Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

The One Truth

English Lurker wrote: »

He's only just back from injury, no?

So is sexton, Faletau is a fave of Gatland's, if he's able to stand upright he'll pick him I fear

Buer

awec wrote:

Was mentioned today that Vunipola may be fit for the Ireland game.

He said himself a few days ago that it's unlikely he'll be available for it.

razorblunt

The One Truth wrote: »

I would think Toner is definitely in the mix , you know exactly what you're going to get with big Dev...But nobody does it better

You know what you're getting with every player, that's a nonsensical argument.
He offers nothing more than the other guys do, they surpass him in the loose.

Boscoirl

AWJ doesn't do himself any favours here

http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39092731

razorblunt

Boscoirl wrote: »

AWJ doesn't do himself any favours here

http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39092731

I was wondering what happened there as I definitely saw AWJ tell Biggar to go for the posts almost as soon as the penalty was given.

The One Truth

razorblunt wrote: »

You know what you're getting with every player, that's a nonsensical argument.
He offers nothing more than the other guys do, they surpass him in the loose.

He's actually a lot better on the deck than ma y give him credit for, he's well capable of jackaling and winning turnover ball.
His maul and lineout prowess is a given

Clegg

Tighthead selection will be interesting. Furlong has a firm grip on the starting shirt. That leaves Dan Cole on a bad position imo as for me he either starts or isn't in the squad at all.

Cosmo Kramer

Clegg wrote: »

Tighthead selection will be interesting. Furlong has a firm grip on the starting shirt. That leaves Dan Cole on a bad position imo as for me he either starts or isn't in the squad at all.

Not too many other tight head options though. No way you'd want to take the field against the ABs with any of the current Welsh or Scottish props.

Bridge93

English Lurker wrote: »

He's only just back from injury, no?

Yeah only really recently. Hasn't gotten s chance to stake a claim for club or country

The Pheasant2

When is WP Nel due back actually?

titan18

Any chance someone like Armitage or Abendanon get in? I couldn't imagine Gatland going with Abendanon (although I think he's good enough), but surely Armitage would have a shot

Teferi

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

When is WP Nel due back actually?

He's out for the entire campaign I think!

Cosmo Kramer

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

When is WP Nel due back actually?

Potentially may not be back according to some sources. Serious neck injury - not what you want as a prop.

blindside88

I would have thought that Murray, Sexton, Farrell and Hogg were nailed on Lions starters, I even had Farrell as a possible Lions captain but today must have been one of his poorest performances in an England jersey. I saw him brown the pants in thomond for sarries but today was worse than that

Faugheen

Lads

Could Sexton for Lions captain be completely out of the question?

The man is a natural leader, both leading by example and in organisation.

Teferi

Faugheen wrote: »

Lads

Could Sexton for Lions captain be completely out of the question?

The man is a natural leader, both leading by example and in organisation.

I'd say questions around his durability rule him out. Probably not the best lad to be dealing with a ref in a tense situation either. He's more a team/squad leader than a captain.

razorblunt

The One Truth wrote: »

He's actually a lot better on the deck than ma y give him credit for, he's well capable of jackaling and winning turnover ball.
His maul and lineout prowess is a given

I've yet to see him win a turnover, there were 2 occasions were there was ample opportunity for a pick but he stood as a pillar instead, similarly in the Scottish game, right before their 2nd penalty to last penalty he didn't bother trying to pick.

titan18 wrote: »

Any chance someone like Armitage or Abendanon get in? I couldn't imagine Gatland going with Abendanon (although I think he's good enough), but surely Armitage would have a shot

I think the days of a non International (current at least) getting picked are gone, in terms of "bolters" I think the likes of Ringrose and Daly would fit that mantle these days. Daly's versatility (though I think he excels at 13) should even see him force his way into the Test XV.

Tigerandahalf

Beginning to think that Stuart Hogg will end up at 14 with Halfpenny at 15. Liam Williams would probably be 11. I think that is the best back 3 combination.

Henshaw has been disappointing for me at 12. He goes into contact too often and doesn't release players into space enough. His distribution wouldn't be his biggest asset. Ringrose as a result hasn't had the platform to attack space. I wonder will Gatland try him at 15 in the warm up games.

I still think he will be in the team somewhere as he is very reliable making few mistakes or handling errors but he could be vulnerable if Farrell and Davies combine well together as a 12/13 combination.

In truth the Lions are fairly weak in the centre but Gatland tends to like a big guy at 12 so Henshaw is probably favoured.

I think Jared Payne has been completely forgotten about. Given that he is a top class performer at 13/15 bringing him would seem like a smart option. I'd imagine Joe Schimdt will bring him in if he is fit. He will also be very fresh for a Lions tour.

With two big games against Wales and England and the Scottish/Eng game a lot of guys could play themselves in or out of the picture.

The one notable thing so far is the lack of serious injuries. Hopefully there will be a full hand to play with.

It is still hard to call the team but the squad is looking a lot more certain.

I wouldn't be as confident as swiwi about NZ. They have had a lot of changes in personnel. Their backrow has struggled and Read is the only top performer there now unless Kaino comes back to form. Given that the weather conditions for the tour could be wet and windy will Barrett give them enough control in the 10 position? Plus there has been a lot of change in their 12/13 positions. Who would start for them there?

They do still have that natural counter attacking flair that would make you think they will score more tries than the Lions.

I wonder how Gatland will approach the tour. Will he want the ball kept tight and force penalties or will he give the backs more freedom to attack?

penybont exile

Faugheen wrote: »

Lads

Could Sexton for Lions captain be completely out of the question?

The man is a natural leader, both leading by example and in organisation.

Fly-halves make bad captains ...... from a fly-half and an (occasional) ex-captain ..........

AbusesToilets

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Beginning to think that Stuart Hogg will end up at 14 with Halfpenny at 15. Liam Williams would probably be 11. I think that is the best back 3 combination.

Henshaw has been disappointing for me at 12. He goes into contact too often and doesn't release players into space enough. His distribution wouldn't be his biggest asset. Ringrose as a result hasn't had the platform to attack space. I wonder will Gatland try him at 15 in the warm up games.

I still think he will be in the team somewhere as he is very reliable making few mistakes or handling errors but he could be vulnerable if Farrell and Davies combine well together as a 12/13 combination.

In truth the Lions are fairly weak in the centre but Gatland tends to like a big guy at 12 so Henshaw is probably favoured.

I think Jared Payne has been completely forgotten about. Given that he is a top class performer at 13/15 bringing him would seem like a smart option. I'd imagine Joe Schimdt will bring him in if he is fit. He will also be very fresh for a Lions tour.

With two big games against Wales and England and the Scottish/Eng game a lot of guys could play themselves in or out of the picture.

The one notable thing so far is the lack of serious injuries. Hopefully there will be a full hand to play with.

It is still hard to call the team but the squad is looking a lot more certain.

I wouldn't be as confident as swiwi about NZ. They have had a lot of changes in personnel. Their backrow has struggled and Read is the only top performer there now unless Kaino comes back to form. Given that the weather conditions for the tour could be wet and windy will Barrett give them enough control in the 10 position? Plus there has been a lot of change in their 12/13 positions. Who would start for them there?

They do still have that natural counter attacking flair that would make you think they will score more tries than the Lions.

I wonder how Gatland will approach the tour. Will he want the ball kept tight and force penalties or will he give the backs more freedom to attack?

I wouldn't have 1/2p in the team currently. Both Sexton and Farrell are excellent kickers, with Murray capable as well. I'd have Hogg, L. Williams and ANother as the back 3.

The real mccoy 91

The real mccoy 91 wrote:

It wouldn't suprise me at all if gatland had a chat with Warburton before and told him to resign and get his game right and then he'd be lions captain in the summer. Can't be having best hartley or awj who seem to be the 3 favs

Warburton was 22/1 yesterday to be named captain into 6/1 now wish I'd put my money where my mouth was

swiwi_

Each Super Rugby franchise putting out Lions Tour jerseys.

Here are the jerseys from the mainland of NZ anyway.

coco0981

razorblunt wrote: »

Daly's versatility (though I think he excels at 13) should even see him force his way into the Test XV.

If we are just going by current form then Daly should be a nailed on starter on the wing with Williams on the other. Hogg at fullback. Halfpennys kicking is less important as Farrell is guaranteed to be playing at 10 or 12

Dog Botherer

coco0981 wrote: »

If we are just going by current form then Daly should be a nailed on starter on the wing with Williams on the other. Hogg at fullback. Halfpennys kicking is less important as Farrell is guaranteed to be playing at 10 or 12

If Sexton travels and is fit I could see Farrell benching. Gatland hasn't played a playmaking 12 since Henson, and when he had that option on the last Lions tour he went for Roberts and BOD/Davies. Then again, the lack of options at centre means that Henshaw will almost certainly either play 12 or 13, with either Farrell at 12 or someone who has yet to stake a claim at 13. Perhaps one of Daly, Scott Williams, or one of the Scots. Ringrose could yet be a bolter.

If Farrell doesn't start then Daly almost will. Gatty likes having a backup kicker.

irishbucsfan

Farrell was only a chungfla on the last tour. Quite likely to start this time around I'd say.

.ak

swiwi_ wrote: »

Each Super Rugby franchise putting out Lions Tour jerseys.

Here are the jerseys from the mainland of NZ anyway.

Damnit, I just wanted one year where I didn't have to buy another Crusaders jersey...

swiwi_

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I wouldn't be as confident as swiwi about NZ. They have had a lot of changes in personnel. Their backrow has struggled and Read is the only top performer there now unless Kaino comes back to form. Given that the weather conditions for the tour could be wet and windy will Barrett give them enough control in the 10 position? Plus there has been a lot of change in their 12/13 positions. Who would start for them there?

The Lions tour schedule is tough. There is only one gimme game, the opening one in Whangarei. The NZ super rugby sides, when at full strength (which I think the Blues and Crusaders will be), will be tough games. All the NZ sides play at pace, and watching Super Rugby in the weekend, I'd forgotten how the NZ style is super fast ruck ball spread wide.

For NZ, there are lots of midfield possibilities, but choosing the right combination will be key.

I haven't been particularly impressed by the 6N in the sense of thinking "wow, there is a side that could really really worry NZ". Not to say the Lions can't win, but especially in the forwards it has all been a little bit pedestrian.

In recent seasons, NZ has been at its best mid-year, before fading (quite badly at times) by Autumn.

We see, I look forward to it, should be a good set of games.

CatFromHue

The finals for the Pro12 and Aviva are on the week before the first game so it's gonna go

Sat: Aviva + Pro12 Final
Sun: start Journey to NZ
Arrive either late on Mon night or Tue morn
Tue: acclimatise or light training
Wed: day off
Thurs: train
Fri: Captains Run
Sat: game v N BaaBaas
Sun: half training session
Mon: train
Tue: Captains run
Wed: game v Blues
Sat : game v Crusaders
Wed: game v Highlanders
Sat : game v Maori
Wed: game v Chiefs
Sat: 1 st Test

Considering it's looking like Leinster, Munster, Ospreys, Sarries, and Wasps will be in the mix for the Pro12 and Aviva final the amount of training the players will have before they start playing the games will be minimal, at the most!

That's some itinerary

The real mccoy 91

Dog Botherer wrote:

If Sexton travels and is fit I could see Farrell benching. Gatland hasn't played a playmaking 12 since Henson, and when he had that option on the last Lions tour he went for Roberts and BOD/Davies. Then again, the lack of options at centre means that Henshaw will almost certainly either play 12 or 13, with either Farrell at 12 or someone who has yet to stake a claim at 13. Perhaps one of Daly, Scott Williams, or one of the Scots. Ringrose could yet be a bolter.

What? Farrell is probably the second name on the sheet after itoje? To harbour any hopes of staying competitive down there farrell is a must in the XV

AbusesToilets

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

What? Farrell is probably the second name on the sheet after itoje? To harbour any hopes of staying competitive down there farrell is a must in the XV

Not sure about that at all. I'd say S. Williams, Henshaw and possibly Ringorose might have a shout.

Dog Botherer

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

What? Farrell is probably the second name on the sheet after itoje? To harbour any hopes of staying competitive down there farrell is a must in the XV

Nah, absolutely not. Very few players, if any, have made themselves definite picks. Furlong maybe. Sexton, if he's fit. Murray too. Itoje is a good shout. But that's mainly due to those 4 performing consistently at a world class level in all facets of their gameplay. Farrell is a solid 10, a good playmaking 12, and an excellent goalkicker but there's plenty of good goalkickers in the British Isles, and as I said, Gatland doesn't usually play a playmaking 12. He's not a 12 who'll get you over the gainline, he's not pacey, and he's not especially creative. Sexton is a better 10, and will start there ahead of Farrell if fit. If he isn't, then yeah, Farrell will almost definitely start, mainly due to the fact that Ford only seems to work as a fly half if partnered with Farrell, and Biggar and Russell are having wildly inconsistent seasons.

Farrell is a very good bench option in that he covers two very important positions to a high level, and also offering a world class goalkicking option to close out games.

Tigerandahalf

The 12 position is between Henshaw and Farrell.
You could still see Farrell at 10 as it is hard to see Sexton making it through all the games without some injury issue.

Given how tough the tour is and the pace NZ play at Gatland will need a good strong bench.

Itoje has played at 6 and hasn't looked great. Being selected there hasn't helped his cause for a starting 2nd row spot. Of all the 2nd rows he would give you the greatest impact from the bench.

Right now Furlong, McGrath, AWJ, Murray, Hogg look secure for a starting spot. McGrath has looked a bit jaded but the others are playing catchup.

Who is the backline coach for the Lions? Is it Howley? I presume Farrell is just covering defence.

Buer

With that schedule, I can see the Lions simply being wrecked by the time the test series comes along and having copped a handful of significant injuries. I don't think we'll get to see a full strength Lions vs a full strength NZ side at any point.

razorblunt

One thing I noticed over the weekend and forgot to comment on until now, is that Jonathan Davies seems to have dropped a few kg and picked up some speed in his legs.

wp_rathead

For me Farrell and Henshaw start for Test side
Either 10/12/13 of:
Sexton/Farrell/Henshaw or Farrell/Henshaw/Joseph

Clegg

I don't think Joseph is guaranteed to be in the test side. Hasn't done much to stake a claim this Six Nations and was dropped in the last round of fixtures. Very solid in defence though which is a plus.

I think Henshaw's performance in November will stand by him. Murray was Motm but Henshaw was brilliant as well. We've not seen much of him in open play this Six Nations but he is a very effective carrier on the crash and even getting the ball standing still has very good footwork and can be depended upon to make yards.

The real mccoy 91

Tigerandahalf wrote:

Right now Furlong, McGrath, AWJ, Murray, Hogg look secure for a starting spot. McGrath has looked a bit jaded but the others are playing catchup.

Mako being fit again will throw a spanner in that! And awj is far from secure he was outplayed by the gray brothers at the weekend and being overruled by Biggar probably hurts his chance even more

The real mccoy 91

AbusesToilets wrote:

Not sure about that at all. I'd say S. Williams, Henshaw and possibly Ringorose might have a shout.

Ah come on ya can't mention Scott Williams or ringrose in that conversation they are miles behind farrell one bad game doesn't make him a bad player he's been the best 10 in the northern hemisphere this season and has excelled in the 12 spot with Ford at 10 for england it's a combination that just works and is a big part of the reason England have won 14 odd games in a row or however many it is now.

Dog Botherer wrote:

Nah, absolutely not. Very few players, if any, have made themselves definite picks. Furlong maybe. Sexton, if he's fit. Murray too. Itoje is a good shout. But that's mainly due to those 4 performing consistently at a world class level in all facets of their gameplay. Farrell is a solid 10, a good playmaking 12, and an excellent goalkicker but there's plenty of good goalkickers in the British Isles, and as I said, Gatland doesn't usually play a playmaking 12. He's not a 12 who'll get you over the gainline, he's not pacey, and he's not especially creative. Sexton is a better 10, and will start there ahead of Farrell if fit. If he isn't, then yeah, Farrell will almost definitely start, mainly due to the fact that Ford only seems to work as a fly half if partnered with Farrell, and Biggar and Russell are having wildly inconsistent seasons.

Dog Botherer wrote:

Farrell is a very good bench option in that he covers two very important positions to a high level, and also offering a world class goalkicking option to close out games.

Sexton is a massive liability with how prone he is to injury. On his best days yes he is one of the best but let's not get ahead of ourselves here see if he gets through the next 2 physical games and make a judgement then. My gut tells me he won't last them 2 games tho. Well who's your idea of the best goalkickers that will be in the starting XV? Atm I'd only be looking at daly as a long range option I'd have hogg ahead of halfpenny and Ford ahead of sexton so that limits your options. If farrell is fit and doesn't start ill give up watching rugby

wp_rathead

Clegg wrote: »

I don't think Joseph is guaranteed to be in the test side. Hasn't done much to stake a claim this Six Nations and was dropped in the last round of fixtures. Very solid in defence though which is a plus.

I think Henshaw's performance in November will stand by him. Murray was Motm but Henshaw was brilliant as well. We've not seen much of him in open play this Six Nations but he is a very effective carrier on the crash and even getting the ball standing still has very good footwork and can be depended upon to make yards.

Joseph was "dropped" for Italy, he back in the squad for Scotland game and I'd like expect him to start that and I say he will travel with Lions (although Te'o or Davies could get nod)

Would love the Sexton, Farrell and Henshaw axis to be used - with back 3 of Stuart Hogg, Liam Williams and Elliot Daly
*drools*

Clegg

wp_rathead wrote: »

Joseph was "dropped" for Italy, he back in the squad for Scotland game and I'd like expect him to start that and I say he will travel with Lions (although Te'o or Davies could get nod)

Would love the Sexton, Farrell and Henshaw axis to be used - with back 3 of Stuart Hogg, Liam Williams and Elliot Daly
*drools*

He'll be part of the squad. But there's no 13 playing well enough at the moment who you can point to and say he's a definite it's for the test side.

wp_rathead

Clegg wrote: »

He'll be part of the squad. But there's no 13 playing well enough at the moment who you can point to and say he's a definite it's for the test side.

Yes I agree, but if it is Farrell, Henshaw,?13? -then I'd choose Joseph over the other options at the moment. But Henshaw 13, Farrell 12 would be my preferred partnership

Buer

Jonathan Davies is going to have a significant say in the 13 jersey yet.

Tigerandahalf

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

Mako being fit again will throw a spanner in that! And awj is far from secure he was outplayed by the gray brothers at the weekend and being overruled by Biggar probably hurts his chance even more

I read about that today. He wasn't overruled. He offered Halfpenny the shot at goal which he declined. Biggar didn't want to take the kick from Halfpenny so they went down the line.

I think sectors of the Welsh media don't like Biggar. Perhaps a bit of over confidence on his part.

The real mccoy 91

Tigerandahalf wrote:

I read about that today. He wasn't overruled. He offered Halfpenny the shot at goal which he declined. Biggar didn't want to take the kick from Halfpenny so they went down the line.

Tigerandahalf wrote:

I think sectors of the Welsh media don't like Biggar. Perhaps a bit of over confidence on his part.

I just read what Biggar said now too and it is still overruling awj the way he phrased it. 3 points down on the 22 and you turn down a shot at goal? Would sexton or farrell have kicked for goal? You can bet your life they would have! If you tried that **** with a Paul o Connell or Martin Johnson type captain how well do you think that would have went down?

Sangre

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

I just read what Biggar said now too and it is still overruling awj the way he phrased it. 3 points down on the 22 and you turn down a shot at goal? Would sexton or farrell have kicked for goal? You can bet your life they would have! If you tried that **** with a Paul o Connell or Martin Johnson type captain how well do you think that would have went down?

In the context of this debate, POC specifically said he would check with his OH and would be slow to overrule it if they didn't fancy the kick. Even for an easy kick, if a OH has a sudden tightness he may slower to take a kick.

Dog Botherer

Joseph, Williams, Davies, and Jones haven't exactly set the world alight this 6N. Ringrose has been better than all of them, but still probably won't travel due to inexperience. Payne remains a solid defensive option. Daly is probably the form 13 but he's playing all of his international rugby on the wing. Who knows, we could yet see a Henshaw/Roberts axis. BOSH.

AWJ will be lucky to make the dirttrackers on current form. Gatty clearly loves him but he hasn't played well for club or country since the AIs, where he was made look very good by a tremendously sh1t Welsh team. Itoje, Launchbury, and Jonny Gray are all currently ahead of him for me, with Big Dev and Richie Gray breathing down his neck.

McGrath has slipped down a bit in the order from "Definite First Choice" to "Definitely Touring". He had a poor game against Italy and hasn't been as effective around the park as he usually is. That said, he's coming up against a powderpuff Welsh pack next, and that'll let him get his mojo back a bit. England's scrum has creaked too, and he'll be looking to make a statement against his main contenders for the jersey.

Fullback is a puzzler. I'd probably go with Kearney to combat the AB's kicking game. Williams is a great fielder too but the lack of wing options means he's almost definitely not going to play 15. Hogg would score tries but he'd be targeted by NZ for sure. Halfpenny is a mediocre fullback, his kicking is 90% of the reason he gets selected. North, Zebo, May, and Watson have all underperformed on the wing. Nowell would be my pick. Very consistent, and an excellent poacher.

CMOTDibbler

Dog Botherer wrote: »

McGrath has slipped down a bit in the order from "Definite First Choice" to "Definitely Touring". He had a poor game against Italy and hasn't been as effective around the park as he usually is. That said, he's coming up against a powderpuff Welsh pack next, and that'll let him get his mojo back a bit. England's scrum has creaked too, and he'll be looking to make a statement against his main contenders for the jersey.

Just on McGrath. There's an article today in the 42 about the scrums. McGrath was being pulled down by Slimani and Nigel didn't spot it. It's clear as day when you look at the pictures that they include in the article.

Utopia Parkway

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

What? Farrell is probably the second name on the sheet after itoje? To harbour any hopes of staying competitive down there farrell is a must in the XV

Farrell is not guaranteed anything. There is every chance Sexton could be the 10 and Gatland has generally favoured a more physical abrasive 12 than a playmaking 12 so Farrell could even be squeezed out there.

That said between 10 and 12 I expect he'll get plenty of game time over there.

The real mccoy 91

Sangre wrote:

In the context of this debate, POC specifically said he would check with his OH and would be slow to overrule it if they didn't fancy the kick. Even for an easy kick, if a OH has a sudden tightness he may slower to take a kick.

Is this opening up a much bigger can of worms? Are Wales really in that much **** that they are supposed to have 2 world class goal kickers but neither of them are willing to step up and take a kick at goal on the 22?

AbusesToilets

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Just on McGrath. There's an article today in the 42 about the scrums. McGrath was being pulled down by Slimani and Nigel didn't spot it. It's clear as day when you look at the pictures that they include in the article.

Thought he ignored the French TH binding on McGrath's arm too. He was poor on the scrums all game.