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KCC roads insanity

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    #62
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    L1011 wrote: »

    That was urea rather than salt. Standard KCC inability to think of consequences
    Urea is chemically superior to NaCl for treating roads, I thought - considering the abnormally low temperatures.

    In the circumstances it would be hard to so strongly criticise them.


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    #63
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lucernarian wrote: »
    Urea is chemically superior to NaCl for treating roads, I thought - considering the abnormally low temperatures.

    In the circumstances it would be hard to so strongly criticise them.

    Its not meant to be used when there's any risk of it entering watercourses. Which it did.


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    #64
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    L1011 wrote: »
    6pm when the forecast was for evening snow. Plenty of low traffic time before then to treat. Maynooth.

    Ok, just a couple of things, your post said "Roads untreated despite the forecasts" but what you meant was to refer to Maynooth.
    Secondly, I've never salted a road in my life but it would be inappropriate to treat a road that didn't need treating. Snow fell but the temperature of the roads wasnt cold enough to result in freezing ice. There was no Met Eireann report of icy roads in Maynooth.
    Lastly, clearly there is no appropriate time to salt during a normal working day. There is too much traffic on the road network.

    No offence but the content of your first post was a bit sensationalistic or have I misunderstood?


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    #65
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I drove on the roads. There was ice formation and the forecasts suggest the conditions for it. My location is beside all posts.

    I've seen KCC gritting during rush hour so clearly traffic concerns don't matter when they feel like it.


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    #66
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    HonalD wrote: »
    Ok, just a couple of things, your post said "Roads untreated despite the forecasts" but what you meant was to refer to Maynooth.
    Secondly, I've never salted a road in my life but it would be inappropriate to treat a road that didn't need treating. Snow fell but the temperature of the roads wasnt cold enough to result in freezing ice. There was no Met Eireann report of icy roads in Maynooth.
    Lastly, clearly there is no appropriate time to salt during a normal working day. There is too much traffic on the road network.

    No offence but the content of your first post was a bit sensationalistic or have I misunderstood?

    I don't really care what Met Eireann say - the roads and paths were icy both last night and this morning. I live in Maynooth also so you can take our word for it over someone who doesn't.


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    #67
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    L1011 wrote: »
    I've seen KCC gritting during rush hour so clearly traffic concerns don't matter when they feel like it.

    I've also seen them commence major roadworks as soon as the schools and college go back rather than during the summer when traffic is lighter. But then they did do their traffic survey during abnormal conditions so they probably don't know what the traffic is actually like in Maynooth.


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    #68
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    L1011 wrote:
    I drove on the roads. There was ice formation and the forecasts suggest the conditions for it. My location is beside all posts.


    We can agree that you've put forward circumstantial evidence at best. So it's your opinion that gritting is needed and that opinion was not based on any facts, just observations.
    Why not ring the Council's area office or out of office number? I can't see how your ambiguous post could be more helpful.


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    #69
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    L1011 wrote:
    I've seen KCC gritting during rush hour so clearly traffic concerns don't matter when they feel like it.


    When was this?


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    #70
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    HonalD wrote: »
    When was this?

    Last winter and winters before. The area office answering the phone at 6pm is laughably unlikely; doing something at 6pm of contactable isn't going to happen. Out of hours get grumpy at you for daring to call.

    You're oddly defensive here against people who actually saw the conditions.


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    #71
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    Orion wrote:
    I don't really care what Met Eireann say - the roads and paths were icy both last night and this morning. I live in Maynooth also so you can take our word for it over someone who doesn't.


    @Orion - I was addressing a specific post about gritting at 6pm.

    If you don't care what Met Eireann says then discussion about weather forecasts will be a waste of time. If you can advise of a better forecasting authority please do so.


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    #72
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    Orion wrote:
    I've also seen them commence major roadworks as soon as the schools and college go back rather than during the summer when traffic is lighter. But then they did do their traffic survey during abnormal conditions so they probably don't know what the traffic is actually like in Maynooth.


    How is that relevant to gritting roads?


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    #73
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    HonalD wrote: »
    @Orion - I was addressing a specific post about gritting at 6pm.

    If you don't care what Met Eireann says then discussion about weather forecasts will be a waste of time. If you can advise of a better forecasting authority please do so.

    You referred to reports (as in post event data) not forecasts. Though I can see KCC being entirely reactive not proactive and working off post event reports...


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    #74
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    HonalD wrote: »
    How is that relevant to gritting roads?

    General incompetence and poor timing.


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    #75
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    L1011 wrote:
    You're oddly defensive here against people who actually saw the conditions.


    I'm not saying it wasn't snowing as I know it was. I'm pointing out that just because you feel gritting is needed then that doesn't make you correct and if you don't ring them then it won't happen.


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    #76
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    L1011 wrote:
    Last winter and winters before. The area office answering the phone at 6pm is laughably unlikely; doing something at 6pm of contactable isn't going to happen. Out of hours get grumpy at you for daring to call.


    If that's actually true, then report the instances that it happens.


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    #77
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    HonalD wrote: »
    If that's actually true, then report the instances that it happens.

    To who? I'd prefer poorly done gritting to none. Which is what we got yesterday, and had icey roads as a result.

    Do you have information to contradict the need for gritting?


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    #78
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    HonalD wrote: »
    How is that relevant to gritting roads?

    It was in relation to you saying KCC don't do things when there are too much traffic.


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    #79
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    HonalD wrote: »
    If you don't care what Met Eireann says then discussion about weather forecasts will be a waste of time. If you can advise of a better forecasting authority please do so.

    I am specifically referencing you saying they didn't say roads were icy. They were. And their forecasts were consistent with roads becoming icy.


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    #80
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Orion wrote: »
    It was in relation to you saying KCC don't do things when there are too much traffic.

    As opposed to doing everything except the traffic surveys!

    Whoever booked that survey should be made pay for the new one that'll be needed personally.


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    #81
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    HonalD wrote: »
    We can agree that you've put forward circumstantial evidence at best. So it's your opinion that gritting is needed and that opinion was not based on any facts, just observations.
    Why not ring the Council's area office or out of office number? I can't see how your ambiguous post could be more helpful.

    So you're saying that observations of the actual conditions are not facts?


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    #82
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    L1011 wrote: »
    That was urea rather than salt. Standard KCC inability to think of consequences

    Worse again, it was agricultural fertiliser as they had run out of rock salt. Do they not know this stuff destroys water ways? They nearly may as well have used diesel.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/water-pollution-caused-major-disruption-at-intel-plant-1.1273780

    EDIT: in fairness to them they did consult the fisheries board who said to use it only in absolute emergencies. They used it for only one night as it damaged the gritters. Doh!


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    #83
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    L1011 wrote:
    You referred to reports (as in post event data) not forecasts. Though I can see KCC being entirely reactive not proactive and working off post event reports...


    How about some research is done into the issue, if only to establish the facts from opinions?


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    #84
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    HonalD wrote: »
    How about some research is done into the issue, if only to establish the facts from opinions?

    The facts are:
    Snow was forecast for yesterday evening, and it snowed.
    The roads were not treated and got icy as a result.

    Have you got any to add?


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    #85
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    L1011 wrote: »
    The facts are:
    Snow was forecast for yesterday evening, and it snowed.
    The roads were not treated and got icy as a result.

    Have you got any to add?
    It's fairly straightforward to most of us reading I hope!

    The wintry showers led to wet roads and were inevitably going to freeze over going by the Met's forecast. NRA weather stations which I checked for the Dublin area yesterday evening indicated the same. They should have gritted the roads, end of story.


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    #86
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    L1011 wrote: »
    To who? I'd prefer poorly done gritting to none. Which is what we got yesterday, and had icey roads as a result.

    Do you have information to contradict the need for gritting?

    Ok, I get it, sometimes posters cannot admit that they are wrong.

    Clearly your post was sensationalistic as you based it on your personal opinion and neglected to contextualise it to only Maynooth (and not County Kildare which the forum refers to).

    Clearly you have assumed that at 6pm as it was snowing (lightly) that the roads needed to be gritted before this.

    I challenged you to research gritting and the parameters needed to invoke gritting of roads and then you ask me to contradict the need for gritting???

    Would it be too much to ask you to substantiate your claim above that we had icy roads as a result? When, where, what proof do you have it was icy? What was the road temperature readings?

    bottom line is, if you want roads gritted ring the council. If you are too afraid of getting a grumpy member of staff or can't be bothered following up poor level of service then so be it. But why moan here, we can't grit them!


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    #87
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    lucernarian wrote: »
    It's fairly straightforward to most of us reading I hope!

    The wintry showers led to wet roads and were inevitably going to freeze over going by the Met's forecast. NRA weather stations which I checked for the Dublin area yesterday evening indicated the same. They should have gritted the roads, end of story.

    That's not correct for 6pm yesterday and that's my point. It may be true for 3am last night (you've seen the empirical data) and maybe they were gritted but there is no evidence to say that the surface temperature at 6pm in Maynooth was cold enough that the roads needed gritting.

    I'm also not sure that there is an obligation to treat roads at all but I'm open to correction. Factual correction as opposed to opinion based commentary. ;)


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    #88
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    Orion wrote: »
    So you're saying that observations of the actual conditions are not facts?

    Yes absolutely.

    You observe many things in life but not all are true or facts.

    You nor any other observer could possibly know what the surface temperature was last night at 6pm. It wasn't very cold and definitely was not freezing at that time.


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    #89
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    HonalD wrote: »
    I challenged you to research gritting and the parameters needed to invoke gritting of roads and then you ask me to contradict the need for gritting???

    Considering KCC don't appear to know them (gritting whenever it suits them, traffic or not), I don't see how putting research in to it is going to help
    HonalD wrote: »
    Would it be too much to ask you to substantiate your claim above that we had icy roads as a result? When, where, what proof do you have it was icy? What was the road temperature readings?

    I drove on them. You didn't.

    You argue a lot on here - its actually nearly all your posts on this subforum - about roads and traffic in North Kildare constantly showing absolutely zero knowledge of the actual situation here. Why?
    HonalD wrote: »
    bottom line is, if you want roads gritted ring the council. If you are too afraid of getting a grumpy member of staff or can't be bothered following up poor level of service then so be it. But why moan here, we can't grit them!

    If I get an actual person, are they going to bother sending gritters out when the road is already screwed or just wait until the presumably scheduled one for that night? I'd wager the latter.


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    #90
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    L1011 wrote: »
    General incompetence and poor timing.

    Wow, that's a big leap, connecting timing of surveys with gritting.....and then coming out with a statement like that. Your opinion is obviously very low. You really should complain more.


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    #91
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,886 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    HonalD wrote: »
    Wow, that's a big leap, connecting timing of surveys with gritting.....and then coming out with a statement like that. Your opinion is obviously very low. You really should complain more.

    My opinion is based on over a decade of complaining to them before I gave up. You get responses so bad a child can see through the "logic" in them and most importantly - nothing done.

    Have you ever tried complaining to KCC about roads?


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