PHEV query

proponent

Hi all,
This is probably a stupid question.. Why is the electric range of most of the PHEV cars so bad in comparison to BEV's?

The plug in prius is something like 11 miles? Is it simply down to space in car for batteries and/or fuel tank..

Basically can you get the half decent electric range of a leaf 84 miles along with the full range of an ice into one car? Or are we just not there yet.

cros13

proponent wrote: »

Hi all,
This is probably a stupid question.. Why is the electric range of most of the PHEV cars so bad in comparison to BEV's?

Because they have to drag the weight of an ICE powertrain, often incur losses through a (again heavy) transmission that has to be designed to combine power from both powertrains, they tend to have poorer aerodynamics and generally have quite small batteries. The biggest reason would be the smaller battery. The Outlander PHEV is the longest EV range PHEV on the market in Ireland. It's motor has a similar power output to the Leaf's (85kW vs 80kW) but it's dragging 350kg more weight (1850kg vs 1500kg). But the big (well.... tiny) problem is the 12kWh battery. And they couldn't fit a bigger pack because of packaging issues, the ICE components take up too much of the usable space in the frame of the vehicle.

The small size of the pack creates additional problems. PHEVs often need packs designed for higher discharge to be able to feed the motors, and often either capacity or the motor's power output is cut either in design or in software (which is why you'll often see 30-40kW or even weaker motors in PHEVs, and low powered motors is what has traditionally given hybrids bad performance and driving dynamics in EV mode). Because of the heavier duty cycles the packs also reserve a larger portion of the headline capacity for possible degradation and for other practical reasons, so a smaller portion of these already smaller packs is actually usable day-to-day.
In a BEV, the pack is designed for capacity but is also physically much larger, with lower discharge rates per cell but more power delivery overall. Discharge load and fewer battery cycles are spread over these much larger packs and they can run more powerful motors (BEVs range from 65kW to 550kW) and are much more resilient.

proponent wrote: »

The plug in prius is something like 11 miles? Is it simply down to space in car for batteries and/or fuel tank..

The plug-in Prius is a compliance car. Toyota put just enough battery and just enough plug in it to get extra ZEV credits, tax credits and HOV lane access in the US. Exactly enough. It's a terrible car and was ludicrously priced, building a practical vehicle was not on the design spec. Those things have the lowest range of any plug-in vehicle I'm aware of. They are the one vehicle I'm unhappy to see at a chargepoint because by plugging them in the owners wasted both their own time AND a public chargepoint socket.

proponent wrote: »

Basically can you get the half decent electric range of a leaf 84 miles along with the full range of an ice into one car? Or are we just not there yet.

PHEVs are EVs with training wheels. People often buy a PHEV first, it dawns on them that even with the tiny range a lot of their driving is in EV mode and the next car they buy is a BEV.
We're already at a point where the new EV models hitting the market in the 12-18 months will pretty much all have 300km+ practical ranges and rapid charging as standard. That meets 99% of the needs of 99% of the population. Heck I do 50-60 thousand km a year and 2000-5000km road trips in an EV with half that range without much trouble.
I have a range extender motor that can extend the range by 100ish km but I've used it circa four times in total, all unforced use (because I wanted to catch an earlier ferry or whatever). It cost me 15-20km of range and €10,000 for the option plus lost grants and VAT/VRT. If I could trade for the extra EV range I'd do it in a heartbeat.

PHEVs have a small role as a confidence building tool for skittish motorists unsure if an EV will suit them. They'll probably represent the last gasp of the combustion engine, but pretty soon the ICE will be solely a generator and eventually just be wiped out by much cheaper, dedicated EV platforms with 400-500km range and better performance.

ICE range is less than people think. Tesla's 100kWh pack already outstrips the full tank range of many of the model S's combustion powered competitors. And the per kWh price of the batteries is still falling. And most people are still unaware of rapid charging. And we have 150-350kW rapid charging on the horizon, giving 120-250km of range for every 10 minutes of charge time.

BoatMad

Excellent summary

proponent

Terrific post

Thank you!!

zilog_jones

cros13 wrote: »

The plug-in Prius is a compliance car. Toyota put just enough battery and just enough plug in it to get extra ZEV credits, tax credits and HOV lane access in the US. Exactly enough. It's a terrible car and was ludicrously priced, building a practical vehicle was not on the design spec. Those things have the lowest range of any plug-in vehicle I'm aware of. They are the one vehicle I'm unhappy to see at a chargepoint because by plugging them in the owners wasted both their own time AND a public chargepoint socket.

It's a compromise sure, but terrible? Compared to a standard hybrid 3rd gen Prius you're losing out on the spare tyre and like 5 litres boot space, but are getting about 16km EV range instead of 2km - EV mode in the standard Prius is nothing but a novelty. With current battery energy density and a small-ish car like this (compared to say an Outlander), any bigger range would be too much of a compromise.

The new price was insane, but after 4 years it cost no more than a normal high-spec Prius - so for me, going for this over a standard used Prius was a no-brainer.

The new Prius Prime PHEV will have a much better range, but they've had to remove the rear centre seat to make more space for the charger. But they really need to reduce the price if they ever want Toyota Ireland to sell them...

I've noticed most people around here who think the Prius Plug-in is bad are either living in or around Dublin. I'm in Cork, and live 7km from work and 3km from the city centre - so getting around town with the short EV range is not a problem. It definitely doesn't suit everyone but it's far from useless.

Also, compare it to what most people are actually buying these days - small diesels. It has better performance than an average 1.6 diesel, will cost less to fuel and tax, produces significantly less emissions, and you can still get 800-1400km range on a 45 litre tank depending on how much charging you do.

I don't see how I'm wasting time by using a public charging point? I'd be using one in town or at my destination - I'm not going to use a FCP on a motorway because I'm not going to benefit from charging it (EV mode speed limit is 85km/h), and they don't work with the Prius anyway (I tried )

I suppose the point people are making is that those of us with Full Electric cars know by now their usefulness, particularly those lucky enough to have the 30 Kwh leaf due to it's longer range and faster charging, the 30 Kwh is much less of a limitation and cheaper new than a PIP prius and probably 2nd hand also and a lot cheaper to run and maintain though Toyota servicing on a Prius is quiet reasonable and probably not much more than a bloody inspection on a Leaf with a lot less work.

Regarding public charging, yes, you would be using them considerably more than a fully battery car but if you're fine with that then that's grand.

Toyota price the Prius Plug in in the hope that not many will buy it, amazingly, for the normal hybrid NiMh battery , Toyota charge half , for a 1 Kwh battery what Nissan charge for a 24 Kwh LiIon battery. about 2500 V 5,500 for Leaf battery. About 2009 the Leaf battery cost about 12,000.

If a plug in Prius works for you then that's all that matters really, just remember a 30 Kwh leaf will do 140-150 kms on a 100% charge leaving home with another 120kms with a 30 min charge. That's 270 odd kms from a 30 min fast charge after the first 100% charge.

Marcusm

I think that, Prius and other EVs excepted, you have to consider that most PHEVs should be compared with the equivalent non PHEV. For example, BMW 330e vs 330i. We have to recognise that we are piggybacking on the UK market and the principal attraction in the PHEV is the vastly reduced benefit in kind tax charge attached to "low CO2" vehicles (based on the EU cycle). Approx 50% of the U.K. New sales market is employer provided cars and it's likely to be an even higher for this sort of car. The net cost to the driver is substantially reduced by the low BIK level setting aside the value of government grants for registration.

Likewise in Ireland, not only does such a car attract VRT rebates and an SEAI grants but also benefits from a reduced 14% VRT rate as opposed to the 23% rate applicable to the non PHEV. This will be even more significant at the level of (say) an XC90 where it is a 14% vs 30% comparator on the VRT. Motor tax would be €170 instead of €750.

The VRT reduction is basically wiped out by the high cost of the PHEV in the first place.

It's a lot of money to spend on the security of having an engine for the couple of times a year you might need it, over a battery car and fast charging that is.

Marcusm

Deleted User wrote: »

The VRT reduction is basically wiped out by the high cost of the PHEV in the first place.

It's a lot of money to spend on the security of having an engine for the couple of times a year you might need it, over a battery car and fast charging that is.

Re your first point, not really. If you look at a high cost car such as XC90, the massive reduction in the rate of VRT can account for €10k or more of savings before you even take account of the €7.5k of incentives. For people who sensibly want a powerful petrol SUV, that leads it to being a. Winning proposition. Certainly it makes me think one of them might be a suitable replacement for a 4.2 v8 supercharged Range Rover.

My point I guess is that a 330e is something a GTi buyer would consider and some of the other PHEVs are similar, ie the alternative is not an EV.

I suppose if you include a 4x4 PHEV, I wasn't considering them at all only normal smaller hatches and the likes, usually the Plug in works out more expensive than a 30 Kwh leaf for instance, there are no EV's to compete in this range at all.

Marcusm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose if you include a 4x4 PHEV, I wasn't considering them at all only normal smaller hatches and the likes, usually the Plug in works out more expensive than a 30 Kwh leaf for instance, there are no EV's to compete in this range at all.

If you look over in the main forum, you'll see a long thread on BMW 330e. There are two owners and lots of interest; none of them see it as an alternative to a Leaf. That's not the market, I think what it shows is that there isn't a single buyer just lots of segments and a little electrification can give a nice performance and potentially mpg boost.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose if you include a 4x4 PHEV, I wasn't considering them at all only normal smaller hatches and the likes, usually the Plug in works out more expensive than a 30 Kwh leaf for instance, there are no EV's to compete in this range at all.

Which is a short sighted view. I think PHEV's are perfect for large vehicles like SUV's and big american trucks.

Not everyone wants a small car, lots of people, like big cars. In fact it seems the majority of people like big vehicles, given that the top selling vehicles in the US are trucks again and SUV's are the top selling vehicles in Ireland.

If we want to reduce our impact on the environment we need to make all vehicles electric, not just small cars.

The idea of PHEV SUV's like the Outlander PHEV is perfect IMO. As most people know, most SUV's in Ireland never go near a field and rarely do more then the school run. If you can convert most of these to a PHEV with enough range for the daily commute, while still having the ICE engine for the odd long distance trip, would be a massive benefit to the environment, massively reducing the amounts of CO2 and NOX released.

For the owner of the vehicle, the benefit is having a large SUV type vehicle, with the running costs (fuel efficiency, road tax, etc.) of a small vehicle.

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

Which is a short sighted view. I think PHEV's are perfect for large vehicles like SUV's and big american trucks.

Not everyone wants a small car, lots of people, like big cars. In fact it seems the majority of people like big vehicles, given that the top selling vehicles in the US are trucks again and SUV's are the top selling vehicles in Ireland.

If we want to reduce our impact on the environment we need to make all vehicles electric, not just small cars.

The idea of PHEV SUV's like the Outlander PHEV is perfect IMO. As most people know, most SUV's in Ireland never go near a field and rarely do more then the school run. If you can convert most of these to a PHEV with enough range for the daily commute, while still having the ICE engine for the odd long distance trip, would be a massive benefit to the environment, massively reducing the amounts of CO2 and NOX released.

For the owner of the vehicle, the benefit is having a large SUV type vehicle, with the running costs (fuel efficiency, road tax, etc.) of a small vehicle.

Large PHEVS make no sense, firstly they are expensive , the additional costs completely outweighs any savings that are made using the electric system ( and they have typically very low range ) . running costs can not be operated from owning costs .

Hence purchasers of large PHEVs are deluding themselves, and infact the so called " economy " they are receiving is a function of the free public charging that will end , and unless you can home charge, The savings will be minimal.

PS: while the SUV category is popular, its represents less than 25% pf the s small, mini and medium standard , which taken together show that the vast majority of cars bought in ireland are of the smaller variety , putting a lie to your comment that people like big cars ( and the stats are inflated by commercial jeeps etc ) . on a body type basis , Jeep type vehicles represents about 9% off the irish market

(all stats from beep beep)

big PHEVS are really a tax scam, the nature of the NEDC approval cycle, is that its mainly carried on at low speed, where the electric motors can serve to reduce C02 ratings, but its conning the system in reality , these vehicles spend large amounts of time using their gas guzzlers.

By all means offer them to consumers, but any grants/VRT reductions should be totally orientated to BEVs as the only zero emissions cars

bk

bk wrote: »

Which is a short sighted view. I think PHEV's are perfect for large vehicles like SUV's and big american trucks.

Not everyone wants a small car, lots of people, like big cars. In fact it seems the majority of people like big vehicles, given that the top selling vehicles in the US are trucks again and SUV's are the top selling vehicles in Ireland.

If we want to reduce our impact on the environment we need to make all vehicles electric, not just small cars.

The idea of PHEV SUV's like the Outlander PHEV is perfect IMO. As most people know, most SUV's in Ireland never go near a field and rarely do more then the school run. If you can convert most of these to a PHEV with enough range for the daily commute, while still having the ICE engine for the odd long distance trip, would be a massive benefit to the environment, massively reducing the amounts of CO2 and NOX released.

For the owner of the vehicle, the benefit is having a large SUV type vehicle, with the running costs (fuel efficiency, road tax, etc.) of a small vehicle.

I wasn't considering the U.S , different market.

Yes I keep saying EV makers need to produce EV SUV's. Maybe someday....

PHEV are better than Diesel but not many are buying ev hatches so who's to say they will buy PHEV's ? PHEV's usually cost more than the equivalent EV.

BoatMad

Yes I keep saying EV makers need to produce EV SUV's. Maybe someday....

model X ?

cros13

Sure, Model X

And in the new year we have Jaguar's E-Pace based on the new electric platform shared with Land Rover.

And then Audi will be coming in with it's new electric Q7...
MB is also planning a pair of BEV SUVs. Bentley is expected to be launching one after they get their first BEV sedan out the door.

And then after the Tesla Model 3 demand softens a bit we should see the model Y built on the model 3 platform.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

model X ?

I meant within the realms of affordability......:D

Marcusm

Fundamentally, PHEVs are cars born of a need to arbitrage rules and regulations. For the car makers, it is a massive assistance in reducing the weighted average CO2 emissions for the fleet - you are dealing with cars which theoretically produce 30-50g and no diesel is ever going to beat that. The car maker can afford to discount or take lower margin due to the capacity it permits for higher CO2 models. From a buyer perspective, theoretically lower CO2 models attract lower taxation or higher incentives.

Effector it is corporate welfare. From my perspective, I think it can provide a performance boost and the fuel efficiency aspect doesn't really concern meZ

BoatMad

Fundamentally, PHEVs are cars born of a need to arbitrage rules and regulations.

+1

hence for those primarily designed in boosting performance ( not fuel efficiency ) there should be no grant aid at all.

But the focus in the E.U for far too long has been on Co2 emissions and now they realise this was wrong, Co2 isn't a pollutant, This is what got VW into such hot water in the U.S because of all the otter actual pollution.

This is the excuse the Government are going to give next month for the hike in Diesel tax, which in all fairness is nothing over 5 years, an extra 10 C, ridiculous attempt to try steer people away from diesel, in fact I'd even be in favour of reducing Petrol tax to compensate.

Diesels should be taxed based on real pollution also not bloody Co2. Mad !

Anyway, plug ins should reduce actual harmful emissions regardless, better than having diesels on the road.

Ireland does have a a lot of very old filthy diesels on the road, especially commercial rubbish that's allowed on our roads, ancient school busses for one, even if they could convert them to Gas !

Marcusm

But you're both missing the point; the CO2 measure is used, AFAIK, to judge adherence to mandatory CO2 reductions under Kyoto so the theoretical CO2 level is of advantage to the government is avoiding fines and is thus worthy of support and subsidy irrespective of the actual usage ��

I'm not sure we actually really have any legal binding to pay any Co2 fines ? then again we're giving the banks 120 Billion for free and they have the balls to charge us interest...... yes another matter. Just kind of making a point, they probably would pay rather than invest in lowering whatever emissions after all, it's te tax payer who pays, simple solution, pay fines then don't have to bother coming up with solutions.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure we actually really have any legal binding to pay any Co2 fines ? then again we're giving the banks 120 Billion for free and they have the balls to charge us interest...... yes another matter. Just kind of making a point, they probably would pay rather than invest in lowering whatever emissions after all, it's te tax payer who pays, simple solution, pay fines then don't have to bother coming up with solutions.

Yes, we are bound by the treaty to purchase CO2 credits, which some have called "fines".

However under whatever the split becomes for the EU INDC of 40% we almost certainly will face fines.

mickdw

What is the story currently with public charge points in terms of payment?

cros13

mickdw wrote: »

What is the story currently with public charge points in terms of payment?

Still free. CER has not ruled yet. Even if they do charge for them it doesn't matter much for the economics because 95% of charging is done at home.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

Still free. CER has not ruled yet. Even if they do charge for them it doesn't matter much for the economics because 95% of charging is done at home.

We have no idea that's the case. Esb of the view that public charging is outrunning home charging at present, but no one has good stats.

mickdw

BoatMad wrote: »

We have no idea that's the case. Esb of the view that public charging is outrunning home charging at present, but no one has good stats.

Well if it's free it's easy to understand a big proportion being public charging.

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

Well if it's free it's easy to understand a big proportion being public charging.

That's ecars contentuon but the data is scanty