Eflow fines - Sheriff took car.

Sleeper12

I contacted my solicitor and he said, the solicitors these guys are using are notorious; the obligation is on me as the car owner obviously to know the toll was used, which is fair enough, but also to know all the consequences of not paying.....which I didn't know and wouldn't expect people to know.

Ignorance of the law is not a legal defense. "Gosh I didn't know if I was caught with the drugs I'd get 10 years". It's up to us to find out.

I do feel for this girl cos it's a lot of money to anyone but if they were soft on her it wouldn't even be here on boards & none of us would pay Eflow.

wonski

Some people when they know they owe money do not engage with creditors until it is to late. They won't answer the phone and bin the letters.

I learned myself that answering that phone call or responding to the letter can be not only rewarding, but also let all the stress out.

Had two repayments plans arranged back in the day and the relief of them not chasing me any more was unreal.

Getting to the stage of Sheriffs knocking on your door means op's friend didn't engage at all to get this sorted.

Bandana boy

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Something similar to this happened to me where my wife had used my car to use the toll bridge; between the jigs and the reels she never told me about it and it was forgotten.

The problem was that the reminder letters were going to my neighbours house not mine.

The neighbour shows up one day with around 6 letters, the last of which is I think a fine or a court appearance. Total fine was around €450 I think.

My initial reaction was, this is nonsense there is no way they can enforce this, they were sending it to the wrong address.

I contacted my solicitor and he said, the solicitors these guys are using are notorious; the obligation is on me as the car owner obviously to know the toll was used, which is fair enough, but also to know all the consequences of not paying.....which I didn't know and wouldn't expect people to know.

My strong view is that the fines are a money making racket, and go far far beyond the cost of enforecement, and go far far beyond the 'crime' committed; and I can understand why someone who (I) doesn't have the finances to pay a really large fine and (ii) doesn't have the wherewithal to negotiate through the legal system, and doesn't have their own solicitor, could be really intimidated by this and get into this mess.

My final point - it is very much poor people who will get caught out by this. People who cant afford a large fine, people who cant afford legal advice.

the fine is well worth having that over your missus for the rest of your life ;)

ThisRegard

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My final point - it is very much poor people who will get caught out by this.

Not really. If you take a look at the report on the last lot of cars seized for non payment of the toll you'll see a lot were pretty decent cars.

edit: Here it is,
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cars-seized-from-drivers-owing-average-28-600-in-m50-tolls-1.2717290
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/almost-60-cars-seized-last-year-after-drivers-failed-to-pay-m50-tolls-34874593.html

Average car value is reported as €28,600, report gives the type and age of cars seized, and the judgement outstanding on their owners.

jimmycrackcorm

Tombo2001 wrote:

My strong view is that the fines are a money making racket, and go far far beyond the cost of enforecement, and go far far beyond the 'crime' committed; and I can understand why someone who (I) doesn't have the finances to pay a really large fine and (ii) doesn't have the wherewithal to negotiate through the legal system, and doesn't have their own solicitor, could be really intimidated by this and get into this mess.

My strong view is that they are necessary because it's not about one person but about thousands of people not paying.

Given the simple option of using a video account, there really no excuse for letting it get to the stage where fines are involved.

kirving

kbannon wrote: »

So what?
It's a fine, a deterrent. If you disagree with the manner by which the fine's value escalates, then don't accrue it!

I do think that €6000, which would easily feed someone for a year in Ireland, has gone far past the point of being a deterrent, or a reasonable compensation for the company who have had to spend their time persuing it.

I give eflow quite a bit of money every month and have had no issue with them. They do seem to take a hard line on money matters in general though, if the recent dispute with CRG is anything to go by.

Widdershins

She can't have owed 6,000, surely. I don't agree with seizing property worth more than what is owed. Her livelihood probably depends on her car.

wonski

ThisRegard wrote: »

Not really. If you take a look at the report on the last lot of cars seized for non payment of the toll you'll see a lot were pretty decent cars.

edit: Here it is,
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cars-seized-from-drivers-owing-average-28-600-in-m50-tolls-1.2717290
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/almost-60-cars-seized-last-year-after-drivers-failed-to-pay-m50-tolls-34874593.html

Average car value is reported as €28,600, report gives the type and age of cars seized, and the judgement outstanding on their owners.

No, it is not.

And it is not a report really.

Alun

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I do think that €6000, which would easily feed someone for a year in Ireland, has gone far past the point of being a deterrent, or a reasonable compensation for the company who have had to spend their time persuing it.

She would have had ample opportunity in the mean time though to have paid a much lower penalty than that, even no penalty at all if she hadn't just cancelled her account in a hissy fit for no obvious reason, but she chose to ignore those options.

runawaybishop

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I do think that €6000, which would easily feed someone for a year in Ireland, has gone far past the point of being a deterrent, or a reasonable compensation for the company who have had to spend their time persuing it.

I give eflow quite a bit of money every month and have had no issue with them. They do seem to take a hard line on money matters in general though, if the recent dispute with CRG is anything to go by.

If she had actually engaged and gone into court (never mind just paid the minor fine) she would most likely have had that severely reduced. There was a student a few years ago who was basically too busy to pay for 200 trips and had their fine reduced to 15% or something.

edit: 17k fine reduced to 3k, 198 trips.

Alun

Widdershins wrote: »

She can't have owed 6,000, surely. I don't agree with seizing property worth more than what is owed. Her livelihood probably depends on her car.

She owed 3000 I think, but as she appears to have refused to pay that when the sheriffs called, they seized the car. I'd imagine if it's worth 6k, and they actually get that at auction, then she'll get the remainder, after costs of course.

Hank Flaky Nurse

Hank Flaky Nurse wrote: »

........ eflows irregular charging. Taking massive payments out at once at random times. She had a bill of over 150 the day her mortgage came out and then again at Christmas time. As a single mother it left her in a bad situation twice. So she cancelled it.................A new car at that.........................

1) Were the payments taking for toll fees actually accrued by the lady
2) why mention the single mother situation
3) new car waters down whatever answer to 2) is

Alun

I've just got an email reminder that my monthly statement for August is ready to be viewed. I know that that amount will be charged to my debit card on the 15th or thereabouts, so I've got 2 weeks to make sure my finances are in order to pay it, hardly random.

Cienciano

If you use the tolls enough to get €150 you need to set up an account of some sort. You can credit the account if you need to as far as I know or when it gets below a certain amount it will take a set sum from your account. For instance, when it's below €10, it will take €50 from your account.


I had a problem with a new card not registered and ended up with 2 tolls not being paid. Ignored the letter because when I registered the new card, I assumed it would deduct the 2 missed tolls. It didn't and it turned into €40 fine. Forgot to pay it and it turned into either €300 or €600 fine from a solicitor. I called e-flow, explained what happened and they cancelled the big fine, took €2.10 for each journey if I paid the solicitors €12. Which I did.


TLDR; e-flow are grand to deal with if you communicate with them.

Alun

Cienciano wrote: »

If you use the tolls enough to get €150 you need to set up an account of some sort. You can credit the account if you need to as far as I know or when it gets below a certain amount it will take a set sum from your account. For instance, when it's below €10, it will take €50 from your account.

She had an account of some sort apparently, it's not clear if it was a tag or a video account, although for that level of usage a tag would have been a no-brainer. Presumably it was a bill-pay as opposed to a top-up type account she had if she got an "unexpected" bill of €150 though.

ThisRegard

wonski wrote: »

No, it is not.

And it is not a report really.

Tell that to the journalist with your reasons as to why not. I said it was 'reported', I never claimed it was fact.

And generally stories that appear in newspapers are actually reports.

utmbuilder

People on boards are so rude sometimes. Its terrible etoll can enforce such fines the government should set limits like they do on loan sharks.

ZeroThreat

Tbh, it seems to me like this woman deserves to be a pedestrian/public transport user for the rest of her life, going by the high levels of stupidity demonstrated.

ZeroThreat

utmbuilder wrote: »

People on boards are so rude sometimes. Its terrible etoll can enforce such fines the government should set limits like they do on loan sharks.

It's private sector, no more nanny state 'regulation' , thank you.

percy212

It's a pity it got to this stage. I know that people struggling financially often ignore important letters and hope for the best.

I am surprised that eflow would go so far with a bill all the same. Taking someones property for road tolls seems extreme to me. She couldn't possibly owe anywhere near the value of her car. There is nothing to do at this stage but see a solicitor. Perhaps, your friend is unwell or suffering from anxiety which prevented her from dealing with this matter earlier....I hope things work out for her.

wonski

ThisRegard wrote: »

Not really. If you take a look at the report on the last lot of cars seized for non payment of the toll you'll see a lot were pretty decent cars.

edit: Here it is,
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cars-seized-from-drivers-owing-average-28-600-in-m50-tolls-1.2717290
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/almost-60-cars-seized-last-year-after-drivers-failed-to-pay-m50-tolls-34874593.html

Average car value is reported as €28,600, report gives the type and age of cars seized, and the judgement outstanding on their owners.

wonski wrote: »

No, it is not.

And it is not a report really.

ThisRegard wrote: »

Tell that to the journalist with your reasons as to why not. I said it was 'reported', I never claimed it was fact.

And generally stories that appear in newspapers are actually reports.

OK, here it goes.

First of all average value of cars seized was not €28,600.

Also just because they listed some high end cars, some of them almost 10 years old anyway, doesn't mean there weren't any old bangers. Out of 60 they listed some either BMW/Audis or the newest they could find (which happened to be Corolla and Transit). They also seized red car which shows how detailed this news report is.

And finally, it is all speculation at this stage, because one little thing can change the future, and who knows what the actual value of these cars will be in 2105:

In 2105, State-owned toll operator eFlow seized a total of 59 cars on the back of court judgements, just two of which appeared to have been registered outside Dublin – to addresses in Clonee, Co Meath.

This level of journalism is why I generally wouldn't call it a report. A piece written by an intern more like.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Sorry for going off on a tangent, what does the sheriff do with the repossessed cars - are they sold through a particular auction house?

ZeroThreat

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Sorry for going off on a tangent, what does the sheriff do with the repossessed cars - are they sold through a particular auction house?

Yup, I'd love to get a great bargain too!

L1011

utmbuilder wrote: »

People on boards are so rude sometimes. Its terrible etoll can enforce such fines the government should set limits like they do on loan sharks.

The government set the fines in the first place - eFlow enforce charges for TII who own the road and are a state agency.

The debtor generated huge costs by ignoring solicitors letters, not turning up in court, not paying the judgement requiring the sheriff etc - the fine element here is quite small compared to the other costs.

readytosnap

ZeroThreat wrote: »

It's private sector, no more nanny state 'regulation' , thank you.

I thought Eflow was government owned.

Surely if there was a court case (which there must of been for the sheriff to get involved) would the OP's friend not have been informed by registered mail?

As for eflow ( I have used the m50 approx 12 times in the last 5 years, approx 4 different vehicles) One time I forgot to pay and so I waited for the letter with the increased payment (€6?) it never came, so a few more weeks went by and still no letter, so I rang them to explain the situation and gave them the reg, they told me that the previous owner of the vehicle had an acount and that the toll had been paid through that (hence no letters) So I offered to pay the toll which they accepted (no late payment as the account holder had been charged) and told me they would refund the original account holder and remove the vehicle from their account. So I couldn't complain about eflow or how they handled the situation.

Tombo2001

L1011 wrote: »

The government set the fines in the first place - eFlow enforce charges for TII who own the road and are a state agency.

The debtor generated huge costs by ignoring solicitors letters, not turning up in court, not paying the judgement requiring the sheriff etc - the fine element here is quite small compared to the other costs.

(I) Not true.

EFlows website says
(I) the first fine is €3.
(II) the second fine is €41
(III) After that it goes to XYZ solicitor, and at that point it has nothing to do with EFlow anymore.

That is all the eflow website says. There is no indication of what might come down the tracks.

(II) Huge costs of solicitors letters......come on.....the costs of some grad writing up a letter is probably 2 or 3 euros.

What you are talking about is Solicitors Charges, quite another thing. Very little cost is generated.

Its a money making racket.

Carlos Orange

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its a money making racket.

For a money making racket a surprisingly large number of people on this thread seem fairly complimentary of the company. People aren't usually this positive about companies on the internet.

Tombo2001

psinno wrote: »

For a money making racket a surprisingly large number of people on this thread seem fairly complimentary of the company. People aren't usually this positive about companies on the internet.

Yep, that's true.

L1011

Tombo2001 wrote: »

(I) Not true.

Yes, it is. Provide detail on why you think its not true so you can be corrected.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

(II) Huge costs of solicitors letters......come on.....the costs of some grad writing up a letter is probably 2 or 3 euros.

What you are talking about is Solicitors Charges, quite another thing. Very little cost is generated.

Show me the solicitor that charges €3 and I'll have gobs of business to give them

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its a money making racket.

Only if you want to think it is to feel a victim when you've completely ballsed up.

The OPs friend ballsed up, shoved her head in the sand and racked up huge costs and fines. And now they're suffering the consequences. No racket.

Bandana boy

Tombo2001 wrote: »

(I) Not true.

EFlows website says
(I) the first fine is €3.
(II) the second fine is €41
(III) After that it goes to XYZ solicitor, and at that point it has nothing to do with EFlow anymore.

That is all the eflow website says. There is no indication of what might come down the tracks.

(II) Huge costs of solicitors letters......come on.....the costs of some grad writing up a letter is probably 2 or 3 euros.

What you are talking about is Solicitors Charges, quite another thing. Very little cost is generated.

Its a money making racket.

Try get a solicitors letter for 2-3 Euro and see how far you get.

I would be a little familiar with chasing a bad debt and the costs rack up lightening fast , any time you have to go out of process to close an invoice it starts adding people and hours at an alarming rate.

If customers are going to generate costs for the company by not following the agreed process they either pay this from their Margin , charge it equally across all customers (the majority of which pay on time) or "polluter pays" charge it to the individual.
I am happiest with the last option as are the majority of people .

Widdershins

percy212 wrote: »

It's a pity it got to this stage. I know that people struggling financially often ignore important letters and hope for the best.

I am surprised that eflow would go so far with a bill all the same. Taking someones property for road tolls seems extreme to me. She couldn't possibly owe anywhere near the value of her car. There is nothing to do at this stage but see a solicitor. Perhaps, your friend is unwell or suffering from anxiety which prevented her from dealing with this matter earlier....I hope things work out for her.

Nice to see some understanding on the thread. It could well be anxiety that caused the situation to get out of control.
Someone gave a great example of how a couple of missed payments can turn into a huge fine, but said Eflow are ok if you contact them. It could be that the person they got on the day wasn't good to deal with.

Zulu

Lol, "your friend" took a stand (a stand on not paying her bills) and lost.
Sweet baby jesus

Widdershins

readytosnap wrote: »

I thought Eflow was government owned.

Surely if there was a court case (which there must of been for the sheriff to get involved) would the OP's friend not have been informed by registered mail?

As for eflow ( I have used the m50 approx 12 times in the last 5 years, approx 4 different vehicles) One time I forgot to pay and so I waited for the letter with the increased payment (€6?) it never came, so a few more weeks went by and still no letter, so I rang them to explain the situation and gave them the reg, they told me that the previous owner of the vehicle had an acount and that the toll had been paid through that (hence no letters) So I offered to pay the toll which they accepted (no late payment as the account holder had been charged) and told me they would refund the original account holder and remove the vehicle from their account. So I couldn't complain about eflow or how they handled the situation.

No, court summons don't arrive by registered mail.

Alun

Widdershins wrote: »

It could be that the person they got on the day wasn't good to deal with.

It could equally be to do with the attitude she had when she rang them. It shouldn't really make a difference, but if you start off on the wrong foot and come over all combative and aggressive, then your chances of getting a sympathetic response diminish greatly.

Sleeper12

Widdershins wrote:

No, court summons don't arrive by registered mail.

Yes they do. Sorry to disagree but they do

OldNotWIse

Hank Flaky Nurse wrote: »

I'm just looking to get some helpful advice.

My friend had her car towed away by the Sheriff yesterday morning for an unpaid eflow bill.

The case itself is not exactly black and white. She always had an account set up but she had to cancel it because of eflows irregular charging. Taking massive payments out at once at random times. She had a bill of over 150 the day her mortgage came out and then again at Christmas time. As a single mother it left her in a bad situation twice. So she cancelled it.

During that time between cancelling she had 12 journeys built up and only realised when the letters came in the door. She rang eflow to pay the journeys but they would not wave the fee. She explained the situation prior and still they did not care. So her stance with eflow and the solicitors was that she would not be paying the extra charges and will happily go to court and fight her case.
(what happened here)
So yesterday without warning the sheriff towed the car away. A new car at that and not the one she used on the toll bridge. The bill 6000!!! Eflow said its nothing to do with them. The sheriff won't talk on the phone, assistant is saying to make him an offer of at least 3k and the solicitors don't want to know either.

She is a single mother with a mortgage and a brand new job and is completely lost right now. The whole scenario is insane especially when you factor in how this initially happened. How can she fight her case and get her car back without paying the sheriff? Remembering of course that all calls are recorded and that she offered to pay the tolls without fees as it was eflows errors that led to her cancelling her account.

I'm curious as to what happened here. Sheriff would only be there to execute a judgment obtained in court....

qvsr46ofgc792k

I have to stress the information I gave is 100% accurate and not fabricated in anyway. It's 12 journeys only and the rest is fines!

qvsr46ofgc792k

Should she have received registered post for court summons?

wonski

Hank Flaky Nurse wrote: »

I have to stress the information I gave is 100% accurate and not fabricated in anyway. It's 12 journeys only and the rest is fines!

100% accuracy is impossible.

You are passing on information only.

Stheno

Hank Flaky Nurse wrote: »

Should she have received registered post for court summons?

Usually yes.

It probably got buried under all the other ignored post

12 ignored tolls is 500 each which is around what eflow have as the top end penalty

donegal.

why did she not pay for the 12 trips?

wonski

donegal. wrote: »

why did she not pay for the 12 trips?

She wanted to go to court.

She didn't go.

Sleeper12

wonski wrote:

She wanted to go to court.

wonski wrote:

She didn't go.

Spilt my coffee reading that.

salomon

keno-daytrader wrote: »

12 journeys to add up to 6k, does anyone on this thread that is bashing the lady think that 12 trips should add up to 6k?

Set aside the fact that she probably ignored most of the communications, the fact that eflow can rack up these INSANE charges should be illegal.

Have we lost all common sense?

the tolls wouldn't have added up to 6k. however, the Court case with a costs order may well have. if she had have engaged the case wouldn't have gone to court and the toll co wouldn't have had to engage a legal team and pay court fees.

Seth Brundle

Tombo2001 wrote: »

(I) Not true.

EFlows website says
(I) the first fine is €3.
(II) the second fine is €41
(III) After that it goes to XYZ solicitor, and at that point it has nothing to do with EFlow anymore.

That is all the eflow website says. There is no indication of what might come down the tracks.

(II) Huge costs of solicitors letters......come on.....the costs of some grad writing up a letter is probably 2 or 3 euros.

What you are talking about is Solicitors Charges, quite another thing. Very little cost is generated.

Its a money making racket.

According to this (https://www.eflow.ie/help-guidance/faqs/penalties/ive-missed-the-payment-de-1/#comp0000565dcd2f0000000c267b11), there is an additional charge of €103 if not paid after 70 days.


The OPs friend could also claim clemency like this one...
http://m.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/motorist-wins-17k-toll-fight-27150462.html

AlekSmart

kbannon wrote: »

According to this (https://www.eflow.ie/help-guidance/faqs/penalties/ive-missed-the-payment-de-1/#comp0000565dcd2f0000000c267b11), there is an additional charge of €103 if not paid after 70 days.


The OPs friend could also claim clemency like this one...
http://m.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/motorist-wins-17k-toll-fight-27150462.html

Crikey,it's agood job Ms Dunne was'nt studying Finance.

198 Unpaid journeys at c.€3 a pop...lets agree on a total of €600.....OK ?

So,after the Jigs & reels have ceased,Ms Dunne ends up paying €3,000 ...If Clemency it be,then I'm all for it.

Reading the Judges remarks also raises the question of whether this lady actually "Won" any fight with the Authorities...?

Sharon, who now has an eFlow tag, said she tried to make sure she paid the toll before the 8am cut off point but 'a lot of the time that wasn't feasible because I was just very busy'.

The court heard that eFlow wrote to Ms Dunne on :eek: 341 :eek: separate occasions with bills and summonses.

A decree for € 3,857 was granted against Dunne but the judge advised € 3,000 would be paid by agreement of both parties. The parties also agreed a repayment structure and Dunne has set up a registered account for the toll.

Having a decree registered against oneself can have all sorts of unintended consequences,particularly if one was interested in running one's own business.

it looks to me,more like this lady has beleatedly recognized the good sense of financial planning,even if on a very basic level ?

One_Of_Shanks

The first line of the OP's post was "I'm just looking to get some helpful advice"

Everyone saying they've no sympathy, deserved what she got etc is NOT helpful, nor is it advice.

None of us know this person's full situation or what went through her head and yes of course she screwed up but it's done.
She's probably in a heap over this and just needs a way to fix it and move on with her life.

OP, I would not be in the least bit used to situations like this but if it was me I would contact a good solicitor and go from there.

I would probably (after seeing solicitor) offer them 1,000 euro and say it's all I can afford, if the solicitor agrees that it's a good move.

At least that way she is engaging with the company and trying to find a solution.

Perhaps they may come back and say they'll take 2,000 and if they do then pay it or get a credit union loan or something like that to pay it if she doesn't have the money.

I really don't understand why people have to be so critical and rude on here when someone seeks help.

GM228

Widdershins wrote: »

No, court summons don't arrive by registered mail.

They must be delivered by registered post or by hand, but not by standard post.

Mrs OBumble

I gave helpful advice ages ago:

Get a loan.
Pay the fine.
Sell the car.
Get a Leap card.

Simple and effective.

faceman

Ugh. Posts like this never end well on Boards.ie. The moral police always take over. Just like Iran. OP, can we chop your friend's hands off as punishment?

Joking aside. Your friend is in a right pickle. But if the case got to the stage the Sherriff took possession of her car then it does mean she ignored a lot of corespondance on the matter. Believe it or not if she had appeared in court the judge may have took sympathy.

Your friend now has no comeback at this stage. Regardless of how many anyone feels about it (and believe me I feel her pain), she had opportunity to make her case and in the eyes of the court didn't.

WRT to eFlow engaging in such behaviour, it's very common that things like this happen in the hope that the word spreads that they will pursue unpaid tolls.

I'm ok with companies pursuing the "Won't pay" people to the full extent of the law but when it comes to pursuing the "can't pay" people, compassion is necessary.