Slope ratings being introduced in Ireland ?

The Rape of Lucretia

Is it true that Irish courses are being assessed for Slope ratings ? Anyone got authoritative info on this? I had not heard about it.
Whats the goal ?

Seve OB

Source?

Montgolfier

This thread is much more interesting.......

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

Source?

Source for a load of questions?

I don't think this is the kind of story that will make the Six One News. It was mentioned by a poster in another thread. Maybe they can elaborate.

clog

I don't think that the GUI are going down this route, it would be quite a lot of work. Being a quite subjective measure this also could be open to disaggrement between course raters/clubs. In a way as well the SSS/CSS takes care of this problem for clubs anyway.

Interestingly the ILGU has been issuing slope ratings for the ladies tees for the last few years. Not sure if they have completed all affiliated clubs but we definately got one from them about 2-3 years ago and its up on display on the ladies board. (123/113).

thegolfer

Could be coming from the increase in American greenfees who use the slope system in the States. Making it that bit easier for them to rate a course in terms of difficulty.

mike12

It has to be simple enough, par 71 sss 74, you get 3 extra shots on top of your handicap.

Letree

As i mentioned in the closed thread yesterday the process has already begun. They are currently measuring courses for its introduction in a few years time.

BigChap1759

Letree wrote: »

As i mentioned in the closed thread yesterday the process has already begun. They are currently measuring courses for its introduction in a few years time.

Where are you getting your information from out of interest? Seems odd that they would move away from the congu system when SSS/CSS would seem to cover all eventualities??

Letree

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Where are you getting your information from out of interest? Seems odd that they would move away from the congu system when SSS/CSS would seem to cover all eventualities??

They were at the club my brother plays in last week measuring up. They plan on giving each course a slope rating so when you go to a different club to play your handicap will be adjusted accordingly.

BigChap1759

"They" being the GUI??

clog

Every course has the option to ask the GUI for a re-rating of their standard scratch at any time if they believe it is not representitave. In practice this is usually only invoked when large changes are made to the course. In addition clubs have to periodically send in a certified course (distance) measurement, we were asked to send a new one in earlier in the year.

This has absolutely nothing to do with a slope rating. As the GUI has committed to the Congu regulations for the period 2016-2019 I cannot see why it would be brought in now.

I would also think that a large scale change of this nature would have to at least go to the GUI AGM before approval as it certainly not have widespread approval from the clubs, who are after all its stakeholders.

Senna

Typical American golfer plays mostly non competitive golf across a large number of courses, so the slope rating is a much better system for them.

Would be nice for all courses to have a slope for visitors but SSS/CSS seems to suit the Irish/UK average golfer where they would be a member of a home course and play regularly in comps.

If handicap went on slope, I could be a 15hcp at my home courses SSS - 2, but a 19hcp at a course with a SSS+2.
Would make a huge difference in a interclub matchplay game.

Kingswood Rover

Down in Dingle at the mo and i called into Ceann Sibheal gc today and they have the slope of the course displayed very prominently. Each set of tee's had a different slope, all for the septics i would imagine.

Rikand

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Down in Dingle at the mo and i called into Ceann Sibheal gc today and they have the slope of the course displayed very prominently. Each set of tee's had a different slope, all for the septics i would imagine.

Septics? Didn't know it was full of those awful tanks down there

InTheRough

I think this is going to happen after the 2016-18 term of CONGU. I’ve heard the GUI have requested course measurement certs from all the clubs here.

slave1

Slope rating already in place for a lot of clubs, especially the bigger ones, US visitors can use their cards on an Irish course to adjust their handicap even for a casual round once it has a slope rating.
Most courses have it on their cards but some just have it on the clubhouse noticeboard

Hoof Hearted2

Seems to be a lot of misconceptions and misinformation as to what the slope system actually is, it's not used exclusively by the Americans, it's also currently used on the continent by the EGU and pretty much everywhere else in the world bar the CONGU nations, it's a fairer system and is a truer reflection of current golfing ability, obviously it would be tweaked for use by CONGU, i.e. no casual rounds and no mulligans etc.
The current unified handicapping system UHS is for 2 years 2016-2018, this is unusual for CONGU, as previous editions have been for 3 year periods, reading between the lines this points towards a significant impeding change.
Also as was mentioned by another poster, it would require approval by branch ADM's and then the national GUI AGM, as this process takes time and there has been no motion to date, it'll unlikely but not impossible that it will be on the agenda this coming Autumn, but people in the know and with their finger on the pulse, expect it will only be a matter of time before the slope system replaces the current system.

BigChap1759

What makes it a fairer system?

Senecio

We went through the change from the CONGU system to the US system in Australia from 2009 to 2012. It was phased in with slope being the last to be introduced. Here's my thought from someone who's been through the change.

1. Your handicap is much more in tune with you current performance. It can come down and go out very rapidly.

2. I like the idea of slope in place of a standard scratch. The concept of slope is that one course can be more or less difficult depending on a golfers ability. When they measure a course they take into account how a scratch marker would play each and hole and how an 18 HCP would play the same hole. If all the trouble off the tee is at the 200-230 yd mark then that hole will be more difficult for the 18HCP than the scratch marker as they don't have the power to carry the trouble.

3. Its a fun handicap system to play. Your HCP is based on your best 8 scores from your last 20 rounds. So each week you are playing against the score that is being dropped from your last 20. If that 20th round is not one of your best then you are playing with immunity. You can't go out. However if your 20th round is one of your best 8 then you are playing against that round. It is possible to beat your handicap and still go out if the 20th round that is dropping out is one of your best. It also adds more interest if you are scrambling. Instead of trying to make buffer your target is to beat your 8th best score. As long as you beat that 8th best score you can still come down even if that score is 30-31pts.

Hoof Hearted2

BigChap1759 wrote: »

What makes it a fairer system?

It reflects your current playing ability more accurately than the current UHS system, that IMO makes it fairer.

Letree

What the GUI guys explained at my brothers course is that the course will be given a slope rating so people coming to play it from other courses will adjust their own handicap to suit the course. There will be a formula for calculating your handicap for any given course.

It will have a big effect on inter club comps. You may be playing of 10 at your own course and when you go to another more difficult course to play your match you may be up to a 12.

BTW they didn't mention anything about moving away from our current handicap system to the American slope system.

alxmorgan

Senecio wrote: »

We went through the change from the CONGU system to the US system in Australia from 2009 to 2012. It was phased in with slope being the last to be introduced. Here's my thought from someone who's been through the change.

1. Your handicap is much more in tune with you current performance. It can come down and go out very rapidly.

2. I like the idea of slope in place of a standard scratch. The concept of slope is that one course can be more or less difficult depending on a golfers ability. When they measure a course they take into account how a scratch marker would play each and hole and how an 18 HCP would play the same hole. If all the trouble off the tee is at the 200-230 yd mark then that hole will be more difficult for the 18HCP than the scratch marker as they don't have the power to carry the trouble.

3. Its a fun handicap system to play. Your HCP is based on your best 8 scores from your last 20 rounds. So each week you are playing against the score that is being dropped from your last 20. If that 20th round is not one of your best then you are playing with immunity. You can't go out. However if your 20th round is one of your best 8 then you are playing against that round. It is possible to beat your handicap and still go out if the 20th round that is dropping out is one of your best. It also adds more interest if you are scrambling. Instead of trying to make buffer your target is to beat your 8th best score. As long as you beat that 8th best score you can still come down even if that score is 30-31pts.

Seems to go against what the GUI have been doing recently in terms of 1 shot above lowest in a year.

Some would no doubt have reservations in how the lesser spotted handicap manipulators would handle the new scenario.

Seve OB

also sounds to me like it could result in open season for the cheats.
if it's only your best 10 cards of your last 20 to count, and you can include casual rounds... well then it couldn't be that hard to throw in 20 sh1tty scores ahead of the captains prize or whatever you are having yourself!

Russman

I wonder would it spell the end for stableford & V-par competitions, given that a no score or loss on a hole could be 8, 9 or 10 or any number really, rather than necessarily, say, a double bogey.
Or maybe it would make no difference.

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

also sounds to me like it could result in open season for the cheats.
if it's only your best 10 cards of your last 20 to count, and you can include casual rounds... well then it couldn't be that hard to throw in 20 sh1tty scores ahead of the captains prize or whatever you are having yourself!

It would be an out and out disaster if implementated imo. Golf in Ireland & UK is mostly competition based and the Congu system works extremely well in that environment.

ROW golf doesn't revolved around weekend members comps, big members comps, open days, interclub matches etc like us. They have a (very) casual system that's wide open to manipulation and relatively quick manipulation at that. Their golf is casual in nature compared to ours.

Russman

PARlance wrote: »

ROW golf doesn't revolved around weekend members comps, big members comps, open days, interclub matches etc like us. They have a (very) casual system that's wide open to manipulation and relatively quick manipulation at that. Their golf is casual in nature compared to ours.

Yeah from what little I know about golf in the States, it seems to be the most "competition" is in the form of bets within your 3 or 4 ball.

Seve OB

I think in the states also it is rare enough to be a member of a golf club. most of them play the field so to speak and I know from going to the Carolinas to play golf, they seemed to be all public courses. though they were no stepasides

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

I think in the states also it is rare enough to be a member of a golf club. most of them play the field so to speak and I know from going to the Carolinas to play golf, they seemed to be all public courses. though they were no stepasides

You can have an accurate unofficial HC over there very easily via online tools / apps that just replicate the official one. All you need are your previous scores, slope & course ratings. There isn't a massive incentive to join up and get an official HC.

I hope the GUI really think this through if it is indeed on the cards. Aside from the large fluctuations in HC's and what that could bring, they should really look into other markets and understand them. Most clubs outside large urban areas here won't survive if their revenue model goes from steady membership to casual golf based.

Seve OB

PARlance wrote: »

You can have an accurate unofficial HC over there very easily via online tools / apps that just replicate the official one. All you need are your previous scores, slope & course ratings. There isn't a massive incentive to join up and get an official HC.

I hope the GUI really think this through if it is indeed on the cards. Aside from the large fluctuations in HC's and what that could bring, they should really look into other markets and understand them. Most clubs outside large urban areas here won't survive if their revenue model goes from steady membership to casual golf based.

yea, but unlike here I always thought you can actually have an official handicap over there also without being a member of a club

Senecio

All handicapping systems can be manipulated if someone chooses to do so. Designing a system to stop the 1% is a futile exercise. Only we can do that by having the courage to call them out.

Australia has a similar golf culture to UK/IE. Strong membership, organised comps, social golf for the once a year's who aren't interested in a handicap. It works just fine.

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

yea, but unlike here I always thought you can actually have an official handicap over there also without being a member of a club

I'm open to correction but I don't think so, not without some affiliation to a club. Many have an accurate HC but not an official one.

PARlance

Senecio wrote: »

All handicapping systems can be manipulated if someone chooses to do so. Designing a system to stop the 1% is a futile exercise. Only we can do that by having the courage to call them out.

Australia has a similar golf culture to UK/IE. Strong membership, organised comps, social golf for the once a year's who aren't interested in a handicap. It works just fine.

Nobody is talking about designing a new system. It's quite clear which one can be manipulated easier.

The rally cry of having the "courage to call them out" sounds great but it's nothing but a soundbite.

mike12

I think it maybe for the tourist rather than the Irish market, nice them to be able to calculate their handicaps when they come.

the long lad

I really like the idea of the current system in Ireland being replaced. I'm currently playing golf in Australia and much of what is said above is true.

The real positive is that it takes 20 rounds to properly manipulate your handicap. If someone is prepared to do that to try and win the captains prize, well good luck to them. You technically can't handicap practice rounds in Australia - you're supposed to be playing in a competition of at least 3 and the club handicapper is the only person who can put the card through the system. It can also only be put through if it will have the effect of lowering your handicap. I know a lot of clubs have been very lax about this, but Golf Australia have now started to train club handicappers to stop doing this.

The guy who wants to increase his handicap should note that an online system allows you to see the golflink number of everyone who has played in the same competition as you. For example, I was today able to look up the last 20 rounds of the guy who won the comp I played in yesterday. It would be pretty obvious if someone has purposely blown his handicap out and then had a great round.

The big flaw is in the sloping though. It's done based on distances, hazards and width of fairways. We all know that courses can be difficult or easy for a variety of reasons. However, it is somewhat compensated for by the Daily Scratch Rating (equivalent of CSS) which moves with the standard of the field. As such, if it's a tough windy day the DSR will be higher.

The system was built for club golfers who play a competition once per week. This should mean (now that the dodgy handicap 70 euro memberships are no longer workable in Ireland) that it works better in Ireland than it does in Australia. For example, the DSR on a difficult course full of locals is usually lower than the DSR on a public course full of society members (who can get official handicaps in Aus). The standard of play in a particular club has a major bearing on handicaps - where standards are high, it's harder to get cut. It's obviously the same in Ireland, but it would be worsened with a new system imo.

Everyone's handicap will be lower as the system is based on potential rather than ability. It's quite rare that 40 points is the winning score - you're not supposed to be able to play to your handicap. While this would mean a lot of Irish begrudgers would be able to say 'aarrghh he's not a genuine scratch golfer', it makes everyone think they're better than they are and, I believe, prevents people from 'minding' their handicap.

Russman

the long lad wrote: »

It can also only be put through if it will have the effect of lowering your handicap.

Does this mean that a score worse than any in your last 20 counting rounds doesn't count ? Is it the top 8 of your last 20 best rounds then ? Genuinely asking.
Maybe I've misunderstood. Seems a bit odd for bad rounds not to count. Almost akin to the "old" system here where if you played to your handicap once during the year you couldn't go higher.


As an aside, would you say the slope rating system (or whatever its called) is harder or easier for the average Joe to understand and get his head round for your standard Saturday competition ?

the long lad

Russman wrote: »

the long lad wrote: »

It can also only be put through if it will have the effect of lowering your handicap.

Does this mean that a score worse than any in your last 20 counting rounds doesn't count ? Is it the top 8 of your last 20 best rounds then ? Genuinely asking.
Maybe I've misunderstood. Seems a bit odd for bad rounds not to count. Almost akin to the "old" system here where if you played to your handicap once during the year you couldn't go higher.


As an aside, would you say the slope rating system (or whatever its called) is harder or easier for the average Joe to understand and get his head round for your standard Saturday competition ?

This only applies to out of official competition/practice rounds. If a bunch of fellas go and play somewhere they can have their cards put through the system even if they don't play a comp as long as there's at least 3 of them - if it doesn't improve your h/c it gets discarded. All competitive rounds have to go through.

It's the top 8 of your last 20 rounds. So if your 20th round was a good one (a flag round) and you don't replace it with something better, your handicap goes up.

It's harder for your average Joe to understand for sure but you'd be surprised how quickly it becomes normal.

Russman

the long lad wrote: »

This only applies to out of official competition/practice rounds. If a bunch of fellas go and play somewhere they can have their cards put through the system even if they don't play a comp as long as there's at least 3 of them - if it doesn't improve your h/c it gets discarded. All competitive rounds have to go through.

It's the top 8 of your last 20 rounds. So if your 20th round was a good one (a flag round) and you don't replace it with something better, your handicap goes up.

It's harder for your average Joe to understand for sure but you'd be surprised how quickly it becomes normal.

Ahh right, sorry, I picked it up wrong.
Ok, so your handicap can still go up through competition rounds, got it now.

Presumably most or all of it is computerised and guys don't have to be keeping records and working out averages etc. ?

the long lad

It's 100% computerised and there's an app that shows you the full results from your last 20 rounds... so if think you've been beaten by a bandit, you can see his golflink number and then look up his last 20 rounds!

Russman

Its a very interesting concept and totally different to the current one.
If I understand it even half correctly, two guys off the same handicap could shoot, lets say, 38pts, on the same course and their handicaps could change by completely different amounts, depending on the make up of their best 8 out of last 20 scores. In theory, one of them could be cut and the other one could even go up, however unlikely that would be in practice.

ronjo

Here is Slovakia we use both Slope Rating and Course Rating to calculate your playing handicap on each course.

It generally works well I think.

Hoof Hearted2

Interesting fact I learned yesterday re course ratings, every course that has a UHS i.e SSS rating is calculated first using the slope rating system and is then converted to SSS i.e UHS.
So slope rating is already a universal system of course rating and it would appear only a matter of time before it's a universal HC system.

Seve OB

The more I read of it the more stupid it sounds

Montgolfier

With this system in place surely you would have to be playing Stroke competitions as standard. Would I be right in saying Americans mostly play stroke?

Hoof Hearted2

Seve OB wrote: »

The more I read of it the more stupid it sounds

Fortunately Seve your opinion doesn't matter.

Montgolfier wrote: »

With this system in place surely you would have to be playing Stroke competitions as standard. Would I be right in saying Americans mostly play stroke?

It's fully adaptable to all formats is my understanding, maybe our aussie friends could shed some light on how that works in practice.

Seve OB

Montgolfier wrote: »

With this system in place surely you would have to be playing Stroke competitions as standard. Would I be right in saying Americans mostly play stroke?

yea I don't think they even know what stableford is.

ronjo

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

It's fully adaptable to all formats is my understanding, maybe our aussie friends could shed some light on how that works in practice.

I can tell you how it works in Central Europe.

Each set of tees is assigned a Course rating and a Slope Rating. The CR is what a scratch golfer should play off and SR then adjusts for level of handicap.

For Example my handicap is currently 10.7 and my course is Par 72. The White tees have a CR of 71.9 and SR 133 and Yellows have CR of 69.8 and SR of 128.

I played a competition the other day and had a playing handicap from Whites of 12 as formula is
(Handicap + CR - PAR) * SR /113.
Its all computerised and I have played competitions in Slovakia, Czech Republic, Austria and Hungary using it.

I have an app on my phone that allows me to check what my playing handicap would be on any course in Slovakia and Czech Republic and on all the tees there.

Montgolfier

ronjo wrote: »

I can tell you how it works in Central Europe.

Each set of tees is assigned a Course rating and a Slope Rating. The CR is what a scratch golfer should play off and SR then adjusts for level of handicap.

For Example my handicap is currently 10.7 and my course is Par 72. The White tees have a CR of 71.9 and SR 133 and Yellows have CR of 69.8 and SR of 128.

I played a competition the other day and had a playing handicap from Whites of 12 as formula is
(Handicap + CR - PAR) * SR /113.
Its all computerised and I have played competitions in Slovakia, Czech Republic, Austria and Hungary using it.

I have an app on my phone that allows me to check what my playing handicap would be on any course in Slovakia and Czech Republic and on all the tees there.

Out of interest was it stroke play or stableford?

ronjo

Montgolfier wrote: »

Out of interest was it stroke play or stableford?

Stableford.

Sometimes they have Stroke play tournaments in which your actual score is adjusted for handicaps.

Its a small enough market here and people regularly play in competitions at different clubs. Virtually all competitions are Open but there was about 90 playing this one split in 2 categories.

Russman

ronjo wrote: »

I can tell you how it works in Central Europe.

Each set of tees is assigned a Course rating and a Slope Rating. The CR is what a scratch golfer should play off and SR then adjusts for level of handicap.

For Example my handicap is currently 10.7 and my course is Par 72. The White tees have a CR of 71.9 and SR 133 and Yellows have CR of 69.8 and SR of 128.

I played a competition the other day and had a playing handicap from Whites of 12 as formula is
(Handicap + CR - PAR) * SR /113.
Its all computerised and I have played competitions in Slovakia, Czech Republic, Austria and Hungary using it.

I have an app on my phone that allows me to check what my playing handicap would be on any course in Slovakia and Czech Republic and on all the tees there.

So, the CR & SR never change and the only variable in working out your playing handicap is your actual exact handicap ?
I assume that it would be easy enough to produce a chart or list for the locker room notice board showing what every handicap converts to for each set of tees ? Given there will be always fellas who don't have the app or their phone etc.

Russman

Would it also be true to say that getting a cut or an increase is at least one step further removed from the competition of the day, given that its dependent on your best 8 out of last 20 scores, rather than how the field performed on a given day ?