City of Dublin

sodacat11

You just couldn't make it up. https://www.icu.ie/events/831
The so called "senior" section of the City of Dublin is supposed to be for 2000+ players (it actually was once)yet all seven entrants so far are rated under 1900 and two of them are below 1800. LOL

mikhail

There were 5 players over 2000 in it last year. I'm not sure why they even bother to advertise that band. They'd be better off just making a 1600+ section and being done with it.

checknraise

As one of the more active 2000+ players I was originally planning to play in the City of Dublin but I am not sure I am arsed at the moment.

I regularly play sub 2000 opponents because I am quite active but it does nothing for my chess. At the same time I am conflicted as I want to encourage people to play especially junior players but the current entries are not good enough. The knock on affect is the stronger players dont play.

A 1600+ section with a good prize fund would attract a stronger entry.

checknraise

Of the 12 entries last year 5 were over 2100 ICU, 5 1900+ and 2 >1888. There is no comparison on the standard.

The bottom seed last year is only 6 points off the top seed this year.

http://www.irlchess.com/cod2015_allfiles/pairings_cod2015.html

reunion

They really should get rid of the over 2000 section... Just move the prize fund (even half the prize fund) to an over 2000 only section for players in the 1600 section. I'm sure that would attract some over 2000 players.

checknraise

If the prize fund makes sense absolutely it is worth a go but it might have a negative impact on entries as there a number of 16-2000 players who have no interest in playing 2000+ players having played them plenty of times over the years and do not think they will be competitive.

What is happening at the moment is terrible tho and could potentially have a negative impact on the progress of the junior players who should be playing master level players if it is not resolved ASAP.

Tim Harding

In 2013 the City of Dublin was a very competitive tournament with a good field including Sam Collins, Juri Firstov, Colm Daly, John Delaney, Juan De Dios Ortega (a strong Spaniard who was here a few months and beat Colm) and several other players rated well above 2000. There were only a handful of sub-2000 players.
In 2014 the entry was much smaller (well below 20) but still strong. Last year the entry collapsed with just under 11 players, two of whom are at the Olympiad now so couldn't play this time.
It does make sense to have a good season-opening event but clearly LCU will have to do something, if not this year then certainly next.

Past_Pawn_99

Was gonna enter the under 2000 section to try win some prize money (I'm just under 2000) but with such low entries I would imagine there'll be a much smaller prize fund now and probably not worth my weekend

Debornie

It's a FIDE rated event. Most of those players qualify based on their FIDE Rating points.

sodacat11

Just like the Irish Championship and the Leinster Senior the City of Dublin used to be a very strong event and very well supported but in recent years since the rating floor started to be ignored it has lost all credibility. I agree fully with what Checknraise says, I would have played if it was a stronger tournament (assuming I could have got in with a 1975 rating) but couldn't be bothered turning up to play 17 and 1800 rated players regardless of how much prize money is on offer. This dumbing down of tournaments that we have seen in recent years is driving people like me out of Irish chess.

sodacat11

Debornie wrote: »

It's a FIDE rated event. Most of those players qualify based on their FIDE Rating points.

I don't know what planet you live on but the Earth FIDE list has only one of those entrants with a rating over 2000

Debornie

Players can play if they are with 100 points of the rating band. Theres only 1 there not in the correct band with the 100 point rule in play.

sodacat11

Debornie wrote: »

Players can play if they are with 100 points of the rating band. Theres only 1 there not in the correct band with the 100 point rule in play.

I make it two if you are going by this silly "within 100 point rule". I never understand why organisers don't just say 1900 + instead of trying to pretend it is something it is not with the ludicrous 2000+ BUT anyone within 100 points can play.(How Irish is that?)
The event is "supposed" to be for 2000 rated players. FIDE ratings are generally far more generous than ICU ratings as is evidenced by players with ICU ratings below 1800 having FIDE ratings of 1900+. The whole thing is just a farce, better to lump all the sections together and call it an Open. It really bugs me the way so many once great tournaments have been dumbed down and devalued to the extent that they have.

zeitnot

Debornie wrote: »

It's a FIDE rated event. Most of those players qualify based on their FIDE Rating points.

Debornie wrote: »

Players can play if they are with 100 points of the rating band. Theres only 1 there not in the correct band with the 100 point rule in play.

The problem is that *everyone* who has entered so far has done so on the basis of this 100 point rule, apart from the ones who don't qualify even based on that. There isn't a single player who is rated 2000 on any list. All these players playing 'up' will end up playing the same set of people they'd have played anyway if they had entered the main section they're qualified for.

Not too surprising, really. Many players are keen to play up as it's a much better and more enjoyable experience. It never seems to occur to those in charge that there's an equal and opposite converse: players are very reluctant to play down, because it's a worse and less enjoyable experience. How many tournaments do you see where players are allowed to play *down* if they're less than 100 points over the upper limit? None, because nobody is interested and there's no demand for it.

ComDubh

Well put Zeitnot. I've had the same feeling about the Irish -- people want to bend the rules as far as they can to get into it, but then realise that the "it" isn't there any more. Like blagging your way into the VIP lounge only to find that everyone else there blagged their way in as well. Maybe the rule should be that players in the 100-point range join a queue and are allowed in on a ratio basis, say at least 80% of the competitors must be over the proper rating limit. What we have now is absurd, and like others, it's puts me off playing.

cdeb

Not the worst of ideas - but I think I'd just go full old-fashioned and stick to the ratings lists.

Was it Malahide that used to have the overlapping grading bands? So Under 1600 and 1500+ - but strictly applied. Or in this case, 0-1200, 1150-1600, 1550-2000 and 1950+ (if the numbers are there). One player can be invited to float up to even out numbers.

Ignore FIDE ratings; they're not worth a thing outside of the top players.

There's enough different grading bands around the weekenders these days that a player wouldn't be trapped at, say, 1520, unable to push on through the ceiling by virtue of only playing lower-rated players.

I think I'd make an exception for Gonzaga, funnily enough, which has carved out a bit of a niche for itself (in my mind anyway!) as a junior-orientated tournament, which is appropriate as one of the top junior breeding grounds in the country. So there's the one chance all season to flaunt the rating bands, and entrants are fully aware of it. (I don't mind the special invites for the Irish Championships either)

sodacat11

I hope that the powers that be are taking note of the comments that people are making here. As Zeitnot says no one wants to play "down" especially people who have put the work in to reach a decent standard. What should happen is that rating bands be strictly adhered to then everyone would want to play in the elite events. People like me would dust off their chess books and start entering tournaments again and players in the 17-1900 rating range would do their damnedest to improve their rating so that they could play in the top events too. Naturally intermediate and junior tournaments would also become stronger as the people who currently play "up" would have to go back where they belong.It would be a win win situation for everyone. Time to scrap this ludicrous "within 100 point" rule .
I'd love to know who the idiot who brought it in in the first place was?

2bts

Enniscorthy had overlapping bands, strictly enforced, against a specific rating list declared in advance.

sodacat11

3,000 euro in prize money for the City of Dublin??? That will be a nice little earner for someone but it seems like a waste of money to me given the weakness of the top section.

reunion

sodacat11 wrote: »

3,000 euro in prize money for the City of Dublin??? That will be a nice little earner for someone but it seems like a waste of money to me given the weakness of the top section.

That's 3,000 for all sections, not just for one section.

checknraise

The prize fund is subject to entry so far from guaranteed.

They have cost themselves a minimum of 5 2000+ players entering by lowering the standard. Many of the sub 2000 players playing in the masters you would assume have played in the major section.

Tom O'Gorman one of Ireland most promising junior players has decided to play a tournament in the UK over the City of Dublin, no doubt influenced by the level of entries. As I said in a previous thread - juniors that need strong opposition and have reached the appropriate standard are the ones losing out as a result of allowing everyone to play.

The big problem for Irish chess and weekenders in particular is that our strongest players are not playing. There are a variety of reasons as to why but I guarantee one of the main reasons is lowering the standard by allowing anyone to enter.

mikhail

All entries so far:
http://www.icu.ie/articles/629

14 entries to date. Only 4 are <1900 in both FIDE and ICU ratings.

zeitnot

mikhail wrote: »

All entries so far:
http://www.icu.ie/articles/629

14 entries to date. Only 4 are <1900 in both FIDE and ICU ratings.

... and only 4 are over 2000 on either list, which was the nominal requirement. The exception has swallowed the rule.

Maybe it should be advertised differently? "1900-2000, but players over 2000 may play if they wish. P.S. only joking about the 1900 part".

mikhail

Yeah, the exceptions are kind of daft. Very Irish. It would seem far simpler to just have overlapping bands and enforce them.

cdeb

I see entries for Kilkenny opened today. The wording around the grading bands is interesting - "James Mason - rated at least 1200; rated at most 1600". I wonder if that indicates a change of tack in taking entries? I remember losing to a 1350 in the 1600-2000 a few years back. I'd actually won the game twice over I think, and threw it away each time!

Joedryan

checknraise wrote: »

The prize fund is subject to entry so far from guaranteed.

They have cost themselves a minimum of 5 2000+ players entering by lowering the standard. Many of the sub 2000 players playing in the masters you would assume have played in the major section.

Tom O'Gorman one of Ireland most promising junior players has decided to play a tournament in the UK over the City of Dublin, no doubt influenced by the level of entries. As I said in a previous thread - juniors that need strong opposition and have reached the appropriate standard are the ones losing out as a result of allowing everyone to play.

The big problem for Irish chess and weekenders in particular is that our strongest players are not playing. There are a variety of reasons as to why but I guarantee one of the main reasons is lowering the standard by allowing anyone to enter.

indeed, the dreaded phrase "prize fund subject to entry" has never been appealing to chess players

sodacat11

It is a pity that any 2000+ players are supporting the event because the only way we will get rid of the "whatever you're having yourself" entry criteria is for people to be united in their boycotting of such events.

brilliantboy

cdeb wrote: »

Ignore FIDE ratings; they're not worth a thing outside of the top players.

fixed that for you

tman66

sodacat11 wrote: »

It is a pity that any 2000+ players are supporting the event because the only way we will get rid of the "whatever you're having yourself" entry criteria is for people to be united in their boycotting of such events.

I must say I am very disappointed to see a thread such as this. Tournament organisers have a difficult enough time without having to deal with the likes of this, because a few don't like the rating bands.

As it's a FIDE rated section, people can use their FIDE ratings for entry. Of the four players that I found on the list with FIDE ratings below 1900, three are juniors. Obviously the tournament organiser has his reasons for these four being allowed into that section. Did anyone contact him before criticizing him in this thread?

If tournament organisers were to be held to ransom by every player that has an issue, there would be no tournaments.

Thankfully the majority disagree with the sentiment in this thread, as can be seen by the entry list. Who'd be a tournament organiser...

cdeb

tman66 wrote: »

Thankfully the majority disagree with the sentiment in this thread, as can be seen by the entry list.

I don't think that necessarily follows?

reunion

tman66 wrote: »

Tournament organisers have a difficult enough time without having to deal with the likes of this, because a few don't like the rating bands.

Couldn't agree more.

Personally, this tournament for me (though I'm not 2000+) was before my first club meeting so I don't want to start my chess playing season until I've starting my club season (I'm out of practise so don't want to go up and play some poor games). Just too early for me.

I'd rather play some club games first and possible some longer games online.

reunion

cdeb wrote: »

I don't think that necessarily follows?

To be fair, you can't deduce anything from that entry list except that 17 players are scheduled to play in the Masters section as of the 7th of September.

cdeb

Yup; that's about it.

It would be interesting to do a survey of all registered ICU members in the past 10 years to see if you could work out what would bring players back, or what would encourage them to play more weekenders. Maybe grading bands is an issue; maybe it's not. But no harm in asking I guess.

checknraise

There is no point arguing with anyone here as the majority posting are not in position to play in a master section. Whats happening at the moment is having a negative impact on the participation of our strongest players that much should be clear to everyone.

I do intend to contact the organiser one the tournament is over and will give Pat my point of view. I have no ill feeling towards any organiser and I know they do a thankless job. Prize money, free time and strong opposition is what is important to our top players.

I am one of Ireland's more active 2000+ rated players and am not saying this for the sake of it. I enjoy playing chess and want to play chess but I also would like to have one tournament in Dublin where I can get serious competition for a weekend. I decided not to play when I saw the entries a number of weeks ago and there was no incentive for me to play and I know others felt the same.

sodacat11

I have no ill feeling towards any tournament organiser either, especially since I have organised a number of tournaments myself in the past. Like checknraise I would just like to play chess in a tournament against decent opposition occasionally. The City of Dublin, the Leinster Senior, Cork and the Irish Championship all used to be very strong and enjoyable tournaments that I would attend every year but now I don't bother with any of them because of the way that they have been dumbed down and I know from talking to other 19-2100 players that I am not the only one who has lost interest. I still enjoy playing in Gonzaga and Enniscorthy so it is certainly not a case of me trying to protect my rating. If a tournament is "open" then great, no problem, I know what I will get when I enter it. My problem is the tournaments that falsely advertise that they are restricted events then let every Tom, Dick and Harry that knows the en passant rule to enter.

sodacat11

I see that the advertised top seed David Fitzsimons isn't playing after all. I wonder if he too felt that it was too weak to bother with?
No sign of the results anywhere that I can find,just the pairings.

Joedryan

any results or games?

eclipsechaser

Joedryan wrote: »

any results or games?

U1200 was won by Hugh Byrne.

U1600 was won by Dermot Nolan.

U2000 was won by Vjekoslav Novak, Gavin and Shane Melaugh.

2000+ was won by Henry Li.

Joedryan

eclipsechaser wrote: »

U1200 was won by Hugh Byrne.

U1600 was won by Dermot Nolan.

U2000 was won by Vjekoslav Novak, Gavin and Shane Melaugh.

2000+ was won by Henry Li.

thank you.
never heard of Henry Li. Suppose a report and games will follow at some stage.

cdeb

Full cross tables on Leinsterchess.com

Henry will be winning more tournaments in the future, I suspect! Surprised you've not heard of him, even assuming you're in exile. Won the Glorney I think this year and last year?

Joedryan

cdeb wrote: »

Full cross tables on Leinsterchess.com

Henry will be winning more tournaments in the future, I suspect! Surprised you've not heard of him, even assuming you're in exile. Won the Glorney I think this year and last year?

aha...will try and catch up quick so he is an Irish up and coming junior? sounds good.

cdeb

Yup. One of many in fairness. 2000+ at age 14.

brilliantboy

cdeb wrote: »

Yup. One of many in fairness. 2000+ at age 14.

Also one of the young lads that a certain one or two raised a fuss about being allowed play in the Irish Championship not too long ago isn't he?

cdeb

Henry would have been eligible by rating I'd say? Even last year I think. Could be wrong though.

I see the City of Dublin win has pushed him over 2100 now.

That said, good and all as Henry is, I think it does bring us back to the starting point of this thread when a player rated 2024 (at the start) is winning a 2000+ tournament

brilliantboy

cdeb wrote: »

Henry would have been eligible by rating I'd say? Even last year I think. Could be wrong though.

I see the City of Dublin win has pushed him over 2100 now.

That said, good and all as Henry is, I think it does bring us back to the starting point of this thread when a player rated 2024 (at the start) is winning a 2000+ tournament

Because we have a limited number of 2000+ players to go around?
Some aren't very active even at the best of times, there's a few away at the Olympiad, those few from beyond the pale are presumably preparing for the upcoming Munster Championships or just couldn't be arsed with the hassle/expense of a Dublin tournament.

Of course it also fits with the "vast numbers of strong Irish chess players are boycotting tournaments due to the widespread practice of letting weakies in" narrative if you choose to look at it that way.

cdeb

There's a limited pool, for sure. But 3? That's how many 2000+s played at the weekend.

But while I don't mind a limited number of invites for the Irish Championships, I do think the current issue with grading bands needs to be sorted, and I can well imagine it's turning people away.

If nothing else, I think the circuit would benefit from one tournament with completely strict rating bands, and FIDE ratings ignored.

2bts

Henry Li was board 1 on the winning 2015 Robinson Cup team
and board 2 on the winning 2016 Glorney Cup team
see www.glorneycupchess.org and http://www.icu.ie/articles/607 for more

checknraise

Congrats to Henry certainly wont be the last tournament he wins.

Not the strongest tournament but he beat two good players along the way. Hopefully in future we will get atleast one proper master tournament weekender in Dublin. It is important for people like Henry that they get tough competition regularly.

Tim Harding

Just back from a busy week or so of family events, hence did not comment earlier in this thread.
When I saw the start list I reckoned there were only two likely winners: Henry or Ioanna. As it turned out, Henry had White when they met and that was possibly the decisive factor.

I tend to agree with the general drift of comments made in this thread about tournaments like the City of Dublin being devalued by letting in lower-rated players.

To fill Joe in on these relative newcomers, Ioanna (from Romania and about 20-21 years old) has already won two weekend tournaments in the 12 months or so that she's been living in Ireland and has been a major asset for the Dublin University team. She told me she qualified for the Romanian women's championship this year also.

Henry, who won't be 14 until December (!), could have played in the Glorney Cup winning team last year but preferred to play top board in the Robinson. This year he was on the Glorney team. I played him three times in 2015 scoring +1 =1 -1.

He and Tom O'Gorman (roughly the same age) are basically in a race to see which of them, if they continue playing chess (because no doubt they have other interests), will first reach the obvious targets coming up: 2200 rating, FM and IM. For about a year already, they have been the strongest Irish juniors bar Conor (who is about five years older than them), and they both played in the 2015 Irish Championship. And this is at a period when we have quite a good crop of other players between the ages of 14 and 18 who could well go over 2200 in time.

The problem is not with giving talented juniors every opportunity of meeting strong opposition but allowing older players to breach the stated rating bands. Henry and Tom should probably be getting more games against opponents rated between 2100 and 2350 but there are not that many opportunities to do that in Ireland. Players in that band (of whom we don't have that many who are really active) will certainly be reluctant to compete in a two games per day FIDE-rated event where half their games are likely to be against players rated below them, and the first round opponent won't be much over 1800.

zeitnot

Tim Harding wrote: »

The problem is not with giving talented juniors every opportunity of meeting strong opposition but allowing older players to breach the stated rating bands.

I'll have to disagree with this.

Henry and Tom both participated in the 2015 Irish championship when they were rated under 1900. In 2016 both were well over 1900 and needed no exception --- but they didn't play. They can't be blamed for that because they'd gain nothing by playing players a couple of hundred points below them. In other words they have the same incentives as any other player.

Stretching the rules to add lower-rated players, even if they are "talented juniors", is counter-productive: the net effect is to drive other players away, including more talented juniors.