Cyclist killed in Dublin

Chuchote

It's never automatically money. For instance, friends who live in Portarlington say that in their town, if a swimming pool or a new library or a facility for the school is needed, local people stand up and start earning the money, and buy it, whereas other towns wait for the government to hand it to them.

But it is often money. If there were a network of separated, protected cycle lanes, cyclists would be in less danger. And this is not a thing one can buy for oneself. I'd love a separated cycle lane in Rathmines or from Harold's Cross down Clanbrassil Street, or in Kimmage, but I can't raise the money to do it.

It's economics, but it's not always economics that we can control.

tomasrojo

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

The Minister also needs to be lobbied in his constituency where cycling is popular, after all it's not going to be 5 years to the next election.

What's the best way to lobby TDs on issues like this? I've already emailed him, but I didn't mention that I live in his constituency. It would have sounded like a rather clumsy threat, I thought, especially as he came first in the constituency by some distance. I suspect he won't get as many first-preference votes in the next election, but he might feel pretty secure anyway.

Chuchote

tomasrojo wrote: »

What's the best way to lobby TDs on issues like this? I've already emailed him, but I didn't mention that I live in his constituency. It would have sounded like a rather clumsy threat, I thought, especially as he came first in the constituency by some distance. I suspect he won't get as many first-preference votes in the next election, but he might feel pretty secure anyway.

"I live in your constituency" doesn't sound like a threat, it sounds like "I could vote for you… so listen carefully and courteously to what I say, as I do to what you say as my representative."

Otherwise, maybe it would be good to invite him out on a spin.

If he comes - and he may well, since you're a constituent - listen more than talking, but do talk about the difficulties of cycling and how he could make them better and make cycling safer as minister. And talk about the good things that have been done, like the cycleways that are already built, and the increasing numbers of badly-needed bike racks. Have lots of figures at your fingertips. Invite him for coffee and cake somewhere nice on the route.

tomasrojo

Chuchote wrote: »

"I live in your constituency" doesn't sound like a threat, it sounds like "I could vote for you… so listen carefully and courteously to what I say, as I do to what you say as my representative."

Otherwise, maybe it would be good to invite him out on a spin.

If he comes - and he may well, since you're a constituent - listen more than talking, but do talk about the difficulties of cycling and how he could make them better and make cycling safer as minister. And talk about the good things that have been done, like the cycleways that are already built, and the increasing numbers of badly-needed bike racks. Have lots of figures at your fingertips. Invite him for coffee and cake somewhere nice on the route.

Unfortunately, I feel like kicking him repeatedly in the arse, so I think this level of diplomatic wooing is beyond me.

robyntmorton

tomasrojo wrote: »

Unfortunately, I feel like kicking him repeatedly in the arse, so I think this level of diplomatic wooing is beyond me.

Maybe just destroy him on every Strava segment then?

Chuchote

tomasrojo wrote: »

Unfortunately, I feel like kicking him repeatedly in the arse, so I think this level of diplomatic wooing is beyond me.

You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

magicbastarder

tomasrojo wrote: »

What's the best way to lobby TDs on issues like this? I've already emailed him, but I didn't mention that I live in his constituency. It would have sounded like a rather clumsy threat, I thought, especially as he came first in the constituency by some distance.

no reason not to mail him even if he did win by a large margin - he was elected to represent his constituents.

i once emailed bertie ahern's office 'as a constituent', but that was specifically in relation to him not attending the dail as he was by then an ex-taoiseach (and thus the topic was me not being fully represented in the dail by the TDs selected in our constituency). he responded to me himself, or at least someone did pretending to be him, spelling mistakes included.

Chuchote

Shane Ross has just hired a 'media advisor' for €80,000 per year; a candidate for his own Independent Alliance who wasn't elected by the people of Dun Laoghaire, and a Sindo writer:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ross-hires-independent-candidate-as-80k-adviser-35028150.html

I suppose it's too much to hope that she's a cyclist

Edit: oh, dear

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/carol-hunt-we-need-to-enforce-cycling-laws-i-dont-want-to-get-hit-again-31425898.html
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/carol-hunt-cycling-can-be-a-very-dangerous-pursuitfor-us-pedestrians-31304120.html#st_refDomain=t.co&st_refQuery=/RwlbsEZeAj

Firedance

How about a social media campaign? in the absence of any proper infrastructure, or the Garda enforcing rules of the road (for anyone) can we encourage each other to be better road users? https://www.facebook.com/I-promise-to-be-a-better-road-user-MotoristCyclistPedestrian-etc-318287425191895/

magicbastarder

that FB page is preaching to the converted, though.

Firedance

magicbastarder wrote: »

that FB page is preaching to the converted, though.

Well, if everyone shared it and asked their friends to share it it might make the unconverted think? Might be worth a try?

Chuchote

I don't do Facebook, find it baffling and nasty; got rid of my Facebook account after having to change my privacy settings (each time finding them hidden in a new place) several times in a few days.

The main place a (social or other) media campaign would be effective is through bringing radio presenters out for a cycle on their local roads. The radio presenters of Dublin are behaving to cyclists somewhat as the Hutu radio presenters of Rwanda behaved during the 1990s:

http://www.rwandanstories.org/genocide/hate_radio.html

2RockMountain

Chuchote wrote: »

You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I'm not so sure. If we learn anything from the water charges debacle, it is that nice guys finish last. I have huge respect for those who have put huge work into the Dublin Cycling Campaign and cyclist.ie - but sometimes I think that they are a little too respectable and a little too professional.

Very few politicians are listening to cycling issues - probably two TDs and one councillor that I can think of in Dublin. We need to get political attention, and I think we need to start getting a bit obstreperous, a bit in-your-face, a bit noisy and a bit difficult. Let's be the squeaky wheel (metaphorically).

Weepsie

Chuchote wrote: »

Shane Ross has just hired a 'media advisor' for €80,000 per year; a candidate for his own Independent Alliance who wasn't elected by the people of Dun Laoghaire, and a Sindo writer:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ross-hires-independent-candidate-as-80k-adviser-35028150.html

I suppose it's too much to hope that she's a cyclist

Edit: oh, dear

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/carol-hunt-we-need-to-enforce-cycling-laws-i-dont-want-to-get-hit-again-31425898.html
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/carol-hunt-cycling-can-be-a-very-dangerous-pursuitfor-us-pedestrians-31304120.html#st_refDomain=t.co&st_refQuery=/RwlbsEZeAj

Why does a TD, or minister need a press officer on 80 k a year. Shane Ross has quickly become as bad as any FF, FG, Labour, PD TD. Another pig at the trough doing little of the work elected to do

magicbastarder

Firedance wrote: »

Well, if everyone shared it and asked their friends to share it it might make the unconverted think? Might be worth a try?

from that page:
"Motorists promise:
To give 150m+ space when overtaking a cyclist "

Chuchote

An important thing in changing drivers' perception is to behave with an old-fashioned courtliness, not only signalling but waving thanks to drivers when they treat you considerately, and keeping (as much as possible, given that you can't always see through windscreens) occasional eye contact with drivers.

For instance, yesterday I cycled to the front of a stationary queue of traffic, signalling that I was going right. I then stopped in the cyclist box, turned around and signalled right, looking to the driver in the front car. She smiled and gave me a wave.

Good piece here on "why drivers hate cyclists", suggesting that drivers see cyclists as outside the common good:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

magicbastarder

i reckon the (oft missed open goal) of getting rid of motor tax and putting the foregone revenue on top of tax on fuel, would possibly remove some of the sense of entitlement some motorists have in regards to the 'right' to use the road. because that's often what annoys motorists, the 'free ride' aspect of using a bike.

Chuchote

Chuchote wrote: »

An important thing in changing drivers' perception is to behave with an old-fashioned courtliness, not only signalling but waving thanks to drivers when they treat you considerately, and keeping (as much as possible, given that you can't always see through windscreens) occasional eye contact with drivers.

For instance, yesterday I cycled to the front of a stationary queue of traffic, signalling that I was going right. I then stopped in the cyclist box, turned around and signalled right, looking to the driver in the front car. She smiled and gave me a wave.

Good piece here on "why drivers hate cyclists", suggesting that drivers see cyclists as outside the common good:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

Agree. The human touch of little things like waving or saying thank you with a hand gesture go a long way.

Leroy42

ronoc wrote: »

Agree. The human touch of little things like waving or saying thank you with a hand gesture go a long way.

Not diagreeing that being polite is the right way to behave, but what exactly are we thanking these people for?

We are not there subject to their mood, it is not down to their good grace as to whether they decide to endanger a cyclist or not.

I think this is part of the problem. Cyclists, and particularly drivers, feel that cyclists are not part of the traffic and it is their good grace that is keeping the cyclists alive.

We need to change the mindset that the car is the owner of the road. This is a very deeply held view by almost everyone, helped throughout years by the motor manufacturers and the dream of the open road etc etc.

Even from a environmental point of view we need to move away from this obsession for personal car ownership with the cities. Of course outside the main centres this is not feasable, but anybody living in the city limits of Dublin really should have no reason to drive into town - I fully accept that at present due to the lack & costs of public transport this is not the case.

Kids cycling to school should be the norm. Changing facilities and lockers should be provided. No space is always the refrain, but you only need to remove a few parking spaces to create the space.

Until we move away from thinking about cycling/walking/public transport as a secondary concern to private motorists the problem will continue to exist.

The time of unlimited personal car ownership and the personal car being the no1 on the road should have had its day. Its time to reimagine the set up rather than simply continue to operate because of flawed decisions in the past.

Look at it from a simple economic point of view. Blanch Shopping centre. The cost of all that land required for all the car parking. Then there is maintenace, stewards etc etc. Would it not be a better option to offer cheap public transport and/or delivery of shopping and use the saved space for more shops or something else that generates income. It just seems a momumental waste of resources just to continue the obession with private travel.

Chuchote

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not diagreeing that being polite is the right way to behave, but what exactly are we thanking these people for?

We are not there subject to their mood, it is not down to their good grace as to whether they decide to endanger a cyclist or not.

I think this is part of the problem. Cyclists, and particularly drivers, feel that cyclists are not part of the traffic and it is their good grace that is keeping the cyclists alive.

We need to change the mindset that the car is the owner of the road. This is a very deeply held view by almost everyone, helped throughout years by the motor manufacturers and the dream of the open road etc etc.

Even from a environmental point of view we need to move away from this obsession for personal car ownership with the cities. Of course outside the main centres this is not feasable, but anybody living in the city limits of Dublin really should have no reason to drive into town - I fully accept that at present due to the lack & costs of public transport this is not the case.

Kids cycling to school should be the norm. Changing facilities and lockers should be provided. No space is always the refrain, but you only need to remove a few parking spaces to create the space.

Until we move away from thinking about cycling/walking/public transport as a secondary concern to private motorists the problem will continue to exist.

Agree with everything you say except for "what are we thanking these people for". In that case, the answer is "the same thing we thank other drivers and cyclists for when we're driving, with a quick flash of the hazards or headlights - courtesy and helpfulness to us as other road users".

I saw today that the current number of children cycling to school in Ireland is just 6,000 :eek:

seachto7

Chuchote wrote: »

I saw today that the current number of children cycling to school in Ireland is just 6,000 :eek:

Maybe parents don't think it's safe for lots of different reasons?

Chuchote

seachto7 wrote: »

Maybe parents don't think it's safe for lots of different reasons?

All those hysterical reports of attempts to kidnap children? If children (and some parents) were cycling on protected lanes, this would be far less likely, not that it's a likely risk now. Obesity, yes, that's a big risk.

the.red.baron

How many drivers haven't cycled at some point?

Do they all hate themselves?


I drive, I cycle, do I hate myself?


An existential crisis if ever I heard one.


30 years, Man and I boy, I tell, you I've been cycling, country roads, mean city streets, to school, to work, 40k a day

And it's a joy, I get plenty of respect on the roads and can't remember the last time I got hassle.

Sure there are dicks out there, but I find they are evenly spread out and few and far between.

schemingbohemia

magicbastarder wrote: »

i reckon the (oft missed open goal) of getting rid of motor tax and putting the foregone revenue on top of tax on fuel, would possibly remove some of the sense of entitlement some motorists have in regards to the 'right' to use the road. because that's often what annoys motorists, the 'free ride' aspect of using a bike.

It would mess up our inflation rate significantly so is a non-runner for that reason, in New Zealand they actually include (or did) an insurance levy on petrol which means everyone is covered for 3rd party insurance automatically.

recedite

mr spuckler wrote: »

there was a post last week on that very point, with a link to studies showing it to be the case. will see if i can dig it out.
here you go.
from here

Its sobering to think this is a well known issue, and yet people are still dying. From the link;

The study states: ‘Women may be overrepresented in [collisions with goods vehicles] because they are less likely than men to disobey red lights.’ By jumping red lights, men are less likely to be caught in a lorry driver’s blind spot. Cyclists may wait at the lights just in front of a lorry, not realising that they are difficult to see. In more than half the fatal crashes, the lorry was turning left.

Simple solutions, such as improved mirrors and/or transparent side doors and/or cameras fitted onto lorries. These are well known, but why aren't they mandatory?

And not designing a cycle lane that suddenly ends and becomes a 6 inch space between a narrow road and a steel railing. That would make sense.

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Was there not a plan or proposal to remove railings from the footpaths around traffic lights and pedestrian crossings. The logic being that as a cyclist or pedestrian if you found yourself in a dangerous situation then you could at least go up on the path fairly easily??

Never heard of it. But a low railing (maybe between knee high and waist high?) would still deter pedestrians from jaywalking out onto the junction, while also affording the cyclist some possibility of escape, in the event that a lorry was cutting in on them at the corner.

maybe its been said earlier in the thread - but a lot more cyclists out today on the roads due to bus strike - they were reporting that early this morning on Newstalk

Firedance

Deleted User wrote: »

maybe its been said earlier in the thread - but a lot more cyclists out today on the roads due to bus strike - they were reporting that early this morning on Newstalk

Actually there were far less cyclists on my commute this morning than on Tuesday..... I was expecting it to be chockablock! The quays were an absolute joy from the PP to O'Connell Bridge. That's just my trip of course and maybe there were more out later on. I certainly noticed a lot more pedestrians walking and the traffic through Castleknock and the PP was backed up much farther than usual.

magicbastarder

schemingbohemia wrote: »

It would mess up our inflation rate significantly so is a non-runner for that reason, in New Zealand they actually include (or did) an insurance levy on petrol which means everyone is covered for 3rd party insurance automatically.

i think south africa have the TP insurance on petrol also.
one issue in introducing such a scheme here is northern ireland; there'd be the usual murder from border petrol stations.

magicbastarder

hard to tell for certain, but this video (shot very near where the fatality occurred) seems to show the cyclist was undertaking the lorry?

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/video-emerges-of-cyclist-hit-by-turning-truck-in-dublin-city-this-is-scary/

jon1981

magicbastarder wrote: »

hard to tell for certain, but this video (shot very near where the fatality occurred) seems to show the cyclist was undertaking the lorry?

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/video-emerges-of-cyclist-hit-by-turning-truck-in-dublin-city-this-is-scary/

Not sure how you can tell?! The cyclist and truck were already at the same point when the video started. Perhaps the truck plainly didn't the cyclist and overtook the bicycle?!