Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

former total

thomond2006 wrote: »

This screams Lancaster.

Would that be "mind-blowing"?

I think the Dublin reference is simply because the announcement is happening here, not that the person himself is connected to Dublin.

Tigerandahalf

Given that the tour is in the NZ winter with probable wind and wet weather you can't see the Lions throwing the ball around a lot. Given that Gatland is the coach it will probably be a big direct team with little flair.

The NZ pack is light and their scrum could be vulnerable so I'd imagine Gatland wil go with a big pack and a big backline.

With doubts over Sexton's ability to last games I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't start but the options are limited - Farrell or Biggar I guess.

I could see a team along these lines

McGrath Best Furlong
Toner AW Jones
Stander Warburton Vunipola
Murray Sexton
Roberts Henshaw
L Williams Halfpenny Zebo?

We are weak enough on the wings. Not sure if any of the English boys are good all rounders while Hogg is probably the only option in Scotland - great attacking ability but can make silly mistakes. George North with his concussion issues is a big risk. Tommy Bowe if he comes back to form with Ire could sneak the 14 jersey.

I think Stander is a possibility at 6 but wouldn't be surprised if Robshaw is picked as he gives the work rate and tackling to give balance to the back row.

Halfpenny to kick the goals and AW Jones to captain.

Itoje is also a big possibility, maybe ahead of Toner.

Very strong in some areas but weak enough in others.

thomond2006

former total wrote: »

Would that be "mind-blowing"?

I think the Dublin reference is simply because the announcement is happening here, not that the person himself is connected to Dublin.

I don't know about mind-blowing but certainty a surprise.

Is there an announcement today?

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The only rumour I've seen that appears remotely viable has been Ben Ryan. Certainly an interesting chap. (also, Ben Ryan is an employee of HSBC I think?)

that would be completely off the wall.

certainly interesting but if your going to try a sevens player / coach as your attacking coach... is a lions tour against NZ the best place to try it?

Buer

Is Lancaster not a director/administrator first and a forward's coach second?

Scythica

Obviously Gatland is not coaching in the 6nations, but what happens for the assistants?

England without Borthwick for example would be particularly nicer

Buer

Scythica wrote: »

Obviously Gatland is not coaching in the 6nations, but what happens for the assistants?

England without Borthwick for example would be particularly nicer

They continue as they were with whatever teams they work for.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

Is Lancaster not a director/administrator first and a forward's coach second?

I don't think it's particularly clear exactly what he's up to but his only official role is as "Senior Coach".

clsmooth

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Given that the tour is in the NZ winter with probable wind and wet weather you can't see the Lions throwing the ball around a lot. Given that Gatland is the coach it will probably be a big direct team with little flair.

The NZ pack is light and their scrum could be vulnerable so I'd imagine Gatland wil go with a big pack and a big backline.

With doubts over Sexton's ability to last games I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't start but the options are limited - Farrell or Biggar I guess.

I could see a team along these lines

McGrath Best Furlong
Toner AW Jones
Stander Warburton Vunipola
Murray Sexton
Roberts Henshaw
L Williams Halfpenny Zebo?

We are weak enough on the wings. Not sure if any of the English boys are good all rounders while Hogg is probably the only option in Scotland - great attacking ability but can make silly mistakes. George North with his concussion issues is a big risk. Tommy Bowe if he comes back to form with Ire could sneak the 14 jersey.

I think Stander is a possibility at 6 but wouldn't be surprised if Robshaw is picked as he gives the work rate and tackling to give balance to the back row.

Halfpenny to kick the goals and AW Jones to captain.

Itoje is also a big possibility, maybe ahead of Toner.

Very strong in some areas but weak enough in others.

One English starter from a team which has just gone the whole year unbeaten including 3 wins away in Australia?? There would be carnage in the media

awec

Buer wrote: »

It's almost all but confirmed as Rob Howley. They discussed the coaching team last night on Off The Ball with Gavin Cummiskey stating it's almost an open secret that the team will be:

Gatland
Borthwick
Howley
Farrell

I'd love to be wrong about Howley. Neil Doak deserves his shot.

Do the assistant coaches have to leave their current jobs too?

Buer

awec wrote: »

Do the assistant coaches have to leave their current jobs too?

They are given tenure in recognition of their achievement, actually.

Tigerandahalf

clsmooth wrote: »

One English starter from a team which has just gone the whole year unbeaten including 3 wins away in Australia?? There would be carnage in the media

I know. I only noticed that when I looked back again.

However if you put in Itoje, Robshaw and possibly Farrell at 10 it brings it upto 4. Maybe Watson or Jack Nowell on the wing. Then you have 5.

Some are putting forward Hartley as hooker and captain but with his poor disciplinary record I wouldn't be all for him.
I would still have concerns about Rory's throwing though. Hooker is one of the weak positions in the squad.

Some would pick Hartley and the English pair of Kruis and Itoje together. If that happens you have at least 7 English men.

I definitely think the 2 Irish props have moved into starting positions. Some are putting Cole and WP Nel before Furlong but if Furlong holds form he is way ahead of them two around the park.

If Best gets selected Toner has a great chance and vice versa.

It is possible that Best Toner and AW Jones could be played together in some of the warm up games and a good partnership could be formed.

Very early days though. Get the feeling the St. Patrick's weekend tie between Eng and Ire will be some tussle!

sydthebeat

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Some are putting forward Hartley as hooker and captain but with his poor disciplinary record I wouldn't be all for him.

i think the england captaincy has been the making of him.

Bazzo

I know myself and most people here would rate McGrath and possibly Furlong as the 2 best candidates to be starting props for the Lions but it seems to me the sentiment outside of Ireland isn't quite the same. McGrath doesn't seem to be rated nearly as highly outside Ireland as he is within.

sydthebeat

really?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/jun/27/how-british-irish-lions-may-line-up-new-2017-zealand-tour-england-scotland-wales-ireland
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/28/ireland-lions-all-blacks-england-scotland-warren-gatland
http://rugbylad.com/sunday-times-pundits-pick-their-british-irish-lions-xvs/

furlong has become a lot of peoples starter, and J mc G is vying against Mako Vuni at LH
I think both are very well considered beyond out little green island.

Tigerandahalf

Bazzo wrote: »

I know myself and most people here would rate McGrath and possibly Furlong as the 2 best candidates to be starting props for the Lions but it seems to me the sentiment outside of Ireland isn't quite the same. McGrath doesn't seem to be rated nearly as highly outside Ireland as he is within.

Vunipola is a weak scrummager and Marler hasn't played enough. McGrath is well ahead of them. Only worry is that he has played a lot of rugby over the last 12 months and could be weary come the end of the 6 nations.

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

really?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/jun/27/how-british-irish-lions-may-line-up-new-2017-zealand-tour-england-scotland-wales-ireland
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/28/ireland-lions-all-blacks-england-scotland-warren-gatland
http://rugbylad.com/sunday-times-pundits-pick-their-british-irish-lions-xvs/

furlong has become a lot of peoples starter, and J mc G is vying against Mako Vuni at LH
I think both are very well considered beyond out little green island.

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Vunipola is a weak scrummager and Marler hasn't played enough. McGrath is well ahead of them. Only worry is that he has played a lot of rugby over the last 12 months and could be weary come the end of the 6 nations.

Calm down lads, I wasn't having a go at them and I clearly said they would be my starters. Having spoken to quite a few English, Scottish and Welsh people about this recently Mako Vunipola seems to be their favourite for starting loosehead(as he is in all of those links you provided syd) and a lot of people I've spoken to seem to rate Gethin Jenkins ahead of McGrath(mad if you ask me). And up until the AIs Dan Cole and Nel were the 2 names that everybody seemed to be mentioning with regard to TH though Furlong has certainly done a bit of eye catching in the last month or so.

Like I said, most of us would have McGrath as head and shoulders the best LH of the possibilities but that's not necessarily the view outside Ireland.

Podge_irl

sydthebeat wrote: »

really?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/jun/27/how-british-irish-lions-may-line-up-new-2017-zealand-tour-england-scotland-wales-ireland
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/28/ireland-lions-all-blacks-england-scotland-warren-gatland
http://rugbylad.com/sunday-times-pundits-pick-their-british-irish-lions-xvs/

furlong has become a lot of peoples starter, and J mc G is vying against Mako Vuni at LH
I think both are very well considered beyond out little green island.

Props
Dan Cole and Mako Vunipola

Two of the props will definitely be England’s Cole and Mako Vunipola. Ireland’s Jack McGrath is no longer in Cian Healy’s shadow and Scotland’s WP Nel is an extremely solid front-row citizen. The scrum, though, is an area where the Lions will be looking to target New Zealand and characters such as Joe Marler and Rob Evans will be strong candidates for a long, demanding tour. Samson Lee, Ellis Genge and Kieran Brookes will be other names in the frame.

Oddly Kitson doesn't even mention Furlong. In fact his selection listed is wildly out of kilter with his other article on Ireland's standout autumn performance.

sydthebeat

Bazzo wrote: »

Calm down lads, I wasn't having a go at them and I clearly said they would be my starters. Having spoken to quite a few English, Scottish and Welsh people about this recently Mako Vunipola seems to be their favourite for starting loosehead(as he is in all of those links you provided syd) and a lot of people I've spoken to seem to rate Gethin Jenkins ahead of McGrath(mad if you ask me). And up until the AIs Dan Cole and Nel were the 2 names that everybody seemed to be mentioning with regard to TH though Furlong has certainly done a bit of eye catching in the last month or so.

Like I said, most of us would have McGrath as head and shoulders the best LH of the possibilities but that's not necessarily the view outside Ireland.

i wouldnt have JMCG that far ahead of MV to be honest.... and thats with my irish bias. Mako has been superb this year and is about as dynamic in movement and hands as you can get for a loose head prop. Given a choice id have JMG starting to shore up the scrum as i think hes a better scrummager but id certainly give mako 35 mins from the bench. i wouldnt have too much of an issue if it was th other way round either though.

in regards to furlong, i think he has actually stood out head and shoulders away from his compatriots in the last 5 months... and for me is currently a starter ahead of DC and WPN

The 6N will be the defining factor though.

Tigerandahalf

Given how tough the schedule is Gatland will have to give all the players a good run. He will need a really good bench to have impact.

Come the 2nd and 3rd tests the players will be knackered and having good impact from the bench will be crucial.

I wouldn't mind having Itoje coming off the bench. He has serious power. Toner or AWJ might not have the same impact.

Funny how some of the journalists are picking Itoje at 6 but I think like Henderson he is made for the 2nd row.

Having the likes of Itoje, Mako Vunipola, Sean O'Brien or Stander coming off the bench would be serious impact plus the likes of Webb and possibly Hogg in the back replacements.

I was only looking at the schedule the other day. It really is brutal. No soft games.

thomond2006

From the Guardian link:
S Hogg (Scotland); L Williams (Wales), E Daly (England), R Henshaw (Ireland), G North (Wales); O Farrell (England), C Murray (Ireland); M Vunipola (England), D Hartley (England), T Furlong (Ireland), AW Jones (Wales), M Itoje (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), S O’Brien (Ireland), B Vunipola (England).

Replacements: R Best (Ireland), J McGrath (Ireland), W Nel (Scotland), I Henderson (Ireland), T Faletau (Wales), B Youngs (England), J Sexton (Ireland), J Nowell (England).

9 out of 23 would be a very good haul. Given the likelihood of injuries I imagine at least 30 players will be used between the three tests.

b.gud

thomond2006 wrote: »

From the Guardian link:
S Hogg (Scotland); L Williams (Wales), E Daly (England), R Henshaw (Ireland), G North (Wales); O Farrell (England), C Murray (Ireland); M Vunipola (England), D Hartley (England), T Furlong (Ireland), AW Jones (Wales), M Itoje (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), S O’Brien (Ireland), B Vunipola (England).

Replacements: R Best (Ireland), J McGrath (Ireland), W Nel (Scotland), I Henderson (Ireland), T Faletau (Wales), B Youngs (England), J Sexton (Ireland), J Nowell (England).

9 out of 23 would be a very good haul. Given the likelihood of injuries I imagine at least 30 players will be used between the three tests.

No Ian Nagle means that list is a joke

pickarooney

There are about nine English locks with better cousins to a starting berth than awj or toner. They'll likely have both wing spots too and JJ is odds on for the centre.

Buer

pickarooney wrote: »

There are about nine English locks with better cousins to a starting berth than awj or toner.

Eh?

Professor Moriarty

pickarooney wrote: »

There are about nine English locks with better cousins to a starting berth than awj or toner. They'll likely have both wing spots too and JJ is odds on for the centre.

In your own time...

former total

pickarooney wrote: »

There are about nine English locks with better cousins to a starting berth than awj or toner. They'll likely have both wing spots too and JJ is odds on for the centre.

I dunno, he's struggling to get game time at Saints, but you never know.

awec

I know we've played pretty well recently but I don't see it having made much of a difference to our list of likely participants.

McGrath, Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, O'Brien and Henderson are still our only probables IMO.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

I know we've played pretty well recently but I don't see it having made much of a difference to our list of likely participants.

McGrath, Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, O'Brien and Henderson are still our only probables IMO.

In the 23? Who are the tightheads ahead of Furlong in your opinion?

Professor Moriarty

awec wrote: »

I know we've played pretty well recently but I don't see it having made much of a difference to our list of likely participants.

McGrath, Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, O'Brien and Henderson are still our only probables IMO.

I think Furlong and Toner have done enough with Best a possible.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In the 23? Who are the tightheads ahead of Furlong in your opinion?

In the touring squad.

Yea I forgot about Furlong to be honest. Coles likely to be first choice. Last time I think he brought 3 of each prop plus one ambiprop type. I don't think that ambiprop option exists this time so it'll be interesting to see what he does.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think Furlong and Toner have done enough with Best a possible.

Best doesn't really have much of a chance IMO, he has been overlooked before. Hartley, George and Owens the likelies.

Toner might get in, but I think AWJ, Itoje, Gray, Kruis, Launchbury and Henderson are more likely options.

Professor Moriarty

awec wrote: »

In the touring squad.

Yea I forgot about Furlong to be honest. Coles likely to be first choice.



Best doesn't really have much of a chance IMO, he has been overlooked before. Hartley, George and Owens the likelies.

Toner might get in, but I think AWJ, Itoje, Gray, Kruis, Launchbury and Henderson are more likely options.

I'd have Best before Owens and I think he's played far more at a higher level than George, but Hartley is in poll position. Despite Henderson's versatility, I think Toner has a better chance. He's been very consistent the past two years and his work in the loose has improved. I'd be surprised if both aren't in the squad.

awec

My complete guess of what the squad may look like. I took the number of players he took in each position in 2013, but I am one player short (one prop).

Hooker
Hartley (ENG)
George (ENG)
Owens (WAL)

Loosehead
Vunipola (ENG)
McGrath (IRE)
Marler (ENG)

Tighthead
Coles (ENG)
Furlong (IRE)
Nel (SCO)

Lock
Itoje (ENG)
AWJ (WAL)
Kruis (ENG)
Henderson (IRE)
Launchbury (ENG)

Flanker
Warburton (WAL)
Tipuric (WAL)
O'Brien (IRE)
Haskell (ENG)
Robshaw (ENG)

No 8
Vunipola (ENG)
Faletau (WAL)

Scrumhalf
Murray (IRE)
Youngs (ENG)
Webb (WAL)

Outhalf
Biggar (WAL)
Sexton (IRE)

Centre
Joseph (ENG)
Henshaw (IRE)
Farrell (ENG)
Davies (WAL)

Wing
Nowell (ENG)
Seymour (SCO)
North (WAL)
Watson (ENG)

Fullback
Hogg (SCO)
Halfpenny (WAL)
Williams (WAL)

Tigerandahalf

I think Henderson could struggle to get in unless he gets serious game time in the 6 nations. Ulster's season has gone to pot so he doesn't have much of a window. He is also competing against similar type players at lock - Kruis, Launchbury and Courtney Lawes - big bulky TH locks.

Toner has a better chance. He is a proven man in the lineout and given how strong the All Blacks are in that area he is a good shout.

Re the prop that can play both sides Finlay Bealham could have a little chance.

A good few journalists have included Sean O'Brien but his injury record isn't great and he may not even get into the Irish side with V der Flier and POM breathing down his neck.

Ciaran-Irl

I'd be shocked if Best doesn't make the extended squad. You have to go all the way back to the era of Jim Staples and Michael Bradley to find a long term Ireland captain that didn't tour with the Lions. People are forgetting that there is a lot more in picking a Lions squad than just a selection of 'most likely to push for the test 23'. You need leaders and midweek captains and senior players that have been there, done that. A Lions tour coherence is dependent on players like him. Best will definitely travel, but he may well miss out on the test 23.

Tigerandahalf

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I'd be shocked if Best doesn't make the extended squad. You have to go all the way back to the era of Jim Staples and Michael Bradley to find a long term Ireland captain that didn't tour with the Lions. People are forgetting that there is a lot more in picking a Lions squad than just a selection of 'most likely to push for the test 23'. You need leaders and midweek captains and senior players that have been there, done that. A Lions tour coherence is dependent on players like him. Best will definitely travel, but he may well miss out on the test 23.

It is hard to know. You have to remember he was overlooked for the squad for the previous tour by the same coach. Has Gatland's view changed?

From what I remember he didn't even call up Rory when the first injury reserve hooker was needed. He only got called up later on.

The doubts about his throwing are still there but I think with Toner in the side it has been easier for him. He is superb around the field, doesn't get injured and has a good cool head about him. Gatland can have his views on players.

Hibbard came from nowhere to start in the last tour.

Tigerandahalf

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Hibbard came from nowhere to start in the last tour.

No, he came from Wales...

Podge_irl

Best is playing a lot better than he was 4 years ago and certainly seems better at line-out time (whether or not that is up to Dev).

Wouldn't expect him to be starting but he's an excellent squad option.

bilston

Best's form was poor in 2013, and POC himself was talking about this on Sky during the Australia and mentioned that while Rory had a poor tour he didn't get to play with some of the players he'd have liked.

In 2016/17 his form is far better and it wouldn't surprise me if he and Toner went as a pairing. If one plays, the other plays...

Right now I'd be staggered if Best didn't make the squad. But a lot can change in 6 months.

As for Furlong not being rated outside Ireland, I've seen him named in just about every post Autumn Lions XV. He has definitely got people talking outside the Emerald Isle and rightly so because he's brillant!!

There is going to be some battle for the 9 shirt.

Murray has it at the moment, but Youngs is playing great stuff and Webb is obviously a top player as well.

molloyjh

Yeah Bests form in the run up to selection went to pot. He was correctly excluded at the time. If he has a good 6Ns he'll surely be in the mix though.

FellasFellas

Only worry if Sexton is selected for example is; in the warmup games - he'll be playing against internationals left out of the AB's squad and very good club players in the franchise games. No doubt they will pick him out for specialist treatment out there in those warmups, one head bang and he's gone for potentially the tour. I know that's the case with every player, but he's just so injury prone lately. I do think it's looking incredibly likely to be a 9/10/12 English axis, with the other option playing Youngs/Farrell/Roberts or Henshaw for that direct route.

Bazzo

Just flicked it on so didn't catch the full announcement but looks like Andy Farrell is part of the Lions coaching setup.

EDIT: Steve Borthwick and Rob Howley are the other 2 coaches.

Buer

Howley, Borthwick and Farrell. No surprises and nothing exciting.

irishbucsfan

That's the exact expected Lions coaching team!

Nick Mullins, you and your filthy rumour mongering! There was nothing breath-taking about that!

Right, Howley it is then. 3-0 to New Zealand. I'll sleep through it, please wake me up when the Pro 12 resumes.

LuckyGent88

Wouldn't have much confidence in Howley as an attack coach.

thomond2006

I'd love to know what is mind-blowing about this coaching team...Mr. Mullins!

Edit: Damn you IBF...

irishbucsfan

Ah, Gatland says he's looking to add some others. Maybe the mind-blowing name will be amongst them!

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's the exact expected Lions coaching team!

Nick Mullins, you and your filthy rumour mongering! There was nothing breath-taking about that!

Right, Howley it is then. 3-0 to New Zealand. I'll sleep through it, please wake me up when the Pro 12 resumes.

I'm assuming Mullins was being sarcastic. Either that or was getting paid off to generate some interest in an event that nobody is at all interested in.

With Mullins.

Maybe Lancaster was in the running, but now feels he'll need pre season with Connacht to get up and running.... :eek:

molloyjh

Ah here lads, reading on twitter that Townsend was only offered the assistant attack coach role under Howley. Surely that can't be true!?

captbarnacles

Best is very highly rated in NZ from what I've heard and was the only Irish player to make squad of the tournament in one paper.

I think their comment was something like "A hooker with a flankers ball poaching ability. What's not to like?"