Homelessness on the rise

Wanderer78

The_Conductor wrote:

This whole concept of 'forever homes' and organisations telling people how to play the system to jump ahead of the truly needy in society- is abhorrent and immoral- but its the way Irish society is- and if you try to call it for what it is- you are painted as worse than Hitler and made out to be some raving right-wing nut.

Again, the root causes of our current housing and homeless crisis is deep systematic failures, largely due to the construct we call 'the market', which in fact is 'not' capable of providing us with our actual needs, one of the main being housing!

The_Conductor

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Again, the root causes of our current housing and homeless crisis is deep systematic failures, largely due to the construct we call 'the market', which in fact is 'not' capable of providing us with our actual needs, one of the main being housing!

I'd argue that the issue is not 'the market' as you put it- rather, a political decision on the part of the government to allow local authorities divest of their housing units- without any reciprochal obligation to replace any units they sold- all the while abdicating their responsibility- and it is a responsibility- to house its people- to a private sector not setup to do so- who did not and do not want the task. So- to engage with the private sector- and force them to supply the social housing units that the government no longer oblige the local authorities to- their only answer is to throw money at it- in the knowledge that at least in the case of small scale landlords- they'll get half it back in taxes and charges.

It makes perfect sense to abdicate responsibility to the private sector- as there is a scape goat for whenever anything goes titsup- and no obvious responsibility for anything.............

In short- its a solution- that insulates politicians from having to take responsibility or action.

Wanderer78

The_Conductor wrote:

I'd argue that the issue is not 'the market' as you put it- rather, a political decision on the part of the government to allow local authorities divest of their housing units- without any reciprochal obligation to replace any units they sold- all the while abdicating their responsibility- and it is a responsibility- to house its people- to a private sector not setup to do so- who did not and do not want the task. So- to engage with the private sector- and force them to supply the social housing units that the government no longer oblige the local authorities to- their only answer is to throw money at it- in the knowledge that at least in the case of small scale landlords- they'll get half it back in taxes and charges.

Ah yes, it's the fault of the government, I'm sorry but neoclassical theory is a bust, and the longer we play this game, the more complicated the outcome becomes, effectively leading to everyone getting screwed including landlords. It's important to realise, our political institutions have become deeply infected with this disease

Vizzy

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd argue that the issue is not 'the market' as you put it- rather, a political decision on the part of the government to allow local authorities divest of their housing units- without any reciprochal obligation to replace any units they sold- all the while abdicating their responsibility- and it is a responsibility- to house its people- to a private sector not setup to do so- who did not and do not want the task. So- to engage with the private sector- and force them to supply the social housing units that the government no longer oblige the local authorities to- their only answer is to throw money at it- in the knowledge that at least in the case of small scale landlords- they'll get half it back in taxes and charges.

It makes perfect sense to abdicate responsibility to the private sector- as there is a scape goat for whenever anything goes titsup- and no obvious responsibility for anything.............

In short- its a solution- that insulates politicians from having to take responsibility or action.

This is not a decision that "allows" Local Authorities to make houses available to purchase - they are obliged to do so.
And to compound the problem, a person can be offered a house today, live in it for 12 months and then purchase it for a fraction of the price paid for it only 12 months previously.
As regards homelessness ( or perceived homelessness) I agree with your previous comments that there is a whole industry, both actual and political who are actually benefitting from the "homeless crisis" to the detriment of "actual" homeless individuals.

Wheeliebin30

The_Conductor wrote: »

Maryanne- I agree 100% with you.
It 100% definitely *is* those who can't find a hostel- or for whatever reason- would rather sleep rough- than in a hostel- who need to be focused on.:
This whole 'forever home' lark- has gone too far.
The whole 'homeless' industry- has become a self-supporting industry.
There are some very good people out there (running soup kitchens, shelters and providing some basic care for the genuine homeless)- and then there is a whole industry setup to help people get a 'forever home' where-ever they want it- on their terms- who are now trying to spin a tale that people who are living with their parents- are homeless too- and should be included in the statistics.

The Irish system- is a glorified parish pump system- and whoever shouts loudest and elbows their way to the front of the queue- gets whatever it is they're looking for- everyone else, especially the remarkably hard hammered tax payer- be damned.

We do have a homeless problem- those who are in need of our help the greatest- mostly have addiction and/or mental health issues.

This whole concept of 'forever homes' and organisations telling people how to play the system to jump ahead of the truly needy in society- is abhorrent and immoral- but its the way Irish society is- and if you try to call it for what it is- you are painted as worse than Hitler and made out to be some raving right-wing nut.

The latest wheeze- whereby anyone living at home with their parents gets incremented onto the homeless figure- is just the latest in a long chain of outlandish claims- which are detracting from investing money in addiction care and mental health services- which in my mind- is where we should be focusing.

I'm both proud and ashamed of many things in Ireland- and we have made much progress as a society in the last 30 years- however, we have singularly failed to make any progress in dismantling the parish-pump political system that is the ruin of us.

Ah the hidden homeless.

Remember leo said ireland is low compared to other countries homeless numbers.

The opposition had a fit and pulled out this hidden homeless nonsense??

And they accuse Leo of spin.....

Graces7

The_Conductor wrote: »

Maryanne- I agree 100% with you.
It 100% definitely *is* those who can't find a hostel- or for whatever reason- would rather sleep rough- than in a hostel- who need to be focused on.
This whole 'forever home' lark- has gone too far.
The whole 'homeless' industry- has become a self-supporting industry.
There are some very good people out there (running soup kitchens, shelters and providing some basic care for the genuine homeless)- and then there is a whole industry setup to help people get a 'forever home' where-ever they want it- on their terms- who are now trying to spin a tale that people who are living with their parents- are homeless too- and should be included in the statistics.

The Irish system- is a glorified parish pump system- and whoever shouts loudest and elbows their way to the front of the queue- gets whatever it is they're looking for- everyone else, especially the remarkably hard hammered tax payer- be damned.

We do have a homeless problem- those who are in need of our help the greatest- mostly have addiction and/or mental health issues.

This whole concept of 'forever homes' and organisations telling people how to play the system to jump ahead of the truly needy in society- is abhorrent and immoral- but its the way Irish society is- and if you try to call it for what it is- you are painted as worse than Hitler and made out to be some raving right-wing nut.

The latest wheeze- whereby anyone living at home with their parents gets
incremented onto the homeless figure- is just the latest in a long chain of outlandish claims- which are detracting from investing money in addiction care and mental health services- which in my mind- is where we should be focusing.

I'm both proud and ashamed of many things in Ireland- and we have made much progress as a society in the last 30 years- however, we have singularly failed to make any progress in dismantling the parish-pump political system that is the ruin of us.

Thanks for this. I have family working with the homeless in Canad and they speak as you do . HOMELESS there means living on the streets and they have nearly 3 million of these there and many families living in cars.. One relative says. "They "( the hotel dwellers) have a roof over their head. They have heating and food... They are not homeless."

Graces7

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Ah the hidden homeless.

Remember leo said ireland is low compared to other countries homeless numbers.

The opposition had a fit and pulled out this hidden homeless nonsense??

And they accuse Leo of spin.....

Needs to go to Greece for example,

Graces7

Just seen this

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/calls-for-system-review-of-homelessness-after-death-of-man-in-cork-833227.html

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

Just seen this

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/calls-for-system-review-of-homelessness-after-death-of-man-in-cork-833227.html

Any day now- 10,000 people will be classified as 'homeless' in this country.

Those really in need- are being lost in this rush to classify people as homeless. We have a burgeoning market in classifying people as homeless.
We cannot keep on adding new categories of people to our homeless list- if you have a roof over your head and have had a hot meal in the last day- thats not homeless- in fact you're probably better off than 10-15% of people- including some on decent salaries in good jobs.

This whole reclassifying of people as homeless- means those who most need our help in society- are at the back of a maddening crowd- and normally they are the sort of people least able to argue their point- as they have mental health issues, addiction problems etc etc- they don't have access to Twitter and the Internet to try and guilt politicians into handing them their wildest dreams on a gilded platter.

It is appalling that homelessness has been turned into a growth industry- at the cost of the people who need help more than anyone else in society.

Wanderer78

The_Conductor wrote: »

Any day now- 10,000 people will be classified as 'homeless' in this country.

Those really in need- are being lost in this rush to classify people as homeless. We have a burgeoning market in classifying people as homeless.
We cannot keep on adding new categories of people to our homeless list- if you have a roof over your head and have had a hot meal in the last day- thats not homeless- in fact you're probably better off than 10-15% of people- including some on decent salaries in good jobs.

This whole reclassifying of people as homeless- means those who most need our help in society- are at the back of a maddening crowd- and normally they are the sort of people least able to argue their point- as they have mental health issues, addiction problems etc etc- they don't have access to Twitter and the Internet to try and guilt politicians into handing them their wildest dreams on a gilded platter.

It is appalling that homelessness has been turned into a growth industry- at the cost of the people who need help more than anyone else in society.

disagree, the failure of the neoliberial ideology, i.e. ultimately blame the individual without questioning 'systemic failure'!

The Student

Wanderer78 wrote: »

disagree, the failure of the neoliberial ideology, i.e. ultimately blame the individual without questioning 'systemic failure'!

If the individual did not abuse the system we would not be in the position we are in now.

Wanderer78

The Student wrote: »

If the individual did not abuse the system we would not be in the position we are in now.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

disagree, the failure of the neoliberial ideology, i.e. ultimately blame the individual without questioning 'systemic failure'!

and again!

Vizzy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and again!

Do you not apportion any blame to the individual who won't pay rent, or thrashes their accommodation because they have a drug or alcohol dependency and then find themselves in a position where housing becomes "unavailable" ?

Wanderer78

Vizzy wrote: »

Do you not apportion any blame to the individual who won't pay rent, or thrashes their accommodation because they have a drug or alcohol dependency and then find themselves in a position where housing becomes "unavailable" ?

do our social institutions such as our health care system etc, do a good enough job of dealing with our complex social issues such as drug and alcohol dependency?

Vizzy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

do our social institutions such as our health care system etc, do a good enough job of dealing with our complex social issues such as drug and alcohol dependency?

In some cases, no, but generally, if individuals are willing to engage with mental health or drug addiction services, then they will receive the support that they require.
In many cases, the homeless (i.e. the actual street sleepers) are the ones who have had services provided to them and have been unwilling or unable to continue to avail of them.

NIMAN

The_Conductor wrote: »

Any day now- 10,000 people will be classified as 'homeless' in this country.

Those really in need- are being lost in this rush to classify people as homeless. We have a burgeoning market in classifying people as homeless.
We cannot keep on adding new categories of people to our homeless list- if you have a roof over your head and have had a hot meal in the last day- thats not homeless- in fact you're probably better off than 10-15% of people- including some on decent salaries in good jobs.

This whole reclassifying of people as homeless- means those who most need our help in society- are at the back of a maddening crowd- and normally they are the sort of people least able to argue their point- as they have mental health issues, addiction problems etc etc- they don't have access to Twitter and the Internet to try and guilt politicians into handing them their wildest dreams on a gilded platter.

It is appalling that homelessness has been turned into a growth industry- at the cost of the people who need help more than anyone else in society.

Nail on head Conductor......its a business now for some to keep this in the news and to keep the numbers rising, whether they actually are or not. Its taking away from the really badly off, to count in those people who turn down perfectly good offers of a home, or those living with their parents, etc.

As for this man's death, its very sad of course, but it wasn't Gov policy that killed him. Every single rough sleeper has a guaranteed bed in Ireland, if they want it. But the authorities can force people to take them. This man obviously had serious issues that made him want to sleep rough. I hate the fact that many use a human death to beat the Gov with.

NIMAN

I would really love to see some investigative journo have the balls to look into this homeless business, and pull apart the nonsense figures we are being fed.

A few secret camera recordings of people being advised how to cheat the system, get up queues etc is whats needed to stop this relentless drive towards the 10,000 homeless mark, which isn't far away.

But no journo would have the guts I think, as the social media brigade would turn on them.

And finally, we often hear the term, "somewhere to live or a roof over your head is a basic human right".

I would agree but when people are being offered homes, sometimes brand new, and are still turning them down, then they need to be called out for what they are.

NIMAN

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Wheeliebin30

NIMAN wrote: »

I would really love to see some investigative journo have the balls to look into this homeless business, and pull apart the nonsense figures we are being fed.

A few secret camera recordings of people being advised how to cheat the system, get up queues etc is whats needed to stop this relentless drive towards the 10,000 homeless mark, which isn't far away.

But no journo would have the guts I think, as the social media brigade would turn on them.

And finally, we often hear the term, "somewhere to live or a roof over your head is a basic human right".

I would agree but when people are being offered homes, sometimes brand new, and are still turning them down, then they need to be called out for what they are.

Look at that short video about LA's homeless....do you think any of those would turn down a perfectly good house because it wasn't near their Ma, or didn't have room for a trampoline? Only in Ireland!!

Not a chance any journslist has the balls to do it.

Everyone is thinking it but are a afraid to open their mouths.

Imagine that in modern Ireland.

That's the fear the opposition partied have instilled.

corks finest

NIMAN wrote: »

I would really love to see some investigative journo have the balls to look into this homeless business, and pull apart the nonsense figures we are being fed.

A few secret camera recordings of people being advised how to cheat the system, get up queues etc is whats needed to stop this relentless drive towards the 10,000 homeless mark, which isn't far away.

But no journo would have the guts I think, as the social media brigade would turn on them.

And finally, we often hear the term, "somewhere to live or a roof over your head is a basic human right".

I would agree but when people are being offered homes, sometimes brand new, and are still turning them down, then they need to be called out for what they are.

Good piece

Browney7

NIMAN wrote: »

I would really love to see some investigative journo have the balls to look into this homeless business, and pull apart the nonsense figures we are being fed.

A few secret camera recordings of people being advised how to cheat the system, get up queues etc is whats needed to stop this relentless drive towards the 10,000 homeless mark, which isn't far away.

But no journo would have the guts I think, as the social media brigade would turn on them.

And finally, we often hear the term, "somewhere to live or a roof over your head is a basic human right".

I would agree but when people are being offered homes, sometimes brand new, and are still turning them down, then they need to be called out for what they are.

Look at that short video about LA's homeless....do you think any of those would turn down a perfectly good house because it wasn't near their Ma, or didn't have room for a trampoline? Only in Ireland!!

How many people have turned down offers of housing? How many vacant units do local authorities have. There's no doubting there is a severe shortage of housing in suitable locations

NIMAN

People are still turning down houses....I provided a link to an article a couple of weeks ago on a thread on Boards.

It is happening, whether we want to accept it or not. If people were genuinely desperate for somewhere to live, there would be next to no refusals.

But they aren't you see, thats the issue. They are making it sound like they are desperate when they aren't and this in turn hides the real sad cases who are desperate.

As for no-one having the balls to mention it, Niall Boylan said a bit about it on Brendan O'Connor's Cutting Edge last wednesday.

Wheeliebin30

Seen an article the other day showing 1 in 5 homeless people have refused houses offered.

NIMAN

some recent articles :

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/almost-one-third-of-families-refusing-social-housing-were-homeless-1.3414714

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/families-to-be-allowed-refuse-only-one-social-housing-offer-1.3214785

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/3000-social-housing-offers-turned-down-in-past-two-years-450651.html

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1752147/woman-refuses-social-housing-because-sea-view-made-her-seasick-as-one-in-four-turn-down-offer-of-home/

Graces7

http://www.mayonews.ie/news/31735-claremorris-housing-agency-should-be-ashamed

slightly off topic but..

bigpink

It’s a business in Limerick there st least 4 homeless charities I’m aware of

mariaalice

bigpink wrote: »

It’s a business in Limerick there st least 4 homeless charities I’m aware of

So they are all sitting around twiddling their thumbs helping the imagery homeless.

Claw Hammer

there are valid reasons why people refuse houses. many people would not want accommodation beside drug dealers for example. There may be children established in schools and it is not feasible to change school or transport them from a remote area.
Some local authorities operate a bidding system whereby everyone on the list is offered a house and the highest placed person who expresses and interest gets the house. This reduces the void periods and cuts the work of the council of having to make numerous offers in sequence to let a house.

LirW

There may be children established in schools and it is not feasible to change school or transport them from a remote area.

That is a valid reason when you for example live in Dublin but are offered a house in Backar5eroscommon. But honestly, a lot of kids have to change school because their parents can't afford the rent in the area anymore. There are loads of schools around the country. We couldn't afford to buy in Dublin so we moved out and my son had to change school to a rural one.
I get it as an excuse when it's for example a single mother working with very little support network, that could be difficult.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

there are valid reasons why people refuse houses. many people would not want accommodation beside drug dealers for example. There may be children established in schools and it is not feasible to change school or transport them from a remote area.
Some local authorities operate a bidding system whereby everyone on the list is offered a house and the highest placed person who expresses and interest gets the house. This reduces the void periods and cuts the work of the council of having to make numerous offers in sequence to let a house.

Even if you bought your own property there’s no guarantee that there aren’t undesirables living next to you. Changing schools isn’t a big deal either. Kids are adaptable and will settle probably quicker than their parents. Those of us who live in remote areas have no problem transporting our kids to school. People need stop looking at the negatives and think positive. “Yes, we can”