Should schools be made accountable for bullying?

Musefan

I don't think schools should be responsible for the actions of a child in the first instance, but they should be accountable for the proper management of the situation. I think what is difficult is young people are often unclear of what might happen if they report an instance of bullying, and schools may have different ways of dealing with different behaviours. In my mind, as a researcher in the field, the ideal model would be to have a standardised approach across all schools whereby the young person, parents and teachers are all aware of how to recognise bullying and the procedures to follow after a report is made. I think schools should have to keep comprehensive data on each instance and the follow up resulting from the report, and submit this for audit to the DoE each year. I think school and community wide prevention programs should also be mandatory on a yearly basis and that reported bullying instances should help schools understand when their programs are not working. In addition, I think schools should bring parents together during the school year to discuss how the school responds to their reports & what they can do at home to support their child. I also think young people should have input into the school bullying policy to help build the idea that they as a community won't tolerate the behaviour, rather than it being something dictated from the top down.

pragmatic1

Yes. I think schools should absolutely have to do everything in their power to prevent bullying. Bullying can affect a young person's self esteem well into their adulthood and beyond. It's a very serious issue.

endacl

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Fine them maybe? anything! Maybe it would encourage them to crack down on bullying

Definitely living up to username...

Speedwell

Samaris wrote: »

I said nowhere in that that it is acceptable, in fact, I emphasised at the end that adults do still have a duty to help students being bullied and do their best to put a stop to it. C'mon, Speedwell, you read my post pretty thoroughly, that was an unfair translation to put on it!

What I said was that kids will bully and be bullied as part and parcel of a large group of young people figuring out their social network, how to create one, how to stay -in- one, and how to advance or fall off the pecking order. And in my experience, certain types of kids tend to get picked on more because they are obviously different in some way. Yes, that holds true with adults also, but adults, in theory, have the added years and experience to not act on it. Adults in general also don't have the added obvious differences as between kids (primarily circling around puberty and associated mental and physical growth) That adults, one would expect, to bully less is obviously not true for all! It's more raw and more visible with children though, and it has a greater long-term effect on them too.

Nope, that post solves nothing. And maybe it sounds like victim-blaming, which isn't intended (although if it gives any pointers to which kids may be more likely to be bullied, that's something). But it's my own experience of it.

Nah, not aimed at you, or at victims, but at a culture that seems to think that abuse of one group (in this case schoolkids) is more acceptable than abuse of another group (in this case adults) due basically to the lower-status group's perceived weaknesses and inability to hit back. We have actual laws in place to help people affected by abuse and harassment in the workplace, you might notice.

topmanamillion

How about parents take responsibility for their children and discipline them when they are shown to be bullying?

It's absolute nonsense to blame teachers for the actions of other peoples children.

There needs to be legal guidelines put in place for children who bully other children.
As it is there are very few reprucussions for offenders and very few legal outlets to follow in severe cases.

Sometimes "talk to an adult" doesn't work.

Decent Skin

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

A young guy in my town committed suicide this week because of bullying in school. His death was entirely preventable, such a waste of a young life. Bullying in school causes depression, anxiety and a host of other mental illnesses yet many teachers and school staff ignore the problem. If schools were held accountable for bullying then maybe they'd take it more seriously.

The only person who should be accountable for bullying is the bully.

Discodog

Decent Skin wrote: »

The only person who should be accountable for bullying is the bully.

Rubbish. There will always be people who act badly, especially if we allow them to. Many bullies are children who aren't accountable for the failings of their upbringing.

El_Duderino 09

bearhugs wrote:

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

In order to be accountable for bullying the school would need authority's to address bullying outside the school - at home, at sports events, during free time in the evening and weekend and holidays.

hairyslug wrote:

But it does expand out of school, the majority of the time, it will though have originated in the school.

That's a made up fact. You have no idea where children start to bully. If it were true it still wouldn't make the school responsible for bullying that happens elsewhere.

hairyslug wrote:

How to punish the school, I don't know but yes, the school should be held accountable to what happens, emotionally or physically on their grounds.

Unless you can somehow quantify the bullying that happens in the school and every other location, how could this happen?

What if the parenting style creates an aggressive bullying child? Should the teacher call out the family home and demand to observe the family to find the root of the problem? Should teachers be able to prescribe parenting styles to parents if it would cut down school bullying?

The problem is much bigger than the school. A more interesting question is whether parents should be held accountable for bullying. The answer is that bullying is bad but we don't have the collective will to eradicate it. The bullying policies that we have in schools and workplaces are better than nothing

Peregrinus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

In order to be accountable for bullying the school would need authority's to address bullying outside the school - at home, at sports events, during free time in the evening and weekend and holidays.

They already have that authority. Schools act in loco parentis, remember, meaning that the extent of their authority is similar to the extent of a parent's authority. Just as a child's parents can discipline a child for what the child does outside the home, so a school can discipline a student for what the student does outside the school. So, for example, a school could have - and many schools do have - a responsible internet use policy, in which cyberbullying of one student by another would be a disciplinary matter, regardless of where the student happened to be when the offending material was posted.

rjpf1980

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

A young guy in my town committed suicide this week because of bullying in school. His death was entirely preventable, such a waste of a young life. Bullying in school causes depression, anxiety and a host of other mental illnesses yet many teachers and school staff ignore the problem. If schools were held accountable for bullying then maybe they'd take it more seriously.

How was it preventable?
His classmates could have only been slagging him and he took it to heart because he was mentally ill. People with depression and anxiety are hypersensitive to criticism and that's that. How were a bunch of kids to know he would take his own life?
The teachers are not mental health professionals. They are teachers and they have a job to do. They can give out to kids punish them and raise their behavior with their parents etc but they can't police kids every moment of the day. Kids will form groups and cliques and the odd kids will be left out and slagging and teasing and pushing and shoving and mean carry on like wrecking a kids books or whatever are just part of school.
You can't save a kid from killing themselves as much as you imagine you can.

Speedwell

rjpf1980 wrote: »

You can't save a kid from killing themselves as much as you imagine you can.

And with an attitude like that, you never will.

rjpf1980

Speedwell wrote: »

And with an attitude like that, you never will.

You can counsel a kid you can give the kid on medication you can change schools you can encourage them to take up sports and try and teach them how to be assertive and make friends etc etc but you can't stop them from being hypersensitive due to their mental problems and killing themselves. You can't know the unpredictable and you can't stop it anymore than you can stop rain from falling.

Speedwell

rjpf1980 wrote: »

You can counsel a kid you can give the kid on medication you can change schools you can encourage them to take up sports and try and teach them how to be assertive and make friends etc etc but you can't stop them from being hypersensitive due to their mental problems and killing themselves. You can't know the unpredictable and you can't stop it anymore than you can stop rain from falling.

You go right on thinking fatalistically that there is nothing you can do to save a life so you might as well not try. Those of us who give a damn will be over here doing what we can (and saving lives, incidentally, but I won't waste my breath telling you how many no-longer-kids credit me with helping them over a rough spot or two).

El_Duderino 09

Speedwell wrote:

Because the biggest influence on children is the family, schools need to hold themselves responsible for enforcing social behavior when the child's family behaves badly.

This is obviously not the case.. parents have SOME responsibility too.

Peregrinus wrote:

They already have that authority. Schools act in loco parentis, remember, meaning that the extent of their authority is similar to the extent of a parent's authority. Just as a child's parents can discipline a child for what the child does outside the home, so a school can discipline a student for what the student does outside the school. So, for example, a school could have - and many schools do have - a responsible internet use policy, in which cyberbullying of one student by another would be a disciplinary matter, regardless of where the student happened to be when the offending material was posted.

I thought in loco parentis means that the school is in the position of a parent while the children were in school, plus school activities such as going to a match or school tour. I didn't think it applied at the weekend or during school holidays or after the children go home in the evening.

Cyber bullying is surely a special case because it leaves a paper trail si you can actually provide solid evidence for what happened. Most other forms of bullying are subtle and some involve negative action such as exclusion.

Can a school be held accountable for a child being bullied by exclusion on a Saturday morning at football training with the local club?

Speedwell

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is obviously not the case.. parents have SOME responsibility too.

Sorry, I had thought I'd been careful to say that it was the case when the family wasn't adequate.

mariaalice

Some schools do deal with it better than other, I know of a school where at the merest hint of bullying 3 pupils were suspended for 3 days each, but that doesn't stop bullying, constant awareness not just a talk at the beginning of the year should be the norm. How are school suppose to monitor social media 24 hour a day? or what about the school bus?.

Schools could got with the motive means and opportunity theory, you will never stop the motive it seem to be something about human nature( society seems to be very reluctant to exam that ) but you can do something about the means and opportunity apparently a lot of bullying occurs in the hallway, lockers and ques in schools, so arrange the environment better.

Bullies seem to fall in two categories those with an inflated sense of themselves and those who feel very inadequate about themselves use power over an other as a way of making themselves feel better about themselves.

El_Duderino 09

Speedwell wrote:

You go right on thinking fatalistically that there is nothing you can do to save a life so you might as well not try. Those of us who give a damn will be over here doing what we can (and saving lives, incidentally, but I won't waste my breath telling you how many no-longer-kids credit me with helping them over a rough spot or two).

I don't think rgpf 1980 said you shouldn't try. In fact they listed a good few approaches that you should try

Speedwell

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't think rgpf 1980 said you shouldn't try. In fact they listed a good few approaches that you should try

Yes, and wound up by saying that there was basically nothing you could do to predict or stop it anyway... which is literally "dead wrong".

Tombo2001

rjpf1980 wrote: »

How was it preventable?
His classmates could have only been slagging him and he took it to heart because he was mentally ill. People with depression and anxiety are hypersensitive to criticism and that's that. How were a bunch of kids to know he would take his own life?
The teachers are not mental health professionals. They are teachers and they have a job to do. They can give out to kids punish them and raise their behavior with their parents etc but they can't police kids every moment of the day. Kids will form groups and cliques and the odd kids will be left out and slagging and teasing and pushing and shoving and mean carry on like wrecking a kids books or whatever are just part of school.
You can't save a kid from killing themselves as much as you imagine you can.

That's getting into the realm of victim blaming.

The OP has told us that (I) the kid was being bullied and (II) the kid committed suicide. Most reasonably people could see there is a potential connection between the two.

El_Duderino 09

Speedwell wrote:

Sorry, I had thought I'd been careful to say that it was the case when the family wasn't adequate.

Then it's a state issue but why the school? You're talking about turning schools into a cross between G4S, MI5, social workers and Mary Poppins. G4S for security in school, MI5 to investigate any suspicious parents and make sure they are doing a good enough job. Mary Poppins and social workers to deal with parents an children outside of the school and chaperone children so they don't get bullied anywhere ever. Will They have time to teach?

Bullying has always been around but now we are getting serious about taking a radical approach to stamping it out. You can't just expect teachers to happily take on this huge new role of social worker and guardian angel

El_Duderino 09

Speedwell wrote:

Yes, and wound up by saying that there was basically nothing you could do to predict or stop it anyway... which is literally "dead wrong".

They said you can do those things and still not prevent ALL cases of suicide. Not that you shouldn't ever try. I think you're the only one saying you should bother.

rjpf1980

Tombo2001 wrote: »

That's getting into the realm of victim blaming.

The OP has told us that (I) the kid was being bullied and (II) the kid committed suicide. Most reasonably people could see there is a potential connection between the two.

Bullying isn't right but bullying victims do attract it.

Tombo2001

So we are nearly 6 pages into this thread.

Has anyone bothered going to the Dept of Education website to see what the policy on bullying is?

Speedwell

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Then it's a state issue but why the school? You're talking about turning schools into a cross between G4S, MI5, social workers and Mary Poppins. G4S for security in school, MI5 to investigate any suspicious parents and make sure they are doing a good enough job. Mary Poppins and social workers to deal with parents an children outside of the school and chaperone children so they don't get bullied anywhere ever. Will They have time to teach?

Bullying has always been around but now we are getting serious about taking a radical approach to stamping it out. You can't just expect teachers to happily take on this huge new role of social worker and guardian angel

I think what I'd actually said is that school is the largest influence on a child after the family.

Little CuChulainn

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Adults can be fired from their jobs or brought to court for harassment for workplace bullying. Employers are required by law to comply with anti bullying policies which are considered part of health and safety regulations. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/health_safety_work.html

Why is it not the same for schools and teachers who are responsible for the students?

Why is it the teachers fault? Teachers are primarily there to teach. Surely the parents who raise the kid should be the first port of call? a teacher only sees a kid for a few hours a day. What exactly can they do in those few hours to override what the kid will experience at home and how they have been raised to date?

Yes teachers have a role to play in identifying bullying incidents and reporting them but the people who should be required to take action first and foremost are the parents of the children involved. If that does not work then they should be looking at counseling, suspensions or even expulsions for the kids involved.

mariaalice

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Bullying isn't right but bullying victims do attract it.

The wrong way to look at it, why is society so reluctant to look at the issue from a psychological point of view, why is the bully not asked to consider their manipulative behaviour in taking pleasure in having power over someone else and just plain told to stop and that they could be committing an offence.

Extreme sensitivity in some people is a issue and it is something that they should have counselling for, but its should not be conflated with bullying.

El_Duderino 09

Speedwell wrote:

I think what I'd actually said is that school is the largest influence on a child after the family.

That's not all you said.

Speedwell wrote:

Because the biggest influence on children is the family, schools need to hold themselves responsible for enforcing social behavior when the child's family behaves badly.

You also said that the school should hold myself responsible for enforcing social behaviour when the child's family behaves badly.

I disagree and I have no idea why a school should be able to find out that information about the family and how the school should be held accountable for 'enforcing social behaviour'.

That's way beyond the remit of a school and way outside the training of teachers

Peregrinus

Tombo2001 wrote: »

So we are nearly 6 pages into this thread.

Has anyone bothered going to the Dept of Education website to see what the policy on bullying is?

You could guess it without going there. The Dept of Ed position is that every primary and post-primary school should have, and should implement, an anti-bullying policy, and should review both the policy and its implementation regularly.

But the question raised in this thread is not whether schools should have anti-bullying policies - that's a no-brainer, really - but whether they should have legal liability for injuries inflicted by bullying. The Department doesn't really have a position on that because that's a matter for the courts, not the Department. But I think if a victim of bullying sued the school for failing to discharge its duty of care to him, and the school turned out not to have an anti-bullying strategy or had a strategy that fell signficantly short of what the Department's extensive guidance suggests is appropriate, that would be a relevant factor in considering whether the school had discharged its duty of care.

Peregrinus

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Bullying isn't right but bullying victims do attract it.

Yes, and women might not suffer so much sexual harassment if they weren't so damned attractive, the little teases. :rolleyes: But if I was an employer defending a claim based on sexual harassment in the workplace, I wouldn't run that defence.

Tombo2001

Peregrinus wrote: »

You could guess it without going there. The Dept of Ed position is that every primary and post-primary school should have, and should implement, an anti-bullying policy, and should review both the policy and its implementation regularly.

But the question raised in this thread is not whether schools should have anti-bullying policies - that's a no-brainer, really - but whether they should have legal liability for injuries inflicted by bullying. The Department doesn't really have a position on that because that's a matter for the courts, not the Department. But I think if a victim of bullying sued the school for failing to discharge its duty of care to him, and the school turned out not to have an anti-bullying strategy or had a strategy that fell signficantly short of what the Department's extensive guidance suggests is appropriate, that would be a relevant factor in considering whether the school had discharged its duty of care.

Clearly the answer is no.

However, if you read the guidelines......you will see that each school is required to have a documented Intervention Strategy for bullying which it is required to apply consistently where bullying occurs. So perhaps the issue arises where the Intervention Strategy has not been followed, or where they don't have an intervention strategy in the first place.

Point I would make though, is that the onus is ultimately on the parents to make sure the Intervention Strategy is there, and that it is followed. No point in finding out after the event that the Principal doesn't know how to handle bullying.

seamus

Speedwell wrote: »

We don't allow people to bully and harass and abuse each other in the workplace, but when it's kids it's more acceptable?

This is kind of the key question we have to ask.

I think it's fair to say that children are idiots so to hold them rigidly to the same standards as you would a person in the workplace is a bit overboard.

But that doesn't mean anything goes, obviously.

Workplace bullying is still a problem, but it's really only in the last 20/30 years that we've actively moved to stamp it out. In the 70s or 80s, if your boss was a bully or a bit of a lech, you just kind of had to get on with it, or leave. There was no recourse, he was the boss. And society would tell you to get over it and just get on with it.

Schools are still stuck in that place. School bullying is to a certain extent still seen as a rite of passage, something that happens everywhere and you just have to suck it up.*
We need to move on from this. Students who are bullied need to be encouraged to report every instance, and schools need to get tough on it. A proper disciplinary system with expulsion for repeat offenders. None of this face-to-face discussion nonsense when it's clear it's not an argument but actual bullying. Every violent incident should be reported to the Gardai, as a matter of policy.

And incidents outside the school need to be treated just as seriously. A lot of schools will say "not my problem" if outside incident are reported, so the more vicious bullies will wait until after school to take action against their victims. Schools need to take ownership of every incident, 24/7, during the school year.

*There is a known "rite of passage" bias, where people in authority will require those coming up the ladder behind them to undergo the same hardships they had to endure, even when they serve no real purpose or are even counter-productive.
This has been proven especially in interviews - even when interviewers are told that their interview techniques have no merit, they continue to use them on the basis that the interviewer had to endure the same questions and challenges when they joined

Peregrinus

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Clearly the answer is no.

However, if you read the guidelines......you will see that each school is required to have a documented Intervention Strategy for bullying which it is required to apply consistently where bullying occurs. So perhaps the issue arises where the Intervention Strategy has not been followed, or where they don't have an intervention strategy in the first place.

Point I would make though, is that the onus is ultimately on the parents to make sure the Intervention Strategy is there, and that it is followed. No point in finding out after the event that the Principal doesn't know how to handle bullying.

Well, no. The onus is very much on the school to have, and operate, a strategy. If they haven't got one, or don't follow it, "parents never demanded it!" won't be any kind of defence or excuse. As a parent you are entitled to expect that the school has, and follows, a strategy. Of course you can enquire into that if you want to, but the school should have one whether you enquire or not, and if the matter does end up in the courts that's certainly how the courts will approach it.

Burial.

Schools have an extensive anti bullying policy that is continuously refined and reviewed and bullying is a very common topic both informally and formally in the staff room. Each teacher will obviously make their own notes on suspicions of bullying occurring in the classroom and try and rectify it there and cross referencing between the teachers on yard duty happens too. And phone calls home to bring in the parents are very common. It's a very precise and structured system that is mandatory in every school now. I hate when people say "from my experience nothing was done", that's not to say it hasn't changed since then, and it has. Kids are even being extensively instructed about online security and safety, something which was alien only a few years ago. Times change, don't tar everything with the brush that was painting back in the stone age. And whats more is that in person bullying is becoming rarer and rarer due to the implementation of the anti bullying policies which is a reason why cyber bullying is so prevalent, but there's little to nothing a school and it's staff can do there. Let's be realistic here.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

And incidents outside the school need to be treated just as seriously. A lot of schools will say "not my problem" if outside incident are reported, so the more vicious bullies will wait until after school to take action against their victims. Schools need to take ownership of every incident, 24/7, during the school year.

So if a child (who happens to go to a school) is bullied by another child (who also goes to a school) outside of school hours, it is the school's legal responsibility to do something about it?

How exactly would that work when a school has precisely zero powers over children outside school hours?

It is very easy to say 'schools' need to do this and do that. The reality is that to make that happen they need more resources and more powers. It would be absolutely outrageous to make schools and teachers legally responsible for bullying with the resources and powers they currently have.

And this returns to the obvious argument that is someone is going be made legally liable for the behaviour of a child, that person should be the parent before the school.

Speedwell

Deleted User wrote: »

And this returns to the obvious argument that is someone is going be made legally liable for the behaviour of a child, that person should be the parent before the school.

What liability can you assign to a parent who is not only not present when the incident happens but could have had no influence over the situation at all, unlike someone who is actually present and responsible for the location, the policies, and training of the people involved, like the school and its staff?

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

What liability can you assign to a parent who is not only not present when the incident happens but could have had no influence over the situation at all, unlike someone who is actually present and responsible for the location, the policies, and training of the people involved, like the school and its staff?

"Someone"?

Who is this person who is present? Bullying doesn't take place when teachers are present, they are smarter than that (the bullies, not the teachers).

"Responsible for the location". This is an interesting one. If my child reports bullying whilst in the Jervis centre are they legally liable? Why not if schools should be? Where does this logic stop?

And lastly, the idea that a parent "can have no influence over the situation at all" - REALLY?

Speedwell

Deleted User wrote: »

"Someone"?

Who is this person who is present? Bullying doesn't take place when teachers are present, they are smarter than that (the bullies, not the teachers).

"Responsible for the location". This is an interesting one. If my child reports bullying whilst in the Jervis centre are they legally liable? Why not if schools should be? Where does this logic stop?

And lastly, the idea that a parent "can have no influence over the situation at all" - REALLY?

Who is responsible for a shop if you slip and fall while there are no staff members present?

Who is responsible for a location if you are required to attend and something happens to you while you are there?

And, yes, REALLY.

silverharp

Deleted User wrote: »

And this returns to the obvious argument that is someone is going be made legally liable for the behaviour of a child, that person should be the parent before the school.

but kids have to be given space because they aren't fully responsible beings yet. Parents should be involved for sure but more in terms of social pressure. At the end of the day most bullying is under the radar, you cant make anyone legally responsible because someone doesn't like a particular child.
Things like repeated physical violence should lead in the end to expulsion if a kid is uncontrollable

Speedwell

If you can hold a workplace responsible for "hostile work environment", there is no reason--NONE--why you can't hold a school liable for "hostile school environment".

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

Who is responsible for a shop if you slip and fall while there are no staff members present?

Who is responsible for a location if you are required to attend and something happens to you while you are there?

And, yes, REALLY.

If I slip and fall in a shop I am responsible. Who do you think is responsible?

I think parents have a large amount of influence on the behaviour of their own children, you appear to believe they have none, I find that completely bizarre but there you go

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

If you can hold a workplace responsible for "hostile work environment", there is no reason--NONE--why you can't hold a school liable for "hostile school environment".

There are lots of reasons.

Reason 1: Schools do not have the power to exclude students on the basis of what most employers would consider 'gross misconduct' leading to immediate dismissal.

twowheelsonly

IMO teachers should be able to develop strategies to counteract bullying such as mixing up groups / teams during school activities, pointing out the strengths of each group member etc and making them interact.

I've had two cases of it with my own kids. In the first, whilst in Primary School aged about 10, my oldest fella was the bully. We obviously didn't have a clue until the teacher called me in on it. I dealt with it the same day by giving my own fella a tongue lashing and calling out the young fella that he and others had been picking on. I made them shake hands and told my fella that he was now this fellas minder and he was to keep an eye out for any other kids that were being bullied and to mind them as well or to report it. The bullying in his class literally stopped that day. I still see that teacher regularly through football and he always calls me the fella that should have been a teacher

In the second instance a child of mine was bullied by a Staff member !!! It was insidious sneaky mind games belittling her and eating into her self confidence. At first I thought it was just a change from Primary to Secondary and that it was other girls that were undermining her Eventually she was refusing to go to school and crying when I made her go. It's a long story, that took 3 years to resolve, and only for the bravery of a couple of SNAs' who were willing to speak out might have gone on even longer. To see the Board of Management and others in the school close ranks was disgusting. Once they started that then no way was I letting it go or changing schools. This went all the way to the Dept of Ed and opened up a super-sized can of worms for the school, the details of which are frightening and can't be disclosed here. Suffice to say that honesty won out but left a massive trail of destruction behind.

Speedwell

Deleted User wrote: »

If I slip and fall in a shop I am responsible. Who do you think is responsible?

Your solicitor will have a different answer to that if you ever have a slip-and-fall injury in a shop.

I think parents have a large amount of influence on the behaviour of their own children, you appear to believe they have none, I find that completely bizarre but there you go

I don't know if you are a parent or not, but you are very naive and you must have been a very cowed child yourself. Parents have a different influence over children when they are present, that they do not have when they are not present.

Speedwell

Deleted User wrote: »

There are lots of reasons.

Reason 1: Schools do not have the power to exclude students on the basis of what most employers would consider 'gross misconduct' leading to immediate dismissal.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/BehaviourandDiscipline/SuspensionExpulsion/

Widdershins

Deleted User wrote: »

There are lots of reasons.

Reason 1: Schools do not have the power to exclude students on the basis of what most employers would consider 'gross misconduct' leading to immediate dismissal.

Don't they expel students from time to time? Or does that not happen anymore?

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

Your solicitor will have a different answer to that if you ever have a slip-and-fall injury in a shop.

I don't know if you are a parent or not, but you are very naive and you must have been a very cowed child yourself. Parents have a different influence over children when they are present, that they do not have when they are not present.

I've slipped many times in my life and never felt the need to go running to a solicitor. Now, if the shop had spilled oil all over the floor and not bothered to clear it up or put out a sign, I might view that differently. But that's not the question you were asking.

I have three children. Your contention appears to be that parents of children (and I quote) "could have no influence over the situation at all" - just because they are not there. That is a pathetic cop out and just not true. I take responsibility for my children's behaviour, I wish others did too.

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/BehaviourandDiscipline/SuspensionExpulsion/

Did you actually read the link?

I know students CAN be expelled, my point is that they cannot be expelled in the same way employees can be dismissed in instances of gross misconduct.

Speedwell

From the DES document Anti-Bullying Procedures for Primary and Post-Primary Schools

5.5 Prevention of harassment

5.5.1 Schools have an obligation under equality legislation to take such steps as are reasonably practicable to prevent harassment and sexual harassment. Equality legislation prohibits harassment on any of the nine grounds: gender including transgender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race and membership of the Traveller community. Under equality legislation, sexual harassment is also prohibited. These prohibitions apply to all aspects of school life, for example classrooms, sport fields or school tours.

5.5.2 Schools may not permit pupils to harass other pupils. This prohibition also applies to staff or anyone who visits the school including parents, visiting sports teams etc. Under equality legislation, schools may be liable for harassment committed by an employee in the course of their work, whether or not it was done with the school’s knowledge or approval. Schools may also be liable for harassment committed by people acting on their behalf who are not employees.

5.5.3 All schools are required to confirm in their anti-bullying policy that the school will, in accordance with its obligations under equality legislation, take all such steps that are reasonably practicable to prevent the sexual harassment of pupils or staff or the harassment of pupils or staff on any of the nine grounds i.e. gender including transgender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race and membership of the Traveller community.

Also:

6.6 Effective supervision and monitoring of pupils

6.6.1 It is the responsibility of school management in conjunction with staff and pupils to develop a system under which good supervisory and monitoring measures are in place both to prevent and deal with bullying behaviour. Good supervision and monitoring systems also facilitate early intervention. Such measures might include appropriate supervision of school activities on a rota basis. The identification of “hot-spots” and “hot- times” can be very beneficial in preventing and dealing with bullying in school. All pupils and in particular senior pupils can be seen as a resource to assist in countering bullying.

Student councils, where applicable, and other school clubs and societies can also be very important in this regard. Non-teaching staff should also contribute and be part of the process to counter bullying behaviour in schools. In addition, strategies and measures need to be developed to involve all parents.

6.6.2 The school’s anti-bullying policy must confirm that appropriate supervision and monitoring policies and practices are in place to both prevent and deal with bullying behaviour.

Any issues of liability will hinge upon the policy requirements set forth in this official document.

irish bloke

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Adults can be fired from their jobs or brought to court for harassment for workplace bullying. Employers are required by law to comply with anti bullying policies which are considered part of health and safety regulations. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/health_safety_work.html

Why is it not the same for schools and teachers who are responsible for the students?

Agree totally, Teachers/Schools are getting away with turning a blind eye to bullying for too long. Maybe if they took more of an interest and were more proactive about eradicating bullying, we wouldn't bo so opposed to their increased pay demands