Are Ireland's roads safe for cyclists?

Jawgap

......so asks an article on the Journal in the wake of recent collisions that resulted in the deaths of cyclists.

THE DEATH OF a woman cycling to work in Dublin has put an increased focus on the dangers facing cyclists on Irish roads.

Donna Fox (30) died in the East Wall area of Dublin when she was hit by a truck on Monday. In the two weeks previous, two young boys also died after being hit by cars when they were cycling in Louth and Offaly.

In all, nine cyclist have been killed this year and there are calls for a greater focus on the protection of vulnerable people using Ireland’s roads.

My own view is that yes, Ireland's and Dublin's roads are more than safe enough for cyclists and that too much significance shouldn't be attached to single, tragic, high profile events that garner significant media attention.

Saying that, there's always room for improvement. Personally, I'd like to see....

• Much more vigorous enforcement of the safe passing requirements that exist in Irish road traffic legislation
  
• "Left on red" being allowed at as many junctions as is safe to do so
  
• Much more effort put into road safety, rather than just driver behaviour/standards, by the Road Safety Authority - they could start by dropping their fetishisation of hi-viz and promote proper lighting up along with safe cycling behaviour rather than just autonomic compliance with legislation - there needs to be a recognition that blind compliance with the legislation as it stands is not synonymous with safe cycling
  
• Campaigns to encourage / remind cyclists to avoid the inside of HGVs and how to do so - and campaigns to encourage HGV drivers not to pull alongside cyclists who have already stopped at a junction before them......it's one thing to put cyclists in cabs so they get an impression of what drivers can/cannot see, but why not put HGV drives on bikes and let them experience what cyclists experience?

Macy0161

I would agree with that, although I would support minimum passing legislation stating a limit. I didn't initially, but since I've upped the mileage I really do see the need. That, together with support for bike/ helmet cam footage for enforcement.

In terms of the roads, I would say in general there's nothing wrong with the roads, it's the road users!

It all pretty much it comes down to enforcement. There is very little enforcement of any road traffic legislation, and personally I think to change the culture we need to really clamp down on the things that are an easy, but capital expenditure fix. We need many more fixed, and fixed average speed cameras (they don't need cameras in all of them, all the time, rotate them around), red light cameras (including for cyclists, for targeting junctions and/or stats to either back or not the claims), greater use of APRN's for whatever they can catch - tax/ insurance/ disqualified drivers/ unqualified drivers/ bus lane drivers. Completely change the culture of the roads.

There is a big education piece too. I'd like to think I used to give adequate space, and adequately check blind spots at junctions before I was cycling more, but there's no doubt I'm more conscious now. I'd say that's fed through to my family members, who I've educated/ lectured when they've done too close a pass for my liking.

If we want to change the motorists’ view of cyclists, the greatest way would be to get more of them out on the bike. Ideally I'd like them to have to spend at least an hour on a bike a year to maintain a licence - get a fleet of trikes/ electric bikes if people claim they can't, or aren't fit enough!

Even if safety options couldn't be enforced on existing fleet, I think it's time to make clear cabs, or cameras/ sensor a standard on new HGV's. I would also like to see it as at least a discussion for them to be the minimum requirement for HGV's within the cordon in Dublin. Putting the complete onus on cyclist behaviour is victim blaming - if there's a problem with HGV/ Cyclist intervention it has to be looked at from both Cyclist and HGV and Driver point of view.

Atlantic Dawn

Teaching rules of the road in primary school would help.

Macy0161

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Teaching rules of the road in primary school would help.

Not convinced it would tbh. As we keep getting reminded, motorists have to pass a theory and practical test, and look at the standard of driving/ ignorance of the rules of the road!

Jawgap

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Teaching rules of the road in primary school would help.

I was never convinced about arguments that teaching cycling and RoTR in school would help - doing something about the traffic / parking the vicinity of schools might be a better idea.

Talking to an engineer recently who was in the Netherlands on a study trip and they were examining some of the measures in place around a school when a car rolled up and let a couple of kids out (school had already started at this stage) - the car then pulled a u-turn and drove off.

A few minutes later a lady, who it turns out was the driver of the car, comes puffing up on her bike and begins apologising profusely to the official looking group for driving up to the school, and the cycles off. The Irish lads remarked on the socially responsible attitude that led her to return and apologise and their Dutch colleagues laughed saying it was nothing to do with that - she was worried she be reported to the police for driving in the exclusion area that operates around the school!

TheQuietFella

In my opinion the roads of Ireland will never be safe as there are too many idiot cyclists out there thinking that they're in The Tour De France particularly on the streets of Dublin.

Women shouldn't be allowed on the roads of this country either.
The amount of times I've been on a motorway and went to overtake the car in front of me for them to suddenly find the accelerator! What makes it worse is when they find themselves behind a HGV they just sit there and do nothing!

irishrover99

TheQuietFella wrote: »

In my opinion the roads of Ireland will never be safe as there are too many idiot cyclists out there thinking that they're in The Tour De France particularly on the streets of Dublin.

Women shouldn't be allowed on the roads of this country either.
The amount of times I've been on a motorway and went to overtake the car in front of me for them to suddenly find the accelerator! What makes it worse is when they find themselves behind a HGV they just sit there and do nothing!

Gob****e Ted

Jawgap

Oh, I'd like to add one more to my 'wish list'......

.....with more and more cyclists getting helmet cams and the like I think it'd be great if AGS could put in place a mechanism / process whereby footage could be submitted for consideration for further action, much as the Met do in London.....

.....I think that would be a strong deterrent against close passing and poor driver, cyclist etc behaviour.

magicbastarder

i'd be too afraid of 'teaching the rules of the road in school' morphing into 'teaching driving' (cos i've heard people suggest many times this should be done); and the last thing we should be doing is elevating driving to the level where it's considered a life skill.

DirkVoodoo

Maybe if we had some enforcement of the law, I drove to work today, saw the following:

- Recycling truck perform a U-turn on carysfort avenue.
- Car cut-in to queue of traffic on brewery road, car began swerving a little on Brewery road, as I got behind car I saw driver was on phone.
- Car that had been between me and phone guy pulled in to cycle path on Brewery road to let passenger out. This is a lane with a kerb, how are cyclists supposed to get around?
- And the crowning "wtf?" moment: coming up to the sandyford junction (the new one at the luas bridge). Phone driver hesitates then goes through red light. I stop. Taxi that was behind me and to my right hits the gas and goes through a red that had been solid for 2 or 3 seconds.

I also was surprised at the number of cyclists going through red lights onto the N11, mostly from Brewery road, a few on N11 northbound. Would they pose the same risk as the cars above? No, but definitely endangering themselves.

Where are the gardai??? Why do we not have red light cameras if the country is obsessed with squeezing money out of people, at least squeeze the idiots who make roads dangerous!

smacl

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Teaching rules of the road in primary school would help.

IMO, time would be much better spent teaching them how to cycle safely as a practical rather than theoretical exercise. Passive measures such as hi-viz and helmets are no substitute for education and experience and really amount to little more than tokenism on the part of a national interest in safe cycling.

From a safety point of view the roads are very mixed, but I think with a bit of planning your can find safe routes for most levels of cycling.

Given that the best way to improve cycling safety is to increase the number of cyclists on the road and decrease the number of short car journeys, I'd love to see a video from the RSA that advocated cycling as a healthy, fun, and green mode of transport rather than constantly focusing on risk factors. No wonder most non-cyclists consider cycling dangerous as all the media puts out is information about the dangers of cycling and news about the fatalities.

Weepsie

Jawgap wrote: »

Oh, I'd like to add one more to my 'wish list'......

.....with more and more cyclists getting helmet cams and the like I think it'd be great if AGS could put in place a mechanism / process whereby footage could be submitted for consideration for further action, much as the Met do in London.....

.....I think that would be a strong deterrent against close passing and poor driver, cyclist etc behaviour.

CycleDub would get such a hard on if that happened. What will also happen is every little whiney person like him will sent very 10 second clip of a driver edging out turn and every other non incident that is going to one day give him a stroke.

QuietFella. Women are still considered safer drivers. I see as many men with staring at phones, and ive seen more men driving like they're playing GTA than I have cyclists thinking they're in the TdF.


The incident the other day needs one thing first and foremost. Teach cyclists and drivers alike about HGV and Bus blind spots. Cyclists have a duty of care too to not put themselves in that position. You see a truck up ahead, stop a bit behind, try and get the drivers attention. Move on when clear. Anyone going up inside a truck is not far from potential disaster

Macy0161

smacl wrote: »

IMO, time would be much better spent teaching them how to cycle safely as a practical rather than theoretical exercise. Passive measures such as hi-viz and helmets are no substitute for education and experience and really amount to little more than tokenism on the part of a national interest in safe cycling.

I always forget on these threads that I did a rospa cycling proficiency course/ test when I was in primary school in the UK - no idea whether it's still as good, but certainly taught the fundamentals of road position, signalling etc.

Fian

TheQuietFella wrote: »

In my opinion the roads of Ireland will never be safe as there are too many idiot cyclists out there thinking that they're in The Tour De France particularly on the streets of Dublin.

Women shouldn't be allowed on the roads of this country either.
The amount of times I've been on a motorway and went to overtake the car in front of me for them to suddenly find the accelerator! What makes it worse is when they find themselves behind a HGV they just sit there and do nothing!

I will treat your opinion with all the respect it deserves.

Jawgap

Weepsie wrote: »

CycleDub would get such a hard on if that happened. What will also happen is every little whiney person like him will sent very 10 second clip of a driver edging out turn and every other non incident that is going to one day give him a stroke.

....

I think as with the Met, there'd be no obligation on the Guards to act. So a 10 second clip only needs to be viewed for 10 seconds before it gets dumped. Plus any such system could run on an 'exception' basis - in other words you make your submission (including the required form) and if you hear nothing within, say, 28 days you assume the Guards have decided no action was necessary.

Plus make the submission form long enough and it will deter the more 'fragile' cyclists

Weepsie

Weepsie wrote: »

The incident the other day needs one thing first and foremost. Teach cyclists and drivers alike about HGV and Bus blind spots. Cyclists have a duty of care too to not put themselves in that position. You see a truck up ahead, stop a bit behind, try and get the drivers attention. Move on when clear. Anyone going up inside a truck is not far from potential disaster

The truck driver has the 'duty of care'. They are the one driving the machine that kills people when it rolls over them.

In answer to the OP, I think they are generally safe of course. Removing or restricting vehicles with large blind spots in urban areas would be a huge help. Worth noting they are also just damaging to the urban environment full stop, it's not just a cycling safety thing.

The default setting should be no HGVs within the M50 unless you've got a really good reason why there is no possible alternative, and we should tighten the definition of 'HGV' to include any high-cab vehicles with blind spots.

TheQuietFella

Deleted User wrote: »

The truck driver has the 'duty of care'. They are the one driving the machine that kills people when it rolls over them.

In answer to the OP, I think they are generally safe of course. Removing or restricting vehicles with large blind spots in urban areas would be a huge help. Worth noting they are also just damaging to the urban environment full stop, it's not just a cycling safety thing.

The default setting should be no HGVs within the M50 unless you've got a really good reason why there is no possible alternative, and we should tighten the definition of 'HGV' to include any high-cab vehicles with blind spots.

The incident on the M8 occurred because a female driver decided to stop suddenly on a motorway in order for her friend to hear a phone call!
The truck that killed her unfortunately doesn't stop as quickly as a car does but again women in a modern environment, no place for them!

Chips Lovell

TheQuietFella wrote: »

The incident on the M8 occurred because a female driver decided to stop suddenly on a motorway in order for her friend to hear a phone call!
The truck that killed her unfortunately doesn't stop as quickly as a car does but again women in a modern environment, no place for them!

Troll banned

Weepsie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The truck driver has the 'duty of care'. They are the one driving the machine that kills people when it rolls over them.

In answer to the OP, I think they are generally safe of course. Removing or restricting vehicles with large blind spots in urban areas would be a huge help. Worth noting they are also just damaging to the urban environment full stop, it's not just a cycling safety thing.

The default setting should be no HGVs within the M50 unless you've got a really good reason why there is no possible alternative, and we should tighten the definition of 'HGV' to include any high-cab vehicles with blind spots.

I didn't say they didn't. However, wtf has happened to personal responsibility. If I see a HGV or truck up ahead, i know that I need to hang back, particularly at a junction.

Now it's different if I'm there first and it rolls up along side me, but you can't just put all the responsibility on the driver in all instances. A bit of common sense should see you thinking "oh that 10 tonne truck could kill me, I'll approach this situation with caution".

This morning, only 500 metres from Tuesday's accident I saw 4 morons squeeze up inside a truck. A truck driver can't be held fully responsible for idiots like that

Macy0161

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I also was surprised at the number of cyclists going through red lights onto the N11, mostly from Brewery road, a few on N11 northbound. Would they pose the same risk as the cars above? No, but definitely endangering themselves.

Was in the car this morning - amount of red light jumping by cars was ridiculous this morning - it's always pretty bad, but was caught in a red wave and every junction at least two cars went through clear reds, never mind the amber gamblers.

Have never really noticed lots of cyclists going through the reds on that route either on bike, or when in the car though.

beauf

Make drivers cycle as part of their driving test.

There's a lot of anti cycling bias in the media which doesn't help. A lot of commentators on cycling issues don't have any experience of cycling.

Macy0161

Macy0161 wrote: »

Was in the car this morning - amount of red light jumping by cars was ridiculous this morning - it's always pretty bad, but was caught in a red wave and every junction at least two cars went through clear reds, never mind the amber gamblers.

Have never really noticed lots of cyclists going through the reds on that route either on bike, or when in the car though.

It appears red is the new orange.

beauf

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

....
I also was surprised at the number of cyclists going through red lights onto the N11, mostly from Brewery road, a few on N11 northbound. Would they pose the same risk as the cars above? No, but definitely endangering themselves.

Where are the gardai??? Why do we not have red light cameras if the country is obsessed with squeezing money out of people, at least squeeze the idiots who make roads dangerous!

Last research stats I looked at red light breaking isn't a big cause of accidents for cyclists. But I disagree with it as you need respect from other road users and this destroys it.

Yeah enforcement. Where is it.

Weepsie

Weepsie wrote: »

I didn't say they didn't. However, wtf has happened to personal responsibility. If I see a HGV or truck up ahead, i know that I need to hang back, particularly at a junction.

Now it's different if I'm there first and it rolls up along side me, but you can't just put all the responsibility on the driver in all instances. A bit of common sense should see you thinking "oh that 10 tonne truck could kill me, I'll approach this situation with caution".

This morning, only 500 metres from Tuesday's accident I saw 4 morons squeeze up inside a truck. A truck driver can't be held fully responsible for idiots like that

This might sound like nit-picking but 'duty of care' means something specific. Truck drivers have a duty of care, cyclists as a rule don't or rather its of a different order because the damage a bike does is so much less.

Precisely part of the problem is that when cyclists get mushed by HGVs we start talking about idiot cyclists rather than asking why vehicles with large blind spots are being driven in urban areas, and why they are taking left turns when they don't KNOW their inside is clear. They can't be responsible for everything, but someone IS responsible for deciding it is OK for these vehicles to drive in urban areas.

But I do of course agree about cyclists being smart, when it comes to my children they receive stern lectures on a regular basis about the dangers of going up the inside of large vehicles. They are sick of hearing about it!

iguana

I think something that might help would be a requirement for all drivers to do a refresher course every 10 years. There are an awful lot of drivers who repeatedly demonstrate scant regard for the law, the safety of other road users and pedestrians or themselves. There are too many drivers who learned to drive in what was essentially another reality in terms of our roads and vehicles, who have developed bad habits, who have gotten complacent, we even have fully licensed drivers who never had to pass any test. When someone has been driving all their adult life I think it's really easy to forget you are going around each day with the ability to kill multiple persons if you don't take proper care. That bad parking can put others at risk, etc. So making drivers take the time to regularly brush up on their skills and maintain them because if they don't demonstrate an ability to drive safely and follow the rules they could lose their license.

That along with enforcement of the existing laws would make the roads safer for everyone.

Chips Lovell

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Where are the gardai???

Size of the Garda Traffic Corps has fallen from 1,200 to 700 over past few years. That's unlikely to change any time soon, since any extra money going into policing at the moment is being directed at gangland crime.

Macy0161

I've thought of another issue to be addressed - advance stop lines/ boxes are routinely ignored, in many cases deliberately imo. If they don't have the status of a yellow box, they should be given it (and something else that should be automatically captured).

Also, are advance stop lines big/ long enough. They'd still put you in the blind spot of HGV if it was front of the motorised vehicle queue.

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Size of the Garda Traffic Corps has fallen from 1,200 to 700 over past few years. That's unlikely to change any time soon, since any extra money going into policing at the moment is being directed at gangland crime.

That's why we need more, and extensive, automatic systems - speed/ average speed/ APRN's. Free up the traffic corp for stuff that can't be captured.

There's a real vicious circle regarding red light jumping by motorists. Our light squences are long to allow for amber and red gambling. Which causes frustration, and more jumping the lights, and then longer sequences. With red light cameras, sequence times could be reduced.

tomasrojo

smacl wrote: »

From a safety point of view the roads are very mixed, but I think with a bit of planning your can find safe routes for most levels of cycling.

This is very true. Picking your route is maybe the most important step. Other mitigation measures are pretty paltry in comparison to having a route that isn't full of fast-moving, impatient drivers in narrow lanes, or with hurtling HGVs. Acting predictably comes second, and shouldn't need emphasis, but it probably does.

All other measures, including the AGS and RSA's passive favourites are much less important.

magicbastarder

there's one road i cycle on every couple of weeks, the garristown road from the broadmeadow (the R130) and someday, there's going to be a bad smash on that road, as there's a distribution depot on the road which has a constant stream of articulated lorries shuttling to and from it. i've not had any near misses on the bike, thankfully, but i've had a couple in the car. and there's a couple of near 90 degree bends on that road too.

it seems to be the sort of depot which started small and just got bigger and bigger; no way they'd get planning permission for its like on a greenfield site on a road like that if starting from scratch.

PaulieC

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I also was surprised at the number of cyclists going through red lights onto the N11, mostly from Brewery road, a few on N11 northbound. Would they pose the same risk as the cars above? No, but definitely endangering themselves.

On the cycle lane ? I always ignore the lights at the end of Brewery Road/N11 junction going north as the cycle lane is 'inside' the traffic lights i.e. the cycle lane is not on the road. Is this wrong ?

robyntmorton

PaulieC wrote: »

On the cycle lane ? I always ignore the lights at the end of Brewery Road/N11 junction going north as the cycle lane is 'inside' the traffic lights i.e. the cycle lane is not on the road. Is this wrong ?

Looking at it on street view, the cycle lane appears to be outside the signal area, though it appears to be aimed that you then go down St. Brigid's Church Rd. The turn from there to N11 looks more questionable, though is that a case of the design being wrong?

Breaking the red to go through that junction northbound though is just idiotic.