How do Pro Life campaigners want women who have abortions punished?

rjpf1980

Since pro life campaigners believe abortion is murder wouldn't this mean women who abortions should be jailed for life or executed in many jurisdictions?

In Ireland this doesn't happen because women just travel to Britain and other EU countries where it is legal so no need to be arrested in Ireland.

Apart from a few crazies nobody in the referendum in the early 1990s wanted to prohibit women from travelling for an abortion abroad or accessing information on abortion.

In the ideal world Pro Life campaigners wish no where on earth would abortion be legal and for abortion to be murder. In an ideal world they would have women thrown into jail for life wouldn't they?

If you are pro life what is your view,?

RobertKK

Yes we needed another abortion discussion....

rjpf1980

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes we needed another abortion discussion....

We clearly do because there is a politically powerful well funded vocal and well supported Pro Life movement in Ireland who are opposed to repealing the 8th Amendment.

They believe abortion is murder and accordingly must believe women should be punished.

Decent Skin

rjpf1980 wrote: »

We clearly do because there is a politically powerful well funded vocal and well supported Pro Life movement in Ireland who are opposed to repealing the 8th Amendment.

They believe abortion is murder and accordingly must believe women should be punished.

As long as it's a reasoned discussion without the extremists from both sides getting to hog it, it's long overdue!

Good opening question btw.

Personally I'd guess they're partially covered given their reliance on the "thou shalt not kill", therefore ruling out capital punishment, but given that - how do they want them dealt with ? Jailed for the 7 years that passes for "life" in this country ?

humberklog

Decent Skin wrote: »

As long as it's a reasoned discussion without the extremists from both sides getting to hog it, it's long overdue!

Good opening question btw.

Too late.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I don't think they do tbh.

I don't think that anybody out there embraces the reality of what an abortion is. It's a horrendous experience for any woman to go through. It's something that they will have to live for the rest of their lives.

Life is not black and white, sometimes women might need that choice to terminate the child they're carrying.

Don't forget that they're could a father suffering for it too.

Be very careful before you judge a couple who decide on an abortion

Arcade_Tryer

Because their arguments and beliefs ultimately stem from religious faith.

Decent Skin

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I don't think they do tbh.

I don't think that anybody out there embraces the reality of what an abortion is. It's a horrendous experience for any woman to go through. It's something that they will have to live for the rest of their lives.

Life is not black and white, sometimes women might need that choice to terminate the child they're carrying.

Don't forget that they're could a father suffering for it too.

Be very careful before you judge a couple who decide on an abortion

Someone who commits manslaughter is also "carrying that around for the rest of their life", but they're still "punished".

Agree wholeheartedly otherwise though; it's part of the reason why we need a debate and need proper pre- and post- support services here at home, both to prevent some abortions for those who feel trapped or alone and to look after those who have made what is a damn tough and soul-searching choice.

Rainman16

I believe Irish women should be able to have their abortions here in Ireland. But I don't think the cost of it should be on the tax payer.

endacl

If it's legal, it ain't murder.

/thread.

mansize

Apparently they'll get breast cancer and lots of other terrible things according to this pro-life group

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFvOoMvpJGE

Decent Skin

Rainman16 wrote: »

I believe Irish women should be able to have their abortions here in Ireland. But I don't think the cost of it should be on the tax payer.

Certainly not completely, but it can't be a scenario where only the rich can avail of it either, because if unplanned/unwanted kids are all in poorer families then things will get worse.

Acknowledging that many money-rich families are poorer in real terms of what really matters, but still.

Decent Skin

endacl wrote: »

If it's legal, it ain't murder.

/thread.

They call it that though. So if they had their way and were consistent then they'd have to punish it as such.

endacl

Decent Skin wrote: »

They call it that though. So if they had their way and were consistent then they'd have to punish it as such.

They couldn't though. That'd be vigilantism.

They're pro-life. They're not Batman.

Decent Skin

endacl wrote: »

They couldn't though. That'd be vigilantism.

They're pro-life. They're not Batman.

Not what I'm getting at. If they had their way then it'd be illegal and dealt with by the law; so it'd be an arrestable offence that they refer to as "murder". Not vigilantism.

endacl

Decent Skin wrote: »

Not what I'm getting at. If they had their way then it'd be illegal and dealt with by the law; so it'd be an arrestable offence that they refer to as "murder". Not vigilantism.

Well, as the procedure is generally carried out in another jurisdiction where it is legal...

Except for terminations that are occasionally carried out here, under strict conditions, and legally...

Donald Trump

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I don't think they do tbh.

I don't think that anybody out there embraces the reality of what an abortion is. It's a horrendous experience for any woman to go through. It's something that they will have to live for the rest of their lives.

Life is not black and white, sometimes women might need that choice to terminate the child they're carrying.

Don't forget that they're could a father suffering for it too.

Be very careful before you judge a couple who decide on an abortion

Sure if you listen to people with pro-abortion stances they'd have you believe it's the easiest and quickest solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

Somewhat similar to taking a cough medicine.

endacl

Donald Trump wrote: »

Sure if you listen to people with pro-abortion stances they'd have you believe it's the easiest and quickest solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

Somewhat similar to taking a cough medicine.

You know, I've never met somebody with a 'pro abortion stance'. And neither have you.

Donald Trump

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Since pro life campaigners believe abortion is murder wouldn't this mean women who abortions should be jailed for life or executed in many jurisdictions?

In Ireland this doesn't happen because women just travel to Britain and other EU countries where it is legal so no need to be arrested in Ireland.

Apart from a few crazies nobody in the referendum in the early 1990s wanted to prohibit women from travelling for an abortion abroad or accessing information on abortion.

In the ideal world Pro Life campaigners wish no where on earth would abortion be legal and for abortion to be murder. In an ideal world they would have women thrown into jail for life wouldn't they?

If you are pro life what is your view,?

It's opening a can of worms.

Different jurisdiction, but I remember after the Omagh bombing, the family of the pregnant woman who was killed had to fight to have the unborn twins recognised in the count of the victims.


When you make a law, you need to remember that it might have consequences beyond the reason for which you want it.

Donald Trump

endacl wrote: »

You know, I've never met somebody with a 'pro abortion stance'. And neither have you.

Yes, I have.

As an extreme example, I met "extreme environmentalists" who think that people should not have kids and that an abortion is preferable to bringing another person into the world to drain the earths resources.

If you want to play that game of semantics, then pro-life people are not pro-forcing women to procreate either. They don't see a childless woman and think "lets force her to have a child"

endacl

Donald Trump wrote: »

Yes, I have.

As an extreme example, I met "extreme environmentalists" who think that people should not have kids and that an abortion is preferable to bringing another person into the world to drain the earths resources.

If you want to play that game of semantics, then pro-life people are not pro-forcing women to procreate either. They don't see a childless woman and think "lets force her to have a child"

I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that extreme examples are the only examples you could come up with though.

And that extreme example you gave isn't looking at the issue from the point of view of either a pro choice or pro life position. I'd imagine we can all agree that 'anti-human' is just a bonkers position.

I think we can disregard the bonkers.

And no, of course nobody would think 'let's force her to have a child'. Kinda what pro-choice is all about. Owner of the womb decides. I'm glad we can agree on that very salient point.

Decent Skin

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's opening a can of worms.

Different jurisdiction, but I remember after the Omagh bombing, the family of the pregnant woman who was killed had to fight to have the unborn twins recognised in the count of the victims.


When you make a law, you need to remember that it might have consequences beyond the reason for which you want it.

Her choice. Isn't it great that she had that choice ? Imagine if people were against choices ? She couldn't even fight.

And she had that choice in a "pro abortion" country :rolleyes: too!

Decent Skin

Donald Trump wrote: »

Yes, I have.

As an extreme example, I met "extreme environmentalists" who think that people should not have kids and that an abortion is preferable to bringing another person into the world to drain the earths resources.

If you want to play that game of semantics, then pro-life people are not pro-forcing women to procreate either. They don't see a childless woman and think "lets force her to have a child"

Actually if she's raped they're doing exactly that.

Decent Skin

endacl wrote: »

[b{Well, as the procedure is generally carried out in another jurisdiction where it is legal...[/b]

Except for terminations that are occasionally carried out here, under strict conditions, and legally...

Some "anti-choicers" wanted the right to travel blocked.

Donald Trump

endacl wrote: »

I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that extreme examples are the only examples you could come up with though.

And that extreme example you gave isn't looking at the issue from the point of view of either a pro choice or pro life position. I'd imagine we can all agree that 'anti-human' is just a bonkers position.

I think we can disregard the bonkers.

And no, of course nobody would think 'let's force her to have a child'. Kinda what pro-choice is all about. Owner of the womb decides. I'm glad we can agree on that very salient point.

What counts as "pro-abortion"? I would define it as someone who instinctively leans towards abortion as a method of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy without hearing the details. If you want to play semantics and say "pro-abortion" is someone who wants women to get pregnant so that they can have abortions, then yes, you won't find any.

Or maybe someone like

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm fed up with the over-simplistic arguments. I just googled to get the above links as I was generally aware that such things exist

Donald Trump

Decent Skin wrote: »

Actually if she's raped they're doing exactly that.

Ehhh, try reading it again. :pac:

A "pro-lifer" sees a random childless woman on the street. They don't think that she should be raped and forced to give birth to a child.


I think that it is a scumbag thing to do to use women who have been raped as a tool to try to push your own angle. It's completely scummy and vulture-like. Do those type of people sit around in a room hoping that a woman will be raped and impregnated so that they can use her as a poster girl?

endacl

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm fed up with the over-simplistic arguments.

Perhaps you ought to consider not making them in that case?

Decent Skin

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ehhh, try reading it again. :pac:

A "pro-lifer" sees a random childless woman on the street. They don't think that she should be raped and forced to give birth to a child.


I think that it is a scumbag thing to do to use women who have been raped as a tool to try to push your own angle. It's completely scummy and vulture-like. Do those type of people sit around in a room hoping that a woman will be raped and impregnated so that they can use her as a poster girl?

That is absolutely horrendous to see typed. I'm out.

Decent Skin

humberklog wrote: »

Too late.

Definitely too late now anyway.

Donald Trump

endacl wrote: »

Perhaps you ought to consider not making them in that case?

Like what? I didn't really make any arguments????? At least not direct arguments against the topic proposed at the start of the thread. You might try to infer something from what I said but that is a reflection on you rather than me as you may not be correct in your assumption

Grayson

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you want to play that game of semantics, then pro-life people are not pro-forcing women to procreate either. They don't see a childless woman and think "lets force her to have a child"

Sure we do.

Donald Trump

Grayson wrote: »

Sure we do.

Look stop twisting things.

I said "childless".

Grayson

Donald Trump wrote: »

Look stop twisting things.

I said "childless".

She didn't have a child. She was pregnant but hadn't given birth.

Donald Trump

Grayson wrote: »

She didn't have a child. She was pregnant but hadn't given birth.

Was she "with child"? Ever hear that expression?

This is so fucking infantile.

Trying to twist stupid things.

But hey, if you want to say that anyone who is pro-life is also pro-"forcing women to get pregnant and have a child" (i.e. getting raped) then go ahead and spout that line.

applehunter

I'll speak for the unborn child.

"I would prefer to live than be killed."

dudara

It's an interesting argument to explore, and I don't think it's one that's addressed often.

Pro-life people believe that abortion is murder; they believe that the life of a person is taken through the act of abortion.

If a crime has been committed, then the wrongdoer should be punished. What punishment do the pro-life campaign deem appropriate for the crime?

applehunter

one for the legal egales.

I Presume a custodial sentence.

Grayson

applehunter wrote: »

one for the legal egales.

I Presume a custodial sentence.

It is here. Most people don't realise that there's a 14 year sentence for anyone who is knowingly involved in an abortion.

The freedom to travel option is only allowed because it was included in an earlier referendum. So travel to the UK and you're ok. Buy pills from the UK and take them here and you could get 14 years in jail. As far as I'm aware it's anyone involved. So if I let someone use my credit card or have the pills delivered to my place or even say "Take them here so you're not alone" and I could face a 14 year sentence.

gandalf

Knowing the Anti-choice brigade they probably want the Magdalene laundries reopened and the women interned there for their "sins".

nozzferrahhtoo

applehunter wrote: »

I'll speak for the unborn child. "I would prefer to live than be killed."

Not sure what anthropomorphizing the fetus and presuming to know it's mind does for the discussion myself.

AbusesToilets

I always am struck by the contrast in those who decry abortion and argue so passionately for the right to life for a fetus, yet couldn't give a toss for the child (and mother) after birth.

Abortion isn't some brutal, traumatic experience. It's a normal out patient medical procedure, little different from getting a tooth pulled.

lawlolawl

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Not sure what anthropomorphizing the fetus and presuming to know it's mind does for the discussion myself.

What mind?

It doesn't have one at that stage.

Burial.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Abortion isn't some brutal, traumatic experience. It's a normal out patient medical procedure, little different from getting a tooth pulled.

What a ridiculous statement. You couldn't be any further from the reality.

rjpf1980

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I don't think they do tbh.

I don't think that anybody out there embraces the reality of what an abortion is. It's a horrendous experience for any woman to go through. It's something that they will have to live for the rest of their lives.

Life is not black and white, sometimes women might need that choice to terminate the child they're carrying.

Don't forget that they're could a father suffering for it too.

Be very careful before you judge a couple who decide on an abortion

If abortion is "murder" then surely this means the doctors and nurses in the abortion clinic plus the woman patient and anyone who was involved as an "accomplice" - perhaps her boyfriend or husband, mother, sister, best friend - would all go to jail of life? Or in jurisdictions with the death penalty they would all get the needle or hang or be beheaded or get a firing squad etc?

As I understand abortion in Ireland is a crime carrying a life sentence but for obvious reasons women go to England to get terminations.

Hypothetically if there was a prohibition on the right to travel abroad for an abortion or else abortion was not available legally outside of this country and women had illegal abortions here then thousands and thousands of women would be in prison for life plus thousands and thousands more who helped them.

The country would have to build vast prisons to hold all these people plus employ thousands of wardens and armed guards and soldiers to stop mass escapes.

rjpf1980

gandalf wrote: »

Knowing the Anti-choice brigade they probably want the Magdalene laundries reopened and the women interned there for their "sins".

If there was to be a ban on the right to travel for an abortion - after all thousands of Irish "babies" are being "killed" in England - any woman between the age of puberty and menopause would have to be screened at the airport's and ports to make sure none of them is pregnant and trying to sneak out.

No woman could be trusted so any pregnant woman would probably have to be detained until they give birth and watched 24/7 to prevent them from self harming? And if they were caught planning an abortion they would have to be thrown in prison for attempted murder right?

This is where the pro- life logic goes?

Depp

very strangely framed op suggesting that all pro life people are this, all pro life people are that. I'd identify as pro life to an extent, if bearing the child for the full term is a danger to the mother I believe aborting the foetus should be allowed but unrestricted abortions shouldn't be allowed. A childs life is not something to be thrown quite literally in a bin just because its inconvenient. Don't think the mother should be punished, going through the experience of an abortion and everything that goes with it is bad enough. Any doctor however who performs the procedure other than in the interest of saving the mothers life, should be struck from the register and punished severely.

I understand there are some hardliners no denying it but most level headed pro-life people I have come into contact with have similar views on the topic, to suggest most pro-lifers want the mother punished and some want her executed is incredibly disingenuous

osarusan

rjpf1980 wrote: »

The country would have to build vast prisons to hold all these people plus employ thousands of wardens and armed guards and soldiers to stop mass escapes.

rjpf1980 wrote: »

No woman could be trusted so any pregnant woman would probably have to be detained until they give birth and watched 24/7 to prevent them from self harming? And if they were caught planning an abortion they would have to be thrown in prison for attempted murder right?

Any chance you could give this shyte a rest?

rjpf1980

Depp wrote: »

very strangely framed op suggesting that all pro life people are this, all pro life people are that. I'd identify as pro life to an extent, if bearing the child for the full term is a danger to the mother I believe aborting the foetus should be allowed but unrestricted abortions shouldn't be allowed. A childs life is not something to be thrown quite literally in a bin just because its inconvenient. Don't think the mother should be punished, going through the experience of an abortion and everything that goes with it is bad enough. Any doctor however who performs the procedure other than in the interest of saving the mothers life, should be struck from the register and punished severely.

I understand there are some hardliners no denying it but most level headed pro-life people I have come into contact with have similar views on the topic, to suggest most pro-lifers want the mother punished and some want her executed is incredibly disingenuous

So the doctors nurses adminstrators secretarial staff at the abortion clinic and maybe the medical waste disposal staff who carry away the "dead babies" should get life or in certain jurisdiction the death penalty right?

The woman who has an unwanted pregnancy after a drunken one night stand or has a fling with her neighbor or work colleague behind her husband's back or decides to have a termination because she has three kids and can't t cope with a fourth etc etc should NOT get life or a possible death sentence? What she did was "murder" right? That's what you believe right? So surely logic would tell you there should be the same punishment ad any other murder right?

Thankfully abortion is legal in England and other jurisdictions and women have the freedom to travel.

rjpf1980

osarusan wrote: »

Any chance you could give this shyte a rest?

If abortion was unavailable abroad and women were were prohibited from travelling for an abortion - the Irish people were asked in the 1990s if they would restrict the right to travel and the right to information - this is the type of regime that legally would have been enforced.

In an ideal world without legal abortion is this what pro-life people envision?

Depp

rjpf1980 wrote: »

So the doctors nurses adminstrators secretarial staff at the abortion clinic and maybe the medical waste disposal staff who carry away the "dead babies" should get life or in certain jurisdiction the death penalty right?

where did i say this? the doctor should have his license revoked and he should be punished, also we dont have capital punishment here so theres that...

rjpf1980 wrote: »

The woman who has an unwanted pregnancy after a drunken one night stand or has a fling with her neighbor or work colleague behind her husband's back or decides to have a termination because she has three kids and can't t cope with a fourth etc etc should NOT get life or a possible death sentence? What she did was "murder" right? That's what you believe right? So surely logic would tell you there should be the same punishment ad any other murder right?

an abortion is not a back up form of contraception and shouldn't be under any circumstances. Whatever way you look at it an abortion is the ending of a human life and that shouldn't be done cause you or your partner failed to use correct contraception. We as humans are not perfect and make many mistakes in our lives, we have to live with these mistakes its part of life.

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Thankfully abortion is legal in England and other jurisdictions and women have the freedom to travel.

Those are your views and I respect that, I agree women should have freedom to travel I just don't want it happening here with my tax money helping to fund it.

Dr Crayfish

A simple tarring and feathering would do maybe? And shave their heads?