Cyclist killed in Dublin

mr spuckler

there was a post last week on that very point, with a link to studies showing it to be the case. will see if i can dig it out.

here you go.

Orinoco wrote: »

http://www.rudi.net/node/16395

from here

Macy0161

denismc wrote: »

Lately I am noticing a lot more cyclists/ joggers out on poorly lit roads with no hard shoulders and it unnerves me a lot. I passed one guy recently jogging in the middle of the road even though there was a footpath.

And this morning I passed a guy jogging in the dark on a twisty road with no hard shoulder. Even with visi-vests and armbands some of these people can be hard to see.
With increased traffic and darker evenings/mornings I can see why there could be increased accidents.

Not going to defend someone running on the road when there's a footpath, but someone running on a road with no hard shoulder? They're within they're rights, and the problem is not the runner, it is with some motorists that have become so ingrained that they're the only form of road user there should be that the whole concept of being able to brake in the distance you can see, expect the unexpected etc has disappeared.

If that runner lives on that road, are we at a point that he has to drive somewhere to run, or drive to the end of a pavement, or something else?

There is a massive problem with enforcement in this state, and that has fed into road behaviour by a proportion of all road user groups. Any road safety bounce got with the introduction of penalty points has long since gone as the chances of getting caught are so low. Picking on individual things is pointless - it needs an iron fist at this stage to change the culture. Wide spread speed and red light cameras, APRN for tax/ insurance/ nct/ disqualified and unqualified drivers, average speed cameras etc etc. And that includes cyclists and pedestrians. It doesn't include people quite legitimately using the roads being forced off by the danger created by other road users.

I would also use the APRN to effectively police the restricted cordon too, as the amount of trucks is still far to high. If it's not the ban being ignored, the amount of passes given is far to high for far too big vehicles.

RIP to the woman.

Ray Palmer

cantalach wrote: »

RIP. Very sad.

I might be wrong here and certainly don't have any stats that would bear this out, but I have a sense that a disproportionately high number of fatalities like this one are female. If this is true, is there something to be learned from this discrepancy?

In a tragic context such as this, I hope it goes without saying that I'm not trolling or attempting to make some sort of sexist point. I'm genuinely wondering if differences in 'attitude' between men and women might be a contributing factor and if this needs to form part of safe cycling campaigns.

Generalising is always risky, but I notice that female cyclists commuting around my own city (Cork) tend to adopt a less aggressive road position than their male counterparts: seldom taking ownership of a lane, swinging wider when negotiating small roundabouts or right turns, stopping further back at the lights, etc.

This is a terrible tragedy and some might feel that the above is inappropriate on this day. I respect that view but think any discussion that might go any way towards reducing the risk of this happening again is justifiable.

The stats are quite clear generally it is men between 18-45 cyclists likely to be killed on the roads in Ireland. Mainly because more men in that range are commuter cyclists.

Moflojo

Here's the thing that worries me, and please forgive me if people don't think it's relevant, but the recent spate of cycling-related deaths could be just the tip of the iceberg and things might get a lot worse before they get better. There are a number of factors that are now combining to create a more dangerous environment for cyclists.

The economy crashed in 2008/2009 and this resulted in a huge decrease in the number of vehicles on the roads due to job losses, less goods being transported, and construction traffic disappearing completely from our roads.

The Bike to Work scheme was introduced in 2009 and proved extremely popular due to the financial incentive and people looking for cheaper alternatives for their commute. Cycling popularity has increased massively since the introduction of the scheme.

The Dublin Bikes scheme was also introduced around the same time as the Bike to Work scheme and has been a huge success. Dublin Bikes could also be seen as a sort of "gateway drug" where users move on to harder products and start buying their own bikes, thereby further increasing the number of cyclists on the road.

The economic crisis also took money away from public expenditure and, except for a couple of minor projects and the public bike sharing schemes, there has been close to zero investment in cycling infrastructure. The roads and streets remain relatively untouched since before the current boom in cycling popularity.

Now the economy is improving. More people are back at work. The construction industry is finding its feet, in Dublin at least. There are more private cars on the road, more company cars, business vehicles, HGVs, and construction vehicles. Yet the infrastructure remains the same.

More vehicles. More HGVs. More cyclists. Same infrastructure.

The likelihood of conflict between cyclists and vehicles has increased massively in the past 12 months, and unfortunately the morbid statistics of cyclist fatalities are starting to reflect that.

I was hoping no one would attempt to find validity in the cyclist being female and that being a factor.
We don't even know anything about what caused this.

Terrible.

fguinan

Rip.

I really believe that current cycle lanes need to be reviewed and removed if they are unsafe....

jon1981

fguinan wrote: »

Rip.

I really believe that current cycle lanes need to be reviewed and removed if they are unsafe....

Well based on the recent announcement that ain't happening anytime soon

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/cycling-projects-in-dublin-pulled-as-luas-gets-funding-priority/

mr spuckler

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

I was hoping no one would attempt to find validity in the cyclist being female and that being a factor.
We don't even know anything about what caused this.

Terrible.

i don't think anyone was doing that. certainly my post on the topic was in response to what seemed to be a more general question / observation.

incidents like todays bring up wider conversations which can be helpful to educate all road users about the risks and potential causes of incidents, even if that's far removed from what caused todays tragedy.

nobody that i saw was suggesting anything about the cause of this awful incident.

triggermortis

Very sad news. RIP poor girl and condolences to her family and friends

P_1

Cycled past the spot this afternoon. Sadly it seems the lady got caught on the inside of the truck at the left between Seville Place and Sheriff Street. Really shook me up as that spot is on my daily commute and I'd consider the spot to be rather safe.

My condolences to the lady's family and friends.

RobFowl

Shocking news and i feel for her family and the driver.
RIP and we are all family on the road.

mr spuckler

mr spuckler wrote: »

i don't think anyone was doing that. certainly my post on the topic was in response to what seemed to be a more general question / observation.

incidents like todays bring up wider conversations which can be helpful to educate all road users about the risks and potential causes of incidents, even if that's far removed from what caused todays tragedy.

nobody that i saw was suggesting anything about the cause of this awful incident.

Not you.

I might be wrong here and certainly don't have any stats that would bear this out, but I have a sense that a disproportionately high number of fatalities like this one are female. If this is true, is there something to be learned from this discrepancy

Is there something to be learned about something you don't know any of the facts in apart from the cyclist was female?

Do you have that poster on ignore? That's all I can think as to why you didn't see it.

Wishbone Ash

P_1 wrote: »

Cycled past the spot this afternoon. Sadly it seems the lady got caught on the inside of the truck at the left between Seville Place and Sheriff Street. Really shook me up as that spot is on my daily commute and I'd consider the spot to be rather safe.

My condolences to the lady's family and friends.

I use that junction regularly but usually take the lane and have never had any incidents there that I can recall. The road does narrow at the left bend onto Seville place and I've seen others gets squeezed out by small vehicles nevermind trucks - hence the reason I take the lane. The parking on the left at the approach doesn't help either as there is potential to get 'doored' also.

Condolences to the girl's family/friends.

cantalach

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The stats are quite clear generally it is men between 18-45 cyclists likely to be killed on the roads in Ireland. Mainly because more men in that range are commuter cyclists.

Thanks. Do you have any links? I realise that road fatalities generally are very heavily skewed towards young men. But I was referring to cycling specifically.

cantalach

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

Do you have that poster on ignore? That's all I can think as to why you didn't see it.

Sorry, afraid I'm lost. What poster?

Rogue-Trooper

RIP to the poor girl and my sympathies to her family, to the driver and to anyone who was unfortunate enough to witness it.

I have to say this really shook me today. I could see the accident scene from the window in work and I had only passed that same spot an hour or 2 previously.

Please take care out there folks and stay safe.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Very sad news to hear . I don't think I ever cycled that road, only drove it. It's always busy from what I can remember.

Stheno

Drive that way regularly.

RIP to the poor lady

Chuchote

Deepest sympathy to the family of the cyclist. Sympathy also to the trucker, his life will never return to what it was after a tragedy like this.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I had both a car and a bus pull into me this morning. The did see me they just didn't care. Seriously considering giving up cycling at this point.

I hope you reported the bus to Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus, or to the company owners if a private bus. For the sake of the rest of us, please do this.

beauf wrote: »

The accidents that have occurred in very different situations, as such its not the time to be making sweeping generalisations. Or jumping to conclusions.

Most cyclist deaths and injuries happen at junctions where they have contact with cars, and especially with trucks and buses.

fguinan wrote: »

Rip.

I really believe that current cycle lanes need to be reviewed and removed if they are unsafe....

Redesigned, rather. No cycle lane should bring any cyclist near a truck. Cycle lanes should be protected. Above all, no cycle lane should bring a cyclist up on the blind side of a turning truck.

And trucks (and cars, for that matter) should be redesigned with transparent doors (like this below) and wide-angle curved windscreens, and convex mirrors, and for that matter sensors that beep if there's a bike near, so the driver can see perfectly easily what's in the path of his wheels before he turns.

a148pro

RIP

I know there are very good reasons why we don't discuss the perceived causes of accidents like this in their aftermath, but I remember suggesting previously that we have a separate thread to discuss the results of inquests or enquiries into cycling deaths. I think as cyclists we can all learn from these events. I don't know does anyone have a link to any resources?

TallGlass

Just out of interest. I think that the maximum level we have in Dublin is an advanced paramedic. But do we have anything like in the show on BBC 'an hour to save your life', as in emergency medicine doctors arriving on scene and if needed starting lifesaving treatment there and then rather than waiting?

On the programme there are alot of HGV accidents, and without there intervention I would imagine there outlook would have been different.

jimmycrackcorm

P_1 wrote: »

Cycled past the spot this afternoon. Sadly it seems the lady got caught on the inside of the truck at the left between Seville Place and Sheriff Street. Really shook me up as that spot is on my daily commute and I'd consider the spot to be rather safe.

My condolences to the lady's family and friends.

I remember posting the same comment for another accident in the not so distant past. Once you hear about a collision between a cyclist and a truck you can automatically assume that it happened at a junction with a left turning truck.

As I've posted a few times already, the RSA should be actively campaigning to warn inexperienced cyclists about the dangers of passing up the inside of trucks anywhere near a junction.

It won't be that long until I will be repeating this.

Chuchote

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

As I've posted a few times already, the RSA should be actively campaigning to warn inexperienced cyclists about the dangers of passing up the inside of trucks anywhere near a junction.

Absolutely. And the RSA also needs to warn trucks that they should know that there is no cyclist near every time they turn. They don't want to wake up at three knowing there is blood on their hands and crying.

joesoap5

cantalach wrote: »

RIP. Very sad.

I might be wrong here and certainly don't have any stats that would bear this out, but I have a sense that a disproportionately high number of fatalities like this one are female. If this is true, is there something to be learned from this discrepancy?

In a tragic context such as this, I hope it goes without saying that I'm not trolling or attempting to make some sort of sexist point. I'm genuinely wondering if differences in 'attitude' between men and women might be a contributing factor and if this needs to form part of safe cycling campaigns.

Generalising is always risky, but I notice that female cyclists commuting around my own city (Cork) tend to adopt a less aggressive road position than their male counterparts: seldom taking ownership of a lane, swinging wider when negotiating small roundabouts or right turns, stopping further back at the lights, etc.

This is a terrible tragedy and some might feel that the above is inappropriate on this day. I respect that view but think any discussion that might go any way towards reducing the risk of this happening again is justifiable.

Its not only inappropriate, its a ridiculous view point when you don't have a clue what happened.

Generally if I'm stopping further back at the lights its because of cars having a habit of cutting corners on right turns.

Generally if I'm not taking ownership of a lane its because I know I'm going to take a lot longer to take off when the lights change than the headcase behind me whos eager to take off at any cost.

Generally when I take a corner wide as I do regularly when I'm turning from the Drumcondra Road onto Clonliffe road its because there's a huge pothole on the corner and a shore and if I hit that at the wrong angle or when wet then I'm going down.

beauf

Chuchote wrote: »

...Most cyclist deaths and injuries happen at junctions where they have contact with cars, and especially with trucks and buses.....

I think you are missing my point. If there are spate of tragic accidents, people tend to make sweeping generalisation of those accidents. We get things like mandatory cycle lanes, and the similar. Whereas road positioning, gets completely ignored. We get more bad cycle lanes, instead of proper infrastructure. Lots of cycling is too dangerous....

http://irishcycle.com/collisions/

kirving

Chuchote wrote: »

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

As I've posted a few times already, the RSA should be actively campaigning to warn inexperienced cyclists about the dangers of passing up the inside of trucks anywhere near a junction.

Absolutely. And the RSA also needs to warn trucks that they should know that there is no cyclist near every time they turn. They don't want to wake up at three knowing there is blood on their hands and crying.

The cyclist is the one who puts themselves up the inside of a truck though. At that point, it's already too late to do anything about it, and your life is in the hands of the truck driver.

I genuinely think that with a set advertising budget, it would be more effectively spent directed towards cyclists than the truck driver. Better to stop the situation happening in the first place.

As a cyclist, I don't go up the inside of trucks or busses full stop.

joesoap5

Kevin Irving wrote: »

The cyclist is the one who puts themselves up the inside of a truck though. At that point, it's already too late to do anything about it, and your life is in the hands of the truck driver.

I genuinely think that with a set advertising budget, it would be more effectively spent directed towards cyclists than the truck driver. Better to stop the situation happening in the first place.

As a cyclist, I don't go up the inside of trucks or busses full stop.

Yeah, I have to agree with you. I try wherever possible to avoid being on the inside of trucks and buses. Its a blind spot for those guys in the cabs and the buses generally think they own the road anyway and don't give a damn.

How do people handle situations where you're cycling along on the left side of the road minding your own business and a bus which may have been going faster than you/is ahead of you by a small margin but is in the middle of the road or in another lane and then literally pulls in, in front of you as you are coming on the inside knowing that you've nowhere to go but on the path or may have to brake dangerously close to the bus?

Chuchote

Evening Herald report on what happened, with quotes from local people demanding this very dangerous junction be changed:

http://www.herald.ie/news/horrified-locals-rush-in-vain-to-help-young-woman-cyclist-killed-in-collision-with-lorry-35027891.html

Independent councillor and former Lord Mayor of Dublin Christy Burke demanded that the area of yesterday's fatality be immediately closed to heavy goods vehicles.

"My heart goes out to the family of that poor young lady. This was a death that did not have to happen," he said.

"We've been looking for a traffic-management plan for that area for years. The area around Seville Place must be immediately closed to trucks and HGVs.

"This is a residential area - there are two schools there, there are cyclists and a young population.

The Port Tunnel is open for heavy vehicles. Every time there's a cyclist death like this, it inevitably involves an HGV."

beauf

joesoap5 wrote: »

Yeah, I have to agree with you. I try wherever possible to avoid being on the inside of trucks and buses. Its a blind spot for those guys in the cabs and the buses generally think they own the road anyway and don't give a damn.

How do people handle situations where you're cycling along on the left side of the road minding your own business and a bus which may have been going faster than you/is ahead of you by a small margin but is in the middle of the road or in another lane and then literally pulls in, in front of you as you are coming on the inside knowing that you've nowhere to go but on the path or may have to brake dangerously close to the bus?

Slow down or speed up to maintain a bigger distance.

cython

Chuchote wrote: »

Absolutely. And the RSA also needs to warn trucks that they should know that there is no cyclist near every time they turn. They don't want to wake up at three knowing there is blood on their hands and crying.

If you'll pardon the pun, and without commenting on possible causes of the incident in question here, it's a two way street. A truck driver can be 100% sure that there is no cyclist near them when they pull up at a junction, and they can be as vigilant as possible while stationary, but with so many massive blind spots on these vehicles (and probably even more means of entry to said blind spots, some of which may be masked by other traffic) cooperation from other road users to stay out of said blind spots is also essential in this. Remember, truck drivers only have 2 eyes the same as the rest of us, and can only focus them in one direction/on one mirror at a time.

The only other option I can see is to mandate expensive retro-fitting of cameras and displays to all trucks to try to eliminate all blind spots, which is not exactly realistic. And I say all this as someone who cycles from Dublin 15 to Dublin 2 and back again daily for a commute, but I give HGVs as wide a berth as possible in doing so! Alternatively I guess we could install devices marking out a vehicle's blind spots by means of projected lights or something, and basically making them red zones/do not enter areas. Again, not really a feasible solution, though as I describe it I realise it might make an interesting PR/awareness campaign if a few such trucks drove around Dublin for a few weeks!