Cyclist killed in Dublin

beauf

average_runner wrote: »

But i was talking about Westmoreland St.

I am all on for gardai pulling in cars for bad driving but it has to work the other way also with cyclists breaking red lights or just cycling dangerously.

Same for walkers and runners etc

Doesn't matter where it is, its the same all over.

They do but very few

http://irishcycle.com/2016/08/26/900-fines-issued-to-irish-cyclists-in-the-first-7-months-of-2016/

The fines — officially known as fixed charge notices — were issued at a rate of around 4.3 per day for this year. That’s up from the previous rate of just 2.4 per day recorded using data from the first nine months of the new fines system, between July 31, 2015 to May 12, 2016.

beauf

Chuchote wrote: »

Automation is the way to go; new garda recruits can also spot and catch regular offenders.

And the signs on red lights need to be changed so that cyclists can filter through those where it's sensible to do so, which would stop cyclists (though not drivers) from breaking red lights routinely.

Facial recognition would help here. Most will be repeat offenders on the same route every day/week.

But as red light breaking isn't a high % in accident stats it won't make much of a difference.

beauf

Lumen wrote: »

That seems like a rather naive and ambitious change in culture you're proposing, and not only of AGS.

A given set of garda resources can either be concentrated (which means some offences will get largely ignored) or spread thinly (so certain previously high-priority offences will get lower levels of attention).

I'd really rather just cycle round the obstruction and leave the Gardai to focus on catching violent scumbags or whatever.

The problem is most realise they will never be penalised for rule breaking. So it has become normalised. Every other car is using a mobile. Every other cyclist breaks lights.

Emme

So sad to hear yet another cyclist has been killed. I have been cycling for over 20 years and nothing has changed. Cycle lanes are a joke. I have stayed alive thanks to the grace of God and a loud aggressive attitude on the roads. I wear high-viz gear and a cycle helmet. I do my best to avoid breaking the law but my experience of Gardai is that they don't give two hoots about cyclists in accidents unless the cyclist is seriously injured or dead as a result. The attitude improved somewhat when Gardai started cycling themselves but you don't see too many of them on bicycles these days.

The rules of the road in Ireland and the timing of traffic lights, layout of junctions etc. all combine to make cycling very unsafe. The attitude on Ireland's roads is that cyclists are a lower life form and shouldn't be making life inconvenient for bigger more important car drivers. Bus drivers treat cyclists as hunting quarry in cycle lanes. I have found the worst offenders to be red Gray Line tourist buses. Tourists must be shocked to see how cyclists are treated on Irish roads.

Most motorists don't bother indicating when they are turning left. If a vehicle indicates left I will stay behind them. If not what am I (or any other cyclist) to do?

The Dublinbikes scheme and the Bike to Work scheme were great but they released a lot of inexperienced cyclists onto the roads. This was fine before the economy picked up (in Dublin only, the rest of the country is still f*d) but once traffic increased the aggression increased with it and some cyclists aren't able for this. Abiding rigidly by the rules of the road is often dangerous for cyclists. This should not be the case but I have had to break the law on countless occasions to avoid injury or death.

Until Dublin's cycling intrastructure improves cyclists have to do whatever they can to survive. Unfortunately if a cyclist isn't willing to cycle aggressively and not be afraid to p*** bigger more powerful road users off (making themselves highly visible in the process) they're toast.

beauf

Emme wrote: »

... Abiding rigidly by the rules of the road is often dangerous for cyclists. This should not be the case but I have had to break the law on countless occasions to avoid injury or death.....

This is true. But the vast majority aren't doing it for that reason.

NUTLEY BOY

So very sorry for that young woman and whoever is now left to grieve. R.I.P..

BTW any of you cyclists new to UCD please watch yourselves at the junction across the road from the front gate.

I know this junction very well and am amazed at how idiot drivers are still coming up behind you at speed, overtaking and turning left straight in front of you as you go straight ahead in the marked cycle lane. This has happened to me every bloody day for the last week but it is not a problem because I expect it. The unwary might not expect it.

Here is a Google Maps link https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3092599,-6.216883,3a,90y,121.3h,79.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPyjx03GzeEji_mAso8h6Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Carawaystick

cython wrote: »

should a truck driver sit motionless until

A person driving a vehicle should stay stopped until they are sure it is safe to proceed. If they do not know, or are unable to find out, then they should stay stopped.

cython wrote: »

And as for the (I hope!) rhetorical question of what a life should be valued at, regardless of this a better question in my view would be who should have to foot the bill for such retrofits? Should the tax payer pay, in the public interest? Should hauliers foot the bill, even though a significant component of the need stems from some other road users being too dumb to exercise a bit of common sense? Or should we levy extra taxes on bicycles for it, since it seems to be cyclists that come a cropper from ending up in these blind spots?

The person bringing the dangerous thing into public should pay to make it less dangerous. Otherwise some other person doing the same work in a safer manner is disadvantaged.

People cycling or people walking need to pass no minimum standards. HGV drivers need to have their eyesight checked, their driving is licensed and they must hold a cert of professional competence. They should expect people to do stupid things, as people are stupid.

Moflojo

Below are some of my musings on how the junction in question could be improved for cycle traffic.

Existing:


Proposed:

Wishbone Ash

Moflojo wrote: »

Below are some of my musings on how the junction in question could be improved for cycle traffic.

That depends on your definition of 'improved'. I'll take my chances on the existing junction rather than use that system which wouldn't be utilised by the majority of cyclists. Otherwise we could 'improve' every junction by simply dismounting and walking along the footpath.

Moflojo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That depends on your definition of 'improved'. I'll take my chances on the existing junction rather than use that system which wouldn't be utilised by the majority of cyclists. Otherwise we could 'improve' every junction by simply dismounting and walking along the footpath.

I'd imagine the majority would use the dedicated Royal Canal Greenway if it was put in place, that's my main point with the image. The other main point is that there's currently no straightforward route for northbound cyclists to get from the canal-side cycle path onto Seville Place.

Weepsie

Moflojo wrote: »

I'd imagine the majority would use the dedicated Royal Canal Greenway if it was put in place, that's my main point with the image. The other main point is that there's currently no straightforward route for northbound cyclists to get from the canal-side cycle path onto Seville Place.

I was talking about that cycleway yesterday. It's not fit for purpose. Better off using the road. You see eejits cutting across the road to get onto the lane going northbound or coming from Mayor Square direction, and then they've to cut back across. The Road is the safest option on this stretch going northbound, even with the on street parking.

Skrynesaver

Weepsie wrote: »

I was talking about that cycleway yesterday. It's not fit for purpose. Better off using the road. You see eejits cutting across the road to get onto the lane going northbound or coming from Mayor Square direction, and then they've to cut back across. The Road is the safest option on this stretch going northbound, even with the on street parking.

Blanch into Phibbsborough is usable if a bit rough after Ashtown, but the gates are painful in spots...

DanDublin1982

A really bad couple of weeks for road deaths in general and cyclists in particular (purely in terms of numbers I mean).

Ive read this thread with interest and there are some fine ideas in it but unfortunately there isn't a magic answer to solve all this. My real issue is that those with the power to (try) change behaviour, to provide information, to provide better infrastructure just seem utterly disinclined to do so. As a cyclist that is really disheartening.

Rip to all those who have passed.

Carawaystick

Moflojo wrote: »

I'd imagine the majority would use the dedicated Royal Canal Greenway if it was put in place, that's my main point with the image. The other main point is that there's currently no straightforward route for northbound cyclists to get from the canal-side cycle path onto Seville Place.

There's no straightforward route for northbound cyclists to get to the cycle track from Cardiff lane...

2RockMountain

Emme wrote: »

The attitude improved somewhat when Gardai started cycling themselves but you don't see too many of them on bicycles these days.

This is a small, but interesting, and possibly quite important point. I don't see Gardai on bikes on general patrols any more. I do see them at big events around Croker or Landsdowne, but not out on general patrol. There used to be one 'bicycle Garda' in Dundrum station, but I haven't see him or a replacement for years.

What's happening on this?

DanDublin1982

I work very near store st Garda station and see the cycle gards coming and going most days.

Fighting Tao

2RockMountain wrote: »

This is a small, but interesting, and possibly quite important point. I don't see Gardai on bikes on general patrols any more. I do see them at big events around Croker or Landsdowne, but not out on general patrol. There used to be one 'bicycle Garda' in Dundrum station, but I haven't see him or a replacement for years.

What's happening on this?

I see them often between Guild St and the point. Particularly at the spar on Castleforbes road which is a favourite spot for gardai to have a coffee.

robyntmorton

2RockMountain wrote: »

This is a small, but interesting, and possibly quite important point. I don't see Gardai on bikes on general patrols any more.

I was talking to a cycle Garda on a general patrol in Sandymount on Sunday. It is getting more rare to see them though.

Moflojo

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's no straightforward route for northbound cyclists to get to the cycle track from Cardiff lane...

That's true too. From what I can make out the major North-South cycle artery is meant to run from the Grand Canal at Clanwilliam Place>Clanwilliam Terrace>Grand Canal Quay>Through Grand Canal Square>Forbes Street>Onto the cycleway at Sir John Rogersons Quary.

The problems with the link between the Grand Canal and Sir John Rogerson's Quay are as follows:
- Awkward crossing/infrastructure to get from Clanwilliam Place to Clanwilliam Terrace.
- Cobbles from Clanwilliam Terrace along Grand Canal Quay & no dedicated bike lanes along here either.
- They've installed the Dublin Bikes station in the bike path across from Donnybrook fair.
- The landscaping and furniture in Grand Canal Square has created a massive conflict zone between cyclists and pedestrians.
- Forbes Street is a private street and has no cycle infrastructure.
- The junctions on Forbes Street at Lazer Lane and Horse Fair are lethal for cyclists: Rat run motorists fly out of and into both junctions without looking out for cyclists.

Apart from all that it's a pretty joined-up route though...

Chuchote

beauf wrote: »

Facial recognition would help here. Most will be repeat offenders on the same route every day/week.

But as red light breaking isn't a high % in accident stats it won't make much of a difference.

What would be great would be facial recognition, for instance at the lights at Parliament Street and the Olympia in Dame Street, where cyclists tend to sail through, and a garda shooting these fish in a barrel at George's Street, where they do stop, and fining them on the spot. And publicity when it happens. These are not safe places to go straight through; I've seen pedestrians hobble out of the way…

Gardaí on bikes: I'm not in Bushy Park these days, my dog being too old for that walk now, but I used to see them patrolling there regularly (a very nice cycle, as it happens ). I used to see them in Rathmines, Harold's Cross and Kimmage, but they seem to have disappeared from all three - as have all foot patrols. Maybe they're watching too much Kojak for an appreciation of chatty community policing.

Ishmael

Moflojo wrote: »

That's true too. From what I can make out the major North-South cycle artery is meant to run from the Grand Canal at Clanwilliam Place>Clanwilliam Terrace>Grand Canal Quay>Through Grand Canal Square>Forbes Street>Onto the cycleway at Sir John Rogersons Quary.

The problems with the link between the Grand Canal and Sir John Rogerson's Quay are as follows:
- Awkward crossing/infrastructure to get from Clanwilliam Place to Clanwilliam Terrace.
- Cobbles from Clanwilliam Terrace along Grand Canal Quay & no dedicated bike lanes along here either.
- They've installed the Dublin Bikes station in the bike path across from Donnybrook fair.
- The landscaping and furniture in Grand Canal Square has created a massive conflict zone between cyclists and pedestrians.
- Forbes Street is a private street and has no cycle infrastructure.
- The junctions on Forbes Street at Lazer Lane and Horse Fair are lethal for cyclists: Rat run motorists fly out of and into both junctions without looking out for cyclists.

Apart from all that it's a pretty joined-up route though...

And the Absolutely bonkers layout between John Rodgersons Quay and the East side of the SB bridge. It is 1 bicycle wide and puts you in multiple conflict zones with other cyclists and pedestrians even though the bridge has a two-way cycle lane and a footpath and so does the the Quay further away from the bridge.

NeedMoreGears

beauf wrote: »

Why do we not have number plate recognition here for traffic offences?

We do - speeding cameras.

Certain additional offences should re pretty amenable to camera based enforcement - breaking red lights, crossing the white lines.

Others wouldn't - cutting across someone in a dangerous way , driving under the influence and of course most offences committed by road users who don't have registration plates

beauf

If we have them I don't understand how people are not forced of the road by fines and points. Or how behaviour is getting worse.

terrydel

The poor girl has been named.
Putting a face and name to this tragedy really does hammer it home, I'd a lump in my throat reading it.

ED E

Lumen wrote: »

That seems like a rather naive and ambitious change in culture you're proposing, and not only of AGS.

A given set of garda resources can either be concentrated (which means some offences will get largely ignored) or spread thinly (so certain previously high-priority offences will get lower levels of attention).

I'd really rather just cycle round the obstruction and leave the Gardai to focus on catching violent scumbags or whatever.

The gardai have the resources IMO, and the commissioner has said it, its them being wasted. A pair on foot patrol can do their loop 10x or do it 2x and issue 20 tickets while they're at it. Maybe that "visibility" is worth more in your eyes but I'd much rather the tickets hit home.

We have an expectation of not being caught, go to Germany or Scandinavia (in urban areas) and they expect to be dealt with. The broken window theory doesnt just have to relate to non-traffic offences.

Guinness for example park in yellow boxes opposite Rathmines Garda Station and Pearse Street. The latter being a complete death trap. Makes you wonder why we have a Traffic Corps.

secman

Devastation for her Father and her partner who she was planning on marrying, roller coaster for her partner , with the high of the referendum result last year and losing her partner this year. Terrible loss of life. RIP

MediaMan

The discussion on this thread illustrates quite clearly I think that, although specific collisions have varying causes, the levels of injury and death on our roads are, in the long run a matter of economics.

Society as a whole is willing to accept that significant numbers of people will suffer, because the cost of preventing collisions is deemed too high to pay. The benefits to society of allowing vehicles to go about their business as they do today is deemed sacrosanct.

There is slow incremental progress in making the roads safer, but I think we need a much more radical approach.

Ronaldinho

MediaMan wrote: »

The discussion on this thread illustrates quite clearly I think that, although specific collisions have varying causes, the levels of injury and death on our roads are, in the long run a matter of economics.

Society as a whole is willing to accept that significant numbers of people will suffer, because the cost of preventing collisions is deemed too high to pay. The benefits to society of allowing vehicles to go about their business as they do today is deemed sacrosanct.

There is slow incremental progress in making the roads safer, but I think we need a much more radical approach.

Don't wholly agree with this. People cause road fatalities, not economics. Sure - throwing some money at the issue will have a marginal benefit but as the next poster says it's really about attitudes and behaviours, and money is no panacea to solve this problem. There's always going to be people making bad decisions; speeding, drink-driving whatever.

magicbastarder

just thinking out loud here, but how feasible would it be, to have as a corollary to the five axle ban in the city centre, a three and four axle permitted network?
i.e. signs showing which roads goods vehicles can use, so where necessary, the signs will warn cyclists of possible goods vehicles on the roads? i suspect such an idea would be stymied by the ubiquitous delivery requirements of businesses all over the city, but i was wondering if there's a clever way of combining this with the 30km/h limit, due to be extended.
e.g. a 30km/h limit could also include a four axle ban say, which might ease the idea of suggested through routes for cyclists.

Corca Baiscinn

Deedsie wrote: »

So a nationwide campaign targeting everyone to improve the behaviour and attitude of all road users.

I agree that a campaign targeting behaviour would be helpful but the other successful campaigns you mention were accompanied by enforcement so that the errant behaviour, ie not wearing a seat-belt, drink driving were targeted.
I think we need a mix of infrastructure, legislation, behaviour change and enforcement and all areas are sadly lacking at the minute. Witness the decision re postponing cycling infrastructure in Dublin, the unpicking of the mandatory/non-mandatory cycle lane situation, no commitment on a mandatory 1.5 overtaking distance and as posters have mentioned wholesale ignoring of parking in cycle lanes and similar behaviour that puts cyclists at risk. So the issues need to be tackled at multiple levels. Every commuter cyclist and leisure cyclist in the country should at a minimum email Shane Ross as per the template provided by cyclist.ie on the Dublin Cycling Campaign website. The Minister also needs to be lobbied in his constituency where cycling is popular, after all it's not going to be 5 years to the next election. and if anyone here cycles to UCD, (also in Minister's constituency) they might consider mobilising the battalion of student cyclists to do the same