maynooth line capacity

thomasj

On Thursday morning, in reply via Twitter to Simeone who couldnt board the first inbound train from maynooth, irish rail had apologised stating that all available capacity is out.

Thursday and yesterday on my way the work using the train for the first time in a long time, I noticed intercity railcar operating maynooth line services. There were complaints by people online who couldnt board docklands services that were operated by intercity railcars

It has been quite a while since I have used the maynooth line but one thing that has stood out for me is the increase in intercity railcars on the maynooth line since I've used it.

Why is this happening ? Are there issues with commuter railcars? It's such a drop in capacity, to be running intercity railcars on busy commuter lines especially during the dublin bus strike is madness!

Infini

It really depends on what links are available at what times. Some trains will finish in other places after the previous day. Also with the bus strike it puts even more pressure than normal on under-resourced rail services.

end of the road

thomasj wrote: »

On Thursday morning, in reply via Twitter to Simeone who couldnt board the first inbound train from maynooth, irish rail had apologised stating that all available capacity is out.

Thursday and yesterday on my way the work using the train for the first time in a long time, I noticed intercity railcar operating maynooth line services. There were complaints by people online who couldnt board docklands services that were operated by intercity railcars

It has been quite a while since I have used the maynooth line but one thing that has stood out for me is the increase in intercity railcars on the maynooth line since I've used it.

Why is this happening ? Are there issues with commuter railcars? It's such a drop in capacity, to be running intercity railcars on busy commuter lines especially during the dublin bus strike is madness!

i agree and this has been a problem for a long time.
IE know intercity railcars aren't suitable for suburban services but they put them on them anyway. they then put suburban railcars which should be operating suburban services onto long distance services.
you also have the issue that IE don't maintain the DMU'S in dublin now, droghida and portlaoise (way out of the way of course but good old ireland) so sometimes this means links having to operate to droghida and all heuston suburbans are ran by intercity railcars.
it works for IE so that is all that matters of course, don't expect it to change.

MrMorooka

When the 2800s where moved out of Dublin, 22ks took up all their links. That's pretty much it.

end of the road

MrMorooka wrote: »

When the 2800s where moved out of Dublin, 22ks took up all their links. That's pretty much it.

but from what i'm hearing 22k operation on the maynooth and m3 parkway seems to be way way more regular then the amount of times i ever remember seeing a 2800 when they were in dublin. i was around the dublin area frequently during their last years of operation there. so i do think it's a lot more then 22ks simply taking up 2800 links.

Stephen15

Why were the 28ks moved out of dublin the ICRs could be moved down to limerick or cork since those would be more suitable down there.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why were the 28ks moved out of dublin the ICRs could be moved down to limerick or cork since those would be more suitable down there.

So they could withdraw 27k trains that were deemed to be too unreliable.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why were the 28ks moved out of dublin the ICRs could be moved down to limerick or cork since those would be more suitable down there.

due to the subsidy reduction, IE cut capacity dispite the fact the capacity was actually still needed. they therefore decided to withdraw the 2700s as they were the least reliable of the suburban railcar fleet, so the 2800s were moved to limerick (they and the 2600s interwork now i believe) . they were built by the same manufacturer so make a nice little common fleet.
out of limerick, ICRS would only really be best used for limerick waterford and limerick galway due to them being intercity routes. a 26/27/2800 would be fine for the ballybroaphy branch if it was at full speed but that's never going to happen. they are also fine for the limeric to the junction shuttle. 2600s are fine for cork suburban.
but it's all a mute point as IE does what it likes whether it actually works or not. it works for them and as i said that is the only thing that matters.

IE 222

Could the 2700 not be brought back in at all. The 2750s would be great on nenagh and off peak ennis and Ballina branch. Seems to me there is excess stock in limerick and cork and better planning and rostering down there would benefit dublin massively.

L1011

There are some similarities between the 8200 and 2700 albeit likely none in traction. I'd like to see a tender for a total rework of both - including the 2750s to be able to reliably work as singles for very low traffic lines like Ballybrophy, the WRC or Dunboyne at night - or the south Wexford if you wanted. They never worked single as far as I know.

Renovated 8200s working would reduce the costs of stock for DU and/or make a second life extension refit on the 8100s more practical in future.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

Could the 2700 not be brought back in at all. The 2750s would be great on nenagh and off peak ennis and Ballina branch. Seems to me there is excess stock in limerick and cork and better planning and rostering down there would benefit dublin massively.

they're are only 2 2750s so they would really only be able to stay on 1 line. i agree though the 2700s need to come back.

L1011 wrote: »

There are some similarities between the 8200 and 2700 albeit likely none in traction. I'd like to see a tender for a total rework of both - including the 2750s to be able to reliably work as singles for very low traffic lines like Ballybrophy, the WRC or Dunboyne at night - or the south Wexford if you wanted. They never worked single as far as I know.

Renovated 8200s working would reduce the costs of stock for DU and/or make a second life extension refit on the 8100s more practical in future.

i agree with this but it depends on how far gone the 8200s are at this stage. i think it's unforgivable that their manufacturer got away with providing a shoddy product but we are where we are i suppose.

IE 222

2750s could only really be based in limerick, worthless anywhere else. Afaik limerick provide Ballina branch and run the small routes like nenagh.

Put another ICR down there and you can take 4 unit pairs for Dublin.

Longford morning services should run non stop after maynooth with smaller ICR stock

Jem72

As a Longford commuter, I'd love the morning services to run non-stop after Maynooth, but I don't think it would be hugely practical. Really, the only reason the Longford commuter services exist at all is that it as easy to stable and run these trains to Maynooth from Longford as it is to do so from the city centre.

You could certainly make an argument for having them non-stop between Clonsilla and Broombridge or Drumcondra. Doing this would release 12 29k units at a cost of 6 to 8 ICR units. (The 0545 service dropped down to a 4-car set a couple of years back). It would also give Maynooth, Leixlip and Clonsilla commuters the benefit of an extra 2 fast runs into town at a cost of a slight drop in service levels for the stations closer to town who've all had the benefit of an increase in frequency from the M3 parkway trains a few years back.

Personally, I never use any Longford commuter services as the trains are just too uncomfortable for commuting that distance. I arrange my day around the Sligo InterCity trains. In particular, the 1715 is a complete waste of time of a service since it runs only 10 minutes behind the 1705 but gets you home half an hour later in considerable discomfort. It is nice to have an entire carriage to yourself though.

IE 222

Jem72 wrote: »

As a Longford commuter, I'd love the morning services to run non-stop after Maynooth, but I don't think it would be hugely practical. Really, the only reason the Longford commuter services exist at all is that it as easy to stable and run these trains to Maynooth from Longford as it is to do so from the city centre.

You could certainly make an argument for having them non-stop between Clonsilla and Broombridge or Drumcondra. Doing this would release 12 29k units at a cost of 6 to 8 ICR units. (The 0545 service dropped down to a 4-car set a couple of years back). It would also give Maynooth, Leixlip and Clonsilla commuters the benefit of an extra 2 fast runs into town at a cost of a slight drop in service levels for the stations closer to town who've all had the benefit of an increase in frequency from the M3 parkway trains a few years back.

Personally, I never use any Longford commuter services as the trains are just too uncomfortable for commuting that distance. I arrange my day around the Sligo InterCity trains. In particular, the 1715 is a complete waste of time of a service since it runs only 10 minutes behind the 1705 but gets you home half an hour later in considerable discomfort. It is nice to have an entire carriage to yourself though.

Agreed. I think Longford would suffice with just one service and the early Sligo. Bring the Sligo morning service forward 10mins.

Early Longford run with a 4 car ICR non stop from maynooth and remove kilcock and enfield stops from both as well. Should knock 10/15mins of journey time.

Use 2 of 2900s with a express from mullingar or enfield with all stops to maynooth Leixlip confey and non stop from Clonsilla. Should do mullingar dublin in 1.15hrs.

LXFlyer

There are several reasons for the current setup, which is not ideal.

The principal reason was the need to cut costs as a result of demand falling sharply and government subvention being cut.

This meant that the company was forced into making tough decisions which meant putting the 2700 fleet into storage along with some of the Mark 4 fleet.

Now some people here may not like to hear it but that was done out of financial necessity.

The result was that the 2800 fleet was moved to Limerick and there had therefore to be a mix of ICR and 29k sets operating the Connolly commuter services - there are not enough 29k sets to do everything

The only way that this can be changed is if the 2700s are restored to service and the 2800s return to Dublin.

That will require an increase in government subvention - people need to start realising M that most of the difficult decisions that the public transport companies have had to make, and the slowness to respond to the uptake in the economy are as a result of the cut in government spending - and that is only beginning to slowly unwind - all three semi-state companies face the same issue - lack of funds - indeed the NTA CEO alluded to it in a speech recently.

Most of the 22k sets that work commuter trips then go on to work Intercity trips - while other ICRs go for servicing in Drogheda.

IE 222

Not disputing why it's happening and I'm notrying suggesting IE are doing it on purpose because it suits them better.

But I do think there is easier solutions main one been the reintroduction of the 2700s. It's unlikely to happen without a major renewal programme at this stage. So what else could be done.

Better planning or rearranged services times or starting points could make hugh benefits. Replacing under used 2600s or 2800 with ICRs would be an easy step. Changing stock on some services like the early morning Longford wold free up three 2900 sets.

end of the road

just better scheduling and diagramming would likely rid us of some of the issues. insuring ICRS for all long distance services all the time could be done if the will was there to sort it out. it's not though, and i do think IE aren't really to bothered. people on long distance services pay for, and expect a reasonable standard of comfort, all of the time, not when the company can be bothered to provide it. and on the connolly side what some long distance passengers pay for only gets delivered some of the time. they're is no excuse for it capacity cut or not. the user does not care, nor should they care about the reasons whether they are genuine ones such as funding cuts meaning capacity cuts dispite it still being needed, or self inflicted ones such as IE being unwilling to change their practices or putting depots in idiotic locations (all trains in the dublin area or arriving into dublin should be maintained in dublin)

dowlingm

The 2750s were a waste of money. Putting 2 cabs in one coach probably wasn't cheap and then IE decided not to run them in service, either because of not wanting to depend on one engine or because a 1 coach DMU has issues around signals detection.

I thought I saw muttering a few weeks ago that the 2800s were being returned to Dublin and the 2700s brought out of storage?

For me, the best solution (albeit not cheap or quick) would be electrifying the Maynooth line and buying some EMUs, not to depend on squeezing more life out of the DMU fleet. What's the projected lifespan of the (22 year old) 2600 fleet, anyway?

IE 222

dowlingm wrote: »

The 2750s were a waste of money. Putting 2 cabs in one coach probably wasn't cheap and then IE decided not to run them in service, either because of not wanting to depend on one engine or because a 1 coach DMU has issues around signals detection.

I thought I saw muttering a few weeks ago that the 2800s were being returned to Dublin and the 2700s brought out of storage?

For me, the best solution (albeit not cheap or quick) would be electrifying the Maynooth line and buying some EMUs, not to depend on squeezing more life out of the DMU fleet. What's the projected lifespan of the (22 year old) 2600 fleet, anyway?

Wouldn't say they were a waste of money they were handy for making up different formations. There was no real need for them to work alone when bought. Not sure if they are restricted from running a single unit. They would be great on nenagh and Ballina and could offer an off peak limerick waterford service.

Talk of 2800s coming to Dublin. Nothing confirmed.

foggy_lad

One of those 2750 units was damaged in a collision with a tractor some years ago afaik and was not used since that, I thought that the remaining 2750 was then used to form part of the 3 car train that operates Galway-Limerick?

beauf

thomasj wrote: »

...It has been quite a while since I have used the maynooth line but one thing that has stood out for me is the increase in intercity railcars on the maynooth line since I've used it.....

Over the past two year and especially the last year in my opinion there's a lot more intercity trains on the route. They really don't suit a lot of people standing.

You have to stand a lot more often these days, and get the train from the docklands a lot earlier if you want a seat.

dowlingm

IE 222, 2751 and 2753 did solo work on Nenagh branch in 2005 so my recollection of them not running in service was incorrect but I am reasonably sure they didn't last long on that duty.
http://www.irrs.ie/Journal157/157%20Locomotives.htm

L1011

foggy_lad wrote: »

One of those 2750 units was damaged in a collision with a tractor some years ago afaik and was not used since that, I thought that the remaining 2750 was then used to form part of the 3 car train that operates Galway-Limerick?

operated, as its either 2800 or 22000 now, but yes - they painted it up to look like an ICR and all.


The rail census released yesterday has a last page showing set capacities and does not specify any standing capacity in an ICR at all. I wonder does the RSC assume the same? As they get a lot of standing, particularly the set used to M3 Parkway.

beauf

There are times its probably 40% of passengers are standing on that route. Its literally nose to nose, especially between the cars.

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

Over the past two year and especially the last year in my opinion there's a lot more intercity trains on the route. They really don't suit a lot of people standing.

You have to stand a lot more often these days, and get the train from the docklands a lot earlier if you want a seat.

The rostering is complicated as you have to get sets to/from Drogheda for servicing over a set period and this can dictate where sets start/finish.

As I said above - with one exception (a 6 piece ICR on the northern line) all of the sets are inter worked with Intercity services - that also can dictate what they end up operating also.

The bottom line is that unless the 2700s are pushed back into service there are not enough commuter units around to operate the commuter services. That needs increased government subvention.

thomasj

L1011 wrote: »

The rail census released yesterday has a last page showing set capacities and does not specify any standing capacity in an ICR at all. I wonder does the RSC assume the same? As they get a lot of standing, particularly the set used to M3 Parkway.

That rail census also states (the part of the 10 busiest stations)

The appearance of
Maynooth in the top 10 list could be indicative of increased patronage on commuter services to Heuston.

So not sure what to make of it

beauf

Its been standing room only (sometimes not even that) for 20yrs on the Maynooth line.

Yes capacity and frequency has increased, but it has never kept pace with demand. We've had previous discussions about this. Standing is normal around the world at peak. Usually they have straps and handles and areas designed for standing where this is the case. Its a decent services. But it can be uncomfortable due to the carriages not being ideally designed for standing. In my opinion.

thomasj

beauf wrote: »

Its been standing room only (sometimes not even that) for 20yrs on the Maynooth line.

Yes capacity and frequency has increased, but it has never kept pace with demand. We've had previous discussions about this. Standing is normal around the world at peak. Usually they have straps and handles and areas designed for standing where this is the case. Its a decent services. But it can be uncomfortable due to the carriages not being ideally designed for standing. In my opinion.

completely agree

LXFlyer

Well as above - the only way to change this is to lobby politicians for an increase in subsidy to allow the 2700s back into service.

Even then though I suspect that you will still have some crossover between Intercity and Commuter sets to maximise their utilisation - although perhaps not on services such as Docklands.

kidneyfan

is it really practical to expect to get on a train at Coolmine at 8:15 and not have to stand?

devnull

kidneyfan wrote: »

is it really practical to expect to get on a train at Coolmine at 8:15 and not have to stand?

Try getting on the Metro in Paris, or the Tube in London.

People in this country are more allergic to standing in any other country I've known.

Don't get me wrong extra capacity is needed, but the anti-standing mentality at rush hour here is much worse than any other city I have been in.

beauf

kidneyfan wrote: »

is it really practical to expect to get on a train at Coolmine at 8:15 and not have to stand?

Thats not the issue. Which is why I said

"Standing is normal around the world at peak"

However it would be nice if standing to have a handle. At the moment if you're between the doors, you're in a tiny corridor/box with about 30 other people, almost no handles, smooth walls, no open windows. If there's a sudden stop people have no way of stopping themselves falling into others. In a crash who knows what would happen. On a day to day basis though its unpleasant a lot of the time.

beauf

devnull wrote: »

... but the anti-standing mentality at rush hour here is much worse than any other city I have been in.

Not a huge fan of being launched bodily into other passengers. But thats just me.

devnull

beauf wrote: »

Not a huge fan of being launched bodily into other passengers. But thats just me.

I agree that the ICR trains could be adapted to make standing more comfortable but expecting not to stand at peak times is crazy and once again is another example of people in Ireland who have no idea what a city with proper transport is like.

Carawaystick

L1011 wrote: »

I wonder does the RSC assume the same? As they get a lot of standing, particularly the set used to M3 Parkway.

The RSC always say standing is grand, and overcrowding is safe....

Sorry, the rsc say it is not possible to overcrowd a train, so as a train is never overcrowded, its safe.

beauf

devnull wrote: »

I agree that the ICR trains could be adapted to make standing more comfortable but expecting not to stand at peak times is crazy and once again is another example of people in Ireland who have no idea what a city with proper transport is like.

No one complaining about standing. The thread was not being able to board. No even room to stand.

I'm just adding, the intercity is IMO unsuited to large numbers standing.

Usually someone will roll in that they are design to handle the weight of standing passengers. Which isn't the issue either. That's just a deflection. I'm not worried about breaking the train.

end of the road

you see even with the 2700s out, better scheduling and keeping ICR sets separate from the suburban pool would make things a lot easier for everyone. they could still be utilised doing the jobs they were actually designed for, growing services elsewhere or insuring long distance services have the capacity they need as in waterford and sligo.
for the moment a couple will have to work maynooth but they're is no good reason for the regularity of it. both sets of stock are designed for different duties and the suburban sets should be kept to suburban duties only as that is where their capacity is justified. not on long distance services where people pay highish to high fares for decent comfort yet only get it some of the time aka connolly long distance.
both sets of stock are not suited to each other's job. end of story.
as i said before, the current system works for IE so it won't be changing and with depots out of dublin half way down the country that is going to play a huge part in this problem continuing even if the 2700s come back and a subsidy increase happens.

beauf wrote: »

If there's a sudden stop people have no way of stopping themselves falling into others. In a crash who knows what would happen. On a day to day basis though its unpleasant a lot of the time.

a very good point.

kidneyfan

beauf wrote: »

Thats not the issue. Which is why I said

"Standing is normal around the world at peak"

However it would be nice if standing to have a handle. At the moment if you're between the doors, you're in a tiny corridor/box with about 30 other people, almost no handles, smooth walls, no open windows. If there's a sudden stop people have no way of stopping themselves falling into others. In a crash who knows what would happen. On a day to day basis though its unpleasant a lot of the time.

Thank goodness the windows are not open. One thing that would make a difference is if it the policy changed to 'Give up seats to those who need them at once or be put off the train and out of the station'

beauf

kidneyfan wrote: »

Thank goodness the windows are not open. ...

The point being, AFAIK, there's no AC on the intercity in the corridor between carriages. (think thats why those sliding doors are there) Then you stick 30 people in there, nose to nose on a hot day. Its like being in the back of a van. Even in a regular day it gets pretty warm and airless.

loyatemu

The ICRs are unsuited to commuter services full stop, as they only have doors at the ends of the carriages and everyone has to shuffle out in single file.

With DU off the menu for the time being, Maynooth commuters should be lobbying hard for electrification of the line - it's the only long term solution.

n97 mini

beauf wrote: »

Its been standing room only (sometimes not even that) for 20yrs on the Maynooth line. .

Aye. In the late 1990s I often boarded the guard's van from the ditch beyond the end of the platform in Castleknock. Which wasn't acceptable even then. The Maynooth line wasn't called the Calcutta Express for nothing.

n97 mini

kidneyfan wrote: »

is it really practical to expect to get on a train at Coolmine at 8:15 and not have to stand?

At peak times there should be trains running non-stop from Maynooth/Leixlip/Clonsilla at peak time, there are enough people at those stops to fill a train. Then followed by a stopping service calling at all stations from Clonsilla in, as there are enough people at those stops to fill another train.

GM228

I see the 2700s geting mentioned a lot and there has been previous "rumours" about them returning so let me clarify.


IE are currently undertaking an explority project to reintroduce 20 2700s (10 sets) which currently has no completion date, in the last month or so they have identified a number of sets at Inchicore and Cork to be reintroduced should the project go ahead. This has involved the recent starting up of a number of sets to identify any problems with them.

Problem is funding, a minimum of €30,000 is required just to get 20 cars back into service and that's before any additional problems/issues are sorted.

The plan is under the control of Limerick as opposed to Inchicore suggesting they would end up back in Limerick with the 2800s going back in Drogheda, but my sources tell me it's Drogheda bound for the 2700s and the 2800s will stay as is.

IE 222

GM228 wrote: »

I see the 2700s geting mentioned a lot and there has been previous "rumours" about them returning so let me clarify.


IE are currently undertaking an explority project to reintroduce 20 2700s (10 sets) which currently has no completion date, in the last month or so they have identified a number of sets at Inchicore and Cork to be reintroduced should the project go ahead. This has involved the recent starting up of a number of sets to identify any problems with them.

Problem is funding, a minimum of €30,000 is required just to get 20 cars back into service and that's before any additional problems/issues are sorted.

The plan is under the control of Limerick as opposed to Inchicore suggesting they would end up back in Limerick with the 2800s going back in Drogheda, but my sources tell me it's Drogheda bound for the 2700s and the 2800s will stay as is.

€30,000 seems very cheap to get them up and running and shouldn't be holding back or delaying the project. I know there is likely to be further problems. I'm sure a quick whip around of unhappy customer on the maynooth line would fund it in a day if that was the total cost. 20 units would make a massive difference but still believe slight changes in station stops will be the big game changer.

Why is there a need to swap limericks 2800s. Is there a reason as to why 2800s would be better suited to Dublin.

Although ICRs will be better suited for PTT as stops are less and spread out more is there possibilities 20 units could be used there.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

I see the 2700s geting mentioned a lot and there has been previous "rumours" about them returning so let me clarify.


IE are currently undertaking an explority project to reintroduce 20 2700s (10 sets) which currently has no completion date, in the last month or so they have identified a number of sets at Inchicore and Cork to be reintroduced should the project go ahead. This has involved the recent starting up of a number of sets to identify any problems with them.

Problem is funding, a minimum of €30,000 is required just to get 20 cars back into service and that's before any additional problems/issues are sorted.

The plan is under the control of Limerick as opposed to Inchicore suggesting they would end up back in Limerick with the 2800s going back in Drogheda, but my sources tell me it's Drogheda bound for the 2700s and the 2800s will stay as is.

the 2800s remaining in limerick would make more sense actually seeing as they and the 2600 are effectively a common fleet. in saying that though the 2700s do like the work out of limerick as it's not to taxing on them.

Jem72

Is there a zero missing in that 30,000 figure. That's only 1,500 euro per unit which would probably barely cover an oil change and a full tank of fuel. Is Irish Rail really that starved of funds that it needs to park up units for the want of 1,500 euro?

Getting these up and running again would nicely fill a capacity hole until they can get round to Maynooth electrification.

I think the Maynooth line is long overdue a service split where some trains should go non-stop between Clonsilla and Broombridge. This should have been done when the M3 parkway service started. The resulting 10 minute decrease in journey times could possibly release a set or two for extra peak-time runs. This would probably become a bit more feasible when Luas BXD opens and Broombridge becomes more attractive as a destination.

GM228

€30,000 is the initial costing in the project to bring their safety systems in line with other fleets.

Costings for other items such as components which may require overhaul/replacement have not been made yet, hence why I said minimum. That is still ongoing and no doubt the overall cost will rise.

Costings associated with fuel, oil etc are part of the running/maintenance budgets and not specific to each class type and would not be a cost associated with the reintroduction project.

The fuel/oil tanks on some of the 2700s are still slightly fueled and they were being started every now and then until a year or so ago so fuel degregation and condensation is now an issue.

Captain Chaos

end of the road wrote: »

the 2800s remaining in limerick would make more sense actually seeing as they and the 2600 are effectively a common fleet. in saying that though the 2700s do like the work out of limerick as it's not to taxing on them.

True and the lads in Limerick were doing a fine job in keeping the troublesome 2700s in good working order.

I can't see them performing well back on the Northern line working out of Drogheda. They couldn't handle Rosslare services at all, they were just not up to the task. The 2800s handled it just fine.

If the 2700s are to be used for anything in the Dublin region that would be just for Docklands diagrams and free of some 29k and ICR sets.

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

€30,000 is the initial costing in the project to bring their safety systems in line with other fleets.

Costings for other items such as components which may require overhaul/replacement have not been made yet, hence why I said minimum. That is still ongoing and no doubt the overall cost will rise.

Costings associated with fuel, oil etc are part of the running/maintenance budgets and not specific to each class type and would not be a cost associated with the reintroduction project.

The fuel/oil tanks on some of the 2700s are still slightly fueled and they were being started every now and then until a year or so ago so fuel degregation and condensation is now an issue.

That's where you are wrong.

You can't just look at one single cost in isolation. You would have to include the costs of operating them - that includes additional drivers to drive them - the cost would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher than that figure. The daily operating costs have to be part of the project.

That all requires additional PSO funding.

You will find that the operators now insist that for any new PSO service, that they receive additional annual PSO funding to pay for the extra operating costs.

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

That's where you are wrong.

You can't just look at one single cost in isolation. You would have to include the costs of operating them - that includes additional drivers to drive them - the cost would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher than that figure. The daily operating costs have to be part of the project.

That all requires additional PSO funding.

You will find that the operators now insist that for any new PSO service, that they receive additional annual PSO funding to pay for the extra operating costs.

I'm talkin about the costs associated with their reintroduction project not their runnin costs which are seperate, this is an internal project which isn't part of any new PSO service.

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

I'm talkin about the costs associated with their reintroduction project not their runnin costs which are seperate, this is an internal project which isn't part of any new PSO service.

The whole point is that you cannot look at the two in isolation.

There is no point in expending money in bringing them back into a serviceable condition if you don't then have any funds to operate them.