Cyclist killed in Dublin

Chuchote

cython wrote: »

The only other option I can see is to mandate expensive retro-fitting of cameras and displays to all trucks to try to eliminate all blind spots, which is not exactly realistic.

Not necessarily expensive. When I had a car, I got those beep-beep parking sensors retro-fitted to it; it cost €50. Cameras might be a bit dearer, but probably not much - however, it depends on how much you think a life should be valued at.

HGVs don't belong in cities. The locals quoted in the Herald demand that these trucks be rerouted out of their neighbourhood.

irishrover99

Here's road traffic bollards from China at 2$ a pop. The more you buy the cheaper they get. So for 1 million you'd probably get 1 million bollards. Plaster them all over the city and make the cycling lanes safer. It took me 1 min on Google to find these and i'm sure the council could install them. Can somebody from the Government not come up with an idea like this or similar.

http://jackwinsafety.en.made-in-china.com/product/UvYnakQCsocp/China-Road-Barrier-Traffic-Delineator-Post-Plastic-Bollard.html

cython

Chuchote wrote: »

Not necessarily expensive. When I had a car, I got those beep-beep parking sensors retro-fitted to it; it cost €50. Cameras might be a bit dearer, but probably not much - however, it depends on how much you think a life should be valued at.

HGVs don't belong in cities. The locals quoted in the Herald demand that these trucks be rerouted out of their neighbourhood.

The area covered by those sensors for your car would cover a tiny fraction of the cumulative area of a truck's blind spots, never mind not really providing equivalent functionality to blind spot cameras - should a truck driver sit motionless until the alarm stops going off? What if they fail, and simply don't sound? If you are that serious about it, then cameras are the sensible and appropriate device for this, but they will definitely cost more than 50 euro per vehicle. Consider alone that trailers would also likely need these cameras fitted (blind spot behind them, and cab mounted cameras on a turning truck will not necessarily cover all the "normal" blind spots either), and that in turn necessitates being able to disconnect and reconnect feeds, and this becomes a lot more complicated than your example. And this is before you consider the international nature of road haulage.

And as for the (I hope!) rhetorical question of what a life should be valued at, regardless of this a better question in my view would be who should have to foot the bill for such retrofits? Should the tax payer pay, in the public interest? Should hauliers foot the bill, even though a significant component of the need stems from some other road users being too dumb to exercise a bit of common sense? Or should we levy extra taxes on bicycles for it, since it seems to be cyclists that come a cropper from ending up in these blind spots?

I'll be the first to admit that I may be heading into strawman territory at this point, but in spite of this, there is still clear potential for a quick win in the form of education, i.e. train cyclists to avoid HGV blind spots. Other measures can certainly follow in turn, e.g. mandate that all new HGVs are fitted with safety equipment to monitor blind spots, and through obsolescence it eventually becomes the norm.

And finally, while I am not a fan of HGVs in cities, I'm sure absolutely nobody likes them in their own neighbourhood, so excuse me if I see a pinch of NIMBYism in the comments from the locals. Eliminating HGVs as a whole from the city centre is an admirable, but lofty goal, and is not going to be solved today or tomorrow. Education and public awareness can be initiated relatively quickly though.

Pinch Flat

Collisions with HGVs still remain the biggest killer of cyclists and young females feature more than males. It's a big problem - truck drivers who are under pressure and won't think twice of turning left across a cyclist, cyclists who go up the inside of HGVs at lights, perhaps not realising the blind spots. Mirrors don't seem to work - if present, they're in the right place and not observed. What about mandatory proximity sensors? A guy I worked with had a large commercial jeep and it was fitted with these - would pick up cyclists and pedestrians in close proximity.

A lot of it though seems from the attitude of truck drivers themselves - with the upturn in construction activity these are common place now. A lot of these guys, particularly the guys hauling excavated material, are on a price per load - faster speeds, breaking that red mean they can get emptied and back quicker.

I had a guy in a skip lorry pass me within 6" on the south quays a while back, then pulled in front of me, to stop at a red. went to have a word and was met with a middle finger and a laugh. No end of technology or safety measures will address that.

average_runner

irishrover99 wrote: »

Here's road traffic bollards from China at 2$ a pop. The more you buy the cheaper they get. So for 1 million you'd probably get 1 million bollards. Plaster them all over the city and make the cycling lanes safer. It took me 1 min on Google to find these and i'm sure the council could install them. Can somebody from the Government not come up with an idea like this or similar.

http://jackwinsafety.en.made-in-china.com/product/UvYnakQCsocp/China-Road-Barrier-Traffic-Delineator-Post-Plastic-Bollard.html

Thats all great but there is two problems:

1)Alot of our city roads aren't wide enough for a cycle lane and car lane, so the bollards won't work

2) Cyclist still won't stay inside them


On the bus 20 mins ago coming down Dame St, about ten cyclists zig zaggy in and out of buses, no way can the bus drivers see them and to make it worst, they then go on the wrong side of the road without looking and thru the red lights at the junction!

A person got knocked down there only a few months ago by a cyclist going thru a red light, person was badly injured.

Chuchote

irishrover99 wrote: »

Here's road traffic bollards from China at 2$ a pop. The more you buy the cheaper they get. So for 1 million you'd probably get 1 million bollards. Plaster them all over the city and make the cycling lanes safer. It took me 1 min on Google to find these and i'm sure the council could install them. Can somebody from the Government not come up with an idea like this or similar.

http://jackwinsafety.en.made-in-china.com/product/UvYnakQCsocp/China-Road-Barrier-Traffic-Delineator-Post-Plastic-Bollard.html

Definitely stealing this idea!

irishrover99

average_runner wrote: »

irishrover99 wrote: »

Here's road traffic bollards from China at 2$ a pop. The more you buy the cheaper they get. So for 1 million you'd probably get 1 million bollards. Plaster them all over the city and make the cycling lanes safer. It took me 1 min on Google to find these and i'm sure the council could install them. Can somebody from the Government not come up with an idea like this or similar.

http://jackwinsafety.en.made-in-china.com/product/UvYnakQCsocp/China-Road-Barrier-Traffic-Delineator-Post-Plastic-Bollard.html

Thats all great but there is two problems:

1)Alot of our city roads aren't wide enough for a cycle lane and car lane, so the bollards won't work

Ok but lets add them to the cycle lanes we already have which would be a start. I've seen these in very limited numbers in the City already but my mate told me they are all over where he lives in Holland

average_runner

irishrover99 wrote: »

Ok but lets add them to the cycle lanes we already have which would be a start. I've seen these in very limited numbers in the City already but my mate told me they are all over where he lives in Holland

But that's the problem, some of the cycle lanes are on roads that aren't wide enough for both.

The quays are a disaster, greenhills road is another one. Then we have the bus stops:eek:.

The only solution I think is to build a bridge cycle lane network all around Dublin and toll it so the maintenance will be covered

magicbastarder

the cost of the bollards is not the budgetary issue which would prevent or allow such things anyway; the cost of installing them would dwarf the material cost. and they could be cheap for a reason, they may not be fit for the purposes intended.

Pinch Flat

They've used these at the dental hospital (back of trinity in Dublin) to try and demarcate the bus (and bike) / car lane. They're constantly hit. It is a good idea though to try and at least address what is clearly a big problem.

beauf

If you are driver you need to block cyclists by moving in early when making a left turn. As a cyclist you need to move out early to block drivers from going around you at junctions.

We need a load more Garda on the streets punishing bad habits of cyclists and drivers.

You can't go 5 mins on on road without seeing someone breaking some law. The level of bad roadcraft is abysmal.

beauf

If you are driver you need to block cyclists by moving in early when making a left turn. As a cyclist you need to move out early to block drivers from going around you at junctions.

We need a load more Garda on the streets punishing bad habits of cyclists and drivers.

You can't go 5 mins on on road without seeing someone breaking some law. The level of bad roadcraft is abysmal.

average_runner

beauf wrote: »

If you are driver you need to block cyclists by moving in early when making a left turn. As a cyclist you need to move out early to block drivers from going around you at junctions.

We need a load more Garda on the streets punishing bad habits of cyclists and drivers.

You can't go 5 mins on on road without seeing someone breaking some law. The level of bad roadcraft is abysmal.

But then when you take the gardai back, the bad habits will start the next day..

Look at Dame St on to Westmoreland St, your not allowed to drive on it, gardai went missing for a week and everyone drove on it!!

Should be a camera there instead though!

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

the cost of the bollards is not the budgetary issue which would prevent or allow such things anyway; the cost of installing them would dwarf the material cost. and they could be cheap for a reason, they may not be fit for the purposes intended.

We could volunteer a citizen bollard force; if we each put in 10…

Yes, they're fit for purpose, they're used all over the world.

As @average_runner says, some of the roads with cycle lanes aren't wide enough. Usually, that's because the roads are also used for parking. Private cars shouldn't be parked on public streets at all, imho, but certainly not on narrow roads like this.

magicbastarder

Chuchote wrote: »

Yes, they're fit for purpose, they're used all over the world.

those particular ones may not be. they may be manufactured cheaply and not robust enough.

irishrover99

magicbastarder wrote: »

Chuchote wrote: »

Yes, they're fit for purpose, they're used all over the world.

those particular ones may not be. they may be manufactured cheaply and not robust enough.

If a car hits an expensive one its going to come up out of the ground as easily as the cheap one. Penalising drivers and forcing them to pay for broken ones would be an idea

Wishbone Ash

Christy Burke "The Port Tunnel is open for heavy vehicles"

It's these sort of comments that make me lose the will to live! It's a bit like saying that the M50 is open to private cars so there's no need for them to be on Gardiner Street. Does it not occur to Cllr. Burke that the truck may have been operating within the city centre.

magicbastarder

christy burke is somewhat of a 'character'.

Seaswimmer

Was there not a plan or proposal to remove railings from the footpaths around traffic lights and pedestrian crossings. The logic being that as a cyclist or pedestrian if you found yourself in a dangerous situation then you could at least go up on the path fairly easily??

from memory were they removed from Westmoreland Street turning left to the quays or are they still there??

beauf

average_runner wrote: »

But then when you take the gardai back, the bad habits will start the next day..

Look at Dame St on to Westmoreland St, your not allowed to drive on it, gardai went missing for a week and everyone drove on it!!

Should be a camera there instead though!

Why should they go missing. Used to be you'd see speed checks around the city, and you'd see cops around in general. Hasn't been the case for years. They mainly moved off the streets.

Put a camera there with a Garda reserve with a camera handing out finds. Camera on its own is no use.

Chuchote

beauf wrote: »

Why should they go missing. Used to be you'd see speed checks around the city, and you'd see cops around in general. Hasn't been the case for years. They mainly moved off the streets.

Put a camera there with a Garda reserve with a camera handing out finds. Camera on its own is no use.

Or put cameras on some of the bollards walling off cycle lanes, linked in so they can automatically issue fines to drivers whose licence plates are recognised. In London they have these on the backs and fronts of buses. You drive in a bus lane, the camera snaps you, and the fine goes out automatically.

beauf

Why do we not have number plate recognition here for traffic offences?

average_runner

beauf wrote: »

Why should they go missing. Used to be you'd see speed checks around the city, and you'd see cops around in general. Hasn't been the case for years. They mainly moved off the streets.

Put a camera there with a Garda reserve with a camera handing out finds. Camera on its own is no use.

Because its a waste of resources having a garda on Westmoreland street catching cars going thru there. There is more important work for them to be doing.

You wouldn't see this in any other country, just have a camera that records the reg and sends the fine and pts to them, like the speed camera.

Or put a Bollard that pops up there if its not a bus like they have in Manchester.

This is what they do in Australia and UK.

average_runner

Chuchote wrote: »

Or put cameras on some of the bollards walling off cycle lanes, linked in so they can automatically issue fines to drivers whose licence plates are recognised. In London they have these on the backs and fronts of buses. You drive in a bus lane, the camera snaps you, and the fine goes out automatically.

No need to have some one holding the cameras though, we live in the modern age

Chuchote

average_runner wrote: »

No need to have some one holding the cameras though, we live in the modern age

They're automatic on London buses, or so a Dublin Bus driver who'd worked in London told me some years ago as he stared hatefully at a line of cars blocking the bus lane in front of us.

*Love* the idea of a bollard that pops up if the vehicle isn't a bus or bike! Though perhaps those French mats with blades to pop all four tyres would be better.

beauf

average_runner wrote: »

Because its a waste of resources having a garda on Westmoreland street catching cars going thru there. There is more important work for them to be doing.

You wouldn't see this in any other country, just have a camera that records the reg and sends the fine and pts to them, like the speed camera.

Or put a Bollard that pops up there if its not a bus like they have in Manchester.

This is what they do in Australia and UK.

A camera can only detect a very limited amount of bad driving. It will never detect someone cutting off a cyclist for example.

Which is why you need a person. They don't have to be there every day. Just randomly a few times a month.

In Ireland they ignore all sorts of bad driving. There isn't the pro active enforcement like they have in the UK.

The point isn't to catch every instance of rule breaking. But to change the habit of rule breaking.

ED E

The problems all go back to AGS and their mindset. Every offence should be handled, not just DD and speeding. If beat cops didn't walk past 40x cars in a bus lane on one street then it would change drivers behavior as the laws would start to mean at least something. We may as well have never banned mobiles as its never been enforced.

average_runner

beauf wrote: »

A camera can only detect a very limited amount of bad driving. It will never detect someone cutting off a cyclist for example.

Which is why you need a person. They don't have to be there every day. Just randomly a few times a month.

In Ireland they ignore all sorts of bad driving. There isn't the pro active enforcement like they have in the UK.

The point isn't to catch every instance of rule breaking. But to change the habit of rule breaking.

But i was talking about Westmoreland St.

I am all on for gardai pulling in cars for bad driving but it has to work the other way also with cyclists breaking red lights or just cycling dangerously.

Same for walkers and runners etc

Lumen

ED E wrote: »

The problems all go back to AGS and their mindset. Every offence should be handled, not just DD and speeding. If beat cops didn't walk past 40x cars in a bus lane on one street then it would change drivers behavior as the laws would start to mean at least something. We may as well have never banned mobiles as its never been enforced.

That seems like a rather naive and ambitious change in culture you're proposing, and not only of AGS.

A given set of garda resources can either be concentrated (which means some offences will get largely ignored) or spread thinly (so certain previously high-priority offences will get lower levels of attention).

I'd really rather just cycle round the obstruction and leave the Gardai to focus on catching violent scumbags or whatever.

Chuchote

Automation is the way to go; new garda recruits can also spot and catch regular offenders.*

And the signs on red lights need to be changed so that cyclists can filter through those where it's sensible to do so, which would stop cyclists (though not drivers) from breaking red lights routinely.


*Edit: (using camera footage automatically provided)