The late rise of fascism

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

Wasn't the opposition campaign based around not participating in the referendum at all, so that the result couldn't be used to trigger legislation?

That is correct, they knew they no chance of winning, so the campaign focused on devaluing the inevitable result. Its a strategy which could not apply in Ireland because we don't have that minimum turnout threshold as a requirement, but I think a similar strategy has been used before in the Netherlands.
It does not however mean that all those who failed to show up at polling booths were "opposition". It just means that the absent voters were used to pursue a particular agenda, ie to subvert the effectiveness of a democratic vote which the opposition knew was not going their way.

In this case however, I don't think there was any particular desire to pass specific legislation. It was more a case of Orban arming himself with a democratic mandate from his people prior to facing down the EU bureaucrats who would have imposed the mandatory migrant quotas on most EU countries. Ireland and UK were not included anyway due to special derogations obtained long ago.
I've been to Hungary a few times, its a great country. They have a long and proud tradition as defenders of Europe. For centuries they have been at the front line of repeated Islamic invasions.

Absolam

Well... It does rather seem the democratic vote did go the oppositions way. There certainly is no mandate to pass anti immigration legislation as a result, which seems to be what they wanted. And a distinct lack of a majority endorsing "the Orban government's rejection of the "mandatory migrant quotas" proposal being pushed by unelected EU and other bureaucrats", somewhat belie-ing that 98%....

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

Well... It does rather seem the democratic vote did go the oppositions way.

Amazing that you can say that, but as they say, "there's lies, damned lies, and then there's statistics".
Reminds me of a guy I used to play chess with, and when he was losing he would "accidentally" knock over the pieces by bumping against the table. Then he'd shrug the shoulders and declare a draw.
But here, you are actually declaring it to be a win.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

Amazing that you can say that, but as they say, "there's lies, damned lies, and then there's statistics".
Reminds me of a guy I used to play chess with, and when he was losing he would "accidentally" knock over the pieces by bumping against the table. Then he'd shrug the shoulders and declare a draw.
But here, you are actually declaring it to be a win.

You're right there... for instance saying "the Orban government's rejection of the "mandatory migrant quotas" proposal being pushed by unelected EU and other bureaucrats has been endorsed by 98% of the voting public in a referendum" is a great example of using statistics to create the impression than an overwhelming majority are in favour of something, even though that is actually a lie

BuilderPlumber

Fascism has never gone away but what is a fascist? Are people like Nidge Farage really fascists? I don't think they are. They may hold certain views but they are based on a reaction to other things. The current Hungarian government have a long, long way to go to be fascist. Last time I checked, they are not filling their prisons with ethnic minorities and gasing them or getting misguided youths to blow themselves up in some major city or order them to put planes into buildings. Is Trump a fascist? We may or may not find out.

Fascist though clearly exists. ISIS and al Qaeda are Muslim fascists, Brevik and McVeigh are/were atheist fascists. The current regime in the Philippines is potentially fascist, the current regime in Saudi Arabia is fascist. North Korea is imperial communist fascist (seems a contradiction but that's what it exactly is!).

Then there are a lot of people in the media who hold fascist views. A lot of them have I noticed toned it down a lot compared to a couple of years back perhaps due to a lack of popular support for extreme rightwing views. But fascist views cannot become fascism unless someone puts them into operation.

Populism of course may or may not equate to fascism. If there is a popular view that happens to be fascist (e.g. an ethnic people being blamed by another ethnic people for all their wrongs like in 1980s Kosovo). Milosevic rose to power as a populist fascist as did Hitler. But not all populism, in fact most, is not fascist. Most populism is about equality and distributing the wealth and tackling the biggies. That is the direct opposite to fascism.

Michael OBrien

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Brevik and McVeigh are/were atheist fascists.

I don't think they were atheists. One was christian (McVeigh) who simply doubted catholicism but reportedly believed in god both when he bombed people and when he later was about to be put to death (he asked for last rites).
Brevik said he believed in Odinism, a neo-paganistic religion.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

.. a great example of using statistics to create the impression than an overwhelming majority are in favour of something, even though that is actually a lie

A great majority of those who showed up to vote.
If people don't take part in the democratic process, they can't expect their views to be somehow "divined" afterwards, and then taken into account.

Trent Houseboat

Michael OBrien wrote:

I don't think they were atheists. One was christian (McVeigh) who simply doubted catholicism but reportedly believed in god both when he bombed people and when he later was about to be put to death (he asked for last rites).
Brevik said he believed in Odinism, a neo-paganistic religion.

Hardly makes a difference. It's like saying that Franco was a Catholic fascist. Their religion doesn't come in to play because what they did wasn't inspired by it in the same was as ISIS and al Qeada are by their religion.

Michael OBrien

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

Hardly makes a difference. It's like saying that Franco was a Catholic fascist. Their religion doesn't come in to play because what they did wasn't inspired by it in the same was as ISIS and al Qeada are by their religion.

It makes a difference if they are not atheist, and are labelled atheist while linked to fascism. If it does not make a difference then their religion or lack of, would not be listed. Also who can say what effect their religious views played on their actions. Belief in an afterlife for example can influence politics as it affects views on justice and nationalism. It does not have to be listed directly in a holy text to have a knock on effect.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

A great majority of those who showed up to vote.
If people don't take part in the democratic process, they can't expect their views to be somehow "divined" afterwards, and then taken into account.

Sure... just not a great majority. Or even a majority. Unlike the number of people who didn't vote.. they were a majority weren't they? So not voting in order to prevent legislation repugnant to their views being enacted seems to have worked out perfectly; the majority got what they wanted, and their views carried the day. Democracy in action

Thermonuclear

If this country turned facist, Id be surprised if most of the population would even notice.

The country has been obliterated the last 10 yrs. People like me screaming for revolution/boycott etc and considered daft for it.

All people want to know here these days is how many pics u have on facebook....fools

robindch

The BBC plots a few dates over the next year which may help determine what a lot of Europe looks like in years to come.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38134196

Italian constitutional referendum, 4, December 2016
Austrian presidential election, 4 December 2016
Netherlands parliamentary election, 15 March 2017
French presidential election: April/May 2017
German federal election, August - October 2017

In addition to the US and UK, these countries are hosting powerful populist movements which feed on fear and hatred of immigrants and a wayward, misplaced anger against the approximately centrist politicians and generally stable institutions who've kept the lid on things for many years now.

Outside of the anti-water charge brigadeers, these populist movements have achieved little traction here in Ireland. That said, it's hard not to wonder if politicians here will eventually wake up to the power they can acquire simply by telling the electorate that all their woes can be solved by blaming one random outgroup or another.

recedite

Two quotes stand out, in juxtaposition;

Democracy, as Barack Obama recently told Europeans, is "hard work"

and...

Nigel Farage of UKIP declared after the American election that the "democratic revolution" is only just beginning

silverharp

robindch wrote: »

The BBC plots a few dates over the next year which may help determine what a lot of Europe looks like in years to come.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38134196

Italian constitutional referendum, 4, December 2016
Austrian presidential election, 4 December 2016
Netherlands parliamentary election, 15 March 2017
French presidential election: April/May 2017
German federal election, August - October 2017

In addition to the US and UK, these countries are hosting powerful populist movements which feed on fear and hatred of immigrants and a wayward, misplaced anger against the approximately centrist politicians and generally stable institutions who've kept the lid on things for many years now.

there is your problem right there. Any good forest ranger would tell you to manage fires, the objective is not to make sure there are no fires because in the end something will happen that will be more violent or severe then it might have been.
Its clear that there are other issues like trade and outsourcing and that the only protected class these days are capital related and that they are being given a free hand to do a race to the bottom to reduce "cost" which is a cover word for people and families.

robindch wrote: »

Outside of the anti-water charge brigadeers, these populist movements have achieved little traction here in Ireland. That said, it's hard not to wonder if politicians here will eventually wake up to the power they can acquire simply by telling the electorate that all their woes can be solved by blaming one random out group or another.

I'd imagine the health of the EU will be important here, if the EU starts going tits up either it will start throwing its weight around which will create more anti EU feeling here or you might see Greek like pressures here if the Euro loses a lot of value and interest rates move up in a significant way and there might be a movement that looks to pull out of the Euro or go for a default.
I think its unlikely that there will be a campaign against a "random out group" to solve everyone's problems as you put it but I could see a switch where the government is expected to look after the interests of people who actually live in Ireland and not random out groups who don't live here yet :pac:

The Draugan

Controlled immigration is not a fascist idea , but it seems that only the extream right partyrs are the only ones looking to do something to stem the flow of immigrants into Europe . i have visited both Paris and Amsterdam in recent months and was shocked at the numbers of immigrants begging living on the streets etc. of both of these city's , Paris in particularly i found very uncomfortable. The heavy and visible presence of armed soldiers on the streets particularly around the tourist attractions was very unnerving. I'm sure some of these people were genuine refugees from Syria and Iraq but at the same time the sheer numbers is unbelievable. Between that and the very real threat of crime and terrorism brought with many of thees migrant's i can fully understand why even moderate Europeans are starting to look to the right .

the centrists have their heads completely buried in the sand and the left seem to be going as extreme in the opposite direction.

recedite

The Draugan wrote: »

..was shocked at the numbers of immigrants begging living on the streets etc. of both of these city's , Paris in particularly i found very uncomfortable. The heavy and visible presence of armed soldiers on the streets particularly around the tourist attractions was very unnerving. I'm sure some of these people were genuine refugees from Syria and Iraq but at the same time the sheer numbers is unbelievable..

Not surprising then that the result of the French election is already known to mirror that of the Trump victory in the USA. Both Fillon and Le Pen would be considered right wing populists in "left wing liberal" circles, with both committed to a clampdown on illegal migration and the restoration of a good relationship with Putin's Russia. The only question left to answer is which of them will win.

The Draugan

recedite wrote: »

Not surprising then that the result of the French election is already known to mirror that of the Trump victory in the USA. Both Fillon and Le Pen would be considered right wing populists in "left wing liberal" circles, with both committed to a clampdown on illegal migration and the restoration of a good relationship with Putin's Russia. The only question left to answer is which of them will win.

To be honest having been to Paris many times before i understand fully why this is where French politics is going , the current migrant crisis cannot just be allowed to continue and the streets of major city's have little tented encampments on roundabouts etc.. as i witnessed first hand in Paris over the summer.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

Not surprising then that the result of the French election is already known to mirror that of the Trump victory in the USA. Both Fillon and Le Pen would be considered right wing populists in "left wing liberal" circles, with both committed to a clampdown on illegal migration and the restoration of a good relationship with Putin's Russia. The only question left to answer is which of them will win.

in a way then the French establishment are playing it smarter? their Le Pen light will hang on to more middle of the road voters?

recedite

silverharp wrote: »

in a way then the French establishment are playing it smarter? their Le Pen light will hang on to more middle of the road voters?

Apparently its the first time they have held an open primary to select a republican candidate, ie not just party members could vote. I suppose that is a smart move in that its a kind of test run for the real election. "Le Pen light" has proven his ability to harvest the most votes, all round. The more centrist candidates, which party insiders preferred, took a nose dive.

FA Hayek

I have to laugh at the OP's sentiment here. I reeks of self pity, as Stephan Fry once said, 'Self Pity is the worse possible emotion you can have, and the most destructive.'

Social Democracy is dead. It offers nothing anymore other then safe spaces and trigger warnings, quotas and positive discrimination. It may have been hip on the internet maybe 5 years ago but the world has moved on.

It is entirely their own fault mind. You can call your opponents racists, fascist or bigots all you want but voters will eventually leave you. Look at the Irish Labour party. Its dead, grey and old. The youth is going with Sinn Fein and AAA/PBP.

The UK Labour party is going full on populist with Corbyn, at least they know where the momentum is even though they will be out of power for the next decade at least.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

Apparently its the first time they have held an open primary to select a republican candidate, ie not just party members could vote. I suppose that is a smart move in that its a kind of test run for the real election. "Le Pen light" has proven his ability to harvest the most votes, all round. The more centrist candidates, which party insiders preferred, took a nose dive.

more for my own benefit but interesting little primer , Le Pen hadnt figured on Fillon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDKGKj_GHew

BuilderPlumber

Thermonuclear wrote: »

If this country turned facist, Id be surprised if most of the population would even notice.

The country has been obliterated the last 10 yrs. People like me screaming for revolution/boycott etc and considered daft for it.

All people want to know here these days is how many pics u have on facebook....fools

There's a lot of sneaky fascism going on in this country. What people fail to often realise is that this country is now almost 100% controlled by the media. People often follow the media blindly without question. The same people who now look at the church, politicians and big business with disdain do not feel the same about the media. The media know this and have attempted to force what they want us to believe politically, what music they want us to listen to, what comedy we are to consider funny, what culture we are to adopt, what religious beliefs we are to have, etc.

A lot of fascist commentators write in the papers spouting biased agenda driven drivel (they grab their chance especially when someone like Fidel Castro dies and what starts off as anti-Fidel propaganda suddenly becomes anti-everything-this-commentator-wants-us-not-to-support propaganda). The TV is made up of mostly unintelligent drivel like modern country music, modern pop, talent shows, poor comedy, reality drivel, etc. ALL designed to dim our brains and make us into zombies. Yet the media think they are above criticism and while they have not much good to say about politicians, the church, big business, etc., they have nothing bad to say about themselves.

Absolam

Come the revolution, the media will be first against the wall then?

Cabaal

FA Hayek wrote: »

I have to laugh at the OP's sentiment here. I reeks of self pity, as Stephan Fry once said, 'Self Pity is the worse possible emotion you can have, and the most destructive.'

Social Democracy is dead. It offers nothing anymore other then safe spaces and trigger warnings, quotas and positive discrimination. It may have been hip on the internet maybe 5 years ago but the world has moved on.

It is entirely their own fault mind. You can call your opponents racists, fascist or bigots all you want but voters will eventually leave you. Look at the Irish Labour party. Its dead, grey and old. The youth is going with Sinn Fein and AAA/PBP. .

Few issues with that,
You've not given any numbers to support your claim that the youth are going for these parties. So right now it's just your personal viewpoint.

The youth also don't vote much, so you can have all the "support" you want but it's worth ****e if people don't vote.

PopePalpatine

Let me get this straight..."social democracy" is dead, yet the youth (I guess that means millennials) are going for the far-left like Sinn Fein and the Anti-Austerity People's Front/People's Front of Anti-Austerity etc. here and Corbyn in the UK. Isn't that what the youth have done for the guts of the last half-century, to dabble in a bit of far-left politics? On top of that, Bernie Sanders did pretty well among millennials in the Democratic primary, and he's pretty much a European-style social democrat.

robindch

silverharp wrote: »

there is your problem right there. Any good forest ranger would tell you to manage fires, the objective is not to make sure there are no fires because in the end something will happen that will be more violent or severe then it might have been.

To follow the slightly misplaced metaphor, I don't quite see how good statesmanship can encompass a politicians setting a fire which nobody can then control. When I'm talking about "keeping the lid" on things, I'm referring to the general ability of most politicians over the last few decades years to promote stability - events like the idiotic invasion of Iraq notwithstanding.

Where I think politicians over this time have fallen down most prominently is (a) dealing adequately with people, organizations and states which promote instability for their own political ends and (b) in failing to promote the benefits of stable government and stable economic policies.

silverharp wrote: »

I think its unlikely that there will be a campaign against a "random out group" to solve everyone's problems as you put it but I could see a switch where the government is expected to look after the interests of people who actually live in Ireland and not random out groups who don't live here yet :pac:

A switch which is one step away from the promotion of anti-immigrant policies and the open racism which follows inevitably from it.

What would help is the EU should become much more assertive in selling itself and its benefits, especially the idea that the economy is a non-zero sum game and that in the main, everybody gains when cash, goods, services and people can move freely and responsibly. Though I freely admit that this is a hard sell to people brought up in the fraudulent world of reality television and tailored news-feeds.

robindch

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

What people fail to often realise is that this country is now almost 100% controlled by the media.

You are certainly delivering your point of view with passion. I would suggest though that you distinguish between (a) reporting of events using verifiable facts and (b) reports which pretend to be reporting on events using verifiable facts and (c) people mouthing off.

They're not all the same and it doesn't do much good to anybody to pretend that they are.

silverharp

robindch wrote: »

To follow the slightly misplaced metaphor, I don't quite see how good statesmanship can encompass a politicians setting a fire which nobody can then control. When I'm talking about "keeping the lid" on things, I'm referring to the general ability of most politicians over the last few decades years to promote stability - events like the idiotic invasion of Iraq notwithstanding.

Where I think politicians over this time have fallen down most prominently is (a) dealing adequately with people, organizations and states which promote instability for their own political ends and (b) in failing to promote the benefits of stable government and stable economic policies.

to pursue my tortured analogy, Im saying the minding as you go phase is over. Politicians have been out of touch with the people for the last 15 or 20 years and have let pressures build up that weren't dealt with either because of benign neglect , asleep at the wheel government and all steam ahead on policies which didn't have the domestic population's interests at heart basically better a course correction now or something even worse in a decade.
In the end stability creates instability if its not affordable, for example Greece was stable up until the point it wasn't yet anyone with half a brain could tell you their economy was a polished turd
The Fed's actions after 2001 was a major example of creating "stability" but at the price of creating another asset bubble. Ideally the Fed should not have bailed out the tech bubble and let a natural recession run its course, 08 would have been avoided. they did it again in 08 and was combined with all the messing by the ECB you now have a currency the Euro which is very damaged and a whole continent that is riddled with debt because of 15 to 20 years of economic mismanagement. It would now be rational enough to put a % risk on a Euro breakup/collapse at the very time that the ECB has used up most of its arrows.

robindch wrote: »

A switch which is one step away from the promotion of anti-immigrant policies and the open racism which follows inevitably from it.

What would help is the EU should become much more assertive in selling itself and its benefits, especially the idea that the economy is a non-zero sum game and that in the main, everybody gains when cash, goods, services and people can move freely and responsibly. Though I freely admit that this is a hard sell to people brought up in the fraudulent world of reality television and tailored news-feeds.

The way you post is kind of amusing, you seem to think one of the main problems are people not being propagandised enough the simple reality is that people cant be fed a narrative anymore, if it grates with reality social media will be all over it in minutes.
Again the underlying economic landscape needs to be sound. There is a middle ground between global open borders for trade and migration and complete protectionism and ethno nationalism. However the EU has gone too far and the people are beginning to realise that their governments are determined to allow millions of third worlders into Europe a lot of whom will be an economic drain and wont adopt European values yet in the meantime will take up scarce housing medical and educational resources etc. and at a time where taxes are high, deficits have not corrected and European demographics aren't favourable for high spending governments.

Qs

FA Hayek wrote: »

It is entirely their own fault mind. You can call your opponents racists, fascist or bigots all you want but voters will eventually leave you. Look at the Irish Labour party. Its dead, grey and old. The youth is going with Sinn Fein and AAA/PBP.

And you think ex-Labour voters have gone to SF and AAA because of identity politics? Not because they sold out the working class by selling out their future to the bankers?

robindch

silverharp wrote: »

The way you post is kind of amusing, you seem to think one of the main problems are people not being propagandised enough

Not really - please read what I wrote again, especially my reply to BuilderPlumber - there is a difference between propaganda and facts which I'm not fully sure that you appreciate

For example, I don't really know what you mean when you say that "Politicians have been out of touch with the people for the last 15 or 20 years" and neither am I sure what you're referring to when you say that "governments are determined to allow millions of third worlders into Europe". These are both common tropes of right wing propaganda and they're both unrelated to any facts that I'm aware of.

Yourself isit

robindch wrote: »

The BBC plots a few dates over the next year which may help determine what a lot of Europe looks like in years to come.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38134196

Italian constitutional referendum, 4, December 2016
Austrian presidential election, 4 December 2016
Netherlands parliamentary election, 15 March 2017
French presidential election: April/May 2017
German federal election, August - October 2017

In addition to the US and UK, these countries are hosting powerful populist movements which feed on fear and hatred of immigrants and a wayward, misplaced anger against the approximately centrist politicians and generally stable institutions who've kept the lid on things for many years now.

Outside of the anti-water charge brigadeers, these populist movements have achieved little traction here in Ireland. That said, it's hard not to wonder if politicians here will eventually wake up to the power they can acquire simply by telling the electorate that all their woes can be solved by blaming one random outgroup or another.

Are you including left wingers (anti water charge protesters) in your populist or fascist charges?
Not paying a tax is hardly authoritarian.

Centrism is failing because it isn't working and isn't very centrist either. The EU has been a disaster since the Euro.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

..neither am I sure what you're referring to when you say that "governments are determined to allow millions of third worlders into Europe". These are both common tropes of right wing propaganda and they're both unrelated to any facts that I'm aware of.

I suppose this paper doesn't count, because its not an approved source.

But that's part of the problem isn't it. People operating within their own echo-chamber, ignoring what's going on outside it... until the elections come round that is.

Then suddenly its not called "democracy" any more, its called "populism" because nobody wants to admit they are anti-democratic.
If only the people had been fed more propaganda, they would have voted the "correct" way.

FA Hayek

Qs wrote: »

And you think ex-Labour voters have gone to SF and AAA because of identity politics? Not because they sold out the working class by selling out their future to the bankers?

That is my point really. Social Democracy has nothing really left in its arsenal other than identity politics. Economically, they have nothing well because we see that free trade and capitalism works, so they ditch their old Marxist and Trotskyite rhetoric as its all a little silly.

Instead we have now the far left, the likes of Sinn Fein and AAA/PBP selling populist dreams about how we can all have world class services that someone else can pay for. The young are fairly gullible when it comes to economic issues so, they will go on mass to these parties.

silverharp

robindch wrote: »

Not really - please read what I wrote again, especially my reply to BuilderPlumber - there is a difference between propaganda and facts which I'm not fully sure that you appreciate

For example, I don't really know what you mean when you say that "Politicians have been out of touch with the people for the last 15 or 20 years" and neither am I sure what you're referring to when you say that "governments are determined to allow millions of third worlders into Europe". These are both common tropes of right wing propaganda and they're both unrelated to any facts that I'm aware of.

its trusting the source of the facts that is the problem, its clear in the last few years that for example the official narrative is wanting in relation to the migrant crises so people start asking whats the agenda here? or why is the media framing in such a way that anyone critical of it is deemed a racist? So far only the Eastern countries governments are making statements or asking questions about whether Islam is compatible with Europe whereas in Germany this is verboten , if more people in Germany for example distrust the gov. position they will start voting for parties like AfD . Your opinion seems to be that these people are getting the wrong news whereas my guess is that people are wondering how they can hang on to their 21carat gold health and welfare system when their gov wants to let vast numbers of low to no skill mostly Muslims that might accelerate a collapse of said system and bringing all their cultural baggage to boot.

silverharp

FA Hayek wrote: »

That is my point really. Social Democracy has nothing really left in its arsenal other than identity politics. Economically, they have nothing well because we see that free trade and capitalism works, so they ditch their old Marxist and Trotskyite rhetoric as its all a little silly.

Instead we have now the far left, the likes of Sinn Fein and AAA/PBP selling populist dreams about how we can all have world class services that someone else can pay for. The young are fairly gullible when it comes to economic issues so, they will go on mass to these parties.

a few people are commenting that Gen Z (born after 95ish) in the US might turn out to be much more conservative than millennials or even their parents. If true and the cultural vibe flows this way it might keep these left utopians well out in the wilderness.

Stealthfins

History has a habit of repeating itself,if the youth of the west get peaved off with the influx of Islam, it could become trendy again to become a Christin especially a militant Christian...

I remember laughing at my parent's telling me jiving rock and roll and country music will make a comeback....
They were right,its all the go now.

Coming from a diehard raver/house music devout,im now jiving most weekends....

Will Christianity make a comeback....watch this space..

I'm an agnostic..

Bingo's next ðŸ˜

Qs

FA Hayek wrote: »

Economically, they have nothing well because we see that free trade and capitalism works, so they ditch their old Marxist and Trotskyite rhetoric as its all a little silly.

That contradicts what you said about people moving to far left parties from the centrists.

Its also due to the at least perceived failures of free market capitalism that people are moving further to the left and right and away from the centre. If they thought it was working for them they'd stick with the status quo.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

I suppose this paper doesn't count, because its not an approved source.

Approved source? You're aware that in western Europe at least, we don't live in a place where the news is centrally controlled?

recedite wrote: »

If only the people had been fed more propaganda, they would have voted the "correct" way.

You're quoting from the venomous Daily Express while complaining about propaganda from media outlets which publish verifiable facts? :rolleyes:

recedite

Well there's your problem right there. You have a simplistic but reasonably accurate equation;

mature educated electorate + accurate info = the correct democratic result

But you have decided "centre left liberal politically correct govt." is that constant on the RHS of the equation. This error leads you to concude that either (a) the "mature educated electorate" has been replaced by imbeciles (unlikely) or
(b) They have been fed the wrong information (the only thing remaining as a variable, and therefore the only possible explanation for the "incorrect" democratic result)

robindch

recedite wrote: »

mature educated electorate + accurate info = the correct democratic result

But you have decided "centre left liberal politically correct govt." is that constant on the RHS of the equation.

Not really and I'm not quite sure why you're including "center-left" or the especially silly phrase "politically correct" - do you really feel the need to include that? You're not preaching to a congregation of Alive readers

Anyhow, I would rephrase your equation with the following:

reasonable electorate + reasonable election process + reasonable politicians + reasonable expectations -> stable government with clear objectives

What the brexiteers and DT have shown is that many people seem equally happy with

inflamed electorate + dubious election process + angry, deceitful politicians + outlandish expectations -> unstable government with hidden objectives

The latter is a recipe for increasing societal disorder.

BuilderPlumber

Stealthfins wrote: »

History has a habit of repeating itself,if the youth of the west get peaved off with the influx of Islam, it could become trendy again to become a Christin especially a militant Christian...

I remember laughing at my parent's telling me jiving rock and roll and country music will make a comeback....
They were right,its all the go now.

Coming from a diehard raver/house music devout,im now jiving most weekends....

Will Christianity make a comeback....watch this space..

I'm an agnostic..

Bingo's next ðŸ˜

Militant Islam is a relatively new concept and it has taken all types of forms from Islamic socialism to Islamic democracy to Islamic fascism. The latter is by far the one we hear most of.

We hear a lot about politicised and militant Islam because it is being written about all the time. Militant Buddhism and Hinduism exist too and militant Christianity is prevalent in parts of Africa. I believe it defines a lot of extremist American views too. Could some form of it come about in Europe? Who knows? I could picture some sort of an anti Islam European Christian/Atheist alliance standing up for 'European values'.

I wish rock 'n' roll and country music would make a comeback. It is brilliant music. But I don't see any Elvis or Roy Orbison or Moon Mullican or Hank Williams style singers being promoted in Ireland, it is all ex boyband singers the media are pushing.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

inflamed electorate + dubious election process + angry, deceitful politicians + outlandish expectations -> unstable government with hidden objectives

To clarify the deceit here, I'm referring specifically to organized campaigns of disinformation such as those created, funded and implemented by the NRA concerning the effects of weapons, the tobacco industry on the effects of smoking, the oil, coal and chemical industries about the effects of climate change, green advocates concerning the effects of GMO's and so on.

The hidden objectives refer to the ceding of significant areas of government regulatory and legal control to industry special interests - an area in which DT's call to "drain the swamp" appear to be as true as any of the other innumerable lies he's uttered - the kind of regulatory capture which is the ongoing wet dream of the Republicans.

FA Hayek

Qs wrote: »

That contradicts what you said about people moving to far left parties from the centrists.

Its also due to the at least perceived failures of free market capitalism that people are moving further to the left and right and away from the centre. If they thought it was working for them they'd stick with the status quo.

The Irish Labour party are full of old school Trotskyists, however they realise now, today, years after their youth that the best way to increase peoples standard of living is not through communism/socialism/marxism it is through free trade, capitalism and neo-liberal economic policies. Ireland is a great example of a success story who follows this model. Guys like Pat Rabbite grew up in the old Ireland which was poor, so they know the Ireland of today is much richer and wealthier now. It is self evident.

Economically speaking they are in the same boat as FG/FF. They are firmly part of the establishment and the only thing that would differentiate them would be advocation of identity politics, things like gender quotas, traveller rights, advocating for more refugees. These things may be popular in middle class circles in the more leafy suburbs in Dublin but in working class areas, they get zero traction. Hence, why they are now a dead party.

So, we get a more populist bullish extreme left in the form of Sinn Fein and AAA/PBP. They firmly want to over throw the establishment order. They promise the sun, moon and stars to their working class electorate who are on the lower level of the educational spectrum, they get votes knowing at least right now they will never be in power to implement any actual change they promised. They literally ran away from government when the opportunity afforded itself.

They were delighted that the UK voted for Brexit, AAA/PBP were publicly advocating a no vote as in their eyes the EU is evil monster who advocates a capitalist neo-liberal agenda, while the true god for them is a socialist society where everyone is equal (more like equally poor). The young will gravitate towards this form of left wing politics, because they do now know its dangers or its lies, that socialism will actually improve peoples standards of living as a whole. It won't, but emotion trumps logic here.

If you want to see this argument play out, look no further then the Labour party in the UK, where there is or was a civil war between the socialist ideologues in the Corbyn camp and his online followers and the Blairite camp who won three general elections. Those on the extreme left spectrum hate Blair and their followers more then the Tories. He is a Traitor, someone who sold out the Labour party and just made them a pale imitation of the Tories even though he won 3 general elections. These zealots would rather the Labour party remain pure of heart and be out of power for a generation rather then compromise on their socialist principles.

So, the new order is that one of the establishment vs populism where the populist right and left will reject the old and embrace dogmatic stances. Ireland does not have a right to speak of but it certainly has a populist left and they more they gain in popularity the bigger the push back will become to form a right to counter their bull****.

robindch

FA Hayek wrote: »

The Irish Labour party are full of old school Trotskyists, however they realise now, today, years after their youth that the best way to increase peoples standard of living is not through communism/socialism/marxism it is through free trade, capitalism and neo-liberal economic policies. Ireland is a great example of a success story who follows this model. Guys like Pat Rabbite grew up in the old Ireland which was poor, so they know the Ireland of today is much richer and wealthier now. It is self evident. [...] So, the new order is that one of the establishment vs populism where the populist right and left will reject the old and embrace dogmatic stances. Ireland does not have a right to speak of but it certainly has a populist left and they more they gain in popularity the bigger the push back will become to form a right to counter their bull****.

Do you ever feel that the world is a little more complicated than just "right" and "left"?

Absolam

I like the idea of old school Trotskyists.. or Trotskyites if I recall correctly.

Makes me think of old men with big moustaches and worn through shoes wearing working mens waistcoats and slurping tea from saucers while calling each other comrade.

FA Hayek

robindch wrote: »

Do you ever feel that the world is a little more complicated than just "right" and "left"?

Well of course, but seeing that you are the OP here, I suggest you take your own question on board as well.

robindch

FA Hayek wrote: »

Well of course [...]

If that's the case, then why does most of your output consist of little more than fist-waving against the "left"? It really is quite tedious.

FA Hayek

robindch wrote: »

If that's the case, then why does most of your output consist of little more than fist-waving against the "left"? It really is quite tedious.

Why do most of the threads you start consist of little more than fist-waving against the "right" (including this one). It really is quite tedious.


See what I did there, do you want to pass judgement or do you want to debate?

robindch

FA Hayek wrote: »

Why do most of the threads you start consist of little more than fist-waving against the "right" (including this one). It really is quite tedious.

Have you had time to read the OP in this thread?

It's a link to a video which talks about the rise of "populists, demagogues and political fantasists" and doesn't include the word "right" except as part of "human rights".

I hope this clarifies the OP for you.

silverharp

robindch wrote: »

The BBC plots a few dates over the next year which may help determine what a lot of Europe looks like in years to come.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38134196

Italian constitutional referendum, 4, December 2016

The Austrian one might be a sideshow to this one longer term, this is being seen as a confidence vote for the current gov. if it fails it might bring down their government. The financial effect could be interesting, Italy is a financial basket case and any turn down in their bond market could cause a cascade into Deutsche Bank which has a lot of exposure to Italian Debt.
Not inconceivable that Italy could be kicked out or kick themselves of the Euro.