Homelessness on the rise

Graces7

Vizzy wrote: »

OK, I'll simplify it for you, people who would normally need to be housed by the Council are now housed in HAP ( and a large proportion are happy to stay there).
Are these people social housing applicants or not?

Cos if they are ( and they are particularly of the 99000) then HAP is social housing

Nope

http://hap.ie/

In many ways a way of massaging homeless figures as HAP tenants are not homeless

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Nope

http://hap.ie/

In many ways a way of massaging homeless figures as HAP tenants are not homeless

Of course they’re not homeless. Anyone with a roof over their heads are not homeless.

HAP is a form of social housing support. Are you now suggesting that anyone living in social housing or availing of the many support schemes are homeless?

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Nope

http://hap.ie/

In many ways a way of massaging homeless figures as HAP tenants are not homeless

its a way of people not being homeless

what exactly is massaging about that

as always,


""""'homeless"""""


is a meaningless term the way people are throwing it about

Tony EH

It's NEVER been a meaningless term.

It has ALWAYS meant "without fixed abode".

There are some who to redefine it for their political purposes. But, it has always had an actual meaning.

Sleeper12

Tony EH wrote:

There are some who to redefine it for their political purposes. But, it has always had an actual meaning.

In most modern countries they include people couch surfing or staying in friends or family spare room temporarily as homeless. We are quite modest in the way we count our homeless population. We could easily double our homeless numbers by using international standards.

I've no doubt 3rd world countries count homeless differently but we are a 1st world country and use 1st world measurement

Graces7

Sleeper12 wrote: »

In most modern countries they include people couch surfing or staying in friends or family spare room temporarily as homeless. We are quite modest in the way we count our homeless population. We could easily double our homeless numbers by using international standards.

I've no doubt 3rd world countries count homeless differently but we are a 1st world country and use 1st world measurement

Not true. in eg Canada they only use the term "homeless" for rough sleepers, As they have nearly 3 million of these.. I have family there working with the homeless.

Ireland alone calls those in temp accommodation homeless and the charities call hotel room people homeless.

Actual rough sleeper figures here are low

Ireland exaggerates.

Graces7

Tony EH wrote: »

It's NEVER been a meaningless term.

It has ALWAYS meant "without fixed abode".

There are some who to redefine it for their political purposes. But, it has always had an actual meaning.

In eg Canada and Greece it means without a roof, sleeping rough .. Not safe in a hotel or hostel.

Sleeper12

Graces7 wrote:

Ireland alone calls those in temp accommodation homeless and the charities call hotel room people homeless.

I'm sorry but you are making this up off the top of your head.

"A claim by Taoiseach Leo Varadkar that Ireland’s rate of homelessness is not high by international standards has drawn criticism from homeless organisations and the Opposition.
At a media conference at the Fine Gael national conference in Cavan, Mr Varadkar stood over his assertion that the Government’s housing strategy was working by comparing Ireland with other countries.
“Ireland has one of the lowest homelessness (rates) by international standards compared with our peers – they’re the stats, we can provide them for you.
“That is a good thing in Ireland, that we have a low level of homelessness compared to our peer countries. But what’s better than that is we don’t think that’s good enough, and we want to continue to reduce homelessness in the years ahead,†he said.
The Government wanted “to make sure we turn the tide†on the issue, he said.
In a tweet, the Simon Community contested the Taoiseach’s claim, saying he was not comparing like with like.
“This is not true. Other countries use a broader definition of homelessness when gathering their statistics,†it said.
Eoin Ó Broin, housing spokesman of Sinn Féin, also took issue with the Taoiseach’s comments: “This isn’t true. The Government only counts those in emergency accommodation and rough sleepers,†he said in a tweet.
“Others include all homeless people, including sofa surfers, involuntary sharing in unsuitable conditions.â€
“The Taoiseach shows his incompetence yet again!†he claimed."
Irish Times 11/11/2017



" However, the Simon Communities of Ireland challenged the claim that Ireland's rates of homelessness are low compared with other countries.
In a tweet it said "Our monthly figures only include a very limited number - those in section 10 funded emergency accommodation".
"They do not include rough sleepers & those in squats, hidden homelessness (couch surfers etc & those in non-section 10 funded accommodation" said the tweet.
The CEO of Inner City Helping Homeless also responded to the Taoiseach's comments.
"This is a Walter Mitty remark from a Fine Gael led-government who failed to even put the housing/homeless crisis on the agenda at their national conference," said CEO Anthony Flynn. "
RTE news 13/11/2017

Ireland has a very modest way of numbering our homeless population

Tony EH

Graces7 wrote: »

In eg Canada and Greece it means without a roof, sleeping rough .. Not safe in a hotel or hostel.

The first actual Canadian definition of homeless was outlined in 2012:


Canadian Homelessness Research Network (CHRN):
"Homelessness describes the situation of an individual or family without stable, permanent, appropriate housing, or the immediate prospect, means and ability of acquiring it. It is the result of systemic or societal barriers, a lack of affordable and appropriate housing, the individual/household’s financial, mental, cognitive, behavioural or physical challenges, and/or racism and discrimination. Most people do not choose to be homeless, and the experience is generally negative, unpleasant, stressful and distressing."
— CHRN, 2012

Wheeliebin30

Tony EH wrote: »

The first actual Canadian definition of homeless was outlined in 2012:


Canadian Homelessness Research Network (CHRN):
"Homelessness describes the situation of an individual or family without stable, permanent, appropriate housing, or the immediate prospect, means and ability of acquiring it. It is the result of systemic or societal barriers, a lack of affordable and appropriate housing, the individual/household’s financial, mental, cognitive, behavioural or physical challenges, and/or racism and discrimination. Most people do not choose to be homeless, and the experience is generally negative, unpleasant, stressful and distressing."
— CHRN, 2012

But sure no one has stable permanent housing?

Not unless you own your house outright.

What a load of nonsense.

Sleeper12

Graces7 wrote:

In eg Canada and Greece it means without a roof, sleeping rough .. Not safe in a hotel or hostel.

"Measuring homelessness internationally
As we already stated, it is notoriously difficult to measure homelessness across different countries – even at EU level. This is because different countries use different definitions of homelessness, measure it differently and report on it differently.
One of the reports referenced by government as backing up its claim is the 2014 report from Feantsa – the European homelessness NGO. The report is titled Extent and Profile of Homelessness in European Member States, and looks at homelessness across 15 EU countries.
The second report – referenced by the Government Press Office – is the OECD Homeless Population report, which attempts to track levels of homelessness across OECD nations. Both reports reference a standardised approach to measuring homelessness known as the European Typology of Homelessness (ETHOS) Light system.
The ETHOS Light system was developed by Feantsa as a way of standardising homelessness data from different countries for the basis of research. Under ETHOS Light, there are six categories used to define homelessness, but not all categories apply in each country.
The categories are:

People living rough

People in emergency accommodation

People living in accommodation for the homeless

People living in institutions (and due to be released with no home to go to)

People living in non-conventional dwellings due to a lack of housing

Homeless people living temporarily in conventional housing with family and friends (due to a lack of housing)

Ireland only uses categories 1-3 in its definitions and measuring of homelessness.
The Feantsa report
The Feantsa report was compiled by getting experts across 15 EU member states to complete a questionnaire exploring the extent of statistical data on homelessness in their countries. The report finds that Ireland and Spain appeared to have the lowest levels of homelessness overall, but it notes that “their definitions did not include some ETHOS Light categories of homelessnessâ€.
For this reason, it would be inaccurate to directly compare their rate of homelessness to other countries which may use other categories of measurement.
All countries typically apply categories 1-3 when counting homelessness (with some exceptions in how they are measured). Ireland is one of the countries that only uses these definitions.
Denmark, Finland and Sweden apply all six categories when counting the number of homeless people.
Meanwhile, Germany, the Netherlands, the UK, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Spain all include in some form people living temporarily in conventional housing with family and friends due to a lack of housing (Ireland does not)."

The journal fact check 15/11/2017

Again we are very modest with our homeless numbers in Ireland compared to international standards. This does not include the government juggling the figures in the last 3 or 4 months to make it look like we have under 10,000 homeless when they know full well that the figure is over 10,500 and rising

Sleeper12

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

But sure no one has stable permanent housing?

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

What a load of nonsense.

Call it nonsense if it makes you feel more secure in yourself but it is how they measure homelessness. We don't count people that most EU countries count. Couch surfing & such yet even with our modest way of counting we still have the highest rate.

No EU country only counts rough sleepers much as you might want them to. It is recognised worldwide that homelessness in a 1st world country is a lot more than rough sleepers.

Wheeliebin30

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Call it nonsense if it makes you feel more secure in yourself but it is how they measure homelessness. We don't count people that most EU countries count. Couch surfing & such yet even with our modest way of counting we still have the highest rate.

No EU country only counts rough sleepers much as you might want them to. It is recognised worldwide that homelessness in a 1st world country is a lot more than rough sleepers.

Sorry we have the highest rate even with our modest way?

You’re 100% wrong.

No we don’t we have one of the lowest.

Sweden, Germany, Denmark UK etc all have more than us.

Wheeliebin30

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Call it nonsense if it makes you feel more secure in yourself but it is how they measure homelessness. We don't count people that most EU countries count. Couch surfing & such yet even with our modest way of counting we still have the highest rate.

No EU country only counts rough sleepers much as you might want them to. It is recognised worldwide that homelessness in a 1st world country is a lot more than rough sleepers.

Where did I say rough sleepers???????

Old diesel

Deleted User wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Nope

http://hap.ie/

In many ways a way of massaging homeless figures as HAP tenants are not homeless

Of course they’re not homeless. Anyone with a roof over their heads are not homeless.

HAP is a form of social housing support. Are you now suggesting that anyone living in social housing or availing of the many support schemes are homeless?

It's social housing waiting lists that HAP messages as HAP tenants were and maybe still are coming off the main housing list.

They can go on transfer list.

Anyone successfully getting a HAP tenancy is deemed to have their housing need met.

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote:

Ireland only uses categories 1-3 in its definitions and measuring of homelessness. The Feantsa report The Feantsa report was compiled by getting experts across 15 EU member states to complete a questionnaire exploring the extent of statistical data on homelessness in their countries. The report finds that Ireland and Spain appeared to have the lowest levels of homelessness overall, but it notes that “their definitions did not include some ETHOS Light categories of homelessnessâ€. For this reason, it would be inaccurate to directly compare their rate of homelessness to other countries which may use other categories of measurement. All countries typically apply categories 1-3 when counting homelessness (with some exceptions in how they are measured). Ireland is one of the countries that only uses these definitions. Denmark, Finland and Sweden apply all six categories when counting the number of homeless people. Meanwhile, Germany, the Netherlands, the UK, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Spain all include in some form people living temporarily in conventional housing with family and friends due to a lack of housing (Ireland does not)."

Please read the above. Our homeless figures would more than double if we measured the same way.

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

Sweden, Germany, Denmark UK etc all have more than us.

Wheeliebin30

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Please read the above. Our homeless figures would more than double if we measured the same way.

But you said we have the highest even with our modest way of measuring it?

So you lied yes?

Sleeper12

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

But you said we have the highest even with our modest way of measuring it?

Yes we do

Wheeliebin30

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Yes we do

Em
No we don’t.

We are one of the lowest in the EU.

Denmark, Sweden, Germany, uk, Finland, Spain, the list goes on.

You are talking absolute nonsense.

Sleeper12

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

Denmark, Sweden, Germany, uk, Finland, Spain, the list goes on.

What year are you going on??? We have a higher number then all of the above. Have you any links?

Sleeper12

I was reading somewhere that the government are drawing up plans to remove non EU members from the homeless figures. Yet again manipulating the figures trying to keep it under 10,000 homeless.

I was also reading that many countries include people living in caravans and women & children living in shelters. I wonder how many thousands that would add to our figures?

Wheeliebin30

Sleeper12 wrote: »

What year are you going on??? We have a higher number then all of the above. Have you any links?

I googled each country and homeless figures, it’s well known we have one of the lowest even with our modest way as you put it.

Google Germany Sweden homeless there for yourself and see.

Germany has 250,000.

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

What year are you going on??? We have a higher number then all of the above. Have you any links?

According to Denmark they have 6000 people homeless .
With an advocacy group claims of 10,000

Seems somebody's claims don't match up .

And most of the countries mentioned couch surfing and several other definitions as homeless which cannot be applied it here

German claims their homeless figures are around 300,000 + and yet we have an emergency like no other

Sleeper12

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

I googled each country and homeless figures, it’s well known we have one of the lowest even with our modest way as you put it.

You beat me to the punch. I'm sorry I was wrong. I was going on 2016 figures for Germany.
.14 percent vrs Ireland .17 percent. I have since found worse figures for Germany.

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

And most of the countries mentioned couch surfing and several other definitions as homeless which cannot be applied it here

Couch surfing, caravans, women & children in refuge shelters aren't counted here

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Couch surfing, caravans, women & children in refuge shelters aren't counted here

Because they are not homeless

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

Because they are not homeless

Maybe, maybe not. I'm just pointing out that in Ireland we don't include people on the homeless numbers that other EU countries include. It keeps are figures artificially low & makes it very difficult to compare to other EU countries

Have a read below to see the differences

thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

Sleeper12

Again in the article below the government trying to artificially lower the homeless figures

thejournal.ie/homeless-charities-non-nationals-3998158-May2018/

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not. I'm just pointing out that in Ireland we don't include people on the homeless numbers that other EU countries include. It keeps are figures artificially low & makes it very difficult to compare to other EU countries

But it could be arguedaddition of non homeless people keeps the figures artificially high and keeps the newly minted homeless charity's well funded