Are Ireland's roads safe for cyclists?

PaulieC

robyntmorton wrote: »

though is that a case of the design being wrong?

It's just another case of cycle lanes going nowhere. If you go down St. Brigid's Church Road, it comes to a complete stop after the bus stop.

magicbastarder

i'm sure it can't be difficult, using google maps, to create a 'heat map' of incidents involving cyclists?
the main issue would be 'spam' style entries, but if commuting cyclists were able to stick a pin on a map, say on cross guns bridge, and say 'i had a close pass from a bus here', it might help identify problematic roads or junctions, especially if the incidents reported are consistent.
main issue would be getting enough reliable data, probably.

i'd also be interested if local authorities can (and do) buy data from strava - though strava would obviously not be used nearly as much by commuting cyclists, and even if so, by confident cyclists, so wouldn't capture the more casual commuters.

what could also help with this is whether bikes are tracked on the dublin bike scheme; i.e. can they tell out of 1000 bike journeys made from exchequer street, how many go south, how many north, etc.?

PaulieC

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm sure it can't be difficult, using google maps, to create a 'heat map' of incidents involving cyclists?
the main issue would be 'spam' style entries, but if commuting cyclists were able to stick a pin on a map, say on cross guns bridge, and say 'i had a close pass from a bus here', it might help identify problematic roads or junctions, especially if the incidents reported are consistent.
main issue would be getting enough reliable data, probably.

i'd also be interested if local authorities can (and do) buy data from strava - though strava would obviously not be used nearly as much by commuting cyclists, and even if so, by confident cyclists, so wouldn't capture the more casual commuters.

what could also help with this is whether bikes are tracked on the dublin bike scheme; i.e. can they tell out of 1000 bike journeys made from exchequer street, how many go south, how many north, etc.?

It might work if everyone had the same idea of what an incident was.

magicbastarder

yeah, that's the main issue. consistency.

Carlos Orange

PaulieC wrote: »

It's just another case of cycle lanes going nowhere. If you go down St. Brigid's Church Road, it comes to a complete stop after the bus stop.

It probably isn't a coincidence that it stops at a bicycle rack.

PaulieC

psinno wrote: »

It probably isn't a coincidence that it stops at a bicycle rack.

There is a yield at the cycle rack, but continues on for another bit before fizzling out

DirkVoodoo

PaulieC wrote: »

On the cycle lane ? I always ignore the lights at the end of Brewery Road/N11 junction going north as the cycle lane is 'inside' the traffic lights i.e. the cycle lane is not on the road. Is this wrong ?

I cycle it most days. If green light I follow the traffic, if red I take the cycle path and stop at the bollard, when the light goes green for traffic I move off. There were guys this morning taking risks out in front of other cyclists or traffic.

Left turn on red should be allowed for bikes, there is nothing really wrong with it and self preservation means it should be safe. The dangerous ones who are likely to pull out in front of other cyclists will do so regardless of it being legal or not.

Chips Lovell

Jawgap wrote: »

My own view is that yes, Ireland's and Dublin's roads are more than safe enough for cyclists

This. My own view is that it's by far the most important thing is that the messaging has to change. We can't expect people to cycle while simultaneously making them feel that cycling is dangerous. It isn't. If you want to promote cycling, do so with images of healthy, happy people on their bikes.

boardbeer

Human-operated motor vehicles are the problem. AV's will sort that out.

Happy_Harry

Are Ireland's roads safe for cyclists ?

No- I don't know about Dublin, but outside Dublin, definitely not.

The infrastructure in Ireland is not designed for cyclists, it is designed (at best) for cars.

If you want to encourage cycling, the only way to make it safer is to invest in cycle lanes, separated from the main road. I was cycling everywhere in Holland since I was 4. Never had an accident other than falling off my bike due to ice or my own fault.
I would not dream of getting on a bike here. I value my life.

How can it be safe, if you have cyclists on narrow-ish roads at 20km/h with cars/HGVs at 100 km/h. It simply doesn't go together, especially since drivers are not used to cyclists. It will take a long time to get driver behavior changed, and even then, if everyone making a left turn would look over their shoulder to spot a cyclist , as I still do, this will not be a safe country for cyclists.

My daughter does have a bike, but the the only place she will be cycling is on the lane in front of my house with less than 5 cars a day, and even there I don't like it. She can moan all she likes, I will drive her wherever she wants/needs to go, but she will never be cycling on the roads until there are cycle lanes.

Happy_Harry

Happy_Harry wrote: »

No- I don't know about Dublin, but outside Dublin, definitely not.

The infrastructure in Ireland is not designed for cyclists, it is designed (at best) for cars.

If you want to encourage cycling, the only way to make it safer is to invest in cycle lanes, separated from the main road. I was cycling everywhere in Holland since I was 4. Never had an accident other than falling off my bike due to ice or my own fault.
I would not dream of getting on a bike here. I value my life.

How can it be safe, if you have cyclists on narrow-ish roads at 20km/h with cars/HGVs at 100 km/h. It simply doesn't go together, especially since drivers are not used to cyclists. It will take a long time to get driver behavior changed, and even then, if everyone making a left turn would look over their shoulder to spot a cyclist , as I still do, this will not be a safe country for cyclists.

My daughter does have a bike, but the the only place she will be cycling is on the lane in front of my house with less than 5 cars a day, and even there I don't like it. She can moan all she likes, I will drive her wherever she wants/needs to go, but she will never be cycling on the roads until there are cycle lanes.

Cycling on Irish roads is largely safe and for the most part motorists are considerate and give plenty of room.

I don't agree with your pessimistic outlook on cycling on Irish roads at all.

But I do a agree we should follow Hollands lead and make cycling a priority in Town centers and introduce something like strict liability.

magicbastarder

only once can i think of a situation where i was on a narrowish road and a car passed me at 100km/h+ (and i reckon he was doing 140 or 150km/h!)

Happy_Harry

ronoc wrote: »

Cycling on Irish roads is largely safe and for the most part motorists are considerate and give plenty of room.

They do give plenty of space when they spot the cyclists on time, unfortunately our roads are not all very straight and due to the difference in speed, it can be hard to spot cyclists on these roads. I have a lot of bends in the roads near me.

I don't agree with your pessimistic outlook on cycling on Irish roads at all.

Fair enough, it is my view and I know it may not be a popular one.

But I do a agree we should follow Hollands lead and make cycling a priority in Town centers and introduce something like strict liability.

The strict liability is a good system for cyclists and pedestrians, however I don't think it is what makes cycling in Holland safe. It is the infrastructure, and not just in towns. I am pretty sure (it is been a while that I was cycling in Holland) that every main connecting road between towns has a separated cycle lane. Sure there are some back roads without cycle lanes, and I would not find it particularly safe to cycle there either, but there won't be many, if any, trucks on those roads.

DirkVoodoo

Happy_Harry wrote: »

They do give plenty of space when they spot the cyclists on time, unfortunately our roads are not all very straight and due to the difference in speed, it can be hard to spot cyclists on these roads. I have a lot of bends in the roads near me.

Your justification is common among Irish motorists - it's the road or the cyclists, it's not me.

The simple fact is that if you are travelling at such a speed on a narrow winding road that you are unable to react to potential hazards around the next bend, you are driving too fast for the conditions.

Our 80/100 km/hr speed "limits" on country roads are ludicrous and reinforce this behavior - I was driving that fast because the sign told me to.

EDIT: Most country roads are fine for cycling, in fact they were designed for it, or for cars that would struggle to maintain 50 kmhr safely, now we have 200bhp diesel cars with "intelligent" driver and safety aids, making warp speed possible. It's the cars that aren't suitable, not the cyclists or the roads.

boardbeer

Happy_Harry wrote: »

It is the infrastructure, and not just in towns. I am pretty sure (it is been a while that I was cycling in Holland) that every main connecting road between towns has a separated cycle lane.

I don't think the it is the separated lanes that make it safer in places like the Netherlands and Denmark, but the way the junctions are arranged (ok, this is nearly always facilitated by bike and motor traffic feeding in from separate lanes), however, there are solutions for manage this better even without separation.

dermabrasion

I think you can pretty much break the ROTR with impunity, or a fairly remote chance of prosecution. Outside of speed camera's, you can drive up the bus lane, speed on backroads or housing estates, run red lights, park on footpaths and text to your hearts content. Your not going to be caught.

Sadly, I have no confidence the Garda will act to protect me. I know there are reasons for this, but it has been my personal experience that they don't.
I really wish we had enforcement, because if you call another Irish person on their lawbreaking, you will be told to f***-off. And that's it. No consequence.

Bloggsie

smacl wrote: »

IMO, time would be much better spent teaching them how to cycle safely as a practical rather than theoretical exercise. Passive measures such as hi-viz and helmets are no substitute for education and experience and really amount to little more than tokenism on the part of a national interest in safe cycling.

From a safety point of view the roads are very mixed, but I think with a bit of planning your can find safe routes for most levels of cycling.

Given that the best way to improve cycling safety is to increase the number of cyclists on the road and decrease the number of short car journeys, I'd love to see a video from the RSA that advocated cycling as a healthy, fun, and green mode of transport rather than constantly focusing on risk factors. No wonder most non-cyclists consider cycling dangerous as all the media puts out is information about the dangers of cycling and news about the fatalities.

Saw a thing on bookface the other day, Get the kids to count the number of cyclists you pass while in the car, that way they look out for them as a kid and hopefully that stays with you when you begin driving". To me it makes sense!

neris

not ireland but just spotted this on twitter

https://twitter.com/AndyRolfe65/status/773804492685017088

REBELSAFC

neris wrote: »

not ireland but just spotted this on twitter

https://twitter.com/AndyRolfe65/status/773804492685017088

Very marginal gains there;)

Bloggsie

Saw a thing on bookface the other day, Get the kids to count the number of cyclists you pass while in the car, that way they look out for them as a kid and hopefully that stays with you when you begin driving". To me it makes sense!

magicbastarder

Bloggsie wrote: »

Saw a thing on bookface the other day, Get the kids to count the number of cyclists who pass you while in the car, that way they look out for them as a kid and hopefully that stays with you when you begin driving". To me it makes sense!

FYP

inforfun

ronoc wrote: »

Cycling on Irish roads is largely safe and for the most part motorists are considerate and give plenty of room.

I don't agree with your pessimistic outlook on cycling on Irish roads at all.

But I do a agree we should follow Hollands lead and make cycling a priority in Town centers and introduce something like strict liability.

Better follow Hollands idea to separate traffic when and wherever possible first.
Separate roads for bicycles and cars is the best way to stop getting annoyed at each other.

I am Dutch, cycled my entire youth and then some when i still lived in Holland. Did 100Km+ tours, cycled to school, later work and for fun.
Moved to Ireland and i gave up really quick. Too many clueless morons of both kinds on the roads.

It has been a while but as a kid i did actually get "traffic lessons" in school. Then of course i had to take a theoretical exam for my drivers license and a practical exam after a professional driving instructor thought i was ready for it, before i was allowed to get in a car and drive it.


Here some family member who got a full drivers license can teach you how to drive. That person might be one of those, what was it.... 400.000, that at 1 point just got their license without ever doing an exam in order to cut the waiting time for exams.

beauf

inforfun wrote: »

...That person might be one of those, what was it.... 400.000, that at 1 point just got their license without ever doing an exam in order to cut the waiting time for exams.

That keeps coming up. Those people will have been driving for 35 yrs now. The youngest will be 54. Most of the bad driving and bad habits, aggressive driving, I see is not from this age group.

I expect if you forced them all to sit a test it would have negligible impact.

inforfun

beauf wrote: »

That keeps coming up. Those people will have been driving for 35 yrs now. The youngest will be 54. Most of the bad driving and bad habits, aggressive driving, I see is not from this age group.

I expect if you forced them all to sit a test it would have negligible impact.

The very moment i decided to get rid of my bicycle here was when someone that age bracket you mention tried to take a left corner while i was going straight on and said he was right because i was on a bicycle.... It was the final straw.
Mind you, that is over 10 yeas ago. So how many people did that fool teach how to drive since?

Jawgap

Happy_Harry wrote: »

No- I don't know about Dublin, but outside Dublin, definitely not.

The infrastructure in Ireland is not designed for cyclists, it is designed (at best) for cars.

If you want to encourage cycling, the only way to make it safer is to invest in cycle lanes, separated from the main road. I was cycling everywhere in Holland since I was 4. Never had an accident other than falling off my bike due to ice or my own fault.
I would not dream of getting on a bike here. I value my life.

How can it be safe, if you have cyclists on narrow-ish roads at 20km/h with cars/HGVs at 100 km/h. It simply doesn't go together, especially since drivers are not used to cyclists. It will take a long time to get driver behavior changed, and even then, if everyone making a left turn would look over their shoulder to spot a cyclist , as I still do, this will not be a safe country for cyclists.

My daughter does have a bike, but the the only place she will be cycling is on the lane in front of my house with less than 5 cars a day, and even there I don't like it. She can moan all she likes, I will drive her wherever she wants/needs to go, but she will never be cycling on the roads until there are cycle lanes.

More like road layouts were designed for horses and foot traffic.

Plus outside motorways and N roads no one should be doing 100 km/hr no matter how 'good' they perceive the road to be.

Rezident

Not safe in Dublin anyway. Yet another car cut me off today, less than half an hour ago when I was cycling at speed in the cycle lane. Just cuts me off to turn left, could have been absolutely fatal, except I expect it now and instinctively slow down when a car accelerates past me, many would not. Didn't even indicate. Happens probably once a week or fortnight at least.

I am lucky I got my bike serviced a few weeks ago and my disc brakes are very good now, I hadn't noticed how much they had slowly worsened over the last few months until I got the service, possible saved me a nasty crash.

Some drivers will risk hitting a cyclist to get there five seconds quicker. That's what your life is worth to some of them. They might get away with it 99% of the time, but that other 1%, you're gone.

Chuchote

I was cycling on Tivoli Avenue and dodging the many seams, patches and holes, and a car came straight at me, everyone in it shrieking "JESUS CHRIST" today - I assume they were normally bus passengers. Several roads around there - Wilfrid Road, Kenilworth Park, Leinster Road, for example - are truly dangerous for cyclists because you have to dodge around these rotten patches.

Wishbone Ash

inforfun wrote: »

....Here some family member who got a full drivers license can teach you how to drive. That person might be one of those, what was it.... 400.000, that at 1 point just got their license without ever doing an exam in order to cut the waiting time for exams.

This old chesnut is regularly trotted out! It was nowhere near 400,000. The licence was only given to those who were on a second provisional licence and who were already on the waiting list at a specific date which was 6 months prior to the announcement of the scheme (i.e. the Minister made an announcement in October xx that those on the waiting list on March xx were eligible). It is estimated that around 1% of current drivers were able to avail of this scheme and those would have to be over 56 years of age now at a minimum (17yrs+2yrs (2nd provisional) at time in 1981).

There are far more drivers out there who were driving pre 1963 when you could buy your licence at the post office but they present little threat either.

Those who sat and passed a test are a far bigger threat on our roads.

Jawgap

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

This old chesnut is regularly trotted out! It was nowhere near 400,000. The licence was only given to those who were on a second provisional licence and who were already on the waiting list at a specific date which was 6 months prior to the announcement of the scheme (i.e. the Minister made an announcement in October xx that those on the waiting list on March xx were eligible). It is estimated that around 1% of current drivers were able to avail of this scheme and those would have to be over 56 years of age now at a minimum (17yrs+2yrs (2nd provisional) at time in 1981).

There are far more drivers out there who were driving pre 1963 when you could buy your licence at the post office but they present little threat either.

Those who sat and passed a test are a far bigger threat on our roads.

My mother was one who bought her licence and she's the best driver I know

Taught her brothers and sisters, my Dad and all her kids to drive.

Now we have theory tests et and it seems to me that if there has been an improvement in driving standards it's marginal at best - there's still plenty of younger drivers speeding, loads of lane hogging, undertaking etc

bazermc

The top three threads in 410 as I write this are; this one, cyclist killed in Dublin and Dublin Bus Strike take care.

Says it all really.