Gaeltacht man leaves job after being told not to speak Irish

seamus

Harvey Normal wrote: »

This is conversations between staff (and with Irish speaking customers) not business. Are you sure about the legality of banning conversations in an official language?

Absolutely. Conversations between staff during business hours are by definition, business conversations. It's very well established that an employer can require all business to be carried out in a single language. In fact, it's essential - if employees could pick and choose the language they used, how would a business operate?

Could English be banned between staff in certain circumstances?

Yes, if it was a company that operated in a language that's not English. Obviously.

Riskymove

Laika123 wrote: »

Because he's the CEO of the KKK.

The KKK has a lot of black, gay, disabled and female staff does it?:pac:

Harvey Normal

seamus wrote: »

Fun Fact (OK, not fun at all): Proper names don't actually have a language, a name is a name and remains the same regardless of what language you're speaking.

The english-speaking news doesn't call the president of France "Frank Holland" and the French news doesn't try to translate "Enda Kenny" into French.

This weirdness of translating Irish peoples' names into a bastardised Gaelic is a consequence of attempting to force the Irish language upon people in school. It is in fact entirely wrong from every perspective to translate someone's name. Poor ettiquette and very disrespectful.

It's up there with Stalin.

seamus

CaePae wrote: »

Of course. Irish people always used the normal English spelling for their names. It was only in the 19th century that Gaelic Leaguers started trying to spell their names the way some bogger from Conamara would pronounce them. Thats where all these so called "Irish Names" came from.

Yeah, that's totally relevant to what we're talking about.

Because some people had their names forcibly changed in the 1800s, it's OK for teachers to forcibly change the names of their great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren back again.

800 years! Arrggh!

CaePae

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, that's totally relevant to what we're talking about.

800 years! Arrggh!

800 Years? What?

Harvey Normal

seamus wrote: »

Absolutely. Conversations between staff during business hours are by definition, business conversations. It's very well established that an employer can require all business to be carried out in a single language. In fact, it's essential - if employees could pick and choose the language they used, how would a business operate?
Yes, if it was a company that operated in a language that's not English. Obviously.

I looked into this using my handy amanuensis Mr Internet and it does look like there is precedent for the equality agency regecting a polish employee's discrimination claim in mcDonalds. The business language was English, tough. Official languages must be different though and we do have two de jure official languages.

That said the complaining customer, still a bollocks.

topmanamillion

The bar man that was sacked is in for a serious lob of money for unfair dismissal.
A decent lawyer will probably throw in discrimination.

There are doctors working in hospitals without a lick of English. That's a far bigger issue than a lad from West Kerry speaking Irish.

Shenshen

seamus wrote: »

Fun Fact (OK, not fun at all): Proper names don't actually have a language, a name is a name and remains the same regardless of what language you're speaking.

The english-speaking news doesn't call the president of France "Frank Holland" and the French news doesn't try to translate "Enda Kenny" into French.

This weirdness of translating Irish peoples' names into a bastardised Gaelic is a consequence of attempting to force the Irish language upon people in school. It is in fact entirely wrong from every perspective to translate someone's name. Poor ettiquette and very disrespectful.

Yes, how dare people translate names. After all, the name Seamus orginated on this island, right? And yet, the rest of the world decided to turn the name into all of the following :

Yakub, Yaqoob, Yaqub (Arabic), Hagop, Hakob (Armenian), Jakes (Basque), Jacob, James (Biblical), Iakobos (Biblical Greek), Yaakov (Biblical Hebrew), Iacobus (Biblical Latin), Yakov (Bulgarian), Jaume, Jaumet (Catalan), Jago (Cornish), Jakov, Jakob, Jakša (Croatian), Jakub (Czech), Jacob, Jakob, Ib, Jeppe (Danish), Jacob, Jacobus, Jakob, Sjaak, Cobus, Coos, Jaap, Kobe, Kobus, Koos (Dutch), Jacob, James, Coby, Jae, Jake, Jamey, Jay, Jaycob, Jaymes, Jeb, Jem, Jemmy, Jim, Jimi, Jimmie, Jimmy (English), Jaagup, Jakob, Jaak, Jaakob (Estonian), Jaakko, Jaakoppi (Finnish), Jacques (French), Iago (Galician), Iakob, Koba (Georgian), Jakob (German), Iakopa, Kimo (Hawaiian), Yaakov, Yakov, Akiba, Akiva (Hebrew), Jakab, Jákob (Hungarian), Giacobbe, Giacomo, Jacopo, Iacopo, Lapo (Italian), Jacob (Jewish), Iacomus, Jacobus (Late Roman), Jokūbas (Lithuanian), Jakov (Macedonian), Hemi (Maori), Jacob, Jakob (Norwegian), Jakub, Kuba (Polish), Iago, Jaime, Jacó (Portuguese), Yakov, Yasha (Russian), Seumas, Jamie (Scottish), Jakov (Serbian), Jakub (Slovak), Jakob, Jaka, Jaša (Slovene), Jacobo, Jaime, Yago (Spanish), Jacob, Jakob (Swedish), Yakup (Turkish), Yakiv (Ukrainian), Iago (Welsh), Kapel, Koppel, Yankel (Yiddish)...

And then some, I would imagine

I'm asking people here to pronouce my name in English, as the German pronounciation is just painfully hard for native English speakers.
People here constantly mispronounce Ms Merkel's first name.
Name will get mauled, no matter where and when. No point getting upset about it.

razorblunt

Maybe he was caught saying "Aw fúck" and was trying to play it off as "áfach" meaning however.

Harvey Normal

CaePae wrote: »

Of course. Irish people always used the normal English spelling for their names. It was only in the 19th century that Gaelic Leaguers started trying to spell their names the way some bogger from Conamara would pronounce them. Thats where all these so called "Irish Names" came from.

I'm pretty sure the 19C claim is not true. What's an English name anyway - James is Hebrew. John is Hebrew. Sean and Eoin are transliteration of two versions of John in fact, the latter is more French influenced - from the Norman era, which precedes the 19C.

And names are in fact translated by many cultures. (As better explained above)

Is there a translation of actual English unique names like Edward? (The Italians have one, you should have a word with any Edoardo you meet).

razorblunt

Shenshen wrote: »

Yes, how dare people translate names. After all, the name Seamus orginated on this island, right? And yet, the rest of the world decided to turn the name into all of the following :

Yakub, Yaqoob, Yaqub (Arabic), Hagop, Hakob (Armenian), Jakes (Basque), Jacob, James (Biblical), Iakobos (Biblical Greek), Yaakov (Biblical Hebrew), Iacobus (Biblical Latin), Yakov (Bulgarian), Jaume, Jaumet (Catalan), Jago (Cornish), Jakov, Jakob, Jakša (Croatian), Jakub (Czech), Jacob, Jakob, Ib, Jeppe (Danish), Jacob, Jacobus, Jakob, Sjaak, Cobus, Coos, Jaap, Kobe, Kobus, Koos (Dutch), Jacob, James, Coby, Jae, Jake, Jamey, Jay, Jaycob, Jaymes, Jeb, Jem, Jemmy, Jim, Jimi, Jimmie, Jimmy (English), Jaagup, Jakob, Jaak, Jaakob (Estonian), Jaakko, Jaakoppi (Finnish), Jacques (French), Iago (Galician), Iakob, Koba (Georgian), Jakob (German), Iakopa, Kimo (Hawaiian), Yaakov, Yakov, Akiba, Akiva (Hebrew), Jakab, Jákob (Hungarian), Giacobbe, Giacomo, Jacopo, Iacopo, Lapo (Italian), Jacob (Jewish), Iacomus, Jacobus (Late Roman), Jokūbas (Lithuanian), Jakov (Macedonian), Hemi (Maori), Jacob, Jakob (Norwegian), Jakub, Kuba (Polish), Iago, Jaime, Jacó (Portuguese), Yakov, Yasha (Russian), Seumas, Jamie (Scottish), Jakov (Serbian), Jakub (Slovak), Jakob, Jaka, Jaša (Slovene), Jacobo, Jaime, Yago (Spanish), Jacob, Jakob (Swedish), Yakup (Turkish), Yakiv (Ukrainian), Iago (Welsh), Kapel, Koppel, Yankel (Yiddish)...

And then some, I would imagine

I don't think that's his point.
Having Seamus as a birthname is one thing, being called James and then rocking up to school and being called "Seamus" for the next x amount of years of your life is another thing.

kylith

Alun wrote: »

I've worked in a number of international, multilingual situations and the golden rule has always been that the working language, whatever that is, usually English, is to be used at all times during business hours. I've personally witnessed situations in which two or more people have deliberately switched to another, shared, language to slag off other people in the group under the mistaken assumption that nobody around them understood it, so it does happen.

Same here. I worked somewhere with a fair few Polish people and they were told not to speak Polish during work hours. You abide by the rules of the job as long as they are reasonable and legal.

steddyeddy

seamus wrote: »

He didn't get the sack.

That's an entirely different thing.

He's been advised not to speak certain languages in public. That's nothing to do with his employer. That's because some people are idiots.

If this colleague of yours was in a meeting with you and another Muslim colleague and they sat there speaking Arabic for most of the time, would you shrug it off? Or would you feel really uncomfortable and excluded?

People who complain about feeling uncomfortable with languages in idiots in general IMHO.

There is a difference between being uncomfortable with a language and not liking when people are talking in a different language which excludes you.

If that happened to me I wouldn't feel comfortable but I wouldn't go down the line of banning Arabic from the work place.

How do you differentiate between customers who are bigoted against a language and those who feel like an employee isn't doing their job?

Harvey Normal

razorblunt wrote: »

I don't think that's his point.
Having Seamus as a birthname is one thing, being called James and then rocking up to school and being called "Seamus" for the next x amount of years of your life is another thing.

That tends to happen only in Irish class. It happens because it makes sense to translate the surname Kelly -> O'ceallaigh. So the whole name is translated. And in Ireland you can use either.

It must be very triggering though, for monoglots.

Shenshen

razorblunt wrote: »

I don't think that's his point.
Having Seamus as a birthname is one thing, being called James and then rocking up to school and being called "Seamus" for the next x amount of years of your life is another thing.

Colleague of mine is called Růžena, people have started calling her Ruby because they feel it's easier.

One of my parent's friend is called Prahmodh. He studied in the US in the 70s and was called Bob, because people frankly couldn't be bothered with weird names.

Yes, it's daft to do that, especially if the person whose name it is doesn't get to have a say. It's rude. But it's quite a common thing, wherever you go.

Come to think of it, I had a Latin teacher who translated all our last names into Latin and called us by those names - Aurum, Peregrinus, Mons Surgensis...

Pro Hoc Vice

Arghus wrote: »

There's clearly more to the story than just being fired for speaking Irish.

And if there isn't, then I'm an Irish speaking Chinaman.

is that you Ming, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Ming_Is_Ainm_Dom

Tombo2001

razorblunt wrote: »

I don't think that's his point.
Having Seamus as a birthname is one thing, being called James and then rocking up to school and being called "Seamus" for the next x amount of years of your life is another thing.

Yes.

And that doesn't happen.

I think what this is called....

.....is a strawman.

osarusan

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Yes.

And that doesn't happen.

I think what this is called....

.....is a strawman.

It happens plenty of the time in Irish classes.

Michael becomes Micheál, David becomes Daithi, etc.

bullpost

osarusan wrote: »

Young man fired for not following company policy.

focal he can do about it so.

Muff Richardson

Arghus wrote: »

There's clearly more to the story than just being fired for speaking Irish.

And if there isn't, then I'm an Irish speaking Chinaman.

Are you by any chance this little fella? If so, there's nothing else to the story.

honde

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Not sure where you grew up but you were in a minority.

Semantics aside, English is the native default language of this country.

So this style of argument is to repeat something that is plainly wrong and just keep repeating it no matter what anyone says ....interesting !!

looksee

If you went into a bar and a couple of young fellas behind the bar were having an in-depth discussion in English of Man U's chances in their next match, only breaking off to take orders then serving them while continuing to natter, the boss would get annoyed. The barmen are there to serve and interact - if they have time - with the customers. If a young fella is nattering in Irish about - anything - in the same circumstances, the boss is going to get annoyed. Likewise Polish or anything else. If however the barman restricts himself to greeting and thanking customers in Irish then switches to English I can't see this being anything other than a good thing. I suspect the story is not quite as clearcut as it is being told.

A Little Pony

The guy was a douchebag for speaking Irish.

holla

CaePae wrote: »

Of course. Irish people always used the normal English spelling for their names. It was only in the 19th century that Gaelic Leaguers started trying to spell their names the way some bogger from Conamara would pronounce them. Thats where all these so called "Irish Names" came from.

The same way a significant amount of Irish names (people and placenames) were bastardised into English first and now are being taken back.

Do you refer to yourself as Irish or a disgruntled Englishman annoyed that you were born after the Irish reclaimed their country?

The_Valeyard

A Little Pony wrote: »

The guy was a douchebag for speaking Irish.

Well that's a mature way to look at it.

Arghus

Muff Richardson wrote: »

Are you by any chance this little fella? If so, there's nothing else to the story.

Caca milis.

The Rape of Lucretia

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Well that's a mature way to look at it.

If you want to indulge in niche languages as a hobby, do it on your own time, not while at work. Employer fully entitled to discharge him.

Samaris

CaePae wrote: »

Personally: I think its about time people start cracking down on the use of Irish in public. That might teach the Irish Languag Taliban that their nonsence wont be tolorated any more. Imagine how awful it must be for tourists to come to an Irish city and hear people speaking Irish in places of business.

I sincerely suggest you never go to the continent. There's languages all over the place over there. You can't go into a shop without hearing French, Italian, Polish and all sorts of scary incomprehensible stuff. It's shocking, absolutely disgraceful.

Also, this is a total non-story. He was told not to do something, he refused to work under those conditions, he resigned/was sent his P45. If this was about not wearing a specific work jacket would anyone even bother talking about it?

The_Valeyard

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If you want to indulge in niche languages as a hobby, do it on your own time, not while at work. Employer fully entitled to discharge him.

No, he wasnt. I reckon a courtcase is looming.

irishgrover

livedadream wrote:

47.2% of people in the County where im from speak it outside the education system everyday.

I hope I can at this without insult or offence, as that is not my intent. However I simply don't believe there is any county in Ireland where 47% of the population genuinely speak any level of conversational Irish on a daily basis.