To use words like "shockingly bad" when talking about that level of production is hyperbole, pure and simple."

The fact that this production number is far down on one that he recorded previously is not a problem in itself. The fact is, you choose to use words like "shockingly bad" when talking about the production numbers when those words aren't necessary. You are trying to portray the situation of the production numbers as worse than it is.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Based on the stats you posted, he had 0.89 in a terrible team. He is now at 0.60. Is that progress, because to me it isn't. You can blame all the factors you like, you can drag other players into it you like, but the stats show Rooney has declined.

Since when does every player have to be progressing every year? This is an arbitrary thing that you have decided is important, when in fact it is not important.

Leroy42 wrote: »

We can all accept that that Moyes team was not at the level we should be at, yet one of the top players in that team is now playing worse and you seem to think that is ok.

I think if you were to have three players with 0.6 non-penalty goals plus assists in a team over the course of the season that can be good enough to win the league, yes.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Ibra is a 34 YO at the end of his career. He has been brought in more to be a PR machine and guide the younger players than anything else. He is not on the team for assists. His job is to get goals. And he has scored 5 already. Can cannot possibly compare his impact on the team to Rooneys.

Lol, if that (everything other than the bolded) is the way the team is being run then we will be finishing mid-table for the duration. Obviously that is just something you have made up. In reality the players are being brought in in order to help the team win football matches and being selected by the manager based on same.

Re bold: Ibra's job is mostly to get goals, with a bit of hold up and creativity too. Rooney's job is a mixture of goal scoring, creativity, defensive and possession work. In the aspects of their jobs measurable by goal production they have both been producing at the same level. Funny how you were happy to talk about non-penalty goals and assists when originally looking at the numbers, but now you realise that Rooney has been producing at the same rate as Ibra you want to include penalties, and assists don't matter anymore.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

crkball6 wrote: »

We want more from everyone around him.

So when the new players and youngsters and the some other players who are already playing better and contributing more than him (queue the go on name them request) produce then we can criticize and hyperbole bash the top paid, playmaking, english captain and superhero that is Mr Rooney

Gotcha


Name them? Mata, Blind, Fellaini, Ibrahimovic, Rashford, Shaw, Valencia
Nearly as bad or worse than him including newbies: Martial, Porgba, Mikitaryian (spelling) Bailly

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

So when the new players and youngsters and the some other players who are already playing better and contributing more than him (queue the go on name them request) produce then we can criticize and hyperbole bash the top paid, playmaking, english captain and superhero that is Mr Rooney

Gotcha


Name them? Mata, Blind, Fellaini, Ibrahimovic, Rashford, Shaw, Valencia
Nearly as bad or worse than him including newbies: Martial, Porgba, Mikitaryian (spelling) Bailly

Mata has not been playing as well as Rooney. Ibra has been playing at the same level as Rooney, not better. Fellaini has been at the same level, although it is fairly different position so getting hard to compare. There's not much point comparing the defenders, the jobs are just too different. You are being overly harsh on Pogba, he has been amongst the better performers (along with Ibra, Rooney, Fellaini and Rashford) in the front six.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Pro. F wrote: »

Mata has not been playing as well as Rooney. Ibra has been playing at the same level as Rooney, not better. Fellaini has been at the same level, although it is fairly different position so getting hard to compare. There's not much point comparing the defenders, the jobs are just too different. You are being overly harsh on Pogba, he has been amongst the better performers (along with Ibra, Rooney, Fellaini and Rashford) in the front six.

Most United fans would say Fellaini has been or best player bar the last 15 minutes vs Watford. Is it fair to deduce from your post above that you think Rooney is worthy of similar or very very close to it? I find that hard to see.

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

Most United fans would say Fellaini has been or best player bar the last 15 minutes vs Watford. Is it fair to deduce from your post above that you think Rooney is worthy of similar or very very close to it? I find that hard to see.

There hasn't been one outstanding best player in the squad. There almost never is. As I said, Fellaini's position is quite different from the others in this discussion, so it's hard to compare.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Pro. F wrote: »

There hasn't been one outstanding best player in the squad. There almost never is. As I said, Fellaini's position is quite different from the others in this discussion, so it's hard to compare.

True re the comparison. I'll ask a different way. People think Fellaini has improved this season and has offered more than he usually delivers... by doing so being very beneficial and somewhat vital to the team.

Can any of the above be said for Wayne in your eyes?

crkball6

Nalz wrote: »

So when the new players and youngsters and the some other players who are already playing better and contributing more than him (queue the go on name them request) produce then we can criticize and hyperbole bash the top paid, playmaking, english captain and superhero that is Mr Rooney

Gotcha


Name them? Mata, Blind, Fellaini, Ibrahimovic, Rashford, Shaw, Valencia
Nearly as bad or worse than him including newbies: Martial, Porgba, Mikitaryian (spelling) Bailly

Pretty much every argument/critique you've come up with so far has been dispelled where you're pretty much one big apology at this point.

Everyone in the team _including_ Rooney need to increase their performances.

As has all ready been pointed out. Mata has not contributed more.

It's hard to compare Blind, but he was one of the causes of the defeat to city. Again, mistake leads to a goal. A Rooney mistake tends to lead to a throw in . Shaw has made match losing mistakes.

Valencia was terrible against city etc. As mentioned it's hard to do like for like comparisons.

You seem to be under the illusion people are blindly defending Rooney. It's not true but people are blindly critiquing him on their "feeling" rather than any hard facts.

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

True re the comparison. I'll ask a different way. People think Fellaini has improved this season and has offered more than he usually delivers... by doing so being very beneficial and somewhat vital to the team.

Can any of the above be said for Wayne in your eyes?

People are wrong to think Fellain has improved. He was always good and they way a lot of people went on about him before was misguided. I also don't agree that Fellaini has been any more vital to the team than Ibra, Rooney, Pogba or Rashford have been. Overall, it hasn't been working well enough so something needs to change. It could just be down to the team needing more time or coaching in order to gel better. Or it could be down to a tweek of the line up being needed - if so, none of those players, including Fellaini, have been too vital to be dropped.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

crkball6 wrote: »

Pretty much every argument/critique you've come up with so far has been dispelled where you're pretty much one big apology at this point.

Everyone in the team _including_ Rooney need to increase their performances.

As has all ready been pointed out. Mata has not contributed more.

It's hard to compare Blind, but he was one of the causes of the defeat to city. Again, mistake leads to a goal. A Rooney mistake tends to lead to a throw in . Shaw has made match losing mistakes.

Valencia was terrible against city etc. As mentioned it's hard to do like for like comparisons.

You seem to be under the illusion people are blindly defending Rooney. It's not true but people are blindly critiquing him on their "feeling" rather than any hard facts.

I disagree that Mata has not done more than Rooney. I think he has performed better yet he hasn't set the world alight.

Valencia was poor vs City I agree. Rooney has been poor in all but one game in my opinion.

I'm under no illusion regarding how people are defending Rooney. I think enough evidence has been shown in this thread and others to counter that.

Frustration and Rooney being an easy target may blow the bashing out of porportion *slightly* (as the man was once almost world class) but the fact remains most United fans would like to see him on the sidelines for a while based on what they've seen recently. There's no denying that. You can call them names all you want like fickle, naive, barstoolers, incapable of reading the game, jumping the gun, idiotic, absurd, hyperbole tinternet simpletons... take your pick.

To imrpove the team Rooney needs to be dropped. I stand by that. I'm sure others do too.