Wayne f*cking Rooney

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

...but the fact remains most United fans would like to see him on the sidelines for a while based on what they've seen recently. There's no denying that.

You hold that up as if anybody should care.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Pro. F wrote: »

You hold that up as if anybody should care.

I hold that up from what I hear in the real world, the media and what I read off people on here.

You don't care what the masses think? Good for you!

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

I hold that up from what I hear in the real world, the media and what I read off people on here.

Why are you telling me where you are getting the impression that most United fans want Rooney dropped from? I didn't doubt how you are forming that idea, I doubted why anyone should care about it.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Pro. F wrote: »

Why are you telling me where you are getting the impression that most United fans want Rooney dropped from? I didn't doubt how you are forming that idea, I doubted why anyone should care about it.

Right. I don't know where else this debate can go and I didn't see the harm in mentioning that most people think he's been poor. Usually the general consensious is right and I haven't seen enough to think otherwise.

Re your point about me being harsh on Pogba, I would agree with you actually. I had him in the slightly better group than Rooney... that's probably a little harsh. I just put him there to avoid the chat getting derailed into about him, as others have come on here saying he's been muck.

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

Right. I don't know where else this debate can go and I didn't see the harm in mentioning that most people think he's been poor. Usually the general consensious is right and I haven't seen enough to think otherwise.

In relation to football, I doubt your claim that the general consensus is usually right.

clubberlang12

Stat's are like any other form of information......they can be viewed as to how the reader wishes to view them. For instance, the video of Rooney over hitting a 20 yard pass out to Valencia on the wing had someone here saying that Valencia should have been further up the field to receive the pass. The fact is, it was a terrible pass. Nothing more, nothing less. Forget stats, and just watch Rooney play. I don't think anyone can argue the fact he has regressed as a player.To the point, in my opinion, where he isn't deserving of being an automatic starter at this point in time. The fact he is being shunted around the pitch to me reads like they don't know where he is best deployed now. While this may next point may get shot down completely, i do feel he lacks the football intelligence to play in certain positions and that is contributing to his displays. Rooney has always been a player who performed better when playing off the cuff, when things come naturally to him. Rooney tracking back deep, and helping out the team while looks great to a lot of viewers is actually poor football intelligence from a positional point of view and shows his personal need to be involved ahead of the need of his team. He has looked lethargic of late and i've always questioned how a modern day top athlete manages to come into pre-season so unfit and over weight like we have seen Wayne in the past. The instance of him stumbling over the ball when trying to control it before going out of play against Watford resembled a person who's legs had just given up.

crkball6

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Stat's are like any other form of information......they can be viewed as to how the reader wishes to view them. For instance, the video of Rooney over hitting a 20 yard pass out to Valencia on the wing had someone here saying that Valencia should have been further up the field to receive the pass. The fact is, it was a terrible pass. Nothing more, nothing less.

At least stats are facts, 20 yrds?

Look at the video again. In fact rashford could have also held but he probably also assumed Valencia was actually putting in some effort to move.

You're proving exactly why stats are good because your pulling things out of the air and just showing your complete lack of understanding what's happening.

When you play football at that level a huge amount of what you do is muscle memory. That exact move probably happens hundreds of time a month in training and Valencia would be further up the pitch.

Your right stats can be used to prove anything, so why don't you use them to prove something.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

lol lolz internet

Iused2likebusts

Rooney has been in decline since 2011/2012 despite decent stats in 2013/2014 I didn't think he was great. As a rival fan Rooney was always a player you would fear when he came up against your team. Its a few years since I've thought like that. He is still producing goals and assists for club and country as he has had a security of starts that a lot of his rivals for those positions haven't had. Up till now it seems his status in teams has been built on the Rooney of 4 years ago. I suspect mourinho has now given him enough rope that he will be totally justified in dropping him. Its disappointing for him as he still gives it his all he just isn't at the same level anymore.

Pro. F

Brian? wrote: »

Admittedly I'm basing this on a small sample size, the times I've seen Rooney play since May. But he seems to wander through games. When he's playing in midfield he often creates space for the opposition to run into and when his team have the ball he's often too close or too far to receive the ball and get it forward.

To be honest, this sounds like you are basing this on his last game for England. His off the ball movement has been spot on in the #10 role under Mourinho. When Ibra was dropping deeper at times in the first few games Rooney ran past him to fill the need in the box. Since Ibra has started to stay higher up Rooney has stayed behind him more. He does work deeper, as is normal for good #10s, but he also receives the ball plenty accross the width of the final third.

Brian? wrote: »

As a midfielder he doesn't set the tempo of the game, he seems to always be looking to spray a ball out wide and long.

It's the CM's job to set the tempo, not the #10s. And he does actually play a lot of short passes too anyway.

clubberlang12

crkball6 wrote: »

At least stats are facts, 20 yrds?

Look at the video again. In fact rashford could have also held but he probably also assumed Valencia was actually putting in some effort to move.

You're proving exactly why stats are good because your pulling things out of the air and just showing your complete lack of understanding what's happening.

When you play football at that level a huge amount of what you do is muscle memory. That exact move probably happens hundreds of time a month in training and Valencia would be further up the pitch.

Your right stats can be used to prove anything, so why don't you use them to prove something.

I'm not going to get out a measuring tape to be pedantic but i would assume from watching the video Valencia is roughly 20 yards away from him. How far do you think he is?

Sure if players are to play from muscle memory why don't they all just wear blind folds? If Valencia had been further up the line and the ball was played behind him would it have been Valencia's fault for being too far advanced. Come on, listen to what you are actually saying here to defend it!!! Rooney played an over cooked, poor pass. What else was it?

My understanding of football is just fine. Football is a natural game most of the time. Your reason that Valencia is to blame for not being in the position the ball was played into is what is flawed here.

crkball6

clubberlang12 wrote: »

I'm not going to get out a measuring tape to be pedantic but i would assume from watching the video Valencia is roughly 20 yards away from him. How far do you think he is?

Sure if players are to play from muscle memory why don't they all just wear blind folds? If Valencia had been further up the line and the ball was played behind him would it have been Valencia's fault for being too far advanced. Come on, listen to what you are actually saying here to defend it!!! Rooney played an over cooked, poor pass. What else was it?

My understanding of football is just fine. Football is a natural game mos the time. You're reason that Valencia is to blame for not being in the position the ball was played into is what is flawed here.

Have you watched Ronaldo play blind folded? he's pretty good

If you watch the video he takes the ball in quickest of glances and it's gone he doesn't have a good look until the ball is all ready on the way.

What was in the corner of his eye? a black man in a red shirt?



If rashford holds here he can collect that ball, he doesn't the only reason he doesn't is he's assuming Valencia is on the move, which he's not.

Valencia should have been on his toes.

It's amazing how you don't want to hear stats and have no interest in being pedantic. That's because you just want to hyperbole about how awful Rooney is and have no interest in anything that doesn't agree with that.

As I said you can take any match any time in the prem and focus on a number of mistakes. Rooney is on the ball in one of the most difficult positions of the pitch to play in.

Potential Underachiever

As a Liverpool fan, when I read this morning that some papers are running with Rooney being dropped for the weekend my heart sank a little bit, I want Utd to keep playing him, he's a shell of the player he once was, his lifestyle and long career are taking it's toll on him.

Banging on about stats is papering over the cracks, as others have said just look at the game and form an opinion, he barely looks capable of controlling a ball, he's slow, cumbersome and seems to be always just dawdling on the ball. you would think he has forgotten how to play, he has been beyond useless for a good while now.

Dropping him won't be an instant fix for Utd there are other issues there too Fellaini being one but it would be a starting point and it might actually do Rooney some good to know he's not guaranteed his place a kick up the hole is badly needed.

clubberlang12

crkball6 wrote: »

Have you watched Ronaldo play blind folded? he's pretty good

If you watch the video he takes the ball in quickest of glances and it's gone he doesn't have a good look until the ball is all ready on the way.

What was in the corner of his eye? a black man in a red shirt?



If rashford holds here he can collect that ball, he doesn't the only reason he doesn't is he's assuming Valencia is on the move, which he's not.

Valencia should have been on his toes.

It's amazing how you don't want to hear stats and have no interest in being pedantic. That's because you just want to hyperbole about how awful Rooney is and have no interest in anything that doesn't agree with that.

As I said you can take any match any time in the prem and focus on a number of mistakes. Rooney is on the ball in one of the most difficult positions of the pitch to play in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJXmRlxe2JI

I'm not sure how to embed video's, so there's the link. Rooney receives the ball back from Ibra and takes 2 touches before releasing it out to Valencia. He is been jockeyed by the Watford player, nothing more. The Watford player doesn't actually touch Rooney until after he has released the ball. He is under very little pressure that a player of his calibre will be able to handle.

Rashford has no need to assume Valencia is further up the line. He is more likely to assume Valencia will receive the ball in the first place. Just the same as Valencia is entitled to be exactly where he is there. He is advanced past the half way line with Rashford in the area ahead of him. He is free in space to receive the ball. Should he receive it, the player in between Rooney and Rashford or the player marking Rashford have to decide who goes to Valencia. The fact Rooney doesn't look up to take in his surroundings his his fault, no one else's.

Yes this does happen numerous time each match day. But what we are debating is the defence of Rooney in playing this poor ball. If Messi or anyone else had played it, it would be one and the same thing..........a poor pass.

Billy86

crkball6 wrote: »

If rashford holds here he can collect that ball,

What, when it magically teleporting through the Watford player directly between him and Rooney?

limnam

clubberlang12 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJXmRlxe2JI

I'm not sure how to embed video's, so there's the link. Rooney receives the ball back from Ibra and takes 2 touches before releasing it out to Valencia. He is been jockeyed by the Watford player, nothing more. The Watford player doesn't actually touch Rooney until after he has released the ball. He is under very little pressure that a player of his calibre will be able to handle.

No one mentioned he was under preasure, the point is if you watch the video, he never really looks there's a glance and the ball is played the ball moves he then lifts his head.

Valencia needs to be moving and anticipating where he's going to put the ball. His lack of urgency and anticipating makes it look like bad when it's not.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Rashford has no need to assume Valencia is further up the line. He is more likely to assume Valencia will receive the ball in the first place. Just the same as Valencia is entitled to be exactly where he is there. He is advanced past the half way line with Rashford in the area ahead of him. He is free in space to receive the ball. Should he receive it, the player in between Rooney and Rashford or the player marking Rashford have to decide who goes to Valencia. The fact Rooney doesn't look up to take in his surroundings his his fault, no one else's.

Look at rashford he's bemused why valenicia wasn't pushed up when he turns around.

Rooney doesn't need to look, Valencia should be on the move and it's his lack luster approach and many other players lack luster approach that has the passing and movement at snails pace. People complain rooney slows the game down this is exactly what he should be doing to quickening it up but valencia was asleep.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Yes this does happen numerous time each match day. But what we are debating is the defence of Rooney in playing this poor ball. If Messi or anyone else had played it, it would be one and the same thing..........a poor pass.

If it was messi we wouldn't be watching videos of a pass. If it was any number 10 in the world we wouldn't be watching videos of a pass. The fact it's Rooney people are looking for and trying to find anything to lambaste the player.

clubberlang12

You are assuming Rushford thinks Valencia is further up. He could easily be thinking how hasn't Rooney found Valencia. Again Valencia is completely entitled to be where he is. He is in space and free from opposition with Rushford occupying the space ahead of him. United are building play here not on the counter attack. His position is totally fine. Rooney lack of awareness of the situation is his own complacency, nothing more.

I'm actually astonished that football watching folks here are going to such lengths to defend Rooney's pass here. It's almost like people are blinded by a devoted loyalty to him and will absolve him of any blame in any situation.

He misplaced the pass. It happens all the time but it's people's defence of it here that is really remarkable.....not the poor pass itself.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

limnam wrote: »

No one mentioned he was under preasure, the point is if you watch the video, he never really looks there's a glance and the ball is played the ball moves he then lifts his head.

Valencia needs to be moving and anticipating where he's going to put the ball. His lack of urgency and anticipating makes it look like bad when it's not.




Look at rashford he's bemused why valenicia wasn't pushed up when he turns around.

Rooney doesn't need to look, Valencia should be on the move and it's his lack luster approach and many other players lack luster approach that has the passing and movement at snails pace. People complain rooney slows the game down this is exactly what he should be doing to quickening it up but valencia was asleep.



If it was messi we wouldn't be watching videos of a pass. If it was any number 10 in the world we wouldn't be watching videos of a pass. The fact it's Rooney people are looking for and trying to find anything to lambaste the player.

This is rubbish. He's the one supplying a constant source of these type of videos so it's not exactly hard to find them.
If Pogba doesn't improve there'll be videos of him flying around but even on an off day Pogba won't be anywhere near as technically poor as Rooney has been lately.

Same goes for any high profile player. He's being paid astronomical wages and playing like a chump. People have every right to complain and question his seemingly untouchable position at the club.

Nalz

He's not worth keeping around

Rubbish vs Absurd vs Hyperbole vs Ridiculous.

Who's winning?

bucketybuck

My favourite 2014 Wayne Rooney stat was the one where as number 10 he would only have one pass to Robin Van Persie all game.

Pro. F

bucketybuck wrote: »

My favourite 2014 Wayne Rooney stat was the one where as number 10 he would only have one pass to Robin Van Persie all game.

Yeah, awful stuff that. Never mind all the goals and assists, sure who needs them. In some games he didn't pass to Van Persie enough.

Flint Fredstone

A good option from the bench

Tonight was just a continuation of his Watford performance. Not good enough and I expect he will be "rested" on Saturday.
Surprised to see him play tonight at all.

Billy86

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Tonight was just a continuation of his Watford performance. Not good enough and I expect he will be "rested" on Saturday.
Surprised to see him play tonight at all.

He'll play Saturday. And if he plays as poorly he'll play the next game. And the next game. It's got to do with more than just football, sadly.

Richard Hillman

A good option from the bench

Don't forget how big a fan Mourinho is of Rooney. He tried to sign him many times for Chelsea and probably Madrid

jive

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Don't forget how big a fan Mourinho is of Rooney. He tried to sign him many times for Chelsea and probably Madrid

Yeah, he was a fan years ago when Rooney was good. I doubt he will entertain these kinds of performances for much longer. He's dumped popular players out of clubs in the past.

Pro. F

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Tonight was just a continuation of his Watford performance. Not good enough and I expect he will be "rested" on Saturday.
Surprised to see him play tonight at all.

No it wasn't. He was poor in the second half against Watford, he was decent tonight.

Billy86

Korat

A good option from the bench

I didn't see the game but I found this compilation of his contribution.

https://youtu.be/zOrfczJWdOY?t=7s

He's really good at those backwards passes, the sideways passes could be better though especially against quality opposition like Northampton Town.

I liked the clever free kick where he kicked it into the wall to set up a goal. Straight off the training ground.

jive

jive wrote: »

Yeah, he was a fan years ago when Rooney was good. I doubt he will entertain these kinds of performances for much longer. He's dumped popular players out of clubs in the past.

Looks like the special one had enough. Rashford and Lingards chance to nail a spot today, don't think Rooney will be left out for too long unless the others start firing.

deaddonkey15

He's not worth keeping around

jive wrote: »

Looks like the special one had enough. Rashford and Lingards chance to nail a spot today, don't think Rooney will be left out for too long unless the others start firing.

I was pleased to see him dropped but then displeased when I saw Lingard back in the line up. Kind of defeats the purpose really.

Potential Underachiever

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I was pleased to see him dropped but then displeased when I saw Lingard back in the line up. Kind of defeats the purpose really.

Insert Karl Pilkington gif!

Honestly, I find it very hard to believe.

deaddonkey15

He's not worth keeping around

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

Honestly, I find it very hard to believe.

I couldn't care less.

deaddonkey15

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I was pleased to see him dropped but then displeased when I saw Lingard back in the line up. Kind of defeats the purpose really.

Cypher_sounds

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I was pleased to see him dropped but then displeased when I saw Lingard back in the line up. Kind of defeats the purpose really.

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

Insert Karl Pilkington gif!

Honestly, I find it very hard to believe.

Billy86

How did we do today without him? Was preoccupied and missed up to the 71st minute, but the scoreline suggests not so bad.

Have it recorded so I'll try give it a watch later on.

Lord TSC

Billy86 wrote: »

How did we do today without him? Was preoccupied and missed up to the 71st minute, but the scoreline suggests not so bad.

Have it recorded so I'll try give it a watch later on.

Shakey opening twenty minutes, destroyed them over 25 minutes and then neither team seemed bothered to play the second half. Three goals from Blind corners is the most obvious impact of Rooney not being on the field, since he would usually be on corner duty.

Watch minutes 20-45 on tape for some great football, and then just google Gray's goal, rather than suffer the second half.

Iused2likebusts

big sam has a decision to make now aswell.

A good option from the bench

Surely he can't go back into the team now after that?

eagle eye

Beckett Bitter Block wrote: »

Surely he can't go back into the team now after that?

He shouldn't but there is always the possibility that United are playing poorly in a game and he comes on, plays well and they win and then he has earned the right to be in contention for a start in the next game.

Lord TSC

Beckett Bitter Block wrote: »

Surely he can't go back into the team now after that?

He will play midweek in the EL, but in the league, it really should be as close to that team as possible again.

Pro. F

Lord TSC wrote: »

He will play midweek in the EL, but in the league, it really should be as close to that team as possible again.

It's very hasty to be thinking Mata should be first choice number 10.

RobbingBandit

A good option from the bench

I would rotate him and Ibra as lead strikers no more drifting trying to be the everyman of the team stick to being one of the lead forwards of the team, get back to what he used to do best scoring goals.

Lord TSC

Lord TSC wrote: »

He will play midweek in the EL, but in the league, it really should be as close to that team as possible again.

I'd hope miki gets his chance

There's going to be a battle between mata and miki

Iused2likebusts

Beckett Bitter Block wrote: »

Surely he can't go back into the team now after that?

Herrera playing instead of fellani also made a big difference from an attacking perspective.

Kirby

Pro. F wrote: »

It's very hasty to be thinking Mata should be first choice number 10.

When you play well and win, you keep doing what you did to bring about that result. So yes, Mata at 10 again is the most logical course of action.....seeing as he played quite well and United won....and he has never been a winger and 10 is his natural position......I mean if you just follow the thought process through to its logical conclusion.

You would be a fool to go tinker with that team. Keep picking it until it stops working. Sure Ranieri picked the same 11 every week and it won them the title....and he was known as the tinker man.

Billy86

I'd have to agree - wouldn't make sense to start anyone but Mata at 10 against Stoke next week. If he plays poor, the Mkhi or Rooney may be able to force their way in for the next week and so on.

Billy86

A good option from the bench

Billy86 wrote: »

I'd have to agree - wouldn't make sense to start anyone but Mata at 10 against Stoke next week. If he plays poor, the Mkhi or Rooney may be able to force their way in for the next week and so on.

What I know anyway is that bringing Rooney back in makes absolutely no sense at all.

clubberlang12

Didn't get to see much of the match yesterday, perhaps the last 5 mins of the first half and the last 20 of the second. One thing i noticed when Rooney came on for Rashford, and i may be open to correction, was that he seemed to come in off the wide area and try and get the ball centrally and a bit deeper. From the bits i seen of the game of Rashford was that he tended to stay pretty wide and spread the game for us. Now maybe Wayne was told yesterday to get involved and play tighter, i don't know. But as i eluded to in my post the other day is that Rooney is too anxious to be involved everywhere and finds it hard to play to the tactical and positional side of the position he is playing in. Again, i am not privy to Mourinho's instructions or even the parts of Rashfords play i didn't see, and am completely open to correction.

Pro. F

Kirby wrote: »

When you play well and win, you keep doing what you did to bring about that result. So yes, Mata at 10 again is the most logical course of action.....seeing as he played quite well and United won....and he has never been a winger and 10 is his natural position......I mean if you just follow the thought process through to its logical conclusion.

You would be a fool to go tinker with that team. Keep picking it until it stops working. Sure Ranieri picked the same 11 every week and it won them the title....and he was known as the tinker man.

I was talking about what we should expect over the next few games, about finding the best 11. Mata played well, so starting him next time makes sense, but whether he will work out as first choice in the role is still far from certain.

Leroy42

I'm glad Jose benched Rooney, it was the obvious call to make.

Great that MU played well yesterday, but it was only one game. All those players who played yesterday have had stinkers as well at other times.

What yesterday signal to me is that Jose is not worried about making the right calls, he will make whatever decision he feels is in the best interests of the team. If that means bringing Rooney back for the next EPL then that is fine with me as I assume he has seen enough in training to warrant it.