Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

irishbucsfan · 07-12-2016 2:40pm

Who would win in a fight between Steve Borthwick and Andy Farrell?

07-12-2016 2:42pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who would win in a fight between Steve Borthwick and Andy Farrell?

The Audience.

Kal El · 07-12-2016 11:57pm

After seeing some combined teams with England and NZ, I dont know why we bother bringing any other country. Most have England with most players :pac:.
Imagine a team with the England no.8 over Read :pac::pac:

irishbucsfan · 08-12-2016 12:01am

Kal El wrote: »

After seeing some combined teams with England and NZ, I dont know why we bother bringing any other country. Most have England with most players :pac:.
Imagine a team with the England no.8 over Read :pac::pac:

You mean Billy Vunipola who was nominated for world player of the year this year?

Kal El · 08-12-2016 12:34am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You mean Billy Vunipola who was nominated for world player of the year this year?

It wasnt him. I saw another player. Nathan Hughes. Couldnt think of his name

I loled. Regarding Billy, I personally wouldnt pick him over Read

Professor Moriarty · 08-12-2016 2:00am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who would win in a fight between Steve Borthwick and Andy Farrell?

Peter O'Mahony.

molloyjh · 08-12-2016 9:56am

So apparently Gatland wants 2 different sets of coaches due to the workload, specifically mentioning having 2 different attack coaches. Hence the invitation to Townsend tonwork under Howley. Not sure that's a great idea. You're in danger of having too many chiefs then.

thomond2006 · 08-12-2016 10:28am

molloyjh wrote: »

So apparently Gatland wants 2 different sets of coaches due to the workload, specifically mentioning having 2 different attack coaches. Hence the invitation to Townsend tonwork under Howley. Not sure that's a great idea. You're in danger of having too many chiefs then.

See 2005 and how that worked out.

Podge_irl · 08-12-2016 10:36am

molloyjh wrote: »

So apparently Gatland wants 2 different sets of coaches due to the workload, specifically mentioning having 2 different attack coaches. Hence the invitation to Townsend tonwork under Howley. Not sure that's a great idea. You're in danger of having too many chiefs then.

I do wonder if Townsend would have accepted the offer if it were for backs coach in his own right. Working under the architect of the Welsh attack these days probably doesn't seem that appealing.

penybont exile · 08-12-2016 10:53am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I do wonder if Townsend would have accepted the offer if it were for backs coach in his own right. Working under the architect of the Welsh attack these days probably doesn't seem that appealing.

Presumably this is the team that scored more tries than anyone else in this years Six Nations ...... including three at Twickenham (Eddie's team got one by the way) ....... They were also within a cm (very debatable decision) of a fourth and a victory in that game.

............ Ireland & England fans may be in for a shock come Feb/Mar ...... as Mark Twain famously muttered ..... 'Rumours of my death ... etc. etc.

thomond2006 · 08-12-2016 11:05am

penybont exile wrote: »

Presumably this is the team that scored more tries than anyone else in this years Six Nations ...... including three at Twickenham (Eddie's team got one by the way) ....... They were also within a cm (very debatable decision) of a fourth and a victory in that game.

............ Ireland & England fans may be in for a shock come Feb/Mar ...... as Mark Twain famously muttered ..... 'Rumours of my death ... etc. etc.

Still, what have you done for me lately?

molloyjh · 08-12-2016 11:05am

penybont exile wrote: »

Presumably this is the team that scored more tries than anyone else in this years Six Nations ...... including three at Twickenham (Eddie's team got one by the way) ....... They were also within a cm (very debatable decision) of a fourth and a victory in that game.

............ Ireland & England fans may be in for a shock come Feb/Mar ...... as Mark Twain famously muttered ..... 'Rumours of my death ... etc. etc.

Wales have fairly consistently done well against NH teams true, but your record against SH teams is pretty appalling. All of 8 tries in 4 games last month for example. And seeing as we're talking about a tour to the best SH nation I don't think it's unfair to call out the Welsh record in that regard.

Ireland scored 2 tries less than Wales in the 6 Nations this year despite being away to France (you guys scored 1 try at home to France to our 0 away). And that's in a year where we felt our attacking game didn't really click properly because our head coach was trying to do that and the defence coach role at the same time. So the fact that you guys were the highest scorers is true, but at the same time not all that telling given the circumstances IMO.

Buer · 08-12-2016 11:06am

penybont exile wrote: »

Presumably this is the team that scored more tries than anyone else in this years Six Nations ...... including three at Twickenham (Eddie's team got one by the way) ....... They were also within a cm (very debatable decision) of a fourth and a victory in that game.

............ Ireland & England fans may be in for a shock come Feb/Mar ...... as Mark Twain famously muttered ..... 'Rumours of my death ... etc. etc.

Stats, in isolation, are incredibly misleading. Wales scored two tries in the final 5 minutes in Twickenham when the game was over.

They then score 9 tries on the final day of the 6N against Italy when Italy simply gave up in Brunel's last game.

Alternatively, we could say Wales back play has been brutal over the past month and they only managed to score 11 tries in their RWC pool despite facing Uruguay and Fiji (8 of their tries came against Uruguay).

Howley isn't a terrible coach but he's far from an inspiring choice either. It really appears to be a case of him being the only viable option.

penybont exile · 08-12-2016 11:46am

Buer wrote: »

Stats, in isolation, are incredibly misleading. Wales scored two tries in the final 5 minutes in Twickenham when the game was over.

They then score 9 tries on the final day of the 6N against Italy when Italy simply gave up in Brunel's last game.

Alternatively, we could say Wales back play has been brutal over the past month and they only managed to score 11 tries in their RWC pool despite facing Uruguay and Fiji (8 of their tries came against Uruguay).

Howley isn't a terrible coach but he's far from an inspiring choice either. It really appears to be a case of him being the only viable option.

I 100% agree with you when it comes to stats which is why I rarely quote my Rothmans Year Book on this forum .........

I also agree that our back play has been less than inspiring of late ....... but I do not make the assumption that just because Howley is the Lions attack coach that we're in for a turgid game plan.

I suspect the attitude of most posters here when it comes to the Lions is ambivalent and when extended to the personnel involved is 'anyone as long as they are not associated with Wales'.

Townsend has done a decent job with Glasgow (aka Scotland) .... but he is largely untried at international level. [When he was involved with Scotland they weren't exactly ripping up trees]

JS or EJ were probably Gatland's preference .... but they weren't available hence we have RH who I suspect will do a very good job. To beat NZ you have to deny them possession and keep them under the pump for 80 mins. I think the Lions have the potential to win this series as long as the injury attrition rate doesn't get out of control.

[As for the Twickenham game being over ..... that's a nonsense comment ...... it's not over until it's over]

Professor Moriarty · 08-12-2016 11:50am

penybont exile wrote: »

I 100% agree with you when it comes to stats which is why I rarely quote my Rothmans Year Book on this forum .........

I also agree that our back play has been less than inspiring of late ....... but I do not make the assumption that just because Howley is the Lions attack coach that we're in for a turgid game plan.

I suspect the attitude of most posters here when it comes to the Lions is ambivalent and when extended to the personnel involved is 'anyone as long as they are not associated with Wales'.

Townsend has done a decent job with Glasgow (aka Scotland) .... but he is largely untried at international level. [When he was involved with Scotland they weren't exactly ripping up trees]

JS or EJ were probably Gatland's preference .... but they weren't available hence we have RH who I suspect will do a very good job. To beat NZ you have to deny them possession and keep them under the pump for 80 mins. I think the Lions have the potential to win this series as long as the injury attrition rate doesn't get out of control.

[As for the Twickenham game being over ..... that's a nonsense comment ...... it's not over until it's over]

I don't think it's nonsense. Any team who believes they can't win will not be as motivated as a team who believes they can win. That's just a fact.

molloyjh · 08-12-2016 11:52am

penybont exile wrote: »

I suspect the attitude of most posters here when it comes to the Lions is ambivalent and when extended to the personnel involved is 'anyone as long as they are not associated with Wales'.

Well that's just not true.

penybont exile wrote: »

[As for the Twickenham game being over ..... that's a nonsense comment ...... it's not over until it's over]

It was 25-7 with 8 minutes to go. That game was over.

Bazzo · 08-12-2016 11:53am

penybont exile wrote: »

I suspect the attitude of most posters here when it comes to the Lions is ambivalent and when extended to the personnel involved is 'anyone as long as they are not associated with Wales'.

Based off what exactly...?

penybont exile · 08-12-2016 12:10pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't think it's nonsense. Any team who believes they can't win will not be as motivated as a team who believes they can win. That's just a fact.

Professor .... if you can explain to me how your comment is related to my comment I would maybe be able to answer you!

penybont exile · 08-12-2016 12:14pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Well that's just not true.

It was 25-7 with 8 minutes to go. That game was over.

Point 1 .... there's plenty of posts on here that lend credence to my opinion .... [I'm not going to dig them up]

Point 2 .... England were defending their try line ....... and it was a contentious call as to whether North was in touch or not on the last play .....

pickarooney · 08-12-2016 12:28pm

Are we ignoring Glasgow's woeful current form? Townsend has still got a lot to prove.

08-12-2016 12:31pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Are we ignoring Glasgow's woeful current form? Townsend has still got a lot to prove.

I was thinking the same but they've lost a lot of promising players over the last six months and their pack really isn't near the quality of their backs. Similar problem to Ulster to be honest.

Bazzo · 08-12-2016 12:34pm

penybont exile wrote: »

Point 1 .... there's plenty of posts on here that lend credence to my opinion .... [I'm not going to dig them up]

Well if you're not bothered to back it up with anything I'm happy enough to just rubbish it all together. People have a right to be dubious of a largely Welsh coaching staff at a time when Wales are hugely underperforming without being accused of having some sort of vendetta against the Welsh.

Tigerandahalf · 09-12-2016 10:12pm

Dylan Hartley showing again tonight that he shouldn't go with the Lions. A complete liability.

Warburton or AW Jones for captain looks likely.

Richard Hillman · 09-12-2016 11:06pm

Hartley isn't a Lion. He is a rogue Hyena that lives off the scraps of Lions

Larbre34 · 09-12-2016 11:08pm

Rory Best will captain the Lions. Warburton and/or Alun Wyn have no current form to carry that honour.

Hartley. Form is temporary, being a filthy violent thug is permanent.

irishbucsfan · 09-12-2016 11:11pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Rory Best will captain the Lions. Warburton and/or Alun Wyn have no current form to carry that honour.

Hartley. Form is temporary, being a filthy violent thug is permanent.

You ruled out Warburton and AWJ due to form and then said form is temporary in the next sentence!

I'd be surprised if it's not one of the Welsh lads and I'd actually think Warburton is most likely even though AWJ is probably my personal favourite for it. Warburton proved on the last tour that you cannot judge him on form, he's a total test player.

Tigerandahalf · 09-12-2016 11:16pm

I think Warburton is nailed on for the 7 jersery once he stays injury free and plays reasonably well in 6 nations.

He is a very strong contender for captain as lots of others are not guaranteed their place like Best or even AW Jones.

I don't see anyone else standing out. Very few players are guaranteed to start.

blackcard · 09-12-2016 11:16pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Rory Best will captain the Lions. Warburton and/or Alun Wyn have no current form to carry that honour.

Hartley. Form is temporary, being a filthy violent thug is permanent.

Rory won't captain the Lions as you can't take a chance that his throwing into the lineout will fall apart. Other than that, I think he would be the perfect captain as he commands respect in an unassuming way. Alun Wyn Jones for me.

Lake1989 · 09-12-2016 11:20pm

blackcard wrote: »

Rory won't captain the Lions as you can't take a chance that his throwing into the lineout will fall apart. Other than that, I think he would be the perfect captain as he commands respect in an unassuming way. Alun Wyn Jones for me.

On current form AWJ wouldnt be in the 23 for a test IMO

blackcard · 09-12-2016 11:22pm

Lake1989 wrote: »

On current form AWJ wouldnt be in the 23 for a test IMO

Fair enough. Nor would Warburton. Robshaw? Heaslip?

irishbucsfan · 09-12-2016 11:24pm

Lake1989 wrote: »

On current form AWJ wouldnt be in the 23 for a test IMO

Not a chance AWJ isn't in the test side if he's fit.

LuckyGent88 · 09-12-2016 11:28pm

Lake1989 wrote: »

On current form AWJ wouldnt be in the 23 for a test IMO

Pretty sure Gatland said during the week that he would start off with a tour captain. Think that will be AWJ myself with his experience and also captains in the winning test back in 2013.

Then if that captain doesn't perform in warm up games, he may pick a captain who is on form.

wp_rathead · 09-12-2016 11:30pm

Lake1989 wrote: »

On current form AWJ wouldnt be in the 23 for a test IMO

It'll be Itoje and AWJ starting in second row for me, either Kruis, One of the Grey's or Toner benching

Plus apparently AWJ had good game tonight against an albeit helpless Grenoble

Tigerandahalf · 09-12-2016 11:32pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not a chance AWJ isn't in the test side if he's fit.

AWJ has performed on previous tours. He will start. Just a case of who will join him. Itoje looks the most likely if you were playing tomorrow.

Difficult to see Toner making the bench then as he is not really an impact player. Henderson might make the bench but he needs to play a lot of rugby between here and then.

Still a possibility of an all Irish front row. With Itoje behind Furlong you would have some scrum.

Clegg · 09-12-2016 11:33pm

Furlong was awarded motm and was part of an utterly dominant Leinster scrum.

If he stays fit he's starting for the Lions. McGrath will be a part of the 23 as well. Still unsure if that'll be as the starter or sub though.

irishbucsfan · 09-12-2016 11:44pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

AWJ has performed on previous tours. He will start. Just a case of who will join him. Itoje looks the most likely if you were playing tomorrow.

Difficult to see Toner making the bench then as he is not really an impact player. Henderson might make the bench but he needs to play a lot of rugby between here and then.

Still a possibility of an all Irish front row. With Itoje behind Furlong you would have some scrum.

If I was to guess this far out it'd be AWJ and Itoje with Johnny Gray on the bench but Henderson is certainly good enough for it.

Podge_irl · 09-12-2016 11:50pm

I struggle to see Warburton at the same level as Martin Johnson in terms of being a two times Lions captain.

I just don't get it.

Clegg · 10-12-2016 12:14am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I struggle to see Warburton at the same level as Martin Johnson in terms of being a two times Lions captain.

I just don't get it.

It's Gatland.

SoB was benched despite being a better player. Took until the 3rd test for him to start and then people realised he should have been there from the very beginning if the series. Same story with Philips and Murray.

irishbucsfan · 10-12-2016 12:26am

Clegg wrote: »

It's Gatland.

SoB was benched despite being a better player. Took until the 3rd test for him to start and then people realised he should have been there from the very beginning if the series. Same story with Philips and Murray.

SOB certainly didn't prove himself the better player. Warburton put in one of the best performances on the tour in the 2nd test and if he hadn't been injured he would have started the 3rd. Lydiate was the most likely man to make way, not Warburton.

I anticipate we'll see the exact same thing again, both from Irish fans and from Warburton.

Clegg · 10-12-2016 12:39am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

SOB certainly didn't prove himself the better player. Warburton put in one of the best performances on the tour in the 2nd test and if he hadn't been injured he would have started the 3rd. Lydiate was the most likely man to make way, not Warburton.

I anticipate we'll see the exact same thing again, both from Irish fans and from Warburton.

Then SoB was even better in the third test. You're right about Lydiate but Warburton was nothing special on tour. The fact that they won the first test is what kept him in the side for the second.

irishbucsfan · 10-12-2016 1:16am

Clegg wrote: »

Then SoB was even better in the third test. You're right about Lydiate but Warburton was nothing special on tour. The fact that they won the first test is what kept him in the side for the second.

Well I think you'll find a lot of people will disagree with you on that one.

Warburton in the sort of form he showed in the 2nd test is one of the best forwards in Europe, unfortunately he just goes through long spells where he doesn't show it (even if he does seem to rediscover that form for test rugby).

.ak · 10-12-2016 5:20pm

Just for a giggle, as I always like book marking these guesses, but after the November internationals I'd like to see the following 23:

15. Hogg
14. North
13. Davies
12. Henshaw
11. Seymour
10. Sexton
09. Murray
08. Vunipola
07. O'Brien
06. Stander
05. Iotje
04. AWJ
03. Furlong
02. Best (C)
01. Jenkins

16. Hartley
17. McGrath
18. Cole
19. Dillane
20. Warburton
21. Youngs
22. Ford
23. Payne

FellasFellas · 10-12-2016 5:29pm

.ak wrote: »

Just for a giggle, as I always like book marking these guesses, but after the November internationals I'd like to see the following 23:

15. Hogg
14. North
13. Davies
12. Henshaw
11. Seymour
10. Sexton
09. Murray
08. Vunipola
07. O'Brien
06. Stander
05. Iotje
04. AWJ
03. Furlong
02. Best (C)
01. Jenkins

16. Hartley
17. McGrath
18. Cole
19. Henderson
20. Warburton
21. Youngs
22. Ford
23. Payne

Starting Itoje after not playing for England this autumn? He's just that damn good!

.ak · 10-12-2016 5:37pm

FellasFellas wrote: »

Starting Itoje after not playing for England this autumn? He's just that damn good!

Yeah, there's a few players who didn't feature and/or didn't have a great test window. But that's still how I see it going.

Actually changed Hendo to Dillane too..

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2016 6:28pm

.ak wrote: »

Just for a giggle, as I always like book marking these guesses, but after the November internationals I'd like to see the following 23:

15. Hogg
14. North
13. Davies
12. Henshaw
11. Seymour
10. Sexton
09. Murray
08. Vunipola
07. O'Brien
06. Stander
05. Iotje
04. AWJ
03. Furlong
02. Best (C)
01. Jenkins

16. Hartley
17. McGrath
18. Cole
19. Dillane
20. Warburton
21. Youngs
22. Ford
23. Payne

I'd start McGrath for Jenkins (he's 36) and Warburton for Stander because he's better overall.

.ak · 10-12-2016 7:18pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'd start McGrath for Jenkins (he's 36) and Warburton for Stander because he's better overall.

Yeah Warbs will have a good chance at starting, however I think Gatland will try a shock n awe sort of campaign.. That's how Ireland have pushed the ABs close to defeat and that's how they defeated them in Chicago; heavy carrying, and relentlessness - don't let them into the game. That backrow would be a handful to deal with going forward.

Professor Moriarty · 10-12-2016 8:17pm

.ak wrote: »

Yeah Warbs will have a good chance at starting, however I think Gatland will try a shock n awe sort of campaign.. That's how Ireland have pushed the ABs close to defeat and that's how they defeated them in Chicago; heavy carrying, and relentlessness - don't let them into the game. That backrow would be a handful to deal with going forward.

Mind you, the way Stander played today...

FellasFellas · 10-12-2016 11:55pm

.ak wrote: »

Yeah Warbs will have a good chance at starting, however I think Gatland will try a shock n awe sort of campaign.. That's how Ireland have pushed the ABs close to defeat and that's how they defeated them in Chicago; heavy carrying, and relentlessness - don't let them into the game. That backrow would be a handful to deal with going forward.

Warburton is actually remarkable. He's played less than 100 club games in 7 years and nearly as many Wales caps as he has Cardiff caps. The exact opposite of a form player almost. I rate him quite highly and think he's a great player but not sure if he'll be captain again; if Ireland win a Slam - Best has a serious chance especially with Hartleys discipline issues. AWJ has a shot too, but that second row is looking fiercely competitive. Realistically Hartley is out of the race after that last night so AWJ/Warburton/Best really are the outstanding candidates bar injury or suspension etc.

bilston · 11-12-2016 12:27am

There are four like captaincy candidates, Warburton, AWJ, Best and Hartley. Hartley has damaged his chances today significantly.

I've said for a while I'd go for AWJ, but the second row is so competitive. That said if Gatland goes for a Welsh player then presumably he has to go for Warburton...otherwise why is he his Welsh captain?!

If Hartley gets a ban of longer than 8 or 9 weeks then he may well lose the England captaincy. If someone else leads England to a GS then they become a contender. No idea who would replace Hartley though.

FellasFellas · 11-12-2016 12:29am

bilston wrote: »

There are four like captaincy candidates, Warburton, AWJ, Best and Hartley. Hartley has damaged his chances today significantly.

I've said for a while I'd go for AWJ, but the second row is so competitive.

If Hartley gets a ban of longer than 8 or 9 weeks then he may well lose the England captaincy. If someone else leads England to a GS then they become a contender. No idea who would replace Hartley though.

Robshaw will get it if Hartley gets too long a ban, unless he decides to give it to Itoje after he comes back from injury. With Vunipola out of the 6 Nations as well, more than likely will be Robshaw/Haskell or Wood/Harrison in the 6 Nations.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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