Upgrading to pd130/150 turbo.

LawlessBoy

Just wondering has anyone on here previously done this and how easy did you find it ? Ive done my research and am planning to go ahead with it in the next few weeks just need to source some parts.

Im currently driving a PD105 Passat and hoping to get about 180bhp from it after i have this work done. Basically ill be taking the injectors, turbo and possibly some other bits from a pd130 or a pd150 engine (mk4 era) and swapping them onto my car along with some other upgrades such as uprated headbolts and possibly some intercooler work. Some may think its a mad idea but i like the car and dont want to have to change but i am looking for more power.

After looking around on various VAG forums ive come down to the conclusion that for the best results ill be looking at changing :

Turbo
Exhaust manifold
Oil lines
Injectors
Headbolts
EGR delete
New clutch/flywheel later down the line.
Custom downpipe for new manifold
And then finally a remap to finish it all off.

After all this is done ive heard of people pushing 220bhp from this set up but i wouldnt be looking for that much of a gain. As i feel the reliability of the set up would be a lot lower then the power i am looking for.

Anyone have any thoughts on this or have carried out work in the past would be greatly appreciated.

king_of_inismac

My only advice is to upgrade the clutch/flywheel before any remap.

My clutch lasted no time after my remap (good remapper too).

I'd also suggested making sure your brakes and tyres are in good order also. Don't want all the extra power and then ending up in a ditch a few weeks later.

Best of luck with it.

tossy

Probably going to need some bigger brakes and suspension work too. Loads of OEM bolt on brake upgrades available from W8s/S4's etc.

LawlessBoy

Short term solution i was planning with brakes was simply to upgrade the current discs and pads. Was thinking of going with Ferodo ds2500 pads but not sure what discs to be looking at i will have to do a bit more research.

CapriDan

I've tuned a lot of these engines and the previous generation pds so I've a few bits of info you may find helpful.

If it's a bxe or bls don't touch it as they're prone to throw rods in standard form. I myself will only tune the bkc 105bhp engine as they're the only ones proven to hold power on the standard bottom end. The turbos and manifold are cast as one unit. A Garrett gt1749vb from an ARL will suit you perfectly and will be easier to map than a hybrid. Your standard injectors will see you too 170-180bhp. Them Passats have a front mount intercooler as standard. I've leaned on them a good bit going as high as 1.8 bar and there's been no issues. Anything more than roughly 1.6 bar I'd put arp head studs into to stop the head lifting.

Hope that was off some help.

Special Circumstances

CapriDan wrote: »

If it's a bxe or bls don't touch it as they're prone to throw rods in standard form.

I've heard people say it's not as bad as it's made out to be, apparently you just have to change the shell bearings every few oil changes and you're golden.

Your advice sounds like a better option to be honest!

LawlessBoy

Thanks ill take all of this inter consideration. A friend of mine is a VAG technician and he will be helping out with bits and pieces of the build.

The engine is a BKC so the bottom end shouldnt be a problem with the power i am looking to gain.. i will more then likely be putting new uprated head bolts in just as a precaution

Have you made 180 yourself from pd105 injectors? I was told they max out around 140/150 bhp.

CapriDan

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I've heard people say it's not as bad as it's made out to be, apparently you just have to change the shell bearings every few oil changes and you're golden.

Your advice sounds like a better option to be honest!

The rods in them are meant to be thinner than the ones in the bkc although I've never had two to compare so can't say for sure. Supposedly the rod bolts aren't as strong too. They were manufactured in a vag plant in Poland and there were issues with quality at the time. Changing big end bearings isn't exactly easy. I've seen two in my area throw a rod both well maintained and always given 505.01 spec oil. I also have friends in the trade who've seen it countless times. If you look on darkside developments website you'll see anything with a bxe or bls running big power has bottom end work. They have bkcs running around 260bhp on standard pistons, rods and crank!

CapriDan

LawlessBoy wrote: »

Thanks ill take all of this inter consideration. A friend of mine is a VAG technician and he will be helping out with bits and pieces of the build.

The engine is a BKC so the bottom end shouldnt be a problem with the power i am looking to gain.. i will more then likely be putting new uprated head bolts in just as a precaution

Have you made 180 yourself from pd105 injectors? I was told they max out around 140/150 bhp.

Brilliant, you've a good base to start from so. I've just finished tuning an A3 running an xman vb hybrid at 1.8 bar and the standard injectors are still in it. You can get up to 70mg/str but the duration is maxed. Potentially with that fuel and boost it's getting it should be making close to that power. This car has got a lot of supporting mods and cylinder head work too though which has helped a lot. Asz/arl injectors would be the best choice if you plan to go further in the future. It will cost a bit more to have them mapped in as all the fuel and timing tables have to be changed. Darkside quote 170bhp on their website for pd105 injectors.

LawlessBoy

Thats good to know. It means i wont have to get the injectors straight away. Ordering the EGR delete from darkside developments in the morning hopefully. Getting the weather and time to do the work is the next problem

LawlessBoy

Just said I would throw in a quick update. Never actually got around to picking up the EGR delete from Darkside Developments, I did on the other hand get myself on some nice goodies today.

ARL Injectors and a Fabia RS turbo.



Both are in good condition with the injectors having only got new seal kits on all of them. Things are finally being set in motion.

debabyjesus

What turbo is that VA, VB or VC? Someone mentioned using arp head studs earlier I'd just use the ARL head bolts. Get a boost gauge too. I presume you'll need a 3 bar map sensor too, not sure what is stock on the 105 engine most likely 2.5bar.

Also if you have a vac gauge check the actuator holds vacuum and start to move at 3 to 5 inhg and hits the stop around 18 or 19 inhg.

If I was you I'd be taking that turbo apart and cleaning vnt mechanism before you fit it.

LawlessBoy

debabyjesus wrote: »

What turbo is that VA, VB or VC? Someone mentioned using arp head studs earlier I'd just use the ARL head bolts. Get a boost gauge too. I presume you'll need a 3 bar map sensor too, not sure what is stock on the 105 engine most likely 2.5bar.

Also if you have a vac gauge check the actuator holds vacuum and start to move at 3 to 5 inhg and hits the stop around 18 or 19 inhg.

If I was you I'd be taking that turbo apart and cleaning vnt mechanism before you fit it.

My own mistake it is not actually a VRS Fabia turbo. It came off of a crashed RS, but is in fact originally off of a BLT polo. :pac: A friend sourced this for me and gave me the wrong info.

About the head studs, even though ARP have been recommended to me by people i have spoken to i will probably end up just going with ARL ones. I havent really looked around online for prices yet but i do know Darkside sell them for £225 in comparison with the ARL bolts being around €40
ARL HEADBOLTS
ARP HEADBOLTS

Why is it that you mention the map sensor im not a mechanic myself just a DIYer but it hasnt been mentioned to me before. Ill have to do some more research on this part.

The turbo will be stripped down and cleaned by a friend of mine who has plenty of experience with things like that.

debabyjesus

I'm more used to modding the ve tdi not the pd but the ve 90bhp and 110bhp had 2.5bar map sensors meaning you could only read about 1.5 bar of boost above atmospheric. So if you were putting an ARL VB turbo or hybrid turbo on the ve tdi you had to fit the 3 bar or bigger map sensor to read the higher boost and still allow some headroom to read overboost. Hope this makes sense. Of course it's not just a matter of fitting it and away you go. It needs to be fitted during mapping and maps adjusted for it.

The pd130 and pd150 have 3 bar map sensor as standard. I'm not sure about the pd105. Maybe someone else can chime in on this.

The pd150 head bolts are fine for what you're doing. The arp ones will certainly make your wallet lighter.

One thing you should do when opening that turbo for cleaning, Mark the face of the vnt control ring so you know how it fits back. It can be installed upside down and won't let the vanes go full open at high rpm which leads to overboost at high rpm. The control ring is not symmetrical and is easy to fit upside down. Ask me how I know this

LawlessBoy

Thanks i appreciate the feedback. I will have to look further into the map sensor situation. What you have said does make perfect sense.

LawlessBoy

Stock the BKC runs a 2.5 BAR MAP sensor. I think i will go ahead and upgrade to the 3 BAR though theyre cheap enough to pick up.

debabyjesus

Darkside sell genuine ones for very little. You better check your current one as the same sensor comes in different hole sizes, one for an 18mm hole and one for a 10mm hole iirc. Check your intercooler to see what size your current sensor is.

Darkside sell an adaptor to fit the 10mm sensor into an intercooler with an 18mm hole. Most aftermarket intercoolers come with a 10mm hole so if you plan on upgrading the intercooler later you're best off with the smaller 10mm sensor. I'm probably rambling a bit so look at the darkside website for a better explanation!

LawlessBoy

debabyjesus wrote: »

Darkside sell genuine ones for very little. You better check your current one as the same sensor comes in different hole sizes, one for an 18mm hole and one for a 10mm hole iirc. Check your intercooler to see what size your current sensor is.

Darkside sell an adaptor to fit the 10mm sensor into an intercooler with an 18mm hole. Most aftermarket intercoolers come with a 10mm hole so if you plan on upgrading the intercooler later you're best off with the smaller 10mm sensor. I'm probably rambling a bit so look at the darkside website for a better explanation!

Put in an order this evening for new braided oil lines, ARL headbolts, a 3 bar MAP sensor and the EGR delete. Hopefully have them tuesday or wednesday.

debabyjesus

Good stuff. That flexible oil supply line is great. I never bothered with the egr delete/race pipe, I just blank it and set it to minimum with vcds. I like the anti shudder valve and it provides a bit of security too in case of runaway so I like to keep the whole assembly.

LawlessBoy

Was expecting the sensor to be alot more expensive. £20 ex VAT.

debabyjesus

Yeah it's one of the few things they sell cheaply, some of their stuff is ridiculous money. Although the after sales support and warranty is very good. Weak sterling is making a gtb turbo kit cheaper every day!

The owner posts on tdiclub as RyanP. They seem to sell a lot of stuff to America and Canada, lots of second hand stuff that's widely available in every scrapyard here and are like gold dust over there.

LawlessBoy

I came across them on ebay selling the injectors i picked up for 130 for over 500 euro. Its crazy if youvhave the name to back it up because they did sell.

I cant fault them at all with their response times either i emailed them this morning expecting a reply maybe tomorrow evening and had one within 20 minutes.

LawlessBoy

Got in contact with Joe Power today about getting the car mapped. Found out a few things that i didnt know, apparently i wont even need to change the injectors to get the power im looking for that the stock ones should be capable of them power gains. On the other hand i already have the Pd150 ones bought so im tempted to just put them in anyway.

corkgsxr

LawlessBoy wrote: »

Got in contact with Joe Power today about getting the car mapped. Found out a few things that i didnt know, apparently i wont even need to change the injectors to get the power im looking for that the stock ones should be capable of them power gains. On the other hand i already have the Pd150 ones bought so im tempted to just put them in anyway.

Didn't someone above say they would be running close to 100% of duty cycle?

Better off to change them to bring that down

LawlessBoy

Yeah it was mentioned above, and i do have the uprated ones there and was planning on swapping them out anyway just thought it was funny that they arent actually required.

corkgsxr

Technically you can run injectors at 100 cycle but it's not a good idea.

They can overheat and stick or give up.

The closer you get to 100 the less accurate the control is.

That's why 85 is recommended at max duty cycle

DaveCoz

Craic lads, I've got a Leon fr 150 and I'm seriously considering getting a hybrid turbo and getting something done with the exhaust and then a map to get the most from it. I was thinking of give souhans a call about the exhaust? And then I hear Joe power is the best for a remap? I was also looking on darkside at a stage 2 hybrid, and feedback would be appreciated

debabyjesus

Get a complete gtb turbo kit off darkside. The kit comes with a decat downpipe I wouldn't bother doing anything else with exhaust.

It's pricey but complete kit you could install yourself if you anyway handy with tools. I think with 1756 turbo it's about €2500 at current exchange rates.

You could get your current turbo 1749vb turned into a hybrid and pick up all the other bits individually.

If you want it done asap I'd get the gtb kit installed and mapped by them on the same day. Get the ferry over and drive up to them.

DaveCoz

Thanks for the info, ye it had crossed my mind driving over to them but it seems like a good drive upto where they are. Is there anywhere here or up north that is considered good?
I'm also going to have too replace or recon my box and while I'm at it I'll be doing the clutch, I was looking on sachs website and they've got a full clutch kit for about £290 and then a performance one for £700, would the standard Sach one cop with 200-220bhp?

debabyjesus

I'd be going for smf kit. You have an 02m gearbox. Smf will be cheaper more reliable and still feel stock depending on which pressure plate you go for. Bit more noise and chatter at idle but not bad.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who would map it for you in Ireland/NI. Darkside do an all in deal of fitting and mapping. Could do your clutch at the same time.

http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/darkside-1-9-2-0-tdi-turbo-kit-inc-fitting-and-mapping.html

Whatever you do if you want a reliable 240bhp you best get friendly with the local credit union manager!

DaveCoz

Ye I was looking at the smf but was wondering what it would be like compared to the dmf. I came across a crowd called TG Performance Ireland & Turbochargers and asked him a few things, all in for a hybrid and map is €850 (hybrid 450) (fitting €150) (map 250) and he said it would take the car to about 220bhp. Now I know darkside are probably in a different league to this crowd but the difference in price is absolutely massive!

debabyjesus

You pays your money you takes your choice I suppose!

LawlessBoy

Just a little update. The work has begun! EGR taken out and to be replaced with the Darkside Developments delete kit.


The darkside kit really does seem very well made. They also include a genuine VW blanking plate for the exhaust manifold itself!

Injectors were also removed last night to be replaced with PD150 injectors which will be done tonight along with a start on fitting the new turbo. Ended up going with a Garrett GT1749VA as opposed to the KKK turbo posted earlier.

debabyjesus

The VA is from pd130 and will be a bit of a bottleneck for you imo. Max safe boost 21psi and should be good for 165bhp with some reliability.

LawlessBoy

debabyjesus wrote: »

The VA is from pd130 and will be a bit of a bottleneck for you imo. Max safe boost 21psi and should be good for 165bhp with some reliability.

Yeah ive read it up but it was just down to what was available and within budget. Would have prefered to get my hands on a VB turbo but unfortunately i couldnt source one within budget. Ill see how its going after christmas i highly doubt the modding will stop with this 😊

debabyjesus

Yeah once the bug bites it bites hard

LawlessBoy

Car is nearly finished now, last few bits need to be done and to see will it fire up. It will have to be mapped ASAP but before that i will need to get a new exhaust made up. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get one made up in Dublin?

debabyjesus

I used this decat downpipe. Yours is obviously different but that company will sell it on ebay too.

http://m.ebay.ie/itm/SEAT-LEON-TOLEDO-HATCHBACK-1-9-D-1-9-TDI-90-110-150HP-1998-Decat-Cat-Bypass-/181241943980?nav=SEARCH

It has a small silencer type unit fitted where the cat should be so it looks like a cat is there. Takes about 10mins to fit once you're under the car. If you want boos and coos just chop the back box off and weld in a bit of pipe.

I really don't see any benefit doing anything else with the exhaust!

LawlessBoy

debabyjesus wrote: »

I used this decat downpipe. Yours is obviously different but that company will sell it on ebay too.

http://m.ebay.ie/itm/SEAT-LEON-TOLEDO-HATCHBACK-1-9-D-1-9-TDI-90-110-150HP-1998-Decat-Cat-Bypass-/181241943980?nav=SEARCH

It has a small silencer type unit fitted where the cat should be so it looks like a cat is there. Takes about 10mins to fit once you're under the car. If you want boos and coos just chop the back box off and weld in a bit of pipe.

I really don't see any benefit doing anything else with the exhaust!

Im doing my best to avoid a coo outve it. Wouldnt be me. I have to get onto a frw places tomorrow regarding the exhaust for prices ect.

debabyjesus

Yeah leave the backbox, some lads like the chooooooo. That 130 turbo is particularly annoying for it. That decat pipe above sounds like stock with the resonator type thing built in and brought egt down a bit.

LawlessBoy

Has anyone ever put a similar turbo to the GT1749VA on a mk5 platform 1.9tdi have the turbo mounted but a little stuck for ideas on intercooling piping.

Ill upload photos in the morning the drive shaft and the space is a problem and looking for ideas on how to get the piping done.

debabyjesus

Presume you'll just need the outlet pipe from a pd130. The only difference between the two turbos is how to outlet pipe connects to the turbo. Pd115 connects with a jubilee clip and the pd130 has a spring clip.

Edit sorry forgot you've got a pd105. Not sure really but should be handy find out on Google.

LawlessBoy

debabyjesus wrote: »

Presume you'll just need the outlet pipe from a pd130. The only difference between the two turbos is how to outlet pipe connects to the turbo. Pd115 connects with a jubilee clip and the pd130 has a spring clip.

Edit sorry forgot you've got a pd105. Not sure really but should be handy find out on Google.

From everything ive found on google ill need to fabricate the pipework myself for the most part. Makes the job a bit harder now though. Comes very close to the drive shaft.

dev100

debabyjesus wrote:

Edit sorry forgot you've got a pd105. Not sure really but should be handy find out on Google.

The mark 5 105 is a Pd engine also ? Never knew that

LawlessBoy

dev100 wrote: »

The mark 5 105 is a Pd engine also ? Never knew that

Yep, bolt on job for everything same as other PD's. Ive got all the stuff in my head now that i need. Going to take a trip over to Murray Motorsport tomorrow to see what they can do for me on the hoses and tubing side of things.

Or does anyone else know somewhere in dublin that would stock alloy/steel tubing and silicon hoses.

debabyjesus

Is the orientation totally different on the new turbo or what? What's different? Inlet, outlet, exhaust?

What turbo is stock on the 105?

LawlessBoy

debabyjesus wrote: »

Is the orientation totally different on the new turbo or what? What's different? Inlet, outlet, exhaust?

What turbo is stock on the 105?

Outlet is in a completely different position. The old turbo was a KKK turbo havent got the exact part no.

LawlessBoy

After looking into it more on some dedicated vag and tdi forums found that what i really should have used is a turbo off of another transverse engine. If i hadve done that the whole thing would have been plug and play .

debabyjesus

Oh right thought you got transverse Gt1749va off ASZ engine so was wondering what the problem was.

Best thing you can do imo is ditch the longitudinal turbo and start looking for Gt1749vb off the ARL.

fancy pigeon

Can you not ream out your old housing to make the new turbo fit?

This is how I got a GT20 to fit in a T2 housing for my old D-Turbo, the end result being a 406 that could outpace a PD150 Golf easily (a few more tricks I did I won't divulge as they don't apply to a VW PD engine but this is the main one)

LawlessBoy

Ive parts on order from both ASH and darkside developments. The car has been off the road now for almost 2 weeks and at this stage i just want the project finished.

Ive bought a gt17 flange from darkside and also going to fabricate my own boost pipes.

Dont you just love when things dont go to plan....