Are Ireland's roads safe for cyclists?

The Bishop Basher

Chuchote wrote: »

It should be illegal to reverse out of a driveway... I never did it again after..

How do you deal with driveways then

If you're worried about kids behind you when reversing out, how do you know there's no kids when you're reversing in ? Or do you just avoid driveways altogether ?

A little bit of common sense and observation is all that's needed surely..

CramCycle

Chuchote wrote: »

It should be illegal to reverse out of a driveway.

I never did it again after the time I was snailing sloooowly out when a mammy came racing behind the car. I stood on the brakes - and saw her leading a tiny toddler out the other side; the child was too small to be seen through a back window, but would have been visible over a bonnet.

It is illegal to reverse out of a drive way onto a roadway as it stands. You should always either reverse into the driveway or turn around within the driveway area.

CramCycle

Swanner wrote: »

How do you deal with driveways then

If you're worried about kids behind you when reversing out, how do you know there's no kids when you're reversing in ? Or do you just avoid driveways altogether ?

A little bit of common sense and observation is all that's needed surely..

Obviously there are reasonable practicalities that the law takes no account for but that's the way it stands, not necessarily how it operates. I reverse into my driveway, it annoys my partner who sees it as a time waste (even though it is quicker when leaving in the morning).

cdaly_

Swanner wrote: »

How do you deal with driveways then

If you're worried about kids behind you when reversing out, how do you know there's no kids when you're reversing in ? Or do you just avoid driveways altogether ?

A little bit of common sense and observation is all that's needed surely..

Presumably, when reversing into a driveway, you have just pulled up and were checking for kids on the footpath etc. You have a view along the road and footpath while pulling up and while waiting.

OTOH, when reversing out of the driveway, you have presumably just come from the house, have not checked the footpath and what small child is playing under your garden wall and have just got into the car and started moving. Add to that the generally wedge shape of car bodies and you have a much more restricted view behind the car than in front. Any child under about 12 years of age will not show in your rear window.

boardbeer

Swanner wrote: »

How do you deal with driveways then

Reversing out of a driveway across a pavement, there is more risk of someone using the pavement crossing your path, unnoticed (e.g., a micro-scooter travelling at speed).

steamengine

greenspurs wrote: »

I went out to do a handy 50k last Saturday. Beautiful sunny morning.
I had 3 incidents during the journey ! 2 on roundabouts ( 1 big roundabout , 1 medium sized)
I was on the left hand lane to exit the big roundabout , arm up to indicate I was taking the 2nd exit, and saw a car coming up on the inside (my right hand side) , he overtook me, and then flew in in front of me while taking the exit! Pointless ! To gain a few seconds....
Incident 2 - medium size roundabout near Sean Kelly Sports centre , I moved out to gain control of the single lane entry to the roundabout, and saw a white Smart car being driven up beside me. She kept squeezing up beside me ( less than a foot away) while we both reached the roundabout. she got in ahead of me while I braked , and then stopped at the roundabout...... I then started to question her driving 'skills' !
Then to top it off... cycling into my estate, Car reversing back into my path, onto the 'road' without looking, I could foresee what she was doing, and I had to stop and clip out. When she finally looked over her right shoulder and saw me standing there, I got the half wave and half smile thing ........ I didn't question her driving as it was a neighbours mother !!!!!
that's just on one handy 50km spin on the N24 !
The irony is that Carrick have produced two top professional cyclists, and it is quite bad cycling through it....

I find my (Halford's bought) bulb horn useful in such situations - so far all such reversing cars have stopped. Looks a bit odd on the bike but has been quite useful so far. Its about time cyclists made themselves heard and the ordinary tinkly bells don't cut it, even though they're a legal requirment.

Swanner

Swanner wrote: »

How do you deal with driveways then

If you're worried about kids behind you when reversing out, how do you know there's no kids when you're reversing in ? Or do you just avoid driveways altogether ?

A little bit of common sense and observation is all that's needed surely..

In general I think the rules of the road are pretty clear that reversing always takes place from the 'larger' road to the smaller, rather than the other way around. .

ThisRegard

Firedance wrote: »

I emailed my local garda station about this the other day, every morning since the schools are back parents parking in the cycle lane to drop their kids at an unofficial bus stop. I've no idea whether they will do anything about but might as well bring it to their attention as not..

Lemming wrote: »

All this talk of cycle lanes, etc. ... it's all moot. What is needed is traffic enforcement. Without that, the problem just gets moved a few hundred metres down the road as people will continue to do as they please whilst driving (or parking as the case may be in some cases).

Late to the party on this, but last year the school my daughter attends had the traffic corp come down for a days observation to see how they can manage the traffic better, school is in a rural setting.

The conclusion of the traffic corp? Every traffic law was being broken, even though they were parked up across the road observing everything. If you can't manage things with a big marked traffic corp car watching you, there's no hope for every other day of the week.

magicbastarder

cdaly_ wrote: »

OTOH, when reversing out of the driveway, you have presumably just come from the house, have not checked the footpath and what small child is playing under your garden wall and have just got into the car and started moving. Add to that the generally wedge shape of car bodies and you have a much more restricted view behind the car than in front. Any child under about 12 years of age will not show in your rear window.

Also, in most cars I suspect you're physically closer to the front than the back. So you don't have as much car to stick out on to the path before you can see the footpath. Plus, you might have hedges to deal with.

Chuchote

CramCycle wrote: »

It is illegal to reverse out of a drive way onto a roadway as it stands. You should always either reverse into the driveway or turn around within the driveway area.

It must be the most unenforced and unknown traffic law. Virtually all of my neighbours drive in and reverse out.

Firedance

ThisRegard wrote: »

Late to the party on this, but last year the school my daughter attends had the traffic corp come down for a days observation to see how they can manage the traffic better, school is in a rural setting.

The conclusion of the traffic corp? Every traffic law was being broken, even though they were parked up across the road observing everything. If you can't manage things with a big marked traffic corp car watching you, there's no hope for every other day of the week.

And what did they do about that? The crux of the issue really isn't it, people will continue to break laws as long as there are no consequences. I was standing at lights recently as a pedestrian, two Garda standing along side. Everyone crossed the road when it was clear of cars but the pedestrian light was still red, the two Garda went to do the same, I commented to them that if they're not prepared to lead by example why should any of us obey the rules of the road. They were younger than me by about 20 years and just looked sheepishly and shrugged their shoulders!

ThisRegard

Firedance wrote: »

And what did they do about that? The crux of the issue really isn't it, people will continue to break laws as long as there are no consequences.

That's what I asked, what was done? The school changed the layout of the small carpark to basically put in drop off areas, you drive in, drop the kid off, drive out the other side, with spaces reserved for school buses. Works well until you get someone at the top of the queue getting out and walking their kid to the door. But it's a case of if you build it, they will come, traffic close to school start time queues on the road, both directions, to get into the drop off area, which must be a pain in the arse if your business is nowhere near the school and you're passing.

Firedance wrote: »

I was standing at lights recently as a pedestrian, two Garda standing along side. Everyone crossed the road when it was clear of cars but the pedestrian light was still red, the two Garda went to do the same, I commented to them that if they're not prepared to lead by example why should any of us obey the rules of the road. They were younger than me by about 20 years and just looked sheepishly and shrugged their shoulders!

I was crossing over the NCR at Stoneybatter one Saturday afternoon, I was on one side, a garda car the other. We got our green light but some pleb went through the red light cutting me off (more so than the garda as the car was closer to me). I looked at the garda, they went to continue straight anyway, so I through up my arms in exasperation and only then did he decide to turn around and go after it.

In fairness about crossing against a red pedestrian light when it's red, I'd do that every time. The vast majority of the population would.

Chuchote wrote: »

It must be the most unenforced and unknown traffic law. Virtually all of my neighbours drive in and reverse out.

Doe is not just apply to major roads rather than blanket rule against reversing onto any road?

Firedance

Chuchote wrote: »

It must be the most unenforced and unknown traffic law. Virtually all of my neighbours drive in and reverse out.

I must admit to not knowing this and I always drive into my driveway - no more!

CramCycle

Chuchote wrote: »

It must be the most unenforced and unknown traffic law. Virtually all of my neighbours drive in and reverse out.

Like most laws, when there are no serious consequences occurring on a regular or noticeable basis, it won't be enforced. It is only ever learned by a driver when they hit someone and when it gets to court/settlement, they have to cough up. I learned it from here, my father and my old boss. Really should be mentioned in the driving test as it applies to muppets reversing blindly from laneways onto R and N roads.

There was the case of the lady who last year not only reversed out of her driveway but hit someone, and had a frosted over rear window. Claimed she thought it was a snowball from kids in the area or something and drove off.

People will always revert to convenience in absence of enforcement or a more convenient alternative. Reversing into your drive is not inconvenient, it just seems to be. When you think about the reversing out you have to do, if you don't. Most people do not realise until you let them know though.

Carawaystick

CramCycle wrote: »

There was the case of the lady who last year not only reversed out of her driveway but hit someone, and had a frosted over rear window. Claimed she thought it was a snowball from kids in the area or something and drove off.

I presume she wasn't convicted of dangerous driving or anything, because sher this is Ireland.

Chuchote

ThisRegard wrote: »

In fairness about crossing against a red pedestrian light when it's red, I'd do that every time. The vast majority of the population would.

And for why? Because the settings on the pedestrian lights are lunatic. People are much more likely to wait on those ones that have a visible countdown from 30 seconds.

On one dangerous five-way crossroads local to me, the pedestrian lights don't go green for 2.5 minutes. Then they go green for perhaps 10 seconds and linger on orange for ages while the old crocks hobble desperately across.

Wishbone Ash

ThisRegard wrote: »

.....Doe is not just apply to major roads rather than blanket rule against reversing onto any road?

AFAIK it applies to reversing onto a road of greater importance than the road you're on. In a driving test, the reversing manoeuvre is always carried out from a major road to a minor road - otherwise it would be illegal.

What always puzzles me is parking slots designed at an angle to allow front first parking. Swords main street is an example. Surely it must be illegal to reverse out of these.

Chuchote

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

AFAIK it applies to reversing onto a road of greater importance than the road you're on. In a driving test, the reversing manoeuvre is always carried out from a major road to a minor road - otherwise it would be illegal.

What always puzzles me is parking slots designed at an angle to allow front first parking. Swords main street is an example. Surely it must be illegal to reverse out of these.

But if they're diagonal, you can normally see behind you?

cython

Chuchote wrote: »

But if they're diagonal, you can normally see behind you?

There are still similar issues of visibility as have been outlined for reversing out of a driveway though, especially if you find high-sided vehicles on either side. Just because you can see a bit more in the direction you're reversing out doesn't mean you can see enough.

That being said, it may be arguable from a legal perspective that since the spaces are on the road(side), you are not reversing onto the road to begin with, whereas a driveway is most certainly off the road.

Karendaisy1

cyclists are not safe for Irish roads. Many are poorly visible and intolerant of motorists.

Wishbone Ash

Chuchote wrote: »

But if they're diagonal, you can normally see behind you?

Difficult in a vehicle with panel sides and no rear windows. It's either illegal or not regardless of the type of vehicle.

CramCycle

Karendaisy1 wrote: »

cyclists are not safe for Irish roads. Many are poorly visible and intolerant of motorists.

MOD VOICE: site banned for other issues. Do not bother responding to this post.

Chuchote

cython wrote: »

There are still similar issues of visibility as have been outlined for reversing out of a driveway though, especially if you find high-sided vehicles on either side. Just because you can see a bit more in the direction you're reversing out doesn't mean you can see enough.

That being said, it may be arguable from a legal perspective that since the spaces are on the road(side), you are not reversing onto the road to begin with, whereas a driveway is most certainly off the road.

I suppose this kind of parking just seems like the norm to me, having lived in the US, where it's quite usual, as a child.

ThisRegard

When I lived in America a lot of carparks had signs telling you to park head in only, otherwise you'd be booted. I guessed it might be to do with keeping the flow of traffic moving around the carpark but never really understood it. It wasn't just in carparks that had angled bays either, which might be more understandable.

Edit here's someone discussing their ticket they got for reversing into a straight bay, plenty of similar complaints on the internet, motorbikes get ticketed too for it which just seems bizarre.
http://forum.freeadvice.com/parking-tickets-non-moving-violations-44/head-only-parking-ticket-parking-lot-542205.html

tomasrojo

I've always been under the impression that it is illegal to reverse a car out onto a main road. It's a pretty bad idea, even if not.

Angled parking used to be the parking outside Kilmainham Gaol. Think it still is. That's definitely reversing out into a main road, and a very busy one too. Also involves reversing into a two-way cycle lane too, if the vehicles reverses quickly, or is long.

ThisRegard

There's a place or two I know of with angled parking. But you get clowns reverse into the spaces, perpendicular to the footpath, meaning they're taking up more than one space. That, and it's more awkward to actually try reverse in.

tomasrojo

Oh yeah, driving into angled parking might well be the best way, and it seems to be the intended way. But it's a terrible parking arrangement for outside Kilmainham Gaol.

Carawaystick

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

AFAIK it applies to reversing onto a road of greater importance than the road you're on. In a driving test, the reversing manoeuvre is always carried out from a major road to a minor road - otherwise it would be illegal.

I remember seeing some definition of a road as being from building to building, including paths, grass etc in one of the road traffic acts, so nose in parking won't have you reversing from a minor road to a major one, it's the same road.

There's lots of exceptions to the road traffic acts referring to entry/exit to a premises, so I assume these aren't counted as minor roads.

Not that reversing out is safe, but it might be legal.

Chuchote

By the way, according to a letter in The Irish Times today, taxis only have the right to use bus lanes when they're carrying passengers! I never knew this!

ThisRegard

Is it not when they're on a call, so they can claim they're on their way to collect a passenger when driving an empty car in the bus lane?