Post of Responsibility

feardeas

The idea that the next in line should get it was always farcical and is more so now. The idea that every single teacher is competent at their teaching never mind added responsibilities is laughable.

The reinstatement of posts is very necessary. There should be an audit in schools to ensure the workload is fair. I also think that there should be concession in timetable for all posts if they're to be done properly.

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah I think that's correct. Your pension, post 2004, is calculated by adding 1/80 of your salary every year for 40 years and the sum is your annual pension. So if you were casual/part time etc in early years it can have a huge effect on it.

Post 2004 to Pre 2012 is 1/80 of final salary multiplied by number of years of service, but even if the teacher has done their 40 years, they can't go until 65, or rather no pension will be paid out until 65 even if they have completed their 40 years. Also 65 is minimum age to go, a teacher who doesn't have 40 years service at 65 can continue working (the horror!!)

Post 2012 is 1/80 of career average earnings multiplied by years of service. Same rule applies in terms of retirement age.

man_no_plan

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Post 2004 to Pre 2012 is 1/80 of final salary multiplied by number of years of service, but even if the teacher has done their 40 years, they can't go until 65, or rather no pension will be paid out until 65 even if they have completed their 40 years. Also 65 is minimum age to go, a teacher who doesn't have 40 years service at 65 can continue working (the horror!!)

Post 2012 is 1/80 of career average earnings multiplied by years of service. Same rule applies in terms of retirement age.

Fair play for that level of detail on a Friday evening!

doc_17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Post 2004 to Pre 2012 is 1/80 of final salary multiplied by number of years of service, but even if the teacher has done their 40 years, they can't go until 65, or rather no pension will be paid out until 65 even if they have completed their 40 years. Also 65 is minimum age to go, a teacher who doesn't have 40 years service at 65 can continue working (the horror!!)

Post 2012 is 1/80 of career average earnings multiplied by years of service. Same rule applies in terms of retirement age.

Sorry, can I just ask if you meant that it's 1/80 or your total career earnings? So say 50,000 x 40 = 2,000,000 and 1/80 of that would be 25,000?

man_no_plan

doc_17 wrote: »

Sorry, can I just ask if you meant that it's 1/80 or your total career earnings? So say 50,000 x 40 = 2,000,000 and 1/80 of that would be 25,000?

It's 1/80 x final salary x no of years service

DES pension modeller, the final pension excludes the state pension which is also paid to new entrants. There's a detailed thread here on it.

http://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Services/Retirement-Pensions/Pensions-Modeller/Pensions-Modeller.html

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

Sorry, can I just ask if you meant that it's 1/80 or your total career earnings? So say 50,000 x 40 = 2,000,000 and 1/80 of that would be 25,000?

For which one?


Pre 2012: If you work 40 years, you get 40/80 of final salary. If you finish on 60k per year as your final salary after 40 years, then you get 30k pension. What you earned in the early years is irrelevant, which is why it was mentioned on this thread about going for the A post to boost the pension. With a finishing salary 8k higher than a finishing salary without an A post, for the teacher who works the full 40 years that will effectively mean an extra 4k on their retirement pension.


Post 2012. You add up your salary each year for all the years you work. Get the average. Multiply that average by (number of years worked/80).

If over 40 years your salary worked out on average to be 32k, then it would be 40/80 * 32 which would be 16k.

The calculation is the exact same only the career average earnings is going to bring down pensions significantly, as so many teachers are struggling to get hours in the first 7 or 8 years, many being on part time hours. Even teachers in the ideal scenario (full hours straight out of college, work 40 years with no career breaks etc on full hours) will not be getting the same wage each year because of the pay scale. The lower end of the pay scale will reduce the average.

I did out a calculation on it last year and posted it here:

and the more depressing one here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97054430&postcount=19

gavwaldo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

For which one?


Pre 2012: If you work 40 years, you get 40/80 of final salary. If you finish on 60k per year as your final salary after 40 years, then you get 30k pension. What you earned in the early years is irrelevant, which is why it was mentioned on this thread about going for the A post to boost the pension. With a finishing salary 8k higher than a finishing salary without an A post, for the teacher who works the full 40 years that will effectively mean an extra 4k on their retirement pension.


Post 2012. You add up your salary each year for all the years you work. Get the average. Multiply that average by (number of years worked/80).

Hi,

Do you know which side of the pension fence one would be if started work in Sept 2012........fingers crossed!!!!

rainbowtrout

gavwaldo wrote: »

Hi,

Do you know which side of the pension fence one would be if started work in Sept 2012........fingers crossed!!!!

The career average earnings pension kicked in on Jan 1, 2013, so looks like you made it into the better pension. However, if you are unemployed for 26 consecutive weeks or take a break from teaching that is not an approved break ( such as sick leave, maternity leave or career break), and then you return to teaching you will be put into the new pension scheme...

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/Circulars/Circulars2013/cl0007_2013.pdf

*waits for gavwaldo's dance of joy* :pac:

gavwaldo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The career average earnings pension kicked in on Jan 1, 2013, so looks like you made it into the better pension. However, if you are unemployed for 26 consecutive weeks or take a break from teaching that is not an approved break ( such as sick leave, maternity leave or career break), and then you return to teaching you will be put into the new pension scheme...

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/Circulars/Circulars2013/cl0007_2013.pdf

*waits for gavwaldo's dance of joy* :pac:

WOW!!!
dance for joy is an understatment. just started my first RPT contract and now this amazing news......even makes the four crappy years worth it.

thanks rainbowtrout !!!!

jjdonegal

Is there progress being made in relation to the reintroduction of posts in some shape or form? I remember something being mentioned about a review in HRA but can't remember the finer details.

km79

jjdonegal wrote: »

Is there progress being made in relation to the reintroduction of posts in some shape or form? I remember something being mentioned about a review in HRA but can't remember the finer details.

NO
All the union have done in the last 8 years about it is stop people dong the work for free
Not a peep on it since

jjdonegal

km79 wrote: »

NO
All the union have done in the last 8 years about it is stop people dong the work for free
Not a peep on it since

It still happens in places id imagine. I was dead sure a review was mentioned in the HRA Agreement although I stand to be corrected on that.

joebloggs32

jjdonegal wrote: »

Is there progress being made in relation to the reintroduction of posts in some shape or form? I remember something being mentioned about a review in HRA but can't remember the finer details.

Yes. Expect some restoration for September 2017. Not sure though if it's happening though in ASTI schools
New structure of AP1 and AP2.
AP1 will be the same as current AP and AP2 similar to current SD post. There will be a change in the interview process with seniority being virtually removed.

km79

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Yes. Expect some restoration for September 2017. Not sure though if it's happening though in ASTI schools
New structure of AP1 and AP2.
AP1 will be the same as current AP and AP2 similar to current SD post. There will be a change in the interview process with seniority being virtually removed.

where is this info from ?

joebloggs32

km79 wrote: »

where is this info from ?

It is part of the deal reached on pay for the NQTS last week. The following can be found on the Q&A section on the deal on the TUI website.

What reforms will be sought as a result of the agreement?
The TUI had sought and, in the May 2016 Agreement it secured, a review of the post of
responsibility structure in schools, in the context of restoration of posts. Under the 16th
September document, that review will, inter alia, address the further development of a
distributed leadership model, the accountability of post holders and the redesignation of
the current post of Assistant Principal as Assistant Principal I and of the current post of
Special Duties Teacher as Assistant Principal II.
The grounds for appeal in respect of competitions for appointment to posts of responsibility
will be confined to an alleged breach of the procedure as set out in Department Circulars.
However, the review is tasked with ensuring that those procedures provide for consistency,
fairness and probity.
The existing criteria for selection for posts of responsibility will be revised with a view to
phasing out Seniority/Length of Service as a stand-alone criterion, while still reflecting the
value of a teacher’s experience and how that contributes to their capacity to meet the
requirements of the post.
There will also be an immediate time-bound engagement to resolve issues with the teacher
induction process.
Crucially, these reforms will not add to the workload of TUI members.

km79

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is part of the deal reached on pay for the NQTS last week. The following can be found on the Q&A section on the deal on the TUI website.

What reforms will be sought as a result of the agreement?
The TUI had sought and, in the May 2016 Agreement it secured, a review of the post of
responsibility structure in schools, in the context of restoration of posts. Under the 16th
September document, that review will, inter alia, address the further development of a
distributed leadership model, the accountability of post holders and the redesignation of
the current post of Assistant Principal as Assistant Principal I and of the current post of
Special Duties Teacher as Assistant Principal II.
The grounds for appeal in respect of competitions for appointment to posts of responsibility
will be confined to an alleged breach of the procedure as set out in Department Circulars.
However, the review is tasked with ensuring that those procedures provide for consistency,
fairness and probity.
The existing criteria for selection for posts of responsibility will be revised with a view to
phasing out Seniority/Length of Service as a stand-alone criterion, while still reflecting the
value of a teacher’s experience and how that contributes to their capacity to meet the
requirements of the post.
There will also be an immediate time-bound engagement to resolve issues with the teacher
induction process.
Crucially, these reforms will not add to the workload of TUI members.

so a "review"
Nothing concrete there
Promises promises promises
reviews reviews reviews

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

so a "review"
Nothing concrete there
Promises promises promises
reviews reviews reviews

For new appointees it will mean less pay for AP1 and AP2 than for current AP and and SD holders and more work, I guarantee it.

Notorious

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Seniority only counts for part of it.

All's fair in love and war. I think it'd be nuts for folk to 'allow' someone get the job (or maybe it's an honourable thing to do!).

I second this. I think it's absolutely ludicrous to 'let' someone go for the job. I've applied for everything that comes up in my school, even though I'm only in the job a wet day.

We have ended up with staff members who resent others as a result of not being called up for an interview, but at the end of the day a promotion should go to the strongest candidate - not the longest serving.

The position will bolster your cv and wages (along with the pension, so I'm told). As others mentioned, keep it to yourself. The staff will probably find out eventually, but nobody could call you out for trying to better your career.

I think it's so important for there to be competition for important positions in the school - I've heard of a story of a very weak year head being appointed (due to education and length of service) and behaviour amoung their year group becoming disastrous. That would just make the job harder for everyone.