Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Lake1989

bilston wrote: »

There are four like captaincy candidates, Warburton, AWJ, Best and Hartley. Hartley has damaged his chances today significantly.

I've said for a while I'd go for AWJ, but the second row is so competitive. That said if Gatland goes for a Welsh player then presumably he has to go for Warburton...otherwise why is he his Welsh captain?!

If Hartley gets a ban of longer than 8 or 9 weeks then he may well lose the England captaincy. If someone else leads England to a GS then they become a contender. No idea who would replace Hartley though.

England would likely revert to Robshaw. Looking at some english opinion today and a few journos and former players think Hartley will get a ban which will see him miss part of the 6n.

As for the Lions, think the test captain shouldnt be named until after the game a week before the first test.

Clegg

The Telegraph has a story in tomorrow's edition about Best being the front runner for Lions captaincy. Carrying quotes from Gatland praising Best's performances as Ireland captain over the last year.

Clegg

Ben Youngs simply can't start for the Lions. Munster/Leicester was hyped as clash between the two front runners for the Lions 9 jersey. But for me there's no competition. It has to be Murray. When Youngs gets front foot ball he can be electric. Makes breaks and links well. But he's especially bad when the game is scrappy. Every scrum half struggles when their pack is on the back foot but Youngs seems to be hit worse than most. His passing goes to pot.

Lake1989

Clegg wrote: »

Ben Youngs simply can't start for the Lions. Munster/Leicester was hyped as clash between the two front runners for the Lions 9 jersey. But for me there's no competition. It has to be Murray. When Youngs gets front foot ball he can be electric. Makes breaks and links well. But he's especially bad when the game is scrappy. Every scrum half struggles when their pack is on the back foot but Youngs seems to be hit worse than most. His passing goes to pot.

9 Murray 21 Youngs. If Webb gets back he also travels and has a shot at the 21 shirt.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

Ben Youngs simply can't start for the Lions. Munster/Leicester was hyped as clash between the two front runners for the Lions 9 jersey. But for me there's no competition. It has to be Murray. When Youngs gets front foot ball he can be electric. Makes breaks and links well. But he's especially bad when the game is scrappy. Every scrum half struggles when their pack is on the back foot but Youngs seems to be hit worse than most. His passing goes to pot.

Murray was far better than Youngs today. But as ever a scrum half can only be as good as his pack lets him, but even still Murray has to be favourite for the 9 jersey.

I reckon Youngs can offer something from the bench.

Bridge93

What I would like to see not what I expect be it injury or my just being wrong:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Stander
7. SOB
8. Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Farrell
13. Henshaw
14. L Williams
15. Hogg

16. George
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Gray
20. Warburton
21. Webb
22. S Williams
23. Watson

blackcard

bilston wrote: »

Murray was far better than Youngs today. But as ever a scrum half can only be as good as his pack lets him, but even still Murray has to be favourite for the 9 jersey.

I reckon Youngs can offer something from the bench.

Next week will tell a tale.

Professor Moriarty

Bridge93 wrote: »

What I would like to see not what I expect be it injury or my just being wrong:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Stander
7. SOB
8. Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Farrell
13. Henshaw
14. L Williams
15. Hogg

16. George
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Gray
20. Warburton
21. Webb
22. S Williams
23. Watson

Good choices but there are eight Irish players there and I suspect that England will have a good six nations which will see them have the largest representation.

Rightwing

Clegg wrote: »

Ben Youngs simply can't start for the Lions. Munster/Leicester was hyped as clash between the two front runners for the Lions 9 jersey. But for me there's no competition. It has to be Murray. When Youngs gets front foot ball he can be electric. Makes breaks and links well. But he's especially bad when the game is scrappy. Every scrum half struggles when their pack is on the back foot but Youngs seems to be hit worse than most. His passing goes to pot.

Correct.

Without Murray, Ireland/Lions are going nowhere fast.

former total

bilston wrote: »

Murray was far better than Youngs today. But as ever a scrum half can only be as good as his pack lets him, but even still Murray has to be favourite for the 9 jersey.

I reckon Youngs can offer something from the bench.

Youngs was outstanding for England in November. If he replicates that in the Six Nations then he's got a very good chance of starting the tests. Yesterday won't affect his chances.

Edit: and everyone seems to be forgetting Rhys Webb, who is due back for the 6N.

Three great candidates for the jersey.

Gatland in the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/10/dylan-hartley-england-sending-off-warren-gatland-lions

It's funny, this reminds me a bit of his media interactions in the lead up to a match against Wales. Throwing a few wayward statements out to ratchet things up a bit. Interesting where things are all the same, obviously has concerns about Warburton staying fit, thought it was a slightly gruff reference.

Senator Palpatine

Is anyone heading over to NZ?

Professor Moriarty

Senator Palpatine wrote: »

Is anyone heading over to NZ?

Looking for a lift?

Earl Woods

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Looking for a lift?

Already booked!

Professor Moriarty

Earl Woods wrote: »

Already booked!

Lucky and rich!

Earl Woods

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Lucky and rich!

If you organise it yourself, it's not so bad.

Clegg

Gatland on Henshaw and Furlong. You'd have to guess that they're in with a very good shot of starting the tests. He'll probably talk up players from all 4 Nations but these two are pushing especially hard for the starting spots.

"From an Irish point of view, I've been really impressed with Furlong," Gatland told Sky Sports. "He's done a great job. Hopefully his form continues as well. Henshaw was really outstanding in Chicago before he picked up that knock."

.ak

I'm going just doing this for my own entertainment... want to look back at this AFTER the 6N has finished, but my pre-6N 23 based on form from Europe and a little guess work...

01. M. Vunipola
02. Hartley
03. Furlong
04. Iotje
05. AWJ
06. Stander
07. Warburton
08. Heaslip
09. Murray
10. Farrell
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Davies
14. Byrne (thanks Will!)
15. Hogg

16. Best
17. McGrath
18. Cole
19. Henderson
20. SOB
21. Youngs
22. Russell
23. L. Williams

bilston

Four potential bolters

Garry Ringrose - A big 6Ns and he can definitely make the tour, and once there who knows, I don't think there are any outstanding candidates at 13.

Jamie George - His biggest issue is that the England captain plays his position, he is might be a better hooker than Hartley already. He is more likely to stay on the field which is a good start.

Sam Davies - I think this kid is class. Will Wales pick him over Biggar? Doubtful, but I reckon Gatland may take him to NZ as the 2017 version of Stuart Hogg.

Tommy Seymour - Not so much a bolter at this stage as he has been a try machine all season. Many would have him in the test side at the moment.

penybont exile

bilston wrote: »

Four potential bolters

Garry Ringrose - A big 6Ns and he can definitely make the tour, and once there who knows, I don't think there are any outstanding candidates at 13.

Jamie George - His biggest issue is that the England captain plays his position, he is might be a better hooker than Hartley already. He is more likely to stay on the field which is a good start.

Sam Davies - I think this kid is class. Will Wales pick him over Biggar? Doubtful, but I reckon Gatland may take him to NZ as the 2017 version of Stuart Hogg.

Tommy Seymour - Not so much a bolter at this stage as he has been a try machine all season. Many would have him in the test side at the moment.

IMO Sam Davies should be in the Wales team for Sunday (with Biggar @12 and S Williams @13)

Can't see him going on the Lions tour though.

Haven't seen enough of Ringrose .... bit hit and miss from what I have seen. Could easily have been the fault of a loss to Australia in the autumn with that very poor kick (option & execution) at the end.

pickarooney

Is a bolter a surprise pick or an uncapped player?

Sam Davies is the best young 10 I've seen (albeit briefly) in this part of the world for some time. Should be a star for Wales for years.

Former Former

pickarooney wrote: »

Is a bolter a surprise pick or an uncapped player?

Sam Davies is the best young 10 I've seen (albeit briefly) in this part of the world for some time. Should be a star for Wales for years.

There hasn't been an uncapped Lion since Will Greenwood in 1997.

I guess a bolter is someone who stakes his claims very late on, e.g. Keith Earls not featuring in the 2009 Six Nations but still going to South Africa, Stuart Hogg maybe in 2013.

MattD

Between 10, 12, 13 we're talking 8/9 players at most? It'll probably include Sexton, Ford, Farrell, Henshaw, Joseph, J. Davies and two others?

Plenty of room for someone to impress in the 6N, whoever plays Welsh OH or in the Scottish centre or Ringrose.

bilston

MattD wrote: »

Between 10, 12, 13 we're talking 8/9 players at most? It'll probably include Sexton, Ford, Farrell, Henshaw, Joseph, J. Davies and two others?

Plenty of room for someone to impress in the 6N, whoever plays Welsh OH or in the Scottish centre or Ringrose.

MattD wrote: »

Between 10, 12, 13 we're talking 8/9 players at most? It'll probably include Sexton, Ford, Farrell, Henshaw, Joseph, J. Davies and two others?

Plenty of room for someone to impress in the 6N, whoever plays Welsh OH or in the Scottish centre or Ringrose.

Finn Russell will most likely be there or thereabouts. I'd take him over Ford, however I'm not sure he has the killer instinct of Sexton or Farrell. That mentality is essential in NZ.

THFC198

I'll join .ak and predict a lions 23 pre 6N.
1-M. Vunipola
2-D. Hartley (C)
3-T. Furlong
4-M. Itoje
5-A.W. Jones
6-C.J Stander
7- J. Tipuric
8- B. Vunipola
9- C. Murray
10- J. Sexton
11- G. North
12- R. Henshaw
13- J. Joseph
14- A. Watson
15-S. Hogg

16-J. George
17-J. McGrath
18-W.P Nel
19-J. Gray
20-S. O'Brien
21-B. Youngs
22-O. Farrell
23- L. Williams

Nation break up
Ireland-7
Scotland-3
Wales-4
England-9

Synode

THFC198 wrote: »

Nation break up
Ireland-7
Scotland-3
Wales-4
England-9

This is a Gatland Lions team. No chance there'll only be 4 Welsh players

sydthebeat

Synode wrote: »

This is a Gatland Lions team. No chance there'll only be 4 Welsh players

actually theres a huge chance there would only be 4 (or less) welsh players in the preferred 23

of the usual suspects, AWJ woudl be on most peoples list to start
after that, North due to the lack of any stand out 11
Tipuric is a great player but backrow competition is huge.
Warburton may not even travel.
Halfpenny may not travel.
J Davies will be lucky to travel.
L williams will be lucky to make the 23 and may only get there due to his versatility.
Biggar may travel but will be in the dirt tracker squad.

theres not many others who can currently claim to be in with a good shout

THFC198

Synode wrote: »

This is a Gatland Lions team. No chance there'll only be 4 Welsh players

Who else would you have in the starting 23?

PTH2009

my green lions polo shirt just arrived from Lovell rugby. 52 euro including P&P and i got a free lions gym bag with it too

corny

I like Mako Vunipola for his work rate and carrying but call me old fashioned ....a front rower needs to be able to scrummage. McGrath>Vunipola.

swiwi_

Synode wrote: »

This is a Gatland Lions team. No chance there'll only be 4 Welsh players

I hope the debate gets above this.

Maybe it's just me but this comment is wheeled out incessantly by Irish rugby fans on multiple rugby forums.

It's just reeks of chip on shoulder.

I doubt Gatland feels remotely a massive allegiance to Wales such that he will ignore form and just robotically stack the lions with Welsh players.

It's kind of stuck record stuff at this stage although maybe I'm in a group of one holding this view...

Synode

You're entitled to your view, just as I am mine. And for me he showed clear preference to Welsh players, especially over Irish players in 2013.

But this has been done to death so let's leave it there and see what the squad looks like when he picks it

THFC198

I know it's announced post Heineken Cup QF but do we have an exact squad date?

The Lost Sheep

THFC198 wrote: »

I know it's announced post Heineken Cup QF but do we have an exact squad date?

Google it...
Think its 2/3 weeks after european quarters.

bilston

Synode wrote: »

You're entitled to your view, just as I am mine. And for me he showed clear preference to Welsh players, especially over Irish players in 2013.

But this has been done to death so let's leave it there and see what the squad looks like when he picks it

Wales were 6Ns champions in 2013 and GS champions in 2012, Ireland only avoided the Wooden Spoon on points difference in 2013. The Welsh players merited selection.

We'll see what happens in the forthcoming Championship.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

Wales were 6Ns champions in 2013 and GS champions in 2012, Ireland only avoided the Wooden Spoon on points difference in 2013. The Welsh players merited selection.

We'll see what happens in the forthcoming Championship.

Yeah. There was an argument for all of the decisions made. It was certainly disappointing to see 10 Welsh players in the final test but it's also unfair to say that any of them didn't deserve to be there.

Yeah_Right

swiwi_ wrote: »

I hope the debate gets above this.

Maybe it's just me but this comment is wheeled out incessantly by Irish rugby fans on multiple rugby forums.

It's just reeks of chip on shoulder.

I doubt Gatland feels remotely a massive allegiance to Wales such that he will ignore form and just robotically stack the lions with Welsh players.

It's kind of stuck record stuff at this stage although maybe I'm in a group of one holding this view...

I agree and disagree with you on this. Some Irish fans definitely do have a chip about Gatland. These fans believe that every Irish player (and their back ups) are better than their Welsh counterparts. It's an extension of the one-eyed provincialism that we tend see from some fans.

I don't think Gatland will shoot himself in the foot by picking a lesser player purely because he is Welsh. I do think that any 50/50 decisions between a Welsh player and one from another country, will lean towards the Welsh player due to familiarity. Gatland obviously knows the Welsh players better. And all coaches have their favourites.

swiwi_

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree and disagree with you on this. Some Irish fans definitely do have a chip about Gatland. These fans believe that every Irish player (and their back ups) are better than their Welsh counterparts. It's an extension of the one-eyed provincialism that we tend see from some fans.

I don't think Gatland will shoot himself in the foot by picking a lesser player purely because he is Welsh. I do think that any 50/50 decisions between a Welsh player and one from another country, will lean towards the Welsh player due to familiarity. Gatland obviously knows the Welsh players better. And all coaches have their favourites.

If it's genuinely a 50/50 decision, then it's not unreasonable to go with the devil you know than the one you don't.

In Ireland, the local/loyalty card permeates its way all through society. It's both a strength and a weakness. But people just assume that the local will favour the locals, because that tends to be the way Irish society works, it's why some Munster fans just assume Schmidt will automatically favour Leinster players.

I don't think you can take that world view and apply it outside of Irish borders.

I don't really like Gatland myself, mouth is too big for my liking, but he certainly has a tendancy to be a bit of a cult-hate figure among Irish rugby fans.

I won't agree with all his selection decisions for the Lions, but it won't be a case of simply picking as many Welsh players as possible.

THFC198

In fairness to Gatland, in 2013 Wales were the form team and he picked a team to win the series. Of course from an Irish point of view it's annoying that there were so few of the lads invovled. I think Gatland will pick a much more varied 23 this time as all 4 home nations are very much on the up (with Wales imo in the weakest position as they are going through a serious transition cycle)

lawred2

It isn't the Lions for me if it doesn't have reasonable involvement from the four nations...

Scottish, Irish and English people falling over themselves to support a predominantly Welsh side beat a poor Australia side was a bit cringey for me.

But I get why a coach like Gatland would select such a 15.

THFC198

I think the wider squad will always have a fair representation of each respective nation (mainly to stop one of the unions flipping out if they were completely left out) but imo once the squad comes together, national teams should very much take a back seat. The Lions is such a unique squad and I'd say once you're their it's irrelevant which nation you came from, much like the the lads from different provinces coming together for the Irish team

Granny15

If I were picking the Lions tomorrow I would have the entire English front five with possibly one of Farrell Joseph and Brown also starting.

Much as I hate to say it - that's the lay of land at the moment.

Granny15

Minus Hartley

lawred2

THFC198 wrote: »

I think the wider squad will always have a fair representation of each respective nation (mainly to stop one of the unions flipping out if they were completely left out) but imo once the squad comes together, national teams should very much take a back seat. The Lions is such a unique squad and I'd say once you're their it's irrelevant which nation you came from, much like the the lads from different provinces coming together for the Irish team

not remotely the same

One is a national side. The other is a touring exhibition side.

Bazzo

Granny15 wrote: »

If I were picking the Lions tomorrow I would have the entire English front five with possibly one of Farrell Joseph and Brown also starting.

Much as I hate to say it - that's the lay of land at the moment.

Don't think Dan Cole brings as much to the table as Furlong at the moment. In fact I'd say he's a little overrated, gets a bit of a pass because the rest of the tight 5 are so good.

Granny15

Bazzo wrote: »

Don't think Dan Cole brings as much to the table as Furlong at the moment. In fact I'd say he's a little overrated, gets a bit of a pass because the rest of the tight 5 are so good.

I'd have him in there plus probably Vunipola at 8.

flangemeistro

It's lucky for the other three nations that Schmidt wasn't allowed put his name down for contention as it would be a squad of 32 Irish.

Sure how could anyone else be selected when they're "not familiar with the setup"

lawred2

chortle

THFC198

lawred2 wrote: »

not remotely the same

One is a national side. The other is a touring exhibition side.

Obviously they're not the same type of team,there is many differences between a national and a lions team. My point was merely saying that fans would still support an Irish team if it was made of purely Munster players (or Connacht, Ulster or Leinster players). I certainly wouldn't expect Irish fans to just not support the team because they're favourite players weren't picked. In my opinion, and this is where people may disagree, the lions team is effectively a 'national' team that only plays every 4 years and is incredibly hard to make, which makes it special for players and fans alike

lawred2

THFC198 wrote: »

Obviously they're not the same type of team,there is many differences between a national and a lions team. My point was merely saying that fans would still support an Irish team if it was made of purely Munster players (or Connacht, Ulster or Leinster players). I certainly wouldn't expect Irish fans to just not support the team because they're favourite players weren't picked. In my opinion, and this is where people may disagree, the lions team is effectively a 'national' team that only plays every 4 years and is incredibly hard to make, which makes it special for players and fans alike

Yeah I definitely disagree