Should schools be made accountable for bullying?

Airyfairy12

A young guy in my town committed suicide this week because of bullying in school. His death was entirely preventable, such a waste of a young life. Bullying in school causes depression, anxiety and a host of other mental illnesses yet many teachers and school staff ignore the problem. If schools were held accountable for bullying then maybe they'd take it more seriously.

Arghus

What exactly do you mean when you say "accountable"?

Airyfairy12

Arghus wrote: »

What exactly do you mean when you say "accountable"?

I mean should action be taken against a school that has repeated incidences of bullying within the school

Peregrinus

What kind of action? Taken by whom? With what outcome?

bearhugs

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

Airyfairy12

Peregrinus wrote: »

What kind of action? Taken by whom? With what outcome?

Fine them maybe? anything! Maybe it would encourage them to crack down on bullying

Airyfairy12

bearhugs wrote: »

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

Im not talking about social media, im talking about in school bullying

bearhugs

I know you are, I'm just saying that they go hand in hand. Bulling doesn't stop the minute a child walks out the school door in this day and age. Teachers can do their best to curb bullying that they are aware of on the school grounds, but they can't fully police it.

I agree with you that school staff should go above and beyond to stop bullying. I don't think it's as clear cut as you seem to think is all.

Airyfairy12

Adults can be fired from their jobs or brought to court for harassment for workplace bullying. Employers are required by law to comply with anti bullying policies which are considered part of health and safety regulations. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/health_safety_work.html

Why is it not the same for schools and teachers who are responsible for the students?

hairyslug

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Im not talking about social media, im talking about in school bullying

But it does expand out of school, the majority of the time, it will though have originated in the school.

They do need to take more responsibility with it, I have seen it in my own daughters school how a blind eye shown even after parents are reassured that it will be looked at.

How to punish the school, I don't know but yes, the school should be held accountable to what happens, emotionally or physically on their grounds.

Airyfairy12

bearhugs wrote: »

I know you are, I'm just saying that they go hand in hand. Bulling doesn't stop the minute a child walks out the school door in this day and age. Teachers can do their best to curb bullying that they are aware of on the school grounds, but they can't fully police it.

I agree with you that school staff should go above and beyond to stop bullying. I don't think it's as clear cut as you seem to think is all.

I dont think its clear cut but I know from my own days in school being bullied and teachers and school staff doing nothing about it. It still happens and kids are self harming and committing suicide because of it. Schools dont take action and the bullying persists.

Speedwell

Schools take responsibility for training the little half-broken colts in their care into young strong horses who can pull in teams. Practically every other aspect of life comes within their ambit. They address a child's mental, physical, emotional, and social health, and frequently spiritual matters as well. They stop food throwing in the cafeteria and talking in class when the teacher is talking; they teach safety while walking along the roadside, avoidance of illegal drugs, and a million other things in and out of the school building. Bullying seems like a very curious omission.

Peregrinus

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Why is it not the same for schools and teachers who are responsible for the students?

It is the same for schools, basically. Schools have a duty of care towards students, and part of that involves providing a safe environment for students.

The thing is, simply showing that bullying is happening in the school doesn't show that the school has failed in its duty. Schools are not expected to provide an absolute guarantee that no bullying will ever happen - how could they possibly guarantee that? - but to take reasonable steps to avoid the problem, and to address it when it arises. So if one pupil bullies another, the questions to be asked are things like - What did the school do to prevent a culture of bullying arising, or to equip bullied students to defend themselves? Are students equipped to recognise bullying when it occurs, and are they given strategies for dealing with it? Was this incidence of bullying reported to the school, and if so how did the school respond or address it?

Speedwell

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is the same for schools. Schools have a duty of care towards students, and part of that involves providing a safe environment for students.

The thing is, simply showing that bullying is happening in the school doesn't show that the school has failed in its duty. Schools are not expected to provide an absolute guarantee that no bullying will ever happen - how could they possibly guarantee that? - but to take reasonable steps to avoid the problem, and to address it when it arises. So if one pupil bullies another, the questions to be asked are things like - What did the school do to prevent a culture of bullying arising, or to equip bullied students to defend themselves? Are students equipped to recognise bullying when it occurs, and are they given strategies for dealing with it? Was this incidence of bullying reported to the school, and if so how did the school respond or address it?

I agree with everything you said, except that I'd add that they need to be much more proactive when the kids are actually at school, and they need to be equipped to be effective and fast responders when a child complains of bullying away from school. Bullying is abuse and the school is the arm of society that most nearly touches the child. So the school's response to bullying exemplifies the attitude of society toward the abused.

The_Kew_Tour

Yes if they did nothing about it if they knew about it.

schools have plenty of days off now these days with strikes even though teachers are well paid, but they seem to think they are a law above everyone else

Airyfairy12

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is the same for schools, basically. Schools have a duty of care towards students, and part of that involves providing a safe environment for students.

The thing is, simply showing that bullying is happening in the school doesn't show that the school has failed in its duty. Schools are not expected to provide an absolute guarantee that no bullying will ever happen - how could they possibly guarantee that? - but to take reasonable steps to avoid the problem, and to address it when it arises. So if one pupil bullies another, the questions to be asked are things like - What did the school do to prevent a culture of bullying arising, or to equip bullied students to defend themselves? Are students equipped to recognise bullying when it occurs, and are they given strategies for dealing with it? Was this incidence of bullying reported to the school, and if so how did the school respond or address it?

Exactly but schools don't do this, they turn a blind eye or give the bully a slap on the wrist and ignore the problem. Some schools have very strict bullying policies, bullies are called out, forced to stop or otherwise face serious consequences. Allot of schools dont have the same policies in place so theres a culture of bullying within the school. Holding schools accountable for repeated bullying that happens within the school might encourage them to take bullying more seriously, then maybe there'd be less young suicides and self harm.

Peregrinus

Yes. Schools need to be training kids about bullying before bullying happens. Kids need to understand that bullying will not be tolerated; they shouldn't find that out only afterthey have been engaged in bullying behaviours. And kids need to be equipped to recognise bullying when it happens to them, and they need to be confident that if they take the problem to the school, it will be taken seriously and not minimised or dismissed. Again, they need to understand this before they find themselves the victims of bullying.

Just like any other aspect of health and safety, half of the work lies in avoiding the problem arising in the first place, and the other half in responding effectively to it when, despite your efforts, it does. It's important in schools because immaturity, confusion, etc (a) makes kids more prone to engage in bullying behaviours, and (b) leaves them less well-equipped to be resilient when it happens to them. So schools should assume (a) that it will happen, and (b) that it may very seriously affect those to whom it does happen. Therefore, addressing it proactively should be a priority for them.

But, having said all that, I don't think you can simply "hold schools accountable for repeat bullying", if that means assume that, if there is repeat bullying, it is their fault. It may not be. Bullying is not like defective equipment or unsafe procedures, something entirely within the control of the school. Children are independent agents; they do make choices which authority figure encourage or tell them not to make. And the factors I have just pointed to - immaturity, insecurity, confusion, etc - are normal incidents of growing, and not something schools can magic away with a flick of the wand. And the biggest influence on the choices children make is not the school; it's the family. So, no matter how seriously the school takes the responsibility to tackle bullying and how effectively they work at it, they cannot guarantee to insulate every child for ever from being bullied.

spurious

Will somebody please think of the parents? Children do not lick it off the stones.

Speedwell

Because the biggest influence on children is the family, schools need to hold themselves responsible for enforcing social behavior when the child's family behaves badly.

Airyfairy12

spurious wrote: »

Will somebody please think of the parents? Children do not lick it off the stones.

Of course and not all children have decent parents that will come in and have words with the school principal, class teacher or bullies parents. Sometimes kids are really left alone to deal with it. The parents are always to blame for bully kids, the school has to be responsible in teaching them appropriate behaviour while in school, for their own sake and the sake of those they encounter. Kids are literally dying over this.

kneemos

Pretty sure schools have guidelines and is something they would be very aware of.

Speedwell

kneemos wrote: »

Pretty sure schools have guidelines and is something they would be very aware of.

Sure, one hopes so. But, having instituted those guidelines and made themselves responsible for teaching and enforcing them, do they also have accountability when their students and/or teachers (because teachers can be bullies too, of course) don't follow them? That is, can they be held liable?

kneemos

Speedwell wrote: »

Sure, one hopes so. But, having instituted those guidelines and made themselves responsible for teaching and enforcing them, do they also have accountability when their students and/or teachers (because teachers can be bullies too, of course) don't follow them? That is, can they be held liable?

Can't be held liable for someone else's actions.They can do their best to implement the school policy on bullying but be everywhere all the time.

Can you blame the Guards if someone gets murdered?

Dravokivich

Arghus wrote: »

What exactly do you mean when you say "accountable"?

This is something I've been pondering a while.

I know of a kid who was bullied quite a lot in a school. it had been reported to the school and not much action taken. The bullying intensified to the point the kid refused to go and parents had to look for another for him to go into. He subsequently has to repeat first year.

It's quite easy to feel that the bullied kid in that instance had been let down by the school.

Speedwell

kneemos wrote: »

Can't be held liable for someone else's actions.They can do their best to implement the school policy on bullying but be everywhere all the time.

Can you blame the Guards if someone gets murdered?

That's a fascinating question. Do the Gardai have a "duty of care" if a known murderer kills someone because they failed to take precautions? What part of the criminal justice system is tasked with teaching people strategies for avoiding committing crimes and for effective defense? I'm not sure the analogy doesn't crumble a bit when examined more closely.

andekwarhola

Very hard to implement unless you can catch them in the act?

Know somebody whose kid was being bullied badly in primary school. Kid was in bits over it. Principal called in both sets of parents ' to discuss it' and the parents of the bully just completely stonewalled him/them and denied that it would ever happen. Obviously the little fcuker didn't lick it off a stone.

Samaris

Some forms of bullying are absolutely clamped down on, mostly the obvious signs of physical abuse of someone (or when the kid snaps and punches out his tormentor and gets suspended for violence). I can't talk for all-boys schools, but I will say that in all-girls schools, bullying tends to be a lot more subtle than that and often a lot more vicious as teenagers are ridiculously pack animals and will join in. Nothing overt, just snideness, looks, cruel comments, maybe nicking things from a student so they get into trouble for not being ready in class. Nothing that can be easily reported, especially when it feels like everyone is doing it.

Teachers mostly probably think they want to get involved and stop all bullying - and generally, I think they do, it's a huge part of their job, socialising smaller growing demonic creatures. But when actually talking to a bit of a wet blanket of a kid who they might feel brings a lot of her trouble on herself, they may revert to the human status of "I don't want to be hated over this" and either avoid dealing with the bullies or, incredibly, even join in. You don't see it quite as much anymore, but in films from..oh, mid-nineties and before perhaps, the Wise Adult's advice to the kid being bullied is "you have to learn to defend yourself, they're cowards". Actually thump someone because they're tormenting you invisibly will get you punished though. But the outlook is still there under the surface that essentially, the kid's on their own unless a teacher or another student goes above and beyond. And it's accepted that even if they do, it probably won't solve everything and might make it worse.

I don't agree with this, but that's the sort of outlook I've seen around bullying in schools.

andekwarhola

Samaris wrote: »

Actually thump someone because they're tormenting you invisibly will get you punished though..

Personally, while I wouldn't actively glorify it, I'd be secretly happy enough to let my kid take a suspension or whatever if he cracked somebody who was bullying him and I'd try and support him.

In my experience schools take bullying claims very seriously. I know when I had cause (very minor) to approach my son's school they could not have taken the issue more seriously and went out of their way to sort it out.

I would look at it from the other angle btw. If you have an environment that continually tells teachers how useless they are, how overpaid they are, and how lazy they are - then they are going to ask themselves why they should bother doing anything other than what they are contractually obliged to do. I don't blame them

We could also pay them more. 30k a year (when they finally do get a job) is not enough to accept legal liability for bullying by someone else on your watch, or at least not for me it isn't, some might be desperate enough.

Peregrinus

Speedwell wrote: »

That's a fascinating question. Do the Gardai have a "duty of care" if a known murderer kills someone because they failed to take precautions? What part of the criminal justice system is tasked with teaching people strategies for avoiding committing crimes and for effective defense? I'm not sure the analogy doesn't crumble a bit when examined more closely.

I don't think the analogy stands up at all. Schools have a much higher degree of control over pupils than the guards do over members of the public, and a much higher degree of control over the school premises than the guards have over the country at large. Plus, creating an environment in which pupils will be safe, will grow and will flourish absolutely is a central part of what a school does. There's no analogous function for the guards. And they have an absolutely explicit duty of care towards students whereas the guards do not.

If you are looking for an analogy, probably a closer one - though it's still not great - is school:workplace. If you suffer homophobic or sexist or whatever bullying in the workplace and your employer, being made aware of the problem, does not take it seriously or attempt to address the issue, might you have a remedy against the employer? Yes, absolutely, you might. If things get so bad that you feel you have to leave, and a Tribunal is persuaded that that was a reasonable response to the situation you found yourself in, and that the situation was compounded or exacerbated by the employer's denial or refusal or failure to address the problem, then you're likely to succeed in an unfair dismissal action on the basis that you were constructively dismissed by your employer's failure to provide a safe working environment.

The parallel with the school isn't exact because the school also has obligations towards the bullying pupil, whose personal responsibility may be diminished by his immaturity or his own psychological issues. Schools can't simply expel you if they conclude that you're a problem that they'd rather not have to deal with. Whereas in a workplace, if you hit a colleague, that's it, you're gone, the same day. So schools do have more latitude than employers to address what is a very difficult problem. But, absolutely, they do have to address it, and vigorously. And if they don't, yes, they may incur liability.

hawkelady

kneemos wrote: »

Speedwell wrote: »

Sure, one hopes so. But, having instituted those guidelines and made themselves responsible for teaching and enforcing them, do they also have accountability when their students and/or teachers (because teachers can be bullies too, of course) don't follow them? That is, can they be held liable?[/

Can you blame the Guards if someone gets murdered?

If the murder happens in a Garda station then yes , they would have questions to answer...... Don't you think ?

Lackey

bearhugs wrote: »

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

Not true
I've seen several cases of students being suspended for online bullying
It can and is done
It's part of the school code of behaviour and outlines the consequences if the rules are broken
Parents and students sign it agreeing to the terms

OP I'm sorry to hear of this sad death in your area

razorblunt

I remember a conversation my parents had with me when I was 7 and going into 2nd class. They'd just been to some sort of Parent Induction night where the Principal made a statement saying that bullying was not tolerated in the school and there had been no reports of it in the previous school year.

Some parent stood up and declared that not to be true as her "son was put head first into a bin last year".
The Principal's response is to ask her why this was the first time he'd heard of it, the lad's teacher confirmed she didn't receive any report of it either. The guy told his Mam who didn't do anything about it until 5 months later on this night when her next child was starting.

The Teachers need some help too, I have friends who are teachers who said it can be easy to spot the "mean girls-esque" group and group thinkings but when they go outside the door the lose all sight of what's going on unless they're told. It's a tough position to be in with regards to accountability.

But schools are accountable and can be sued if negligence is shown.

I understand it has happened in the UK.

Like other claims against schools, eg. injuries to students when playing on school grounds, they are not easy cases.

freedominacup

bearhugs wrote: »

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

There have been a series of suspensions in my kids school for social media infractions in the past two years. They generally have the offending posts down in a few hours and the offenders feet don't touch the ground on their way out through the gate. This "it's impossible to police" line is just a cop out.

Op there should be massive repercussions for schools and staff in terms of funding cuts and suspensions for allowing persistent bullying to take place. It's very difficult to stop it completely but once notified/discovered it should be imperative that it is dealt with immeadiately.

freedominacup

freedominacup wrote: »

Op there should be massive repercussions for schools and staff in terms of funding cuts and suspensions for allowing persistent bullying to take place. It's very difficult to stop it completely but once notified/discovered it should be imperative that it is dealt with immeadiately.

How should it be dealt with?

Remember, these are children and teenagers. A lot of 'he said, she said' is par for the course. Proof is hard to come by. Yes there is CCTV but for obvious reasons its use is limited in schools, and it can't tell the full story.

Personally, if we have to go down the road of punishments for people who are not the bully themselves, I would start with the parents.

freedominacup

freedominacup wrote: »

Op there should be massive repercussions for schools and staff in terms of funding cuts and suspensions for allowing persistent bullying to take place. It's very difficult to stop it completely but once notified/discovered it should be imperative that it is dealt with immeadiately.

I think it may be harsh to punish a school and the other students collectively, either by cutting their funding or suspending teachers, for wrongs carried out by students. Plus it may be an extremely subjective matter, is bullying more prevalent in larger urban schools rather than smaller rural schools where all kids and families may know each other, would the be weighting of multiple smaller incidents versus one bad case etc.

Boom_Bap

The schools should not be punished. They should be supported to assist in tackling the problem.

More education (students and staff) and assistance is needed, not punishment of the educators.

Samaris

I suppose there is an element that things written on Facebook or Twitter leave a path. The message is still there (unless the poster has a sudden rush of common sense and deletes it), and can be seen by other people. There -is- the question of what do the teachers do then. We're still only just tackling the issue of how laws apply on the internet, and really, it comes down to if the principal is both knowledgeable about online harassment and feels it their duty to intervene as a responsible adult. A principal who doesn't understand the internet or how Fb/Twitter works, well, it's pretty easy to see how they wouldn't have the first idea of what to do about it and could very easily decide it's not the school's issue. Although they might get those sites banned on school computers.

It will probably improve as teachers who themselves grew up with online social networking gradually take over the top positions and make it part of their ethos, but right at the moment, as weird as it may seem, we're still actually only in the changeover period from a predominantly non-internet world to a predominantly connected one.

Not saying that this is right, I think it does need to be tackled more obviously and in and by schools as well as parents. We essentially allow teenagers and kids access to an anonymous Wild West and then get them to sort themselves out. Sure, I think we've all got examples of presumed adults acting the complete moron online, so expecting teenagers to show any more cop on is probably over-optimistic.

Widdershins

Yes!Parents entrust the care of their children to school staff. A child being abused, in the form of bullying, on the premises is a terrible breach of trust by the school. The fact that it was allowed to happen in the first place and the fact that it often continues unchecked, with many schools either ignoring it or denying it, mimimising its seriousness or claiming that they can't do anything. That's from experience, and I know of many parents who have had no success in getting schools to do something about it.

silverharp

schools should teach the psychology of teenager bullying, you could almost parody the big lad who is a bit dim who needs to compensate or the queen Bee who keeps her minions in line and uses social exclusion to bully the target. If all kids were aware of the games you could make the bully look like the oddball

Yurt2

Boom_Bap wrote: »

The schools should not be punished. They should be supported to assist in tackling the problem.

More education (students and staff) and assistance is needed, not punishment of the educators.

Disagree. The school I went to, bullying conducted by kids of families that were 'pillars of the community'; i.e from good hurling families or the sons of prominent local business people was routinely ignored or swept under the carpet. A lot of kids went through a lot of unnecessary hardship to keep the illusion of harmony in our school. Not to rock the boat etc. Very little of it was 'character forming' in the positive sense. The principle is still in situ, sitting on his oxter in denial about the type of characters he's churning out. The townies of course were treated in a far harsher fashion when stepping out of line.

Samaris

I'm going to put over a probably rather unpopular view; all I can say is that it's rooted in my own experience, having been bullied in both my schools over my rather un-fun school career.

There will always be bullying. It's inevitable. Kids are developing (and pretty much by figuring it out as they go) their earliest social networks and jockeying for social position. We see it in adults too, although they tend to be more polished about it, probably because they honed it in school.

Kids also develop at different rates. Children who are socially underdeveloped (as I was. I was pretty advanced in reasoning and what tends to be lumped under "intelligence", but I had the emotional intelligence of a peanut). The first few days in school can make or break your schooldays. The groups form quickly and anyone who isn't fast enough off the starting line can easily find themselves excluded. Once they -are- excluded, it's harder to get into a group, as they're starting off behind and with an element of "if no-one likes them, there must be something wrong with them". This attitude is kinda at the base of our social interactions and it's extremely hard to do anything about it.

It wasn't until I was well out of school and looking back on it (which I don't do often, because it's not a time I particularly enjoy remembering) that I had to admit that I didn't help myself much by being shy and "weird". This was a natural reaction to feeling disliked in school, or at least totally indifferented at. So it becomes a cycle. This part is difficult for teachers to respond to, but it's the basis for everything that follows after in many cases. Treating the symptoms after that isn't going to make a cure. Not that they shouldn't try anyway.

Boom_Bap

Yurt! wrote: »

Disagree. The school I went to, bullying conducted by kids of families that were 'pillars of the community'; i.e from good hurling families or the sons of prominent local business people was routinely ignored or swept under the carpet. A lot of kids went through a lot of unnecessary hardship to keep the illusion of harmony in our school. Not to rock the boat etc. Very little of it was 'character forming' in the positive sense. The principle is still in situ, sitting on his oxter in denial about the type of characters he's churning out. The townies of course were treated in a far harsher fashion when stepping out of line.

I'm not trying to disagree with you here, I'm trying to learn more.

If the students who are bullying, and the kids that are being bullied are more aware of what is going on, would that in theory not reduce the bullying?

Also, if the principal receive more education on the matter, would it not put him in a better position to combat.

With those 2 aspects working together, would that not reduce bullying?

I should also note that I was in schools in Dublin where there was alot of anonimity, that is where my backkground lies and would not have local families having influence in the running of a school.

Speedwell

Samaris wrote: »

I'm going to put over a probably rather unpopular view; all I can say is that it's rooted in my own experience, having been bullied in both my schools over my rather un-fun school career.

There will always be bullying. It's inevitable. Kids are developing (and pretty much by figuring it out as they go) their earliest social networks and jockeying for social position. We see it in adults too, although they tend to be more polished about it, probably because they honed it in school.

Kids also develop at different rates. Children who are socially underdeveloped (as I was. I was pretty advanced in reasoning and what tends to be lumped under "intelligence", but I had the emotional intelligence of a peanut). The first few days in school can make or break your schooldays. The groups form quickly and anyone who isn't fast enough off the starting line can easily find themselves excluded. Once they -are- excluded, it's harder to get into a group, as they're starting off behind and with an element of "if no-one likes them, there must be something wrong with them". This attitude is kinda at the base of our social interactions and it's extremely hard to do anything about it.

It wasn't until I was well out of school and looking back on it (which I don't do often, because it's not a time I particularly enjoy remembering) that I had to admit that I didn't help myself much by being shy and "weird". This was a natural reaction to feeling disliked in school, or at least totally indifferented at. So it becomes a cycle. This part is difficult for teachers to respond to, but it's the basis for everything that follows after in many cases. Treating the symptoms after that isn't going to make a cure. Not that they shouldn't try anyway.

There will always be workplace harassment. It's inevitable. Employees and managers are trying to protect the jobs they depend on and jockey for bonuses and promotions. We see it in children too, although they tend to be less polished about it, because they have the same need to maintain their status.

Employees are at different levels in their professional development. The first few days in a new job can potentially make or break your career. Teams and alliances form quickly and anyone who isn't fast enough off the starting line can easily find themselves excluded. Once they -are- excluded, it's harder to get into a group, as they're starting off behind and with an element of "if no-one likes them, there must be something wrong with them". This attitude is kinda at the base of our professional and social interactions and it's extremely hard to do anything about it.

It wasn't until I was retired and looking back on it (which I don't do often, because it's not a time I particularly enjoy remembering) that I had to admit that I didn't help myself much by being shy and "weird". This was a natural reaction to feeling disliked at work, or at least totally indifferented at. So it becomes a cycle. This part is difficult for managers to respond to, but it's the basis for everything that follows after in many cases. Treating the symptoms after that isn't going to make a cure. Not that they shouldn't try anyway.

We don't allow people to bully and harass and abuse each other in the workplace, but when it's kids it's more acceptable?

silverharp

Samaris wrote: »

I'm going to put over a probably rather unpopular view; all I can say is that it's rooted in my own experience, having been bullied in both my schools over my rather un-fun school career.

There will always be bullying. It's inevitable. Kids are developing (and pretty much by figuring it out as they go) their earliest social networks and jockeying for social position. We see it in adults too, although they tend to be more polished about it, probably because they honed it in school.

Kids also develop at different rates. Children who are socially underdeveloped (as I was. I was pretty advanced in reasoning and what tends to be lumped under "intelligence", but I had the emotional intelligence of a peanut). The first few days in school can make or break your schooldays. The groups form quickly and anyone who isn't fast enough off the starting line can easily find themselves excluded. Once they -are- excluded, it's harder to get into a group, as they're starting off behind and with an element of "if no-one likes them, there must be something wrong with them". This attitude is kinda at the base of our social interactions and it's extremely hard to do anything about it.

It wasn't until I was well out of school and looking back on it (which I don't do often, because it's not a time I particularly enjoy remembering) that I had to admit that I didn't help myself much by being shy and "weird". This was a natural reaction to feeling disliked in school, or at least totally indifferented at. So it becomes a cycle. This part is difficult for teachers to respond to, but it's the basis for everything that follows after in many cases. Treating the symptoms after that isn't going to make a cure. Not that they shouldn't try anyway.

Ive kids heading for teenage years and Ive no expectation that they ought to have a bullying free environment , its pretty much programmed into some teenagers based on where they are in the pecking order. I see it more in terms of explaining the lay of the land to kids who might be bullied, giving them a longer term perspective, give them strategies to avoid bullying or overcome it and turn a problem into a positive solution

Yurt2

There is a certain inevitability of a level of bullying in schools I agree. I am however firmly of the belief that a lot of Irish schools abdicate their responsibility when it comes to bullying, they need to be held responsible. A child has a right to go to school in a place where the management are at least trying to mitigate against bullying behaviour and maladaptive personality types. From my own experience in school, bullying only got dealt with when it came to the surface in acts of violence (kid snapping and lashing out, or some poor kid getting a hiding from feral thugs). There was zero attempt at instilling a culture of respect or kindness. In fact, the teachers had a barely concealed contempt for a lot of the kids (and their own jobs) and let mob rule take over, who cares if a kid has to switch schools because he was getting regularly bullied right?

This type of thing spills over to society and adulthood.

Samaris

Speedwell wrote: »

There will always be workplace harassment. It's inevitable.

...

We don't allow people to bully and harass and abuse each other in the workplace, but when it's kids it's more acceptable?

I said nowhere in that that it is acceptable, in fact, I emphasised at the end that adults do still have a duty to help students being bullied and do their best to put a stop to it. C'mon, Speedwell, you read my post pretty thoroughly, that was an unfair translation to put on it!

What I said was that kids will bully and be bullied as part and parcel of a large group of young people figuring out their social network, how to create one, how to stay -in- one, and how to advance or fall off the pecking order. And in my experience, certain types of kids tend to get picked on more because they are obviously different in some way. Yes, that holds true with adults also, but adults, in theory, have the added years and experience to not act on it. Adults in general also don't have the added obvious differences as between kids (primarily circling around puberty and associated mental and physical growth) That adults, one would expect, to bully less is obviously not true for all! It's more raw and more visible with children though, and it has a greater long-term effect on them too.

Nope, that post solves nothing. And maybe it sounds like victim-blaming, which isn't intended (although if it gives any pointers to which kids may be more likely to be bullied, that's something). But it's my own experience of it.

Discodog

I am with the OP. I would make the head teacher responsible just as the director of a company would be. It is up to the head to ensure that:

All of their staff are competent in recognising bullying & empathetic to the victims.

That all of the pupils are made aware of what constitutes bullying & what the consequences are.

That there are systems in the school to make it easy for pupils to report bullying.

I would create an offence of failing to take reasonable care if one doesn't already exist.

Years ago my friend's daughter attended a secondary school in England. They had sixth formers who volunteered to be listeners & had a badge to identify themselves. They did things like putting little post boxes in the toilets so that pupils could post anonymous notes if they were worried.

The school had 1200 pupils & bullying was unheard of & that was 30 years ago.

freedominacup

Samaris wrote: »

We're still only just tackling the issue of how laws apply on the internet, and really, it comes down to if the principal is both knowledgeable about online harassment and feels it their duty to intervene as a responsible adult. A principal who doesn't understand the internet or how Fb/Twitter works, well, it's pretty easy to see how they wouldn't have the first idea of what to do about it and could very easily decide it's not the school's issue. Although they might get those sites banned on school computers.

It will probably improve as teachers who themselves grew up with online social networking gradually take over the top positions and make it part of their ethos, but right at the moment, as weird as it may seem, we're still actually only in the changeover period from a predominantly non-internet world to a predominantly connected one.

This "shur wha' would we know about it" line doesn't fly any longer. No one currently working outside of manual labouring jobs has less than twenty years experience with computers and internet access as tools of their employment. Both vice principals in my sons school are younger than I am and I'm in my early forties. If schools "want" to police it the tools are there. If they want to police it they'll get huge support from parents. If they don't or their staffs don't want to police it then there should be serious repercussions for the school and staff if they are found to be negligent in this area. This should happen in a very public way so that parents of prospective students have it well flagged that a particular school is negligent in this area. No mercy whatsoever for schools which do not make prevention of bullying both online and in the school environs a priority.

jmayo

spurious wrote: »

Will somebody please think of the parents? Children do not lick it off the stones.

Exactly.
As well as holding schools and teachers responsible for what happens within their remit I would hold parents responsible.

Too many people fail to take responsibility in this country.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it may be harsh to punish a school and the other students collectively, either by cutting their funding or suspending teachers, for wrongs carried out by students. Plus it may be an extremely subjective matter, is bullying more prevalent in larger urban schools rather than smaller rural schools where all kids and families may know each other, would the be weighting of multiple smaller incidents versus one bad case etc.

Screw that for a game of cowboys.

I have known a few children who had to be take out of one school and moved because the school and teachers did shag all about the bullying of children.

It is too often glossed over and some mealy mouthed lip service is paid to some anti bullying policy that isn't worth as much as the loo roll in the toilets.

If the same excusatory system was left in place in places of employment we would still have bosses walking all over employees.
As someone else said why does it have to be different for children.

And let me tell you rural and small town schools can be the worse offenders where family connections or connections to the football team/hurling team give some people carte blanche to walk over everyone else often in the latter case with the tacit blessing of the sports man teachers.