Should the foreigner rule be re-introduced in club football?

holy guacamole

Was just reading David Walsh in The Sunday Times and saw that out of the £1.2 billion spent by PL clubs there were only two English signings: Stones and Holding.

Obviously this is having a huge impact on the English national side and while it's unlikely that too many on here will be overly concerned about how Big Sam's boys fare in the coming years this raises serious issues throughout football, issues that imo need to be addressed.

A few years the 6+5 rule was dismissed as it was deemed a breach of EU labour laws. But given the parlous state of the EU at the moment and Britain's intention to leave it this is a rule that could be re-examined.

Again you might say how does it affect us as Irish people? But regardless of your nationality there's a special kind of excitement in seeing young local lads break through at the top clubs in England.

Our own place in such a ruling would be complicated, young Irish players would be considered foreigners and therefore face the same kind of problems in breaking through as they currently do.

Seems unlikely that such a ruling will be put in place but just wondered how others feel about the topic and whether anyone had suggestions about how to address the issue.

brevity

I'm always reluctant to blame problems on foreigners.

As I see it, coaching system needs an overhaul and how players are loaned out needs to be examined as well.

Dirty Dingus McGee

It would be great if it happened as it make European and domestic football across Europe much more competitive but there isn't a hope of it returning as thing shave gone too far in the other direction now.

LeBash

The cost of English players is way off the mark against similar tallent from abroad, especially if they have caps. I think that is the biggest single reason teams look abroad. I've no idea how that could be fixed.

Then the young English players at clubs find it hard to get a look in against the 20 million signing.

Harry Palmr

David Walsh should do better research

Jordon Ibe, Lewis Cook, Rob Holding, John Stones, James Tomkins, Andros Townsend, Will Keane, Ryan Mason, Nathan Redmond, Paddy McNair, Jerome Sinclair (tribunal fee)

holy guacamole

Harry Palmr wrote: »

David Walsh should do better research

Jordon Ibe, Rob Holding, John Stones, James Tomkins, Andros Townsend, Will Keane, Ryan Mason, Nathan Redmond, Paddy McNair, Jerome Sinclair (tribunal fee)

Sloppy on his behalf.

Still though, even with those extra names the English/British players represent a tiny fraction of those being bought.

Harry Palmr

Sure, but accuracy helps when making an argument that's supposed to be compelling.

Jimbob1977

Will Brexit affect the Bosman ruling? If the rule is EU based, it will become redundant.

However, a British club won't cut off its nose to spite its face. The best players are foreign.

Man City wouldn't wish to face a Juventus team that was littered with foreign stars... while City are hamstrung by having a quota of English players.

Imagine returning to Manchester United in 1994 when there was the foreigners rule. Gary Walsh standing in for Peter Schmeichel. Being humiliated in the Nou Camp.

The UK and Ireland simply cannot produce the calibre of player anymore (with some exceptions).

yupya1

I definitely think it should not be brought back.
It is not the premier league club's job to produce players for England. The premier league monster should be viewed as a stand alone world league cos that's almost what it is now. (Which is great for us fans and the clubs)

I don't necessarily agree it's is having such a big negitive impact on England's team anyway. They were terrible when these rules were in and show more consistency in at least qualifying these days. Maybe playing with different players and their superior technique and preparing methods has helped them?

Lastly with the influx of the best players in the world etc raised standards throughout the leagues in England. I.e championship clubs have to be better to try and get/stay in the premier league and so on and these leagues are full of English players.
The championship is probably of a similar standard to the 80s division 1 anyway so no real difference there for English players. Their failures are in their heads!
My two cents anyway

holy guacamole

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Will Brexit affect the Bosman ruling? If the rule is EU based, it will become redundant.

However, a British club won't cut off its nose to spite its face. The best players are foreign.

Man City wouldn't wish to face a Juventus team that was littered with foreign stars... while City are hamstrung by having a quota of English players.

Imagine returning to Manchester United in 1994 when there was the foreigners rule. Gary Walsh standing in for Peter Schmeichel. Being humiliated in the Nou Camp.

The UK and Ireland simply cannot produce the calibre of player anymore (with some exceptions).

I was thinking of United's early travails in the CL when I started this thread. Think the difference between that ruling and the 6+5 one are marked though. Back then you could only play three foreigners in Europe and two Irish, Welsh or Scots who were considered assimilated players.

The 6+5 rule should, in theory, ensure that English clubs can still buy the best foreign players available while maintaining a core home identity. You're right though, the PL would never agree to such a ruling being implemented unless it was done across all of Europe's top leagues.

GLaDOS

Of last years top 4, only Spurs wouldn't massively effected by a 6 + 5 rule. Be quite funny to see though!

Since the Bosman ruling there have been 5 World Cups.

4 won by European countries.

ERG89

You can see the countries that over rely on foreign players domestically. The English national team is very ordinary even compared to 10 years ago it's declined massively imo. If they'd a quota the club's might have to start producing players again which has stopped happening. Russia too is a league that suffered bringing in foreigners.

Francie Barrett

ERG89 wrote: »

The English national team is very ordinary even compared to 10 years ago it's declined massively imo.

Really? I look at the team put out against Slovakia and technically speaking at least, it's the best I have seen in my memory.

ERG89

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Really? I look at the team put out against Slovakia and technically speaking at least, it's the best I have seen in my memory.

10-15 years ago they had Owen, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Terry, Rooney, Campbell, Cole, Ferdinand, Beckham. Most of them were playing at the top level, doing well & winning the champions league. Who is doing that now? City made it but there wasn't anything British about that & more down to PSG than Man City.

Mr.Nice Guy

Yes there should be a rule like the 6+5 idea but it won't fly as it would rock the gravy train, and the Premier League's main focus is on fattening their already bloated wallets rather than looking at ways to foster the development of domestic players. It will be interesting to see if Brexit has any effect, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I don't think this bodes well for Ireland which has traditionally relied on being an export market to the UK, especially England. Because of the massive money there now, we are seeing such a significant influx of quality players from the continent that even the Championship is swelling with quality arrivals. Look at the number of top class Portuguese talent that has agreed to go to England's second tier in the recent window. Something unthinkable a decade ago.

It will mean it will be even harder ten years from now for Irish players to break into English teams. Consider how many Irish players currently feature for top ten PL sides? Very few. With massive money continuing to pump into that league it is only a matter of time before that slow creep continues and it will then become hard for any Irish players to feature in the league full stop, imo.

I can see a situation where Scotland winds up featuring a lot more Irish players a decade from now as I think the English market will be too tough to break into. Sure they will continue to scout here, and the occasional gem will break through, but those that do not will have to look elsewhere. When Robbie Brady left Man United he had Hull there as an option to take him on and let him develop into a much better player. It's hard for me to see a situation like that happening in the years to come since a club like Hull would have the money to look to a place like Portugal for an already established talent. That's why I think an Irish player in that situation will wind up considering Scotland, or if they're more adventurous, maybe a move to France.

The LOI could be a solution too, and we may well see more players staying put and Irish managers looking to the league for call-ups. Perhaps that could benefit the local scene. But young players and their families are going to want to go where the money is, so I think it's more likely many promising talents will wind up as squad members of English clubs - taking decent money but playing very little. I can't see how that benefits the national side.

The choice Irish football has over the next decade, assuming the UK continues to look to the continent, is whether we want to continue to be an export market, or whether we are going to start looking to our domestic resources. If it's the former, then we should consider striking up new connections and associations with the continent itself and see if we can increase the opportunities for players to go further afield for their football education; if/when Brexit goes ahead, continental clubs may find it worthwhile forging closer ties to the Irish scene. If it's the latter choice and we want to look to our domestic resources, then more money will need to be allocated to the local game, better standards of coaching will need to be put in place, and the league itself will need to be promoted much better by the FAI. None of which has happened or seems likely to happen.

Whatever the direction over the next decade, it looks like Irish football is facing massive challenges. With the FAI not looking remotely prepared for any of this, effectively the future of Irish football is in the hands of the Football Association of England.

ziggyman17

thats what International Football is for..............through out the years most of the top clubs greatest ever players came from other countries..........

alchemist33

Things that are always blamed on foreign players:
Diving
England being cr@p



Things that existed in England before the Premier League and the foreigners came:
Diving
England being cr@p

holy guacamole

I think those saying that England are as good/bad as they ever were and that this team is no different to those in the past need to look at their performances in major tournaments in recent years.

Whereas they were World Cup semi-finalists in 1990, European Championship semi-finalists in 1996 and were consistent quarter-finalists thereafter, they've only made the quarter-finals in one of their last four tournaments.

The rot hasn't quite set in for them just yet, but it's only a matter of time and it will be hastened by the mass influx of foreign players which is increasing on a yearly basis.

atilladehun

England did not qualify for the 74, 78 and 94 world cups. They didnt qualify for the 64, 72, 76 and 84 euros. In the 88 & 92 euros they finished 7th out of 8.

Theyve always been bad at tournament football. Nostalgia just blocks that for most presenters and former players.

They've had some good runs and one great run which includes robbing the south americans.

I think they're consistently better now then they've ever been.

8-10

holy guacamole wrote: »

Was just reading David Walsh in The Sunday Times and saw that out of the £1.2 billion spent by PL clubs there were only two English signings: Stones and Holding.

I had to get the paper and read the article through because that looked like shoddy research. It looks like he tried to qualify saying that in the previous paragraph by saying that there were a lack of English signings by the biggest clubs.

However if that was his argument, he should have listed those clubs he was talking about and only given the figure for their portion of the £1.2bn.

If he wanted to pain the picture in terms of the full £1.2bn (from all 20 clubs), he has to consider all English players from all 20 clubs.

I see the point he is attempting to make, but we all know that the majority of signings are foreign these days, so he shouldn't have to fudge the numbers. If he just did a smidge more research he would be able to make the case easily - and accurately.

Lazy.

Fr Tod Umptious

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yes there should be a rule like the 6+5 idea but it won't fly as it would rock the gravy train, and the Premier League's main focus is on fattening their already bloated wallets rather than looking at ways to foster the development of domestic players. It will be interesting to see if Brexit has any effect, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I don't think this bodes well for Ireland which has traditionally relied on being an export market to the UK, especially England. Because of the massive money there now, we are seeing such a significant influx of quality players from the continent that even the Championship is swelling with quality arrivals. Look at the number of top class Portuguese talent that has agreed to go to England's second tier in the recent window. Something unthinkable a decade ago.

It will mean it will be even harder ten years from now for Irish players to break into English teams. Consider how many Irish players currently feature for top ten PL sides? Very few. With massive money continuing to pump into that league it is only a matter of time before that slow creep continues and it will then become hard for any Irish players to feature in the league full stop, imo.

I can see a situation where Scotland winds up featuring a lot more Irish players a decade from now as I think the English market will be too tough to break into. Sure they will continue to scout here, and the occasional gem will break through, but those that do not will have to look elsewhere. When Robbie Brady left Man United he had Hull there as an option to take him on and let him develop into a much better player. It's hard for me to see a situation like that happening in the years to come since a club like Hull would have the money to look to a place like Portugal for an already established talent. That's why I think an Irish player in that situation will wind up considering Scotland, or if they're more adventurous, maybe a move to France.

The LOI could be a solution too, and we may well see more players staying put and Irish managers looking to the league for call-ups. Perhaps that could benefit the local scene. But young players and their families are going to want to go where the money is, so I think it's more likely many promising talents will wind up as squad members of English clubs - taking decent money but playing very little. I can't see how that benefits the national side.

The choice Irish football has over the next decade, assuming the UK continues to look to the continent, is whether we want to continue to be an export market, or whether we are going to start looking to our domestic resources. If it's the former, then we should consider striking up new connections and associations with the continent itself and see if we can increase the opportunities for players to go further afield for their football education; if/when Brexit goes ahead, continental clubs may find it worthwhile forging closer ties to the Irish scene. If it's the latter choice and we want to look to our domestic resources, then more money will need to be allocated to the local game, better standards of coaching will need to be put in place, and the league itself will need to be promoted much better by the FAI. None of which has happened or seems likely to happen.

Whatever the direction over the next decade, it looks like Irish football is facing massive challenges. With the FAI not looking remotely prepared for any of this, effectively the future of Irish football is in the hands of the Football Association of England.

Marginalisation of Irish players has been going on for years.

On 26th May 1989 five Republic of Ireland played in a championship deciding game.

How many have won titles since ?

Korat

Now that they're leaving the EU they can impose restrictions on EU players if they want. I can't see them doing it though because football is something the people who voted for Brexit actually care about.

8-10

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Marginalisation of Irish players has been going on for years.

On 26th May 1989 five Republic of Ireland played in a championship deciding game.

How many have won titles since ?

Of those 5, only 1 won the title that year.

Since that day I make it 10 Irish players have won the title 27 times between them

keeponhurling

8-10 wrote: »

Of those 5, only 1 won the title that year.

Since that day I make it 10 Irish players have won the title 27 times between them

challenge accepted !

Roy Keane
Denis Irwin
John O'Shea
Damien Duff
Jeff Kenna
Ray Houghton ?
Ronnie whelan ?
John Aldridge ?
Steve Staunton ?.....

still missing one

ArmaniJeanss

keeponhurling wrote: »

challenge accepted !

Roy Keane
Denis Irwin
John O'Shea
Damien Duff
Jeff Kenna
Ray Houghton ?
Ronnie whelan ?
John Aldridge ?
Steve Staunton ?.....

still missing one

Miller or Gibson get a jammy one when with MUFC?
Gary Kelly for Leeds also?

keeponhurling

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Miller or Gibson get a jammy one when with MUFC?

Good shout, accoridng to wiki it seems that Gibbo got one, 2010-11, played 12 games

bucketybuck

Jonny Evans.

8-10

I didn't count Gibson but makes sense! O'Leary won in 1991

Pepe LeFrits

I’m always baffled when rules like these are floated (and particularly when it's ex-pros doing it), given they run counter to one of the most basic, self-evident ideas of sport: competition forces you to improve.

There aren’t enough English players in the top flight because there are too few English players of sufficient quality, so the solution to improving them is… to make the competition weaker? What?

If the talent was there, they’d break into the teams in the PL. Or if the talent was there but being ignored by the PL clubs, teams coming up from the Championship would reap the rewards. Either way the players who are good enough get recognised. Quotas are nonsense.

Gbear

There may be an element of players not getting their chance but I think the bigger issue is that at a young age there aren't enough talented English lads with the requisite skill sets being nurtured.

The premier league have outsourced the creativity and quality on the ball to foreigners, primarily because they've had to.

Even when you look at the top class English players from the past twenty years, they've tended to be technically worse than their European counterparts, especially in terms of their short game.
Players like Gerrard or Rooney wouldn't have been anything special if they weren't also incredible athletes and perhaps explains Rooney's relative decline and how much Gerrard's game suffered because he couldn't shoot the same way after his serious thigh injury in 11/12.
Now you have Sterling as well - another whose key attributes are physical rather than technical.

The thing is, most of the team seems to be Spurs and Liverpool, which may be indicative of a lack of quality, but it's also the case that those two sides use these lads in a way that makes use of their physical qualities.
If these players are outrunning their opposition every week then perhaps that's what England should be up to as well?

Apparently, England were only the 9th furthest running team at the Euros:
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/news/newsid=2383652.html

Italy took that approach because by their standards it wasn't the most talented team, but I'm quite sure it was still a lot more talented from a technical perspective than Englands.
Germany did as well and they're probably the best team in the world at the moment. It's clearly not an either or thing where you have to give up on working hard as your ability increases.

England could perhaps do better by being more aggressive off the ball, playing more reactive football, but I definitely think, after all the waffle they do about grassroots, that they're not fostering the attitudes needed at youth levels to get the right standard of technical footballer.

eagle eye

I think when you add English players to these players you still have a very good team.

United: De Gea, Bailly, Pogba, Mkhitaryan and Ibra.

Chelsea: Hazard, Costa, Willian, Courtois and Kante.

Liverpool: Coutinho, Mane, Karius, Can and Firminho.

Spurs: Loris, Alderweireld, Dembele, Sissoko, Eriksen

8-10

eagle eye wrote: »

Liverpool: Coutinho, Mane, Klavan, Can and Firminho.

Why Klavan? He's a backup CB as it is and if Joe Gomez recovers well I'd hope he'd be an English player ahead of him.

eagle eye

8-10 wrote: »

Why Klavan? He's a backup CB as it is and if Joe Gomez recovers well I'd hope he'd be an English player ahead of him.

I don't know how I put in Klavan, it was meant to be Karius. I know Karius has not played in the EPL yet but he is a serious keeper so I'd include him as one of the five foreigners.

8-10

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't know how I put in Klavan, it was meant to be Karius. I know Karius has not played in the EPL yet but he is a serious keeper so I'd include him as one of the five foreigners.

Ah ok sorry gotcha, that makes sense to me alright.

Richard Hillman

One of the better things about the foreigner rule is that it preserves a national style of play. Back in even the 90s counties had a distinct style of play from the slow paced Italian game to Englands hustle and bustle.

Looking at Euro2016, England have completely lost their identity in terms of footballing style. Foreign coaches and hipster managers are part of the blame but without the players they wouldn't be able to implement it at club level.