Vuelta Short Stage - Sunday (lots of early action)

Eamonnator

terrydel wrote: »

Or ordered to stop trying and save themselves for another day, knowing they wouldnt get dq'ed because of the oul safety in numbers trick.

which surely was the sensible thing to do. Nothing wrong with that.

mhiggy09

pelevin wrote: »

ITV4 at 7pm looks worth a watch.

The one day I miss highlights.

Andalucia

Rules, there are no rules, especially when British Cycling aka SKY is involved

watch tomorrow, and Sky train will be dominant again after the easy day - I'd say we went harder in our Sunday spin that they did in the grupetto today

Daroxtar

Only finished watching that now, spent the evening avoiding this thread. What an incredible stage. Reminded me a bit of Fuente Dé a few years ago. La Vuelta has been my favourite GT for a good while now and it's just getting better IMHO.

Eamonnator

Andalucia wrote: »

Rules, there are no rules, especially when British Cycling aka SKY is involved

watch tomorrow, and Sky train will be dominant again after the easy day - I'd say we went harder in our Sunday spin that they did in the grupetto today

Do you really think, that the organisers were ever going to DQ 90 riders?

Andalucia

No, but whats the point of any rules if its going to be subjective enforcement

a few years ago the Ras had to eliminate a bunch of around 20, mostly county riders - enforcement of rules should be consistent - they obviously sat up today because they knew they wouldn't get DQ'd

MediaMan

Watched the whole stage tonight having recorded it. I don't recall seeing a more fascinating or dramatic stage in a GT in a long time!

The Movistar tactics and performance were great to watch.

Interesting to see the Sky-bashers on here changing their tune from "Sky controlled the stage, very boring..." to "Sky got destroyed on the stage, but I've got some new reasons to hate them now...".

:pac:

Brian?

Andalucia wrote: »

No, but whats the point of any rules if its going to be subjective enforcement

a few years ago the Ras had to eliminate a bunch of around 20, mostly county riders - enforcement of rules should be consistent - they obviously sat up today because they knew they wouldn't get DQ'd

I don't see why you're using this as a stick to beat Sky with. It happens all of the time in all of the Grand Tours.

retalivity

I dont like sky as much as the next guy, but having 7 fit and fresh domestiques is only good if froome is not bolloxed as well...and he spent the day alone chasing and outside his comfort zone.

And they were never gonna dq 90+ riders...it often happens in the giro and tour where you get 12-15 over the limit and they get to stay in. Theres a precedent already, whether that is correct is a different matter, starting to enforce it by throwing out 90 riders is a bit harsh imo. should be a directive from the top at the start of the season that it will be rigidly enforced, and only exceptions are massive crashes

Wow what an exciting stage that was.

irishrover99

smurphy29 wrote: »

Hmmm, it certainly was remarkable how he managed to limit his losses today, for sure. Having the best paid domestiques in the world is certainly a help, and being able to give them the afternoon off so they can saunter in 55 minutes down on their sunday spin while buying another expensive team's services for the day is even better. Not sure how admirable it is though!

Having the best paid domestiques on his team is not his fault, thats the whole point of a team.
Did you want all the riders thrown out of the race that were over the time limit. It happens in all grand tours and its only today because sky had a majority of riders in it that its getting so much attention.
As for borrowing another teams services, Astana and Orica have top 10 and podium hopes too so should we blame him for wheel sucking all day. Stop being a begrudger and give the man at least a bit of credit.

ThisRegard

Andalucia wrote: »

No, but whats the point of any rules if its going to be subjective enforcement

a few years ago the Ras had to eliminate a bunch of around 20, mostly county riders - enforcement of rules should be consistent - they obviously sat up today because they knew they wouldn't get DQ'd

As others have said though, in the pro peloton you'll often get a big group of riders stick together if they think they'll be outside the limit, usually in the mountain stages, safe in the knowledge the organisers may take into account an unexpected tough or fast day, and won't disqualify them. Nothing to do with Sky.

pelevin

On the one hand the race organisers are in a fairly impossible position having to deal with 90 or so riders over the limit - impossible in the sense of eliminating all of them. Otoh in a 110km stage it's a joke that they could get to ride that way, coming in nearly an hour down, close to twice the cut-off limit. Maybe as the stage was unfolding the organisers could have tried to put a gun to their heads, and say look, however many of you there are, we will seriously cull you if you continue to ride like this. Even a lottery of half your numbers chucked out.

Whatever way you look at it it's farcical. For riders who actually put in a really hard day yday to be punished physically when compared to these sauntering in nearly an hour down, & obviously the guys who partook in a race rather than a spin from A to B quite a bit more drained when still plenty of the race to go.

smurphy29

irishrover99 wrote: »

Having the best paid domestiques on his team is not his fault, thats the whole point of a team.
Did you want all the riders thrown out of the race that were over the time limit. It happens in all grand tours and its only today because sky had a majority of riders in it that its getting so much attention.
As for borrowing another teams services, Astana and Orica have top 10 and podium hopes too so should we blame him for wheel sucking all day. Stop being a begrudger and give the man at least a bit of credit.

Froome obviously deserves immense credit for his multiple achievements. But I was responding to a post claiming to be in awe of how Froome manages to limit his losses in adversity. It's just a curious day to be making such claims.

Whatever about Orica, who were 3rd and 4th on GC and were obviously incentivised to ride, if you think Astana were happy to burn up quality riders like Zeits and Grivko to defend Scarponi's ninth place you are very naive. Almost all commentators have raised an eyebrow at that one.

This from Velonews: "Froome kept tamping away, and with the help of Orica – BikeExchange and Astana (riding, according to them, to protect Michele Scarponi’s top 10), trimmed the gap to about 1:30 coming into the final grind up to the Formigal summit."

It beggars belief that a team would commit such resources to defend such a position.

I also find the time cut ruling deeply unsatisfactory. It's one thing to miss the cut by minutes on a day when crashes hold up the peloton or whatever, but rolling in over 50 minutes down indicates the riders were not respecting the race, or the rules, such as they are. What if Sky's refreshed riders decide to use their day off to their advatage to ambush the race today? It would raise a lot of questions.

Macy0161

Contador, dodgy past or not, is a legend of this sport. People who ask why some convicted dopers are forgiven and others not, should just be given a copy of this stage. Commentators have gone on about damaging his legacy carrying on when he may not be capable of winning a Grand Tour - well days like today only enhance it even if he has been eclipsed!

Interesting seeing the analysis from Millar on ITV, highlighting how asleep Sky were even in the neutral zone - all of Tinkoff at the front waiting for the flag to drop.

I really don't like Sky, but the whole point of the l'autobus/ grupetto is strength in numbers to avoid time elimination (either by making the time cut or being too large a number). Nothing to do with Sky or anyone else. The whole direct energie team were in it I think!

Also, Valverde has gone up in my estimation a bit - I didn't think he'd have it in him to sit on and protect a team mate like that!

And finally, f**k Astana.

MPFGLB

mhiggy09 wrote: »

The one day I miss highlights.

Here you go (in Spanish)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcD24uBIZ7Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0qQoy7J7zo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njse0efx338


What I woud say is Contador was brilliant
SKY doms chasing back were pretty poor

Froome did great to limit his losses is a starnge comment and what Carlton Kirby kept saying ...he had 2 doms in the second group and they worked (not very effectively) but worked. Froome unlike Quintana & Contador & Simon Yates did not work. So today SKY have rested doms and a leader who did less than Quintana, Contdor & S Yates. Yes it was difficult mentally for Froome but it was difficult for all GC riders even Scarponi

Secondly very poor tactics by SKY not to slow down fpr the 3rd group initally when only seconds between them ....Puccio & Lopez should have waited
Instead after a few minutes Movistar & Valverde speeded up to drop 3rd group even more

As for the 90 riders...I guess someone in there will win today and quite righly other riders are/will be pisssed. They needed to be handicaped in someway and the points deducation is meaningless

Maybe give every one else a 5 minute start

Brian?

smurphy29 wrote: »

Froome obviously deserves immense credit for his multiple achievements. But I was responding to a post claiming to be in awe of how Froome manages to limit his losses in adversity. It's just a curious day to be making such claims.

Whatever about Orica, who were 3rd and 4th on GC and were obviously incentivised to ride, if you think Astana were happy to burn up quality riders like Zeits and Grivko to defend Scarponi's ninth place you are very naive. Almost all commentators have raised an eyebrow at that one.

This from Velonews: "Froome kept tamping away, and with the help of Orica – BikeExchange and Astana (riding, according to them, to protect Michele Scarponi’s top 10), trimmed the gap to about 1:30 coming into the final grind up to the Formigal summit."

It beggars belief that a team would commit such resources to defend such a position.

I also find the time cut ruling deeply unsatisfactory. It's one thing to miss the cut by minutes on a day when crashes hold up the peloton or whatever, but rolling in over 50 minutes down indicates the riders were not respecting the race, or the rules, such as they are. What if Sky's refreshed riders decide to use their day off to their advatage to ambush the race today? It would raise a lot of questions.

Astana were not riding for Scarponi or because they were bribed(as suggested earlier), my belief is that they were chasing Contador because Vino has a huge grudge against Contador.

Las year they attacked him when he had a mechanical and was in pink in the Giro. And he demolished them single handily. There's bad blood there from Contador's time at Astana.

I could be wrong. But it's the only explanation I can think of.

Brian?

MPFGLB wrote: »

Here you go (in Spanish)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcD24uBIZ7Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0qQoy7J7zo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njse0efx338


What I woud say is Contador was brilliant
SKY doms chasing back were pretty poor

Froome did great to limit his losses is a starnge comment and what Carlton Kirby kept saying ...he had 2 doms in the second group and they worked (not very effectively) but worked. Froome unlike Quintana & Contador & Simon Yates did not work. So today SKY have rested doms and a leader who did less than Quintana, Contdor & S Yates. Yes it was difficult mentally for Froome but it was difficult for all GC riders even Scarponi

Secondly very poor tactics by SKY not to slow down fpr the 3rd group initally when only seconds between them ....Puccio & Lopez should have waited
Instead after a few minutes Movistar & Valverde speeded up to drop 3rd group even more

As for the 90 riders...I guess someone in there will win today and quite righly other riders are/will be pisssed. They needed to be handicaped in someway and the points deducation is meaningless

Maybe give every one else a 5 minute start

Sorry, but if Froome had have waited for the rest of his team then Orica and Movistar would have driven the second group away from him. He would have lost his podium place and probably in excess of 5 minutes. Probably more actually.

Once he's missed the initial move, Froome actually rode a pretty smart race. Waiting would have been the end of his podium chances.

MediaMan

Bakelants of AG2R not shy about expressing his views on the non-DQ of the late finishers: https://twitter.com/Jan_Bakelants/status/772476420291457024?lang=en

Laura interviewed him on Eurosport earlier and he reiterated the point.

They also interviewed the chief comm, and if Carlton Kirby's translation is to be trusted, as well as the decision being "for the good of cycling", he said that the sponsors would have gone beserk if entire teams were DQ'ed. Not very fair but it's the harsh economics of cycling I guess...

rochefan

Macy0161 wrote: »

Contador, dodgy past or not, is a legend of this sport. People who ask why some convicted dopers are forgiven and others not, should just be given a copy of this stage. Commentators have gone on about damaging his legacy carrying on when he may not be capable of winning a Grand Tour - well days like today only enhance it even if he has been eclipsed!

Interesting seeing the analysis from Millar on ITV, highlighting how asleep Sky were even in the neutral zone - all of Tinkoff at the front waiting for the flag to drop.

I really don't like Sky, but the whole point of the l'autobus/ grupetto is strength in numbers to avoid time elimination (either by making the time cut or being too large a number). Nothing to do with Sky or anyone else. The whole direct energie team were in it I think!

Also, Valverde has gone up in my estimation a bit - I didn't think he'd have it in him to sit on and protect a team mate like that!

And finally, f**k Astana.

Great stage to watch.
What Millar said is correct, whole team and in particular Froome should have been near the front. On Team sky website the DS said Froome was held up by a crash, this wasn't on TV and hasn't I believe been reported anywhere else. That might explain why Froome was struggling to get onto the back of the 2nd group

TheBlaaMan

rochefan wrote: »

Great stage to watch.
What Millar said is correct, whole team and in particular Froome should have been near the front. On Team sky website the DS said Froome was held up by a crash, this wasn't on TV and hasn't I believe been reported anywhere else. That might explain why Froome was struggling to get onto the back of the 2nd group

The full start of the stage, including the 15m neutralised section while leaving the depart town are here.......https://t.co/nEMp3ZIGV5
I didnt watch it all last night, but see no sign of a crash that would have delayed Froome. He can be seen loitering halfway down the pack as the flag drops and his team are all over the place talking with other riders. Methinks they went asleep....

smurphy29

Brian? wrote: »

Astana were not riding for Scarponi or because they were bribed(as suggested earlier), my belief is that they were chasing Contador because Vino has a huge grudge against Contador.

Las year they attacked him when he had a mechanical and was in pink in the Giro. And he demolished them single handily. There's bad blood there from Contador's time at Astana.

I could be wrong. But it's the only explanation I can think of.

https://audioboom.com/boos/5010478-vuelta-stage-15

You can hear what Steven de Jong makes of it on the podcast here: 'We don't have the budget to do that'.

gordongekko

It's always worth reminding everyone that sky are all about the marginal gains.

retalivity

gordongekko wrote: »

It's always worth reminding everyone that sky are all about the marginal gains.

Sky may have studied marginal gains but they appear to have overlooked substantial losses.

/Shamelessly robbed from elsewhere

Kaisr Sose

When you see guys getting eliminated for only a few seconds you really have to question the fairness of yesterday's decision. See here where cycling official an showed no discretion!

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/voigt-riders-wanted-time-cut-king-to-stay-in-the-tour-de-france_293413

Gotta feel for the guy eliminated by just 7sec!

In my opinion, it's up to the sponsors to deal with the DS's over the poor performance of their riders — not for the UCI to decide to preempt that by overruling the written rule of the sport. That there were so many SKY riders in the groupetto makes no sense. Unless of course, they were told not to bother - we have another innovative marginal gain to deploy.

Itziger

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

The full start of the stage, including the 15m neutralised section while leaving the depart town are here.......https://t.co/nEMp3ZIGV5
I didnt watch it all last night, but see no sign of a crash that would have delayed Froome. He can be seen loitering halfway down the pack as the flag drops and his team are all over the place talking with other riders. Methinks they went asleep....

Fantastic stuff, only seeing this now and I had to stop at km 99 (to go) to comment. What race strategy from Movistar. Superb. With their man up ahead they attack Froome and the Sky lads to drop the two domestiques. Brilliant. Most would think, never attack when your leader is up the road and his arch enemy is in our group, but not so. Great gamble there. Recommended viewing this for any would be DS!!

It helps a little that I understand Spanish. Perico said at the beginning that he thought nothing would happen till much nearer then end! But he takes it on the chin and was joking at his own expense a little later.

pelevin

I watched a good bit of this again last night and like MPFGLB have to say I'd also find praise for Froome for his performance in this stage to be strange. Contador particularly obviously put himself to the fore making it all happen initially but also taking his turns in the human chain of the break afterwards as did Quintana & all other riders there. Froome however in that crucial early period absolutely refused to ever help other riders, like his own teammates, to try to close things down - a vibe of "I'm the team leader & so I only ever come to the front to attack." To me that's something very lacking in a champion in the highest sense. Imagine Merckx but also plenty others in such a situation where a grand tour is on the line, and his only 'action' is to talk on the radio. If for whatever reason in that crucial first third of the stage Froome did find himself at teh front - because say of following a Movistar disrupting 'attack', he would instantly slow and pull off to the side as if this would be something awful to take a turn, that this was absolutely not his job.

There can obviously be well over the top criticism of Sky but there can be the flip side of that too with bias in the opposite positive sense, and for me comparing how the big 3 rode that stage is virtually night and day. Quintana had done far more work than Froome who only came to the front very late on, and yet Quintana's efforts in the last 20kms or so were far superior to Froome's - who looked like his body reacted poorly in reaction to the stress of the day. That brings to mind by comparison Contador in last year's Giro after Astana drove on after his mechanical - the composure with which he dealt with events was absolute class, chasing, catching & even dropping Aru though the stronger Landa winning the stage.

Froome limiting his losses on this Vuelta stage was almost wholly down to the actions of others like Orica & Astana riders - whyever Astana were pushing - and his own performance was not impressive.

pelevin

Really good piece on the stage here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/vuelta-a-espana-how-quintana-and-contador-tore-up-the-script/

Contador really comes across well, & just to extract a little. '"Alberto and Castroviejo did most of the work in the break itself, but it was Alberto who organised it all, who started it off and it was simply up to us to follow him. He was the one who really dealt with it all," Omar Fraile said.
The lead, in the first kilometres, stretched very fast, to almost two minutes. Contador, much more active than Quintana, could be seen riding up and down the length of the break, egging the riders on and himself taking big turns at the front.
De la Cruz also in the break: "Contador was really interested, and he commands a lot of respect. Whenever he talks, people tend to listen and act as a unit . He talked to absolutely everybody, insisting that it could work out, he was really the guy who sorted things out in the first part of the stage."'

L'Enfer du Nord

Just wondering how rare stages like this really are. I know its very rare for tactics like this to be successful, but how often are they attempted? Similar if less extreme things sometimes happen on crosswind stages. I don't watch a huge amount of live cycling but I think I some times read about X team trying to mix-it up in the first half of a stage. Failed attempts at this seldom make it into the highlights.

Finally manged to watch the opening parts of the stage, what ever about Froome, the rest of Sky were poor. Isolating Froome further after the initial gap was a master stroke. I'm afraid I think the main reason why La Vuelta and Il Giro are more exciting than the tour is that the vast majority of riders and teams come to the Tour in top form and at full strength. Not true in the other two grand tours, as a result weaknesses in riders and particularly teams are more easily exposed and the racing is less controlled. Not sure anything can be done about this as long as the Tour is the premier race.