Good cycling infrastructure improves cyclist behaviour

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

Screw the non-cyclists using lack of facilities as an excuse for the fact that they don't cycle. It's bull****.

I do remember work colleagues telling me that cycling sounded great (cheap! fast!), but they couldn't do it because there were no cycle tracks on their route. I had a think about their route and said there were. So they changed the reason for not cycling to the the weather.

Similarly I remember people telling me they'd only use the bus when it had a pre-paid ticketing system, like in a civilised country. At that time, Dublin Bus did have a pre-paid ticketing system, so I pointed that out. I never saw those people on the bus.

Admittedly, that old Rambler system had many flaws, but it was ok for people doing a return journey of moderate length.

the.red.baron

Chuchote wrote: »

If we leave out Leitrim, etc and just look at Dublin density, how does it compare?



A mile to every school, main road.

So only if the schools on a main road, you want to put in a bike lane for the last mile.

Give us an example of a school on a main road so I know what you mean

tomasrojo

smacl wrote: »

Basically it is a matter of space. To have enough space for a cycle lane at a junction with two lanes you need a cycle lane beside each car lane, as can be seen here;

You really need a better advocate here than me, because I don't have enough experience or practical knowledge of the Dutch system, but I don't think a Dutch urban system would place cyclists in the right lane there. The bicycle traffic, from designs I've seen, often doesn't go into larger junctions but takes an alternative route, or uses refuges.

I assume their solution would also be slower than just using the car lane there.

I guess the best thing is to ask people who've used it extensively. Feedback from users here has usually been positive.

Chuchote

the.red.baron wrote: »

So only if the schools on a main road, you want to put in a bike lane for the last mile.

Give us an example of a school on a main road so I know what you mean

The main road leading to the school.

smacl

tomasrojo wrote: »

That's true, but Dublin's population density from the centre out to the inner suburbs is rather like a Dutch city. irishcycle.com did a post on it a while back. Cork and Galway could probably benefit.

I guess I'm not saying that Ireland necessarily has to copy and paste what the Netherlands does or did in the past, but I have to say that, based on that graph, they really did a great job of turning around a deteriorating situation. Unless I've missed something.

The Dutch did a good job, in that it provided the desired solution for their requirements and budget. I think the lesson here is to do a good job, which is more that just copying what someone else did. I don't have any hard information to hand, but I think apartment living in multi-storey blocks is at a much higher level in most major Dutch cities than Dublin. Worth remembering that we're talking about a country here that has spent vast amounts of money reclaiming land from the sea in order to increase its available area.

Chips Lovell

smacl wrote: »

The worst thing you can do is draw in cycle lanes where there simply isn't space for them. They shouldn't be anywhere near junctions where the lanes split if they can't be accommodated, as this leaves the cyclist in the wrong lane if they go all the way to the junction, or encourages late lane changing if they simply disappear near the junction.

The other issue about cycle lanes and advanced stop boxes at junctions is that the encourage needless overtaking. If you arrive at a junction and there's two or three cars waiting, you join the traffic at the back of the queue, because you're still going to make it through the lights. Cycle lanes running up the inside encourage most cyclists to move right up to the front when they don't have to.

Chuchote

Surely the main thing is that we take the hard-won lessons of the Dutch, Germans and Danes:

Key policies and innovative measures used in Dutch, Danish and German cities to promote safe and convenient cycling

Extensive systems of separate cycling facilities
• Well-maintained, fully integrated paths, lanes and special bicycle streets in cities and surrounding regions.
• Fully coordinated system of colour-coded directional signs for bicyclists.
• Off-street short-cuts, such as mid-block connections and passages through dead-ends for cars.
• Intersection modifications and priority traffic signals
• Advance green lights for cyclists at most intersections.
• Advanced cyclist waiting positions (ahead of cars) fed by special bike lanes facilitate safer and quicker crossings and turns.
• Cyclist short-cuts to make right-hand turns before intersections and exemption from red traffic signals at T-intersections, thus increasing cyclist speed and safety.
• Bike paths turn into brightly coloured bike lanes when crossing intersections.
• Traffic signals are synchronized at cyclist speeds assuring consecutive green lights for cyclists (green wave).
• Bollards with flashing lights along bike routes signal cyclists the right speed to reach the next intersection at a green light.
Traffic calming
• Traffic calming of all residential neighbourhoods via speed limit (30 km/hr) and physical infrastructure deterrents for cars.
• Bicycle streets, narrow roads where bikes have absolute priority over cars.
• 'Home Zones’ with 7 km/hr speed limit, where cars must yield to pedestrians and cyclists using the road.
Bike parking
• Large supply of good bike parking throughout the city.
• Improved lighting and security of bike parking facilities often featuring guards, video-surveillance and priority parking for women.
Coordination with public transport
• Extensive bike parking at all metro, suburban and regional train stations.
• ‘Call a Bike’ programmes: bikes can be rented by cell phone at transit stops, paid for by the minute and left at any busy intersection in the city.
• Bike rentals at most train stations.
• Deluxe bike parking garages at some train stations, with video-surveillance, special lighting, music, repair services and bike rentals.
Traffic education and training
• Comprehensive cycling training courses for virtually all school children with test by traffic police.
• Special cycling training test tracks for children.
• Stringent training of motorists to respect pedestrians and cyclists and avoid hitting them
Traffic laws
• Special legal protection for children and elderly cyclists.
• Motorists assumed by law to be responsible for almost all crashes with cyclists.
• Strict enforcement of cyclist rights by police and courts.

mjsc1970

Chuchote wrote: »

Surely the main thing is that we take the hard-won lessons of the Dutch, Germans and Danes:

Key policies and innovative measures used in Dutch, Danish and German cities to promote safe and convenient cycling

Extensive systems of separate cycling facilities
• Well-maintained, fully integrated paths, lanes and special bicycle streets in cities and surrounding regions.
• Fully coordinated system of colour-coded directional signs for bicyclists.
• Off-street short-cuts, such as mid-block connections and passages through dead-ends for cars.
• Intersection modifications and priority traffic signals
• Advance green lights for cyclists at most intersections.
• Advanced cyclist waiting positions (ahead of cars) fed by special bike lanes facilitate safer and quicker crossings and turns.
• Cyclist short-cuts to make right-hand turns before intersections and exemption from red traffic signals at T-intersections, thus increasing cyclist speed and safety.
• Bike paths turn into brightly coloured bike lanes when crossing intersections.
• Traffic signals are synchronized at cyclist speeds assuring consecutive green lights for cyclists (green wave).
• Bollards with flashing lights along bike routes signal cyclists the right speed to reach the next intersection at a green light.
Traffic calming
• Traffic calming of all residential neighbourhoods via speed limit (30 km/hr) and physical infrastructure deterrents for cars.
• Bicycle streets, narrow roads where bikes have absolute priority over cars.
• 'Home Zones’ with 7 km/hr speed limit, where cars must yield to pedestrians and cyclists using the road.
Bike parking
• Large supply of good bike parking throughout the city.
• Improved lighting and security of bike parking facilities often featuring guards, video-surveillance and priority parking for women.
Coordination with public transport
• Extensive bike parking at all metro, suburban and regional train stations.
• ‘Call a Bike’ programmes: bikes can be rented by cell phone at transit stops, paid for by the minute and left at any busy intersection in the city.
• Bike rentals at most train stations.
• Deluxe bike parking garages at some train stations, with video-surveillance, special lighting, music, repair services and bike rentals.
Traffic education and training
• Comprehensive cycling training courses for virtually all school children with test by traffic police.
• Special cycling training test tracks for children.
• Stringent training of motorists to respect pedestrians and cyclists and avoid hitting them
Traffic laws
• Special legal protection for children and elderly cyclists.
• Motorists assumed by law to be responsible for almost all crashes with cyclists.
• Strict enforcement of cyclist rights by police and courts.

This'd be some fairytale if it were ever to happen here. 'T'wud be beyond amazing. I could see the motoring fraternity self combusting left right and centre.

NamelessPhil

smacl wrote: »

Where the infrastructure scores for me is in getting my daughter to cycle to school, where her mum isn't happy with her being on the road proper in rush hour. For her trip from Ballyboden to Kilternan she has decent infrastructure for most of the way, which gives her the opportunity to get stronger on the bike. I think vehicular cycling in traffic demands a higher level of road awareness and agility, so the cycle lanes are good for a novice getting up to speed, an occasional cyclist, or those who are simply not comfortable being in traffic.

Ballyboden to Kilternan via Grange Road is pretty good in terms of protected infrastructure, Ballyboden to UCD via Nutgrove Avenue is pretty appalling. I'll happily use the Grange Road cycle track; the"cycle facilities" provided on Nutgrove Avenue I'll happily ignore!

Corca Baiscinn

Chuchote wrote: »

Surely the main thing is that we take the hard-won lessons of the Dutch, Germans and Danes:

Key policies and innovative measures used in Dutch, Danish and German cities to promote safe and convenient cycling

Yeaay! Have you sent this to Minister Ross, the NTA, and Dublin City Co for their consideration? And the Cycling Campaign groups? Implemented at eh rate of two a year some of us would live to see the new dawn!

smacl

NamelessPhil wrote: »

Ballyboden to Kilternan via Grange Road is pretty good in terms of protected infrastructure, Ballyboden to UCD via Nutgrove Avenue is pretty appalling. I'll happily use the Grange Road cycle track; the"cycle facilities" provided on Nutgrove Avenue I'll happily ignore!

Yep, used to be back and forward to UCD a couple of times a week. I love the way the Nutgrove cycle lane ends in mid flow in places, forcing you re-enter traffic that doesn't want you there. Much safer to ignore it, which is unfortunately the case with quite a few cycle lanes. The genius who designed this particular stretch needs to be taken to one side and left there.

dub_skav

Ouch, you're bringing back horrible memories. I used to cycle that way every day for work. I too ended up ditching the cycle lanes.

I used to be somewhat against cycle lanes and with the vehicular cyclist view, but as I've gotten older I see that the problem is the poor design and thought that goes into our cycle lanes.
For relatively low speed commuting and transport, cycle lanes are perfectly appropriate, but not with the on road, off road, dumped at junctions and randomly ending approach that we have in so many places here.

Charles Babbage

It seems probable that proper facilities would improve cycling in many ways and there is absolutely no doubt that many so called cycling facilities in Ireland are a disgrace.

However the opposite contention is not justified, poor cycling facilities do not in any way justify delinquent behaviour by cyclists, especially towards pedestrians.

tomasrojo

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

That's the article about Dublin's population density and how it compares to Amsterdam. It's pretty similar until you get fairly far out from the city centre.

tomasrojo

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Cycle lanes running up the inside encourage most cyclists to move right up to the front when they don't have to.

Yeah, if there are only a couple of cars, I tend to just join the queue. Especially turning right. Nice to let someone else clear the way.

smacl

tomasrojo wrote: »

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

That's the article about Dublin's population density and how it compares to Amsterdam. It's pretty similar until you get fairly far out from the city centre.

Not a bad article (though ad hock made me cringe just a little). I still think there is a huge amount that could be done in Dublin in terms of improved functional cycling as a mode of transport without such a huge spend as would be incurred with a full Colville-Anderson approach. Things like clamping those parking in cycle lanes for example would be largely self funding and contribute to the cleaning of those lanes. Removing danger zones, as per the Nutgrove example shown previously, from the existing lanes, and similarly take an consistent approach to cycle lanes at junctions (e.g. if cyclists are going to be treated like pedestrians at junctions and roundabouts take them onto the path at that point, don't leave them on the inside of left turning traffic). Close off rat runs to cars but leave them available to bikes, such that people naturally cycle less busy roads.

First and foremost, make it mandatory for anyone involved in design, development and maintenance of cycling infrastructure to actually cycle it on a regular basis. Might actually end up with something that works.

smacl

Chuchote wrote: »

Surely the main thing is that we take the hard-won lessons of the Dutch, Germans and Danes

No offence but we're neither Dutch nor Germans nor Danes. The people who need to buy into this idea are by and large Irish motorists who already seem pretty peed off at all the cycle lanes out there that don't get used, and are maybe less than keen on lashing out for more cycle lanes that may also end up empty. Before blowing the budget on the latest Colville-Anderson fantasy vision of the future, we could perhaps hire a few more traffic police, enforce our traffic laws, and fix some of the infrastructure that's already there.

tomasrojo

smacl wrote: »

Close off rat runs to cars but leave them available to bikes, such that people naturally cycle less busy roads.

Yes, this already has been shown to work in Dublin. Make estates permeable to pedestrians and cyclists, but not to cars.

Balally/Dundrum has reasonable levels of school children cycling, and I assume it's because of this restricted permeability.

There are some nice riverside cycles, such as along the Slang, too. More of these shouldn't be too controversial. They actually are used, unlike the Potemkin cycle tracks elsewhere.

boardbeer

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The other issue about cycle lanes and advanced stop boxes at junctions is that the encourage needless overtaking. If you arrive at a junction and there's two or three cars waiting, you join the traffic at the back of the queue, because you're still going to make it through the lights. Cycle lanes running up the inside encourage most cyclists to move right up to the front when they don't have to.

One of the stated goals for advanced stop lanes that is given in France, is to take cyclists out of the exhaust zone, and for that reason I will always take advantage of the ASL where present. Who needs the extra respiratory problems, cancers and cardiovascular damage that vehicle exhausts cause?
Mostly, though, the front car has stopped in the box.

Chuchote

smacl wrote: »

Not a bad article (though ad hock made me cringe just a little).

Love their white wine, the Dutch

I still think there is a huge amount that could be done in Dublin in terms of improved functional cycling as a mode of transport without such a huge spend as would be incurred with a full Colville-Anderson approach. Things like clamping those parking in cycle lanes for example would be largely self funding and contribute to the cleaning of those lanes. Removing danger zones, as per the Nutgrove example shown previously, from the existing lanes, and similarly take an consistent approach to cycle lanes at junctions (e.g. if cyclists are going to be treated like pedestrians at junctions and roundabouts take them onto the path at that point, don't leave them on the inside of left turning traffic). Close off rat runs to cars but leave them available to bikes, such that people naturally cycle less busy roads.

First and foremost, make it mandatory for anyone involved in design, development and maintenance of cycling infrastructure to actually cycle it on a regular basis. Might actually end up with something that works.

All absolutely true. We need to put the money back into the Mountains-to-the-Sea greenways from Glenasmole to Ringsend/Sandymount, and the two canal greenways, for a start - these three would provide a lot of off-road routes for cyclists. And then we need to do things a little gradually, learning as we go.

But I do think it's important to make protected cycleways to schools, so that worried mammies (and I use the word in a non-sex-linked sense) will let their kids cycle.

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yes, this already has been shown to work in Dublin. Make estates permeable to pedestrians and cyclists, but not to cars.

Balally/Dundrum has reasonable levels of school children cycling, and I assume it's because of this restricted permeability.

There are some nice riverside cycles, such as along the Slang, too. More of these shouldn't be too controversial. They actually are used, unlike the Potemkin cycle tracks elsewhere.

Making estates car-run-through-free but cycleable and walkable is a great idea. Where's the Slang?

boardbeer wrote: »

One of the stated goals for advanced stop lanes that is given in France, is to take cyclists out of the exhaust zone, and for that reason I will always take advantage of the ASL where present. Who needs the extra respiratory problems, cancers and cardiovascular damage that vehicle exhausts cause?
Mostly, though, the front car has stopped in the box.

Yeah, as a semi-professional wheezer myself, I prefer to be ahead of the diesel and petrol fumes. I actually don't find the cars are in the bike lane that much.

Someone said "We are not Germans or Danes or Dutch" - but neither were the Germans and Danes and Dutch, in the cycling sense, until they started making nice car-free cycleways so that cyclists could sweep through their cities without taking their lives into their hands.

tomasrojo

Chuchote wrote: »

Where's the Slang?

It's the river that flooded the Dundrum Town Centre a few years ago.

There's a walking/cycling route out to Marlay Park that runs alongside it, starting at the pedestrian crossing at the bottom of Sandyford Road. If you have a long or wide bike, it is marred a bit by a kissing gate in the middle, but I think you can go through Meadowbrook and rejoin the route. I'm going to find out soon anyway.