Gaeltacht man leaves job after being told not to speak Irish

NikoTopps

Shenshen wrote: »

There are areas in Germany where Sorbian or Frisian is the language children would grow up with.
Are you going to argue that German is therefore not the native language of Germany?

Unless those are among the official languages of the country then no. Irish, however, is an official language in this country and our native language.

maudgonner

NikoTopps wrote: »

Really? You've never been on public transport? Flicked passed TG4? Watched the start of the Eurovision even?!!

Funnily enough I've heard Irish being spoken on public transport... in Boston.

Very strange experience being on the subway there and listening in on a conversation that they clearly expected nobody else to be able to understand :pac:

Noveight

RE yer man getting fired, I don't really see a problem. He wasn't following company policy and refused to comply. Good luck to him. Plenty more opportunities to use the cúpla focal if he wants to.

CaePae wrote: »

The Irish language has nothing to do with Irishness and never did, its the language of backward sheep farmers...

The single most nonsensical post I have ever seen on AH.

mcmoustache

Pocaide wrote: »

What sense of entitlement?

Where I'm from, pocaidí come from camus/rosmuc.

Sorry, couldn't resist. You could be from kerry for all i know. Lots of pucs there.

In this particular case, I have no issue. A private business should be able to enforce their own rules. This guy resigned, out of principal, so I think it's fair enough. If a business owner wants their staff to wear clown suits and sing to their customers, that's fine with me. It's their business.

What's bugging me in this thread is that there's a huge hostility to people who speak Irish. I'm from the west and was raised in the language. It's also the language of business back home. People actually speak the language and they're not just being contrary.

I work with people from home and we speak Irish. We grew up together speaking that way and when speaking to each other about matters that are between ourselves, we speak Irish. In meetings and in other group situations, we speak English. It's the same as Spaniards interacting in any IT company.

What this thread has shown is that there is an irrational hatred of Irish speakers here. Most people don't even understand that it's a language that people had before even starting school.

I'm a gaeilgeor. I don't think the rest of you should be forced to learn Irish for a university place. I don't think people should be able to delay legal proceedings because they insist on doing things through Irish. But I should be allowed speak my own fúcking language in my own fúcking country with other Irish speakers.

feargale

quote="feargale;100982931"] Describing Irish or English as Ireland's native language is equal to calling Ireland a Catholic or a Protestant country. It is a country with a number of both Catholics and Protestants.[/quote]

psinno wrote: »

In practice it it more like calling Ireland a muslim country or a christian country.

Or a pedantic, hair splitting country. Thank you.

mcmoustache

For the record, Ireland is an English speaking country.

But I think that people should be allowed speak Irish to each other. We're not looking for Sharia law or to steal your copper ffs.

Harvey Normal

CaePae wrote: »

I am an English speaking Irishman, much like every other Irish man. The Irish language has nothing to do with Irishness and never did, its the language of backward sheep farmers, that has nothing to do with my identity.

Are you sure that the Irish language "never did" have anything to do with irishness? Do you think it was invented in the 19C like you think Irish names were invented in the 19C. Do you have a secret history book unbeknown to the rest of us.

mcmoustache

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Are you sure that the Irish language "never did" have anything to do with irishness? Do you think it was invented in the 19C like you think Irish names were invented in the 19C. Do you have a secret history book unbeknown to the rest of us.

Look at her posting history. She's a bee in her bonnet about the language.

Harvey Normal

mcmoustache wrote: »

Where I'm from, pocaidí come from camus/rosmuc.

Sorry, couldn't resist. You could be from kerry for all i know. Lots of pucs there.

In this particular case, I have no issue. A private business should be able to enforce their own rules. This guy resigned, out of principal, so I think it's fair enough. If a business owner wants their staff to wear clown suits and sing to their customers, that's fine with me. It's their business.

What's bugging me in this thread is that there's a huge hostility to people who speak Irish. I'm from the west and was raised in the language. It's also the language of business back home. People actually speak the language and they're not just being contrary.

I work with people from home and we speak Irish. We grew up together speaking that way and when speaking to each other about matters that are between ourselves, we speak Irish. In meetings and in other group situations, we speak English. It's the same as Spaniards interacting in any IT company.

What this thread has shown is that there is an irrational hatred of Irish speakers here. Most people don't even understand that it's a language that people had before even starting school.

I'm a gaeilgeor. I don't think the rest of you should be forced to learn Irish for a university place. I don't think people should be able to delay legal proceedings because they insist on doing things through Irish. But I should be allowed speak my own fúcking language in my own fúcking country with other Irish speakers.

Your last sentence is evidence that whatever was true in the 1950's, the real liberals are now Irish speakers and not the intolerant English speakers with this weird hostility not just to the language as taught in schools, or the requirements to need it for university, but it's very existence. In fact I've never met or encountered online a gaelgoir who wanted English to disappear entirely, but many English speakers (online at least, but that might be just because of the anonymity ) who want Irish to disappear.

ProudDUB

mcmoustache wrote: »

Where I'm from, pocaidí come from camus/rosmuc.

Sorry, couldn't resist. You could be from kerry for all i know. Lots of pucs there.

In this particular case, I have no issue. A private business should be able to enforce their own rules. This guy resigned, out of principal, so I think it's fair enough. If a business owner wants their staff to wear clown suits and sing to their customers, that's fine with me. It's their business.

What's bugging me in this thread is that there's a huge hostility to people who speak Irish. I'm from the west and was raised in the language. It's also the language of business back home. People actually speak the language and they're not just being contrary.

I work with people from home and we speak Irish. We grew up together speaking that way and when speaking to each other about matters that are between ourselves, we speak Irish. In meetings and in other group situations, we speak English. It's the same as Spaniards interacting in any IT company.

What this thread has shown is that there is an irrational hatred of Irish speakers here. Most people don't even understand that it's a language that people had before even starting school.

I'm a gaeilgeor. I don't think the rest of you should be forced to learn Irish for a university place. I don't think people should be able to delay legal proceedings because they insist on doing things through Irish. But I should be allowed speak my own fúcking language in my own fúcking country with other Irish speakers.

The person who signs your pay check, is the one who decides what fcuking language you speak in your own fcuking country, while you are employed on their premises. If you don't want to abide by their rules, then go work else where. Just as the Boards mods here (on behalf of the owners) dictate what language can and can not be spoken on here. It is their website, so we either abide by their rules, or we can shag off.

You were willing to edit the spelling of a cuss word, to get your post in under the radar of the Boards Naughty Word Checker. So, surely you can appreciate the irony of your being outraged over restrictions being placed on how you choose to express yourself ?

Jmccoy1

Think what you will of the Irish language, it's your right to speak it or not. However always remember that Article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (The Irish Constitution) recognises the Irish language to be the first official language of the state.

"The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
The English language is recognised as a second official language.
Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof."

Further to that Article 40.6.1 grants a freedom of expression and also a freedom of association.

No employer in this state has a right to ignore the rights of citizens under our constitution, and certainly can't forbid an employee speaking the states official language. I'd be confident that this guy would succeed in bringing a case of constructive dismissal against his ex-employer.

feargale

Here are some of your previous posts, CaePae:

CaePae wrote: »

Weather or not you think such a referendum would deliver a United Ireland, has the attitude of the southern political class changed?

CaePae wrote: »

Well, for my part, I would absoutley ban people from using Irish. And the Unionists do not speak Scots-Gaelic, some of them speak Ulster Scots which has nothing to do with Gaelic. The Unionists are far to sensible to waste their time on useless things like Gaelic.

CaePae wrote: »

A rational assessment of its lack of utility, resentment at being forced to waste my time on it for years (until I finally decided enough was enough) and an aprecitation that a small clique is using it to line their own pockets at our expence and damaging the country in the process.

CaePae wrote: »

Yeah, sure you do. Irish is such a living language that it need to be forced on the children of the nation to survive. P
The English language is a vital partof who we are, the Irish language is an irrelevant anachronism that has nothing to do with modern Ireland, its a pitty that some people have a hard time accepting that.

CaePae wrote: »

Nothing Merkel and co can do, there is no way to throw a country out, only the country itself can apply to leave. As for disregarding the vote, they can if they want to, legally it was just a glorified opinion poll. Westminster is soverighn in the UK, not the people.

CaePae wrote: »

He wrote in English. He also made a few rambeling scribbles in Irish for the sake of a few grants.

CaePae wrote: »

Well lets see, billions of euros wasted every year, our childrens education compromised by being forcefed a useless dead language, not to mention those poor souls who are educated (I use the term loosely) in Irish. It is a wast of time, a drain on our economey, it makes us a laughing stock in Europe when we insist on inflicting this joke of a language on the EU. Its a waste of time and money. It is harmful to us as a people.

CaePae wrote: »

Exactly, Irish speakers have BILLIONS of tax payers money wasted on them every year. They get gold plated state services, jobs for life, a seperate school system, documents translated into their language that nobody even reads and what do English speakers get? The bill!

CaePae wrote: »

It's such a pitty that Prime Minister Kenny won't stand up for these kids and put an end to the abuse. Failing to ban Irish from our schools will be this generations biggest shame in years to come, as the laundries have become to the previous generation.

CaePae wrote: »

The state compulsion system should be turned on its head. Instead of forcing people to learn a dead language, the fools who insist on forcing it down our throats should be compelled to cease and disist.
I mean, imagine forcing a US multinational to use Irish in Ireland, the mind boggels.

CaePae wrote: »

I absoutly agree with you, educating children through Irish is essentially the same thing as raping them.
It should be completely illegal to abuse children this way, all Irish medium schools should be banned, once and for all.

CaePae wrote: »

The Orange Order are a beakon of sanity when it comes to the Irish Language. Why should Irish speakers have any rights? The OO are completly justified in their efforts to enusre that not even an inch is given in to demands by "former" terrorists to allow the use of Irish in the north.

CaePae wrote: »

"Native speaker" of Irish? They're as rare as a nun in a bakini. I would be supprised is we have a 'native' on our hands. I doubt there's much wifi to be had in the caves of Conamara anyway.

CaePae wrote: »

Not only is it costing us money, its damaging our reputation in Europe. Leaders in other countries have been openly critising us for the stupidity of insisting that Irish be given the same status as English and French in the EU

CaePae wrote: »

That's more or less cart blanch for the Irish Language Lobbys gravy train to continue. Engilsh will be the dominant language regardless, that is no reason to allow the gailgoers to leach taxpayers money to pad their nests.

CaePae wrote: »

I received an infraction from Tombi! in after hours for 'trolling about Irish'. I don't think this infraction is warrented.

And finally, CaePae:

CaePae wrote: »

the greatest gift the British ever gave us some of us was their language.

FYP

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Like many posters have said, unless the customers are stragglers from Plantation times, I'd imagine business would be made more favorable by reasonable use of the Irish language. Obviously, if customers are speaking English to you, you respond in kind. The employee in question was having the bants with a fellow native Irish-speaker; what nationality of person would begrudge that rare occurrence!?

It's going to be a lot worse for business given the enormous backlash...

Peregrine wrote:

Here's a bit of irony: this is an English-language forum. Either post in English or provide an English translation.

I assumed anyone who cared enough would Google it, but fair enough - I'll edit with the Google translation. It's pretty galling that "boards.ie" is strict on that. Can you point me to the clause in the rules which says posts can't be in Irish? And I'm sure you understand my use of it, given the context.

Grayson

Kairo Scruffy Wildflower wrote: »

Like many posters have said, unless the customers are stragglers from Plantation times, I'd imagine business would be made more favorable by reasonable use of the Irish language. Obviously, if customers are speaking English to you, you respond in kind. The employee in question was having the bants with a fellow native Irish-speaker; what nationality of person would begrudge that rare occurrence!?

It's going to be a lot worse for business given the enormous backlash...

I spent my 20's working in retail. I was in the midlands, Dublin and Kildare. I never once had someone approach me speaking Irish. I've never encountered it in my personal life either. I have heard people in college speaking it but they were both Irish language students and standing outside the Irish room. I'm saying this because I'd imagine you'd have to go out of the way and try to initiate a conversation in Irish to get a response in Irish and it would involve a lot of negative responses.

I have worked in a multinational that had it's EU headquarters here. People spoke loads of languages but everyone spoke English if there was any kind of language difficulties. For example the french girls that sat opposite me would chat in English to each other if I was there. It's only polite. If you start speaking a language that others present don't understand then you are deliberately excluding them from the conversation and that's rude.

Grayson

Kairo Scruffy Wildflower wrote: »

I assumed anyone who cared enough would Google it, but fair enough - I'll edit with the Google translation. It's pretty galling that "boards.ie" is strict on that. Can you point me to the clause in the rules which says posts can't be in Irish? And I'm sure you understand my use of it, given the context.

فأنت طيب مع الناس يستجيب لك في لغة مختلفة في كل مرة .

Do you see my point?

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Grayson wrote: »

فأنت طيب مع الناس يستجيب لك في لغة مختلفة في كل مرة .

Do you see my point?

Esperanto

Laŭvorte faradis ekrano ekprenas kaj traduki respondo en malpli ol minuto

How many of the population purport to be able to speak Irish again? So surely the others can just scroll by (or if they feel they're being offended, they can do a quick translation).

It's life reflecting life up in heeeeere.

Grayson wrote: »

I spent my 20's working in retail. I was in the midlands, Dublin and Kildare. I never once had someone approach me speaking Irish. I've never encountered it in my personal life either. I have heard people in college speaking it but they were both Irish language students and standing outside the Irish room. I'm saying this because I'd imagine you'd have to go out of the way and try to initiate a conversation in Irish to get a response in Irish and it would involve a lot of negative responses.

But maybe it would be nice if people were MORE comfortable trying to speak it; NOT less! Don't you see the circularity of your logic? "You'd get more negative responses than positive if you tried" - that's because it's currently a feared language; bringing it into the mainstream would make people more inclined to give it a go.

Where did the Irish language touch you?

Grayson

Kairo Scruffy Wildflower wrote: »

Esperanto

Laŭvorte faradis ekrano ekprenas kaj traduki respondo en malpli ol minuto

How many of the population purport to be able to speak Irish again? So surely the others can just scroll by (or if they feel they're being offended, they can do a quick translation).

It's life reflecting life up in heeeeere.

Is Klingon up next?

riffmongous

ProudDUB wrote: »

The person who signs your pay check, is the one who decides what fcuking language you speak in your own fcuking country, while you are employed on their premises. If you don't want to abide by their rules, then go work else where. Just as the Boards mods here (on behalf of the owners) dictate what language can and can not be spoken on here. It is their website, so we either abide by their rules, or we can shag off.

It's actually not so straightforward, at least in the UK it's possible to sue the employer for direct or indirect racial discrimination if they try to ban people from speaking a language. (According to Google, outcome varies)

Donald Trump

CaePae wrote: »

The The Flying Enterprise bar in Cork City gave a young man from the Gaeltacht his P45 as a result of speaking in Irish while at work. The young man, Cormac Ó Bric from west Kerry had been working in the bar for a number of months. He regularly spoke Irish to another Kerry Gaeltacht native who worked in the bar and with other staff members who also spoke Irish as well as to customers who wished to use Irish from time to time.

The managment of the bar took exception to this and informed Cormac that the bar was an "English-speaking business" and that the use of Irish was not permitted. The owner of the business insisted in the opporation of a language code "because it is a hospitality business". The owner claims that a number of complaints had been received from customers who were "unconfortable" due to the use of Irish by staff.

The young man refused to accept the ban on speaking Irish and was fired as a result.



Personally: I think its about time people start cracking down on the use of Irish in public. That might teach the Irish Languag Taliban that their nonsence wont be tolorated any more. Imagine how awful it must be for tourists to come to an Irish city and hear people speaking Irish in places of business. It should not be left to a few couragous business owners to stand up to this disgraceful behaviour, speaking Irish at work should be banned outright, especially in the hospitality indurstry.

Mod:
http://tuairisc.ie/this-is-an-english-speaking-business-oibri-beair-eirithe-as-a-phost-i-gcorcaigh-tar-eis-rabhadh-a-fhail-gan-gaeilge-a-labhairt/

Translation:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=100978658#post100978658

Donald Trump

Did you know that oul' Paddy could speak Chinese?

Grayson

Donald Trump wrote: »

Except you're pointing out spelling mistakes. The op's post was about speaking. Since irony involves the literal opposite it would be ironic if the OP was mispronouncing english words but not if he's misspelling the words.

Donald Trump

Grayson wrote: »

Except you're pointing out spelling mistakes. The op's post was about speaking. Since irony involves the literal opposite it would be ironic if the OP was mispronouncing english words but not if he's misspelling the words.

Ah-ha! Double irony :P

You know that most things in that song aren't ironic?

Ask Ed Byrne if you don't believe me. He made a feckin' career out of no discernible talent after noticing that very fact.

evolving_doors

Grayson wrote: »

Is Klingon up next?

I just did sign language there... did yee's feel uncomfortable.

old_aussie

Noveight wrote: »

Good luck to him. Plenty more opportunities to use the cúpla focal if he wants to.

G'day mate, how they hang'n today, can ya speak English to me on this native English speaking forum?

Shenshen

NikoTopps wrote: »

Unless those are among the official languages of the country then no. Irish, however, is an official language in this country and our native language.

Sorbian is an official langauge in Germany. Friesian is a recognised minority language.

So German is now not my native language, according to you?

Shenshen

Kairo Scruffy Wildflower wrote: »

Like many posters have said, unless the customers are stragglers from Plantation times, I'd imagine business would be made more favorable by reasonable use of the Irish language. Obviously, if customers are speaking English to you, you respond in kind. The employee in question was having the bants with a fellow native Irish-speaker; what nationality of person would begrudge that rare occurrence!?

It's going to be a lot worse for business given the enormous backlash...

My suspicion is that the customers who complained didn't realise that he was speaking Irish at all. They heard a language they didn't understand and assumed he was a foreigner.

I've got a colleague who is a native speaker and according to her, it happens quite frequently in public. She's been shouted at to go home to where she came from, f*cking foreigner, more than once.

Samaris

The people saying that one's "native" language isn't necessarily the language most closely associated with their country are correct although the phrasing is a bit unfortunate ("native" does sound like it should be that). I suspect the phrase came up where it was more unusual for one's first language to not be the language of their country and Ireland is a bit of an anomaly that way, as are several of the other Celtic languages. Welsh seems to be trotting along fine, mind, which when you think about it is bizarre given that it's probably the most closely bound to England over the longest period compared to Scotland and Ireland where the languages are dying out (or are at the least struggling).

If you're brought up in Ballyhack, but your Indonesian mother who doesn't have great English brings you up from babyhood speaking {insert Indonesian language here}, that is your native language, not Irish or English, but English may also be a native language if your Irish father speaks English to you constantly too. The points of what makes a native speaker for a given person seem to be as follows;

1. The individual acquired the language in early childhood.
2. The individual has intuitive knowledge of the language.
3. The individual is able to produce fluent, spontaneous discourse.
4. The individual is competent in communication.
5. The individual identifies with or is identified by a language community.
6. The individual has a dialect accent (including the official dialect).
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_language#Defining_.22native_speaker.22)

"Native language" seems to be used pretty interchangeably with "first language", and the two should probably be differentiated somehow, as imo, there should be a phrase for "the given language unique to your country of birth and upbringing that it is reasonably expected a native of said country would be exposed to" or something along those lines.

Under those guidelines, I'm covered by 1, 2, hmmm...maybe 5 and 6, but not the most important points of 3 and 4 I include 2 as I think most people in Ireland have a semi-instinctive knowledge of say, how Irish words are pronounced. We can see the name Caoilfhionn or Aoibhe and make a reasonable instinctive stab at "Keeflann" and "Eva", despite that both of those collections of random letters are totally at odds with all the rules of the language most of us speak daily and even if we're not fluent in Irish itself.

Edit: Can any polyglots tell me if they have as good/native an accent in their multiple languages, or is there one language where your accent is most natural? Wondering if point 6 allows for having more than one "native" language, or is it by definition a single thing?

If the story is accurate, it seems like madness on the part of the employer, who should obviously have told those who complained that the language is Irish and we live in Ireland. Indeed had it been a Polish staff member speaking to a Polish person in Polish, I don't see the problem with that either.

But if the employee didn't show up for work and resigned, then he kinda ended the issue. A real example of why he should have taken legal advice and would have been told to hang on and force the employer's hand.

Shenshen

Samaris wrote: »

Under those guidelines, I'm covered by 1, 2, hmmm...maybe 5 and 6, but not the most important points of 3 and 4 I include 2 as I think most people in Ireland have a semi-instinctive knowledge of say, how Irish words are pronounced. We can see the name Caoilfhionn or Aoibhe and make a reasonable instinctive stab at "Keeflann" and "Eva", despite that both of those collections of random letters are totally at odds with all the rules of the language most of us speak daily and even if we're not fluent in Irish itself.

I'm not convinced by the last point there - I'm basing that on the fact that whenever there's a baby born to a colleague in our office, and the email goes around announcing the name, there are never more than maybe 3 or 4 people out of the 70 Irish nationals working here who seem to know how that should be pronounced.
Always entirely befuddles us non-Irish.

Edit: Can any polyglots tell me if they have as good/native an accent in their multiple languages, or is there one language where your accent is most natural? Wondering if point 6 allows for having more than one "native" language, or is it by definition a single thing?

Oh, tricky - but yes, you will pick up an accent no matter what new language you learn, simply from exposure to native speakers.
It's usually not very perceptible to the people you pick the accent up from, but whenever I talk to Americans or Brits, I get told how Irish I sound.
When I speak French, I do so with a strong enough Quebecois accent, I've been told.

I would say that a fluent speaker without some kind of an accent would be a very odd thing.

Shenshen

Deleted User wrote: »

If the story is accurate, it seems like madness on the part of the employer, who should obviously have told those who complained that the language is Irish and we live in Ireland. Indeed had it been a Polish staff member speaking to a Polish person in Polish, I don't see the problem with that either.

But if the employee didn't show up for work and resigned, then he kinda ended the issue. A real example of why he should have taken legal advice and would have been told to hang on and force the employer's hand.

Well, the employer was quoted in the article saying that his workforce was multi-national. It can therefore be assumed that there may have been Polish workers who were given the same rules as the Irish-speaking lad.

conorhal

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Sounds a bit harsh and I'd say there's more to the story but that said, it's a hospitality business and if the owner did receive complaints from customers he's within his rights to fire the employee - especially as he ignored the warning he was given previously.

Oh you just know what kind of 'customer' was complaining though, one of those nobheads with a chip on their shoulder about their 5th class Irish teacher and a self loathing Irishman that hates the very sound of his own language, but probably bangs on about 'cultural diversity' and how wonderful it has made Ireland (without a hint of Irony).

This was no doubt some chippy c*** taking offence for the sake of it, a petty passive agressive cry-bully.

I hope the barman sues the pants off his employer. I'd love to see a case taken with the equality authority also.

conorhal

Shenshen wrote: »

My suspicion is that the customers who complained didn't realise that he was speaking Irish at all. They heard a language they didn't understand and assumed he was a foreigner.

I've got a colleague who is a native speaker and according to her, it happens quite frequently in public. She's been shouted at to go home to where she came from, f*cking foreigner, more than once.

One, that sounds more of an excuse than a suspicion.

Two, I'd say your friend has in that case probably had the pleasure of making some really stupid people painfully, cringeingly aware of their own stupidity, much to her justified satisfaction.

pickarooney

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Yes, native. English has been the most commonly spoken language in Ireland for almost 200 years. I think we can safely affirm that it is the native language of the country. Logic.

Countries don't have native languages. Individual people do.

Logic?

madbeanman

I support the employee.
I'm not here to argue because a lot of peeps in this forum are crazy aggressive so I'll just leave a story. It's kind of long, apologies.

So I studied French and Japanese in school and headed over to Japan three years ago getting a job in a local government office as a translator/interpreter.

The only other non-Japanese citizen in the building of 2000 people was a French guy who sat across from me. He hated English (unless he was trying to chat up girls) so we always conversed in French because when I arrived my French was stronger than my Japanese.

Our jobs had crazy busy and not so busy periods and on the not so busy periods we talked for long stretches at a time about anything and everything.

Our supervisor and the office accountant sat beside us. After a while I began to be annoyed by someone who I thought was accidentally bumping into my chair. It was the accountant.

Then it got more forceful. None of the Japanese staff believed me. Then he started elbowing me at the photocopier and trying to knock me off my chair. Eventually my sup saw what was happening and was horrified.

She asked him the reason (Japanese office politics meant neither I nor her could ask him to stop directly.)

It was because I was speaking French.
The head of my office said that if we were most comfortable speaking French we should do that and that he had no right to do with he did. We were the international division and most employees except him had second or third languages.

Recently I made contact with my sup and she told me about the accounting guy. He had been moved to an office in a rural town, a distinct demotion. There were no people in his office who spoke in 'foreign languages' anymore. However, he was now cutting the coats of his colleagues with scissors.

I guess it wasn't the foreign languages he hated after all.

Zxclnic

Brenden Drab Technologist wrote: »

I misread, thought it was dingle !

You mean 'An Daingean' of course.

Shenshen

conorhal wrote: »

One, that sounds more of an excuse than a suspicion.

Two, I'd say your friend has in that case probably had the pleasure of making some really stupid people painfully, cringeingly aware of their own stupidity, much to her justified satisfaction.

I can't say, personally I couldn't tell Irish from Tibetan if I heard it.
But given that every time there is an Irish language thread, people bring up the fact that many who learn it in school essentially learn a few sentences by heart, and that what people are taught in school has little to no resemblance to what would be spoken by a native speaker, plus the fact that the accents/dialects are so varied region from region, I would actually be more surprised if the people complaining had in fact realised that they were complaining about someone speaking Irish.

conorhal

Shenshen wrote: »

I can't say, personally I couldn't tell Irish from Tibetan if I heard it.
But given that every time there is an Irish language thread, people bring up the fact that many who learn it in school essentially learn a few sentences by heart, and that what people are taught in school has little to no resemblance to what would be spoken by a native speaker, plus the fact that the accents/dialects are so varied region from region, I would actually be more surprised if the people complaining had in fact realised that they were complaining about someone speaking Irish.

In that case I assume you're not Irish? If the complainant was I can assure you that they knew exactly what they were doing. There's a certian type of Irishman of whom it could be said, if they were African-American they would have been the first black man to join the Klan.

livedadream

Zxclnic wrote: »

You mean 'An Daingean' of course.

if we're going to be pedantic its daingean ui chuis :rolleyes:

P. Breathnach

ProudDUB wrote: »

The person who signs your pay check, is the one who decides what fcuking language you speak in your own fcuking country, while you are employed on their premises...

Any workplace rule should be reasonable.

One element of reasonableness is that the rule benefits the business.

If I went into a bar or restaurant or shop, and knew that a staff member had fluent Irish, and I chose to transact business tré mheán na Gaeilge, should I, or the staff member, be censured?

Extend it a bit. How about an English speaker visiting a gaeltacht business? Or how about a French diner in a restaurant anywhere in Ireland which has staff who speak French? How about Polish shoppers in branches of Aldi or Lidl?

Shenshen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Any workplace rule should be reasonable.

One element of reasonableness is that the rule benefits the business.

If I went into a bar or restaurant or shop, and knew that a staff member had fluent Irish, and I chose to transact business tré mheán na Gaeilge, should I, or the staff member, be censured?

Extend it a bit. How about an English speaker visiting a gaeltacht business? Or how about a French diner in a restaurant anywhere in Ireland which has staff who speak French? How about Polish shoppers in branches of Aldi or Lidl?

I think there's a difference between direct customer interaction, and interaction with a colleague while a customer is present.

Shenshen

conorhal wrote: »

In that case I assume you're not Irish? If the complainant was I can assure you that they knew exactly what they were doing. There's a certian type of Irishman of whom it could be said, if they were African-American they would have been the first black man to join the Klan.

I'm not, and I've no idea if the complainant was. Nor what the exact nature of the complaint actually was.

While I'm sure that there are people who would complain knowing full well what language was spoken, I would still maintain that a significant section of the Irish population would not necessarily have been able to tell. I'm simply taking the "benefit of the doubt" approach.

madbeanman

P. Breathnach wrote: »

ProudDUB wrote: »

The person who signs your pay check, is the one who decides what fcuking language you speak in your own fcuking country, while you are employed on their premises...

Extend it a bit. How about an English speaker visiting a gaeltacht business? Or how about a French diner in a restaurant anywhere in Ireland which has staff who speak French? How about Polish shoppers in branches of Aldi or Lidl?

I agree with all this .

I remember last week being in a local Lidl and the lady working on the till spoke one of the Eastern European languages and was laughing at/with the lady she was serving who was on the phone giving out to someone. The lady then got off the phone and the two enjoyed a joke in whatever language they shared.

And since I'm only back from Japan a month it warmed my heart because I know what it's like to be in a linguistic minority and I know that it can be tough when you can't communicate 100 percent perfectly all of the time. (Maybe the two are entirely bi-lingual but even if so the point stands I think)

For the life of me I can't understand how someone could complain about that. It seems heartless at best and xenophobic and bigoted at worst.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

old_aussie wrote: »

G'day mate, how they hang'n today, can ya speak English to me on this native English speaking forum?

This is where the "no Irish" rule is absolutely ridiculous. If you aren't familiar with Irish nomenclature then you're a craic-killer. The creativity of the Irish with the English language is daycent. All the feens and beyours putting their own spin on phrases and expressions. Sometimes in town I have to actually really think about what the wan at the counter is on about. The influence of the cúpla focail on our way of speaking is bound to permeate a message board of this variety; with loads of Irish people on it. If "old underscore aussie" doesn't understand what "cúpla focail" are, the onus is on him to look it up, as it's part of our way of speaking. If I told him "C'mere to me would ya feck off" that's a perfectly valid sentence. That sort of English is often as unintelligible to strainséirí as Irish is - moreso as there's no option for "Caaaark loiiiike" or "Bleedin' Dub" in Google translate.

Shenshen wrote: »

...a significant section of the Irish population would not necessarily have been able to tell. I'm simply taking the "benefit of the doubt" approach.

1.77m out of 4.58m claimed to speak it regularly at the last census. It's fair enough to guess that the other 60% learned it for a time at school and occasionally flick past TG4 or Ráidio na Gaeltachta, so I assume nobody would be completely baffled as to what language it is. You're actually not really giving them the benefit of the doubt there, what you're doing is inference and conjecture to support your ridiculous foregone conclusion; that Irish people consider Irish a foreign language.

P. Breathnach

Shenshen wrote: »

I think there's a difference between direct customer interaction, and interaction with a colleague while a customer is present.

There is some difference, but the boundaries are not clearcut.

Zxclnic

livedadream wrote: »

if we're going to be pedantic its daingean ui chuis :rolleyes:

Not if you're a local.:P

osarusan

I can easily see how a group of tourists (say a group of timid Japanese tourists with only a few sentences of English themselves) might be hesitant and a bit uncomfortable approaching a staff member who seems to be speaking only some language they cannot understand whatsoever.

I can also easily see how a non-Irish-speaking staff member would feel excluded also.

Without knowing how widespread the use of Irish was, the and the backgrounds of staff and customers, it's hard to say how reasonable/unreasonable the manager's policy was.

But some posters on here have gone on about freedom of expression and constitutional rights and so on, which I don't think are relevant here.

seamus

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm asking people here to pronouce my name in English, as the German pronounciation is just painfully hard for native English speakers.

Ah yes, but you're the one who asks. People aren't just doing it because they think they're entitled to.

My point is that in many scenarios in Ireland, people's names get deliberately "translated" into a different language to suit the agenda of the speaker, not because the name is hard to pronounce. You're literally changing someone's name, for no reason.

Name will get mauled, no matter where and when. No point getting upset about it.

I agree. Except when they decide to assign you a new name. It's one thing having someone struggling to pronounce your name and making a balls of it. It's another thing calling someone "Concubhar" when their name is "Conor". It's very disrespectful.

conorhal

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not, and I've no idea if the complainant was. Nor what the exact nature of the complaint actually was.

While I'm sure that there are people who would complain knowing full well what language was spoken, I would still maintain that a significant section of the Irish population would not necessarily have been able to tell. I'm simply taking the "benefit of the doubt" approach.

I barely speak a coupla focal myself and don't know anybody personally that does, but I assure you that there is no 'significant section of the population' that couldn't identify the language as not one hasn't at some point sung the national anthem, spent 12 years in school learning it and been exposed to it in the media.
That would be akin to me having spent half that time learning spanish in school but being unable to at least identify the language if sombody was speaking it.

CaePae

So now it seems they are trying to make a case that this was constructive dismissal. A solicitor called Antoin Delap said that refusing to accept the managers demands in this case, and failing to show up for work as a result of the demands made, may be seen by the courts as a resonable reaction by the employee.

A barrister, David McCarthy claimes that if the 'language code' was not specified in the contract of employment, then trying to force a Native Irish speaker not to speak Irish would be an unreasonable demand and as such the employer would not be entitled to enforce it on his staff.

Utter nonsence if you ask me. The employer was fully within his rightes to force his staff to speak only English at all times, regardless of what they or his customers wanted. The vicious campaign by the gaelgors to blacken his name should stop. The business has gotten over a hundred one starr reviews since yesterday. Disgraceful behaviour.

livedadream

Zxclnic wrote: »

Not if you're a local.:P

is bally ferriter local enough for ya?

90% of us locals voted a few years ago to have the brand name removed and the real name re instated.

its been called daingean ui chuis since the 11 hundreds...

dingle is a brand name,