Should schools be made accountable for bullying?

The_Kew_Tour

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

When was the last day schools had a day off due to strike action?

2 days in recent memory.
Does 2 mean "plenty" to you?

Striking is a last resort when a group of professionals are not being not listened to.

2 days too may.

and for what?

Little CuChulainn

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

2 days too may.

and for what?

Probably for better working conditions.

The_Kew_Tour

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Probably for better working conditions.

working conditions?

what type of working conditions?

222233

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

A young guy in my town committed suicide this week because of bullying in school. His death was entirely preventable, such a waste of a young life. Bullying in school causes depression, anxiety and a host of other mental illnesses yet many teachers and school staff ignore the problem. If schools were held accountable for bullying then maybe they'd take it more seriously.

If there is evidence available from other students which indicates that the school were aware and did not act then they most certainly should be held accountable.

They aren't just paid to teach children, they are also there to protect them.

Little CuChulainn

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

working conditions?

what type of working conditions?

The levels of assaults on teachers are rising. They are expected to do more work outside of their regular duties. They are expected to introduce a new curriculum without proper training and time. Those are the ones that come to mind. I'm sure there's more.

4ensic15

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The levels of assaults on teachers are rising. They are expected to do more work outside of their regular duties. They are expected to introduce a new curriculum without proper training and time. Those are the ones that come to mind. I'm sure there's more.

Teachers did enough assaulting in their time. What goes around comes around. Now they are moaning about having to do a couple of hours work here and there out of their extensive free time. Most other people have to work more hours without pay in a month than teachers do in a year.

Little CuChulainn

4ensic15 wrote: »

Teachers did enough assaulting in their time. What goes around comes around.

Probably one of the more retarded comments I've read on boards. Do you also still blame the English for 700 years of oppression?

4ensic15 wrote: »

Now they are moaning about having to do a couple of hours work here and there out of their extensive free time.

Good for them. They are employed for a certain job. If their employer wants them to go beyond that they need to pay for it.

4ensic15 wrote: »

Most other people have to work more hours without pay in a month than teachers do in a year.

No they don't.

4ensic15

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

. Do you also still blame the English for 700 years of oppression?

Who do you blame?

Little CuChulainn

4ensic15 wrote: »

Who do you blame?

Nobody, everyone involved is dead.

4ensic15

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Nobody, everyone involved is dead.

Not everbody involved is dead. Anyway, being dead is no excuse. they did it.

Little CuChulainn

4ensic15 wrote: »

Not everbody involved is dead. Anyway, being dead is no excuse. they did it.

Who did? You can't seriously blame the English population of today for the actions of their government a century ago? How far back do you go with this blame game?

4ensic15

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Who did? You can't seriously blame the English population of today for the actions of their government a century ago? How far back do you go with this blame game?

The English did it. I go back to 1167. The current generations of the English endorse what their ancestors did. They still tell lies about it. Why are ground rents still being paid to English landlords and their lackeys?

MRnotlob606

Schools need to do more about bullying. I remember being bullied in primary school and the teacher did nothing. Probably because the perpetrators were from well-to do families. It should also be recognised that teachers can also be bullies, as can students. The whole fundamental conception of bullying needs to change in Irish schools in my opinion.

Little CuChulainn

4ensic15 wrote: »

The English did it. I go back to 1167. The current generations of the English endorse what their ancestors did. They still tell lies about it. Why are ground rents still being paid to English landlords and their lackeys?

You must be just filled with hate. The English did it back then but they are not the same English that exist today. In the same way, the teachers who were physically violent in the past are not the same teachers that are being assaulted in classrooms today.

4ensic15

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You must be just filled with hate. The English did it back then but they are not the same English that exist today. In the same way, the teachers who were physically violent in the past are not the same teachers that are being assaulted in classrooms today.

The same genes are present in the English of today. present day teachers are the successors of those who went before them but there was gradual change and as each new teacher was inducted, they became contaminated by those already there. The original name for a teacher in the national School system was a "bum bruiser". You can cover the spots but you can't change the leopard.

Little CuChulainn

4ensic15 wrote: »

The same genes are present in the English of today. present day teachers are the successors of those who went before them but there was gradual change and as each new teacher was inducted, they became contaminated by those already there. The original name for a teacher in the national School system was a "bum bruiser". You can cover the spots but you can't change the leopard.

You blame people for actions committed by their genetic ancestors? What the **** is wrong with you? I can see there is no reasoning with someone with such a big chip on their shoulder.

4ensic15

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You blame people for actions committed by their genetic ancestors? What the **** is wrong with you? I can see there is no reasoning with someone with such a big chip on their shoulder.

You mean you can't fault the reasoning so you attack the person.

Little CuChulainn

4ensic15 wrote: »

You mean you can't fault the reasoning so you attack the person.

There is no reason in your position. You hate people based on their ancestry, genetics and job titles.

4ensic15

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no reason in your position. You hate people based on their ancestry, genetics and job titles.

The Irish tradition was that when a person committed a crime, the family had to make reparation. It is entirely genetic. Jobs were held by families so were entirely genetic. I follow native Irish traditions, unlike English apologists and lapdogs.

hatrickpatrick

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Exactly but schools don't do this, they turn a blind eye or give the bully a slap on the wrist and ignore the problem. Some schools have very strict bullying policies, bullies are called out, forced to stop or otherwise face serious consequences. Allot of schools dont have the same policies in place so theres a culture of bullying within the school. Holding schools accountable for repeated bullying that happens within the school might encourage them to take bullying more seriously, then maybe there'd be less young suicides and self harm.

This is it. Three serious bullying incidents and people should get expelled, end of conversation.

Wibbs

4ensic15 wrote: »

The Irish tradition was that when a person committed a crime, the family had to make reparation. It is entirely genetic. Jobs were held by families so were entirely genetic.

Civilised humanity have since at least the Enlightenment realised that this was an extremely stupid premise best left in the dark ages of ignorance and bronze age thinking and religions and changed laws and perceptions accordingly. Never mind that I don't think "genetic" has the meaning you think it does.

The English did it. I go back to 1167.

You do realise they were Scandinavian French? And that they screwed over the English just as badly if not worse. There was little of the "more English than the English themselves" going on over there. Never mind that so called "English" kings couldn't and didn't speak the native language for centuries after William the Conquerer jammed an arrow in Harold's eye. Richard the Lionheart spoke French and avoided hanging out in England as much as possible(after he was crowned, for less than a year), instead preferring France. What is puzzling to me, even daft, is that so many English people see those Normans as "their own", when they fcuked them over and raped their land and people for centuries. That's before we get to the other foreign powers that have ruled over them.

#freeadvice You need to read more books.

Little CuChulainn wrote:

Probably one of the more retarded comments I've read on boards.

Oh she/he's the gift that keeps on giving alright.

Little CuChulainn

4ensic15 wrote: »

The Irish tradition was that when a person committed a crime, the family had to make reparation. It is entirely genetic. Jobs were held by families so were entirely genetic. I follow native Irish traditions, unlike English apologists and lapdogs.

Of course you do.

devnull

The problem is as well is a lot of bullies are very sneaky with how they do it and very "cute" to put it bluntly, often when I was at school I saw a number of kids getting bullied and a lot of the time it was one kid doing most of the bullying and the other kids being his lackeys and sidekicks who just used to support him.

Often what used to happen is that it was very hard to prove a kid was being bullied because there would be about 3-4 kids who would back up the bullies version of events and little to support what the bullied kid had to say as they were normally isolated by the gang.

Often what used to happen is someone would get bullied for a long period, would lash out in response and would end up the ones in trouble.

Calahonda52

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You must be just filled with hate. The English did it back then but they are not the same English that exist today. .

While I don't agree with all our learned friend 4ensic15 has penned, he has a point, up to a point.

I always thought it started in 1167 so we are 750 up to 1916

The Tories are pretty much acolytes of Cromwell et al, in suits.

Just look at the whole NI situation, Bloody Sunday, Guildford, Dublin & Monaghan etc.
Then back up to the Famine and so on, forwards or backwards, it doesn't matter.

All this stuff about the Queen coming over with the cupla focal for the snivelling exclusive guest list with their snouts in the trough is just window dressing.

And, as an aside, we think the US of A is our friend: Geitner shafted us as a people for the 64 bill bail out, an act which has, is having, and will have an impact similar to what the English did here from 1167.

I am sure we could come up with an event or two like the aftermath of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Anthropoid

The_Kew_Tour

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

working conditions?

what type of working conditions?

The levels of assaults on teachers are rising. They are expected to do more work outside of their regular duties. They are expected to introduce a new curriculum without proper training and time. Those are the ones that come to mind. I'm sure there's more.

I'm not saying assaults don't happen but let's not make teachers out to be firemen or search and rescue people who put their lives on line and many Don't get paid.

Work overtime? They are off for 4-5 months a year for love of God!!!!!!

4ensic15

Wibbs wrote: »

Civilised humanity have since at least the Enlightenment realised that this was an extremely stupid premise best left in the dark ages of ignorance and bronze age thinking and religions and changed laws and perceptions accordingly. Never mind that I don't think "genetic" has the meaning you think it does.

More English propaganda.

Wibbs wrote: »

You do realise they were Scandinavian French? And that they screwed over the English just as badly if not worse. There was little of the "more English than the English themselves" going on over there. Never mind that so called "English" kings couldn't and didn't speak the native language for centuries after William the Conquerer jammed an arrow in Harold's eye. Richard the Lionheart spoke French and avoided hanging out in England as much as possible(after he was crowned, for less than a year), instead preferring France. What is puzzling to me, even daft, is that so many English people see those Normans as "their own", when they fcuked them over and raped their land and people for centuries. That's before we get to the other foreign powers that have ruled over them.
.

Only a few hundred Normans moved over to england in 1066 and afterwards. they immedialtely began to marry into the native population as they had done in France. There is virtually no Scandanavian genetic legacy in Britain. The English king was given the Lordship of Ireland by the pope and they came over oppressing us and have been doing it ever since.

Peregrinus

Sorry, wait, is this at all relevant to bullying policies in schools?

Wibbs

Peregrinus wrote: »

Sorry, wait, is this at all relevant to bullying policies in schools?

Oh I hear that. I was just gobsmacked at how batshít insane an opinion could be earnestly held in the 21st century. Apparently teachers getting assaulted is OK as previous generations of teachers(all of them apparently) overused corporal punishment. Because logically the "sins of the father" clause is in play. Even though there would be no "genetic" link. And this is "Irish tradition"? Da fuq? Yep, batshít insane just about covers it.

osarusan

Peregrinus wrote: »

Sorry, wait, is this at all relevant to bullying policies in schools?

I think it means we can form crack assassination squads to kill English children because their DNA means they'll be teachers, but I'm not sure.

professore

Not sure where all that historical commentary came from but back on topic :

The problem is it's often difficult to tell who is actually the bully.

Other girls in my daughter's school attempted to bully my daughter. One friend of the group told a girl in another school a lot of lies about my daughter but unbeknownst to her the other girl was a good friend of my daughter outside of school. She was on Twitter and there was a torrent of abuse against her. She said nothing. One of her friends was on Twitter and said that they were a bunch of bitches or something like that and my daughter liked it or whatever the youngsters do on Twitter (disclaimer - I don't use Twitter !)

The bully went to her dad and the principal of the school and printed out this like on Twitter. Her dad ranted at me down the phone about it. He was convinced butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. I have no such delusions about my own kids. I said I apologise if my daughter is bullying your daughter and will deal with her but I first need to check the facts of the case. Sure enough there were HUNDREDS of comments from a group of girls all ganging up on my daughter on various social media, with this one girl as the ringleader. Luckily she's a strong independent kid with lots of proper friends so it didn't bother her much. Having been a victim of verbal bullying myself - I was too big and fought back so was never bullied physically - I wouldn't stand for it if my kids did anything like it.

I sent her dad excerpts of some of them including stuff his daughter had posted calling her all sorts of names and using very colourful language. The school brought both of them in and made them shake hands and that was the end of it.

I think the school handled this well. If they had suspended my daughter on the word of the other girl (and she put on the whole waterworks show and everything) they would have been assisting in the bullying of my daughter. Bullying is practiced by cowards and needs a group of supporters to work. A bully never does it on his or her own - because they are cowards. I think it is the PARENTS and the PARENTS COMMITTEE who can be the most effective in stopping bullying - and they can start by assuming that their own kids are capable of bullying too. And I'm not a teacher or anything like it despite my username. The parents who say "how dare you bully my son / daughter" when they come home crying or attack teachers or other parents when told their child is a bully are the biggest issue. Not the teachers. Nowadays it's easy to find evidence as the idiots put it all online.

Speedwell

professore wrote: »

Sure enough there were HUNDREDS of comments from a group of girls all ganging up on my daughter on various social media, with this one girl as the ringleader.

<snip>

Nowadays it's easy to find evidence as the idiots put it all online.

Priceless. That's as good as the numbskull who stole my chequebook years ago and made the stolen cheques out to himself. The police shook their heads and laughed.

Little CuChulainn

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'm not saying assaults don't happen but let's not make teachers out to be firemen or search and rescue people who put their lives on line and many Don't get paid.

Work overtime? They are off for 4-5 months a year for love of God!!!!!!

Working outside your contracted hours is working overtime. It doesn't matter how much time you get off for holidays. You accepted the work contract based on certain terms. If your employer wants to change those terms they must reach a new agreement with you.

Yes teachers aren't like firemen or search and rescue people. So what? If their workplace is getting more dangerous then they are right to look for the issue to be addressed or to be compensated for managements failure to address it.

cbyrd

My eldest girl was bullied in first year. She's now in leaving cert year.
The bullying left her with anxiety and lead to self harm and a suicide attempt.

The school were absolutely atrocious. Promising action on the bullying. Nothing was done despite several meetings with the principal. You see, the bullys dad was a 'well respected barrister' and a personal friend of the principal. My girl absolutely did not want to change school despite me begging her. She said she would feel worse, more alienated away from her friends.

Eventually the bully changed school at the end of first year but the resounding effects on my family are still being felt.
Eventually my girl was treated through CAMHS, the social worker was head of the antibully league for Leinster. In second year the principal was suspended pending an investigation but was back for third year. She did her junior cert and then we changed school, town and county. She still has major issues but is happier where we are. Her new school is far more understanding of her issues and communication between school and home is great.
A lot of bullying is ignored by some schools in the hope that it'll go away or, run a week or two of antibully awareness and everyone can be seen to be doing their jobs.
A big stick in some cases would sort the problem, but then that not allowed for being a bad example :O

The_Kew_Tour

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'm not saying assaults don't happen but let's not make teachers out to be firemen or search and rescue people who put their lives on line and many Don't get paid.

Work overtime? They are off for 4-5 months a year for love of God!!!!!!

Working outside your contracted hours is working overtime. It doesn't matter how much time you get off for holidays. You accepted the work contract based on certain terms. If your employer wants to change those terms they must reach a new agreement with you.

Yes teachers aren't like firemen or search and rescue people. So what? If their workplace is getting more dangerous then they are right to look for the issue to be addressed or to be compensated for managements failure to address it.

But I work overtime and don't get paid.
Even in my old field of Fiance I know people who worked 20-30 hours overtime a week and never got overtime.

If every company in Ireland who had employees worked overtime went on strike we have fair big Dole line

The_Kew_Tour

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'm not saying assaults don't happen but let's not make teachers out to be firemen or search and rescue people who put their lives on line and many Don't get paid.

Work overtime? They are off for 4-5 months a year for love of God!!!!!!

Working outside your contracted hours is working overtime. It doesn't matter how much time you get off for holidays. You accepted the work contract based on certain terms. If your employer wants to change those terms they must reach a new agreement with you.

Yes teachers aren't like firemen or search and rescue people. So what? If their workplace is getting more dangerous then they are right to look for the issue to be addressed or to be compensated for managements failure to address it.

But I work overtime and don't get paid.
Even in my old field of Finance I know people who worked 20-30 hours overtime a week and never got overtime.

If every company in Ireland who had employees worked overtime went on strike we have fair big Dole line

4ensic15

professore wrote: »

The school brought both of them in and made them shake hands and that was the end of it.

.

In my day the school would have told both of them to hold out their hands. the only shaking would be shaking in agony after the cane on each hand before clamping it under the opposite armpit.

B_Wayne

cbyrd wrote: »

My eldest girl was bullied in first year. She's now in leaving cert year.
The bullying left her with anxiety and lead to self harm and a suicide attempt.

The school were absolutely atrocious. Promising action on the bullying. Nothing was done despite several meetings with the principal. You see, the bullys dad was a 'well respected barrister' and a personal friend of the principal. My girl absolutely did not want to change school despite me begging her. She said she would feel worse, more alienated away from her friends.

Eventually the bully changed school at the end of first year but the resounding effects on my family are still being felt.
Eventually my girl was treated through CAMHS, the social worker was head of the antibully league for Leinster. In second year the principal was suspended pending an investigation but was back for third year. She did her junior cert and then we changed school, town and county. She still has major issues but is happier where we are. Her new school is far more understanding of her issues and communication between school and home is great.
A lot of bullying is ignored by some schools in the hope that it'll go away or, run a week or two of antibully awareness and everyone can be seen to be doing their jobs.
A big stick in some cases would sort the problem, but then that not allowed for being a bad example :O

This is one of those things that I can't really understand looking back how no real resources are put in place to support the victim. After suffering like that, proper counselling resources should be encouraged and offered. Very sorry to hear that situation hasn't changed.

Little CuChulainn

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But I work overtime and don't get paid.
Even in my old field of Fiance I know people who worked 20-30 hours overtime a week and never got overtime.

If every company in Ireland who had employees worked overtime went on strike we have fair big Dole line

No we'd have a better paid population. If you are willing to work outside your contracted hours that's your prerogative but you shouldn't be expected to nor should you expect others to. People like you who let their employers off with using you like that just make things worse for others. We have workers rights and employment contracts for a reason.

Claw Hammer

4ensic15 wrote: »

In my day the school would have told both of them to hold out their hands. the only shaking would be shaking in agony after the cane on each hand before clamping it under the opposite armpit.

Schools aren't allowed discipline pupils any more. Much less bullying when they did.

Speedwell

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Schools aren't allowed discipline pupils any more. Much less bullying when they did.

You say that as though you're nostalgic for the time when it was OK to hit kids.

Claw Hammer

Speedwell wrote: »

You say that as though you're nostalgic for the time when it was OK to hit kids.

I am nostalgic for the time when there was order in schools and they actually taught something in them.

Speedwell

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I am nostalgic for the time when there was order in schools and they actually taught something in them.

Well, isn't that precious. These days we try not to hit the kiddies to accomplish that end. It's not an upgrade to trade peer bullying for authoritarian bullying.

mariaalice

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I am nostalgic for the time when there was order in schools and they actually taught something in them.[/QUOTE

Would you go away, in the past say thirty years there have been huge new technological innovations, new medicines all kinds of new scientific research, a new type of drug treatment for cancer has been invented, also lots of music, art, fashion, literature, film, design ect all requiring research, invocation and production. All this has been produced by individuals who are getting a supposed 'dreadful' education.

Claw Hammer

mariaalice wrote: »

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I am nostalgic for the time when there was order in schools and they actually taught something in them.[/QUOTE

Would you go away, in the past say thirty years there have been huge new technological innovations, new medicines all kinds of new scientific research, a new type of drug treatment for cancer has been invented, also lots of music, art, fashion, literature, film, design ect all requiring research, invocation and production. All this has been produced by individuals who are getting a supposed 'dreadful' education.

Most of it is on the coat tails of people who have gone before and is also coming from India and China where they know how to teach.

mariaalice

Claw Hammer wrote: »

mariaalice wrote: »

Most of it is on the coat tails of people who have gone before and is also coming from India and China where they know how to teach.

No its not, but don't let that stop you stereotyping.

B-D-P--

My nephew has this friend, He was wild, I mean crazy in primary school. Destined for a life of "Go easy on him, he has ADHD" and become a bully. Sorry for stereo typing but it happens.

He joined secondary school and they quickly picked up on this, Instead of pawning the issue to therapists or somewhere else they did something great.
The Vice principal, sat beside him for every lunch, Talked to him, everyday for his first school year, discussed school, friends, issues, learning issues. This was in public in the canteen, It was not a punishment, nor saw as a disipline act. But what it was, was helping the boy become a better person.

I cant believe how the lad has changed, I picked him and a few others up the last day, and the genuine manners, not manners for show, that the lad had was incredible. he had respect for the others around him and me.

I believe the kids spend MOST their awake life in the school, The school should take some responsibility in teaching the child right from wrong.

Claw Hammer

B-D-P-- wrote: »

I believe the kids spend MOST their awake life in the school, The school should take some responsibility in teaching the child right from wrong.

What about the parents?

Turquoise Hexagon Sun

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Adults can be fired from their jobs or brought to court for harassment for workplace bullying. Employers are required by law to comply with anti bullying policies which are considered part of health and safety regulations. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/health_safety_work.html

Why is it not the same for schools and teachers who are responsible for the students?

Your false equivalence fallacy is frustrating and deserving of your username. In a work place you're dealing with adults, binded by contracts and fulfillment to those contracts. It's more clear-cut in a work place.

Bullying can occur any time. If you were to curb bullying in a school, the measures you would have to go through to try prevent it would probably be something reminiscent of 1984.

Holding the educators responsible for individual bouts of bullying would be ridiculous. You know the school is all ready most likely understaffed, underfunded and trying to educate the children about bullying, the effects of it and what to do if you see it or experiencing it. Why would you punish the school if a kid and go around the corner and a bully whispers "******." or whatever insult might be used.

The individual committing the bullying should be held accountable and they can be punished by the school.

There are all ready protocols in place. All schools are zero-tolerance on bullying. If there's bullying occurring, it should be reported to a member of staff. If it's not reported or the school doesn't see it, how can any thing be done? Why would it be the fault of the school?

Some seriously bizarre thinking on this forum.

Speedwell

Turquoise Hexagon Sun wrote: »

There are all ready protocols in place. All schools are zero-tolerance on bullying.

"Zero-tolerance", though heroic-sounding in principle, is just another word for authoritarian bullying, in practice.

I'm getting kind of tired of approaches that use something other than a culture of mutual respect and kindness, tbh. I think I'll leave this thread; I've put in my oar against violence and contempt and turning a blind eye.

Turquoise Hexagon Sun

Bullying does't help the school. It's not in their interest to for it to exist. Bullying was always promoted in the 2 secondary schools I attended and the primary as being (in work terms) gross misconduct and one of the most serious offences you could commit. Any bullying detected out result in expulsion or immediate suspension.

If the schools were held accountable what would be the outcome? Are they fined? You think a teacher or staff member will want to shop out their own employer by reporting bullying? If there's a punishment for the school because of the actions of others, I can see a dark hole of covering up of issues because peoples jobs will be on the line. Bad idea.

BTW, I'm attended two northside Dublin schools. Nothing fancy..