Potential New Bike Café around Enniskerry

Chuchote

Sunsets On Tuesday wrote: »

Haven't thought much about food

:eek:

And further

:eek:

Food is the most important thing in a cafe. There's a nice local cafe here, about 100 metres from me, but I don't go there because the scones are a bit dry and the coffee isn't nice. I go a kilometre to a cafe with excellent food (their Eggs Benedict Royale mmmm ) and only go to the nearby one when meeting friends. Another one I used to go to about twice a week when they made their own cakes (their coconutty macaroons were delish) and abandoned them except when meeting a particular friend when they started buying in slightly dry and slightly cheaper cakes. I often go to Little Bird on the South Circular for their soup and vegetarian sandwich combo, which is always excellent.

A good soup-of-the-day is important - hearty, delicious and filling, and with crumbly slices of brown bread on the side, or a good sandwich. Good cakes - super-important. Really good coffee - essential. Good tea - in a pot, not mugs - ditto. Strong hot chocolate. Nice cold drinks - the only thing I'll drink in Starbucks is their delicious large frozen shaken lemon tea, sour and delicious.

And nice crockery - Cake in Camden Street, a ladies' secret (go through the handmade paper shop behind the bus stop near the Simon Shop) has the perfect mix - old-fashioned china cups, saucers and plates, nothing matching. Also great cakes and nice salads, and madeira wine if you're lovelorn and need it. I abandoned another local cafe when they started serving their excellent coffee in paper cups. Sheesh! Closed down soon after, and has now reopened - with crockery cups.

Thud

ckeego wrote: »

Stepaside is another place that has few (if no) cafes..

Not an up the mountains solution but not far from Enniskerry so might be a good spot to test the waters, the Kilternan Country Market is only open for a few hours every Saturday morning, could be worth checking if they would be open to subletting their premises or carpark.
Probably a bit close for south Dublin based cyclists but might get them on the way back, would think its one of the busiest leisure cyclist roads around.

Chuchote

You don't just want touring and long-distance cyclists, though, you want 'footfall' locally, so it might be an idea to be close to local shops?

smacl

Chuchote wrote: »

Glenasmole is near the source of the Dodder. Gleann na Smól, the Glen of the Thrushes. Last place Irish was spoken in Dublin. Surrounded by Seefin, Seahan and Kippure. A stunning, secret place. Look for Glenasmole Community Centre, South Dublin on Google Maps.

They made a bit of a mess of the river side section connecting the back gate to the upper lake, by chucking rough gravel over the previously pleasant compacted sand. Fine on the CX bike, but wouldn't much fancy it on a road bike. The track on the other side is good fun for a lunch time spin, and there's always the option of Cunard / Glassamucky for a challenging climb on the way back.

Chuchote

smacl wrote: »

They made a bit of a mess of the river side section connecting the back gate to the upper lake, by chucking rough gravel over the previously pleasant compacted sand. Fine on the CX bike, but wouldn't much fancy it on a road bike. The track on the other side is good fun for a lunch time spin, and there's always the option of Cunard / Glassamucky for a challenging climb on the way back.

I wouldn't even think of cycling around the lake on the hoggen track, it's designed for walking, and cycling is surely just going to cut it up?

Glenasmole from the air:

Wishbone Ash

Fantastic pic Chuchote. :cool:

(Hard to believe it only a few kms from Tallaght!)

Chuchote

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Fantastic pic Chuchote. :cool:

(Hard to believe it only a few kms from Tallaght!)

Not mine (though I do have some beautiful pics of Glenasmole… somewhere…) - internet-sourced. But it's even more beautiful in person.

Just 14km from Harold's Cross…

smacl

Chuchote wrote: »

I wouldn't even think of cycling around the lake on the hoggen track, it's designed for walking, and cycling is surely just going to cut it up?

Not really, the river side is quite regularly used by local cyclists as it is by far the easiest way in and out of Cunard by bike. The other side is a well compacted forest path which you're not going to dent on a bike. Both sides have occasional vehicle access, which is why I'd guess the fresh gravel was put down. The fact that there is a 'Cyclists dismount' on the steeper gravel ramp section would indicate that cycling is one of the expected uses.

Eponymous

Sunsets On Tuesday wrote: »

By the way, does anyone have a good "bike imagination" to suggest good cycling related names for the very much hypothetical place?
"Look Mum No Hands" is a simple but cool name. Trying to think of anything clever like that has my mind blank.. Be Creative!
Only thing I could think of is "Maillot Jaune" or an irish twist "An geansaí buí" but again I never said I was good..

Café V

Chuchote

Peloton?
Musette?
Flamme Rouge?
Chapeau!

Tabnabs

OP, might be worth having a look at the http://www.thruthegreencoffeeco.com/ model, a 'drive-through' coffee shop business in an existing car park that is, theoretically, mobile. You could sublet some space in a pub car park for example and it's a pretty secure design once you lock it up at night. Seems a low overhead model that can be shifted to a new location if the need arises.

robyntmorton

Chuchote wrote: »

Peloton?
Musette?
Flamme Rouge?
Chapeau!

I second the name of La Musette as put forward by the honourable Chuchote.

It's what you get in the feed zone after all!

magicbastarder

Meals on wheels?

smacl

magicbastarder wrote: »

Meals on wheels?

Or as the mother-in-law calls them, disasters on castors

Chuchote

And you'd have to have Bicycle Repair Man on staff:

I'd think just Musette rather than La Musette. La Musette sounds a bit classy and off-putting, Musette sounds like a kitten

Another name idea, Wheelers.

Sunsets On Tuesday

Thud wrote: »

Not an up the mountains solution but not far from Enniskerry so might be a good spot to test the waters, the Kilternan Country Market is only open for a few hours every Saturday morning, could be worth checking if they would be open to subletting their premises or carpark.
Probably a bit close for south Dublin based cyclists but might get them on the way back, would think its one of the busiest leisure cyclist roads around.

Again I was thinking of Kilternan Country Market, but not sure how it'd work. Would be a great location still, on the way back for most cyclists perhaps

Londonirish72

Here is my 2 cents.

I live in London and have a friend who part-owns a cycling shop/cafe in East Sussex (south of London and in a wealthy county). Here is what works for him (and I am probably echoing previous posters here).

Get a local club to base themselves out of there and sell club kit and organise TTs and Sportives.
Have a blackboard with Strava KOMs and weekly distance records etc.
If you are bothered you could get a cycling teaching qualification so you could start coaching/teaching kids how to ride and race. It encourages parents to come along too.
If you can get a property that has a covered or secure bike area then your shop should become the place for clubs and groups to begin and end their rides. Either that or rig up a CCTV so owners can see their bikes outside when they are inside.
A TV or lounge area will ensure that people stay and order more food and drink.
If you are going to rent bikes then you will need a mechanic which means you become a bike repair shop too. No harm in that, but then you will need a mechanic in addition to someone to make coffees and serve customers. It seems to me that most small bike shops seem to make their bread and butter out of repairs and parts but I'd bet that there is a higher profit margin in a latte vs selling a new bike.
Customer service is key. Hiring a teenager to serve food and drinks may be cheaper but cyclists often like to talk cycling with somebody so you need a cycling bore at the front of house.

Hope it works out for you.

robyntmorton

Londonirish72 wrote: »

Cyclists often like to talk cycling with somebody so you need a cycling bore at the front of house.

I take offence at that! Cyclists are never boring!

Thud

Sunsets On Tuesday wrote: »

Again I was thinking of Kilternan Country Market, but not sure how it'd work. Would be a great location still, on the way back for most cyclists perhaps

It seems like an ideal location and is shut 99% of the time, surely they'd be willing to take some money off you. Even if you based a mobile unit in their car park on weekday evenings and went to the hills at weekends.
http://www.kilternancountrymarket.com/

gaffmaster

I also think a van is a good way to start this off. I'm London based too. There's one at the top of Leith Hill sometimes, and we regularly curse it when it's not there!

Sunsets On Tuesday

Thud wrote: »

It seems like an ideal location and is shut 99% of the time, surely they'd be willing to take some money off you. Even if you based a mobile unit in their car park on weekday evenings and went to the hills at weekends.
http://www.kilternancountrymarket.com/

Yeah I did find it odd that it's literally only open from like 10 to 12 on a Saturday, for most of the time it's closed so it may be good looking into that perhaps.
Now that the mobile unit idea seems to keep cropping up, I wonder what sort of permissions you'd need to set up shop in a car park somewhere, or at the side of a road.

Sunsets On Tuesday

Londonirish72 wrote: »

Here is my 2 cents.

I live in London and have a friend who part-owns a cycling shop/cafe in East Sussex (south of London and in a wealthy county). Here is what works for him (and I am probably echoing previous posters here).

Get a local club to base themselves out of there and sell club kit and organise TTs and Sportives.
Have a blackboard with Strava KOMs and weekly distance records etc.
If you are bothered you could get a cycling teaching qualification so you could start coaching/teaching kids how to ride and race. It encourages parents to come along too.
If you can get a property that has a covered or secure bike area then your shop should become the place for clubs and groups to begin and end their rides. Either that or rig up a CCTV so owners can see their bikes outside when they are inside.
A TV or lounge area will ensure that people stay and order more food and drink.
If you are going to rent bikes then you will need a mechanic which means you become a bike repair shop too. No harm in that, but then you will need a mechanic in addition to someone to make coffees and serve customers. It seems to me that most small bike shops seem to make their bread and butter out of repairs and parts but I'd bet that there is a higher profit margin in a latte vs selling a new bike.
Customer service is key. Hiring a teenager to serve food and drinks may be cheaper but cyclists often like to talk cycling with somebody so you need a cycling bore at the front of house.

Hope it works out for you.

This is all fantastic advice that I will take very seriously. Getting a local club to set up there is the best way to go I think, but which clubs in the Enniskerry area would be interested? I'd have thought Orwell and most other cycling clubs would have a pretty well founded base now. The organisation of TTs and Sportives would definitely work very well and I'd like to get into that side of cycling (i.e. the organisation side) too.
The blackboard with Strava koms and distance challenges is a great idea too, something I was thinking about for the especially steep hill going out of Enniskerry if I set up shop there.
Teaching cycling would also be something I'm interested in but haven't given much thought, how would one get the certificates for that?

Regarding bike security that would be a thing I'd make sure to keep on top on, ideally you want the cyclist to forget about their bike when inside because it's so secure (unlike most other cafés where I at least am always checking on it).
Tv would be key to show all the cycling, as you said would attract people but also keep them inside.
A repair shop would be something to nicely compliment the café, you could get something fixed while drinking a coffee, but costs could rise quickly if I have to employ a mechanic and baristas.
And lastly regarding the type of employee, I'd agree that getting someone interested in cycling and able to talk about it would be of extreme importance, I mean if they're just your average joe it's not really much of a bike café is it?!
Really appreciate your first hand knowledge, super useful.

Crocked

I always wondered why an ice cream van can set up at viewpoint but no-one selling coffee/sandwiches/snacks etc has tried it.

Its a popular and natural stop for a lot of cyclists heading into the hills, along with tourists and day-trippers etc

Is the ice cream van just chancing his arm hoping the council won't move him on an any given day during the summer? Coffee/food would surely have more year round appeal than ice cream would, and it'd be popular enough in all seasons with hikers, mountain bikers, bikers etc passing that way. Although there is a coffee place just down the road near the Hellfire but never seems to be many cars in the carpark as I pass and I've never stopped into it myself.

Wishbone Ash

Slightly off topic but I noticed a mobile coffee stop in a small car park somewhere on the southside recently (possibly between Dundrum and Sandyford?). Seems to be operating out of the back of a van. Has it been there long?

Sunsets On Tuesday

Crocked wrote: »

I always wondered why an ice cream van can set up at viewpoint but no-one selling coffee/sandwiches/snacks etc has tried it.

Its a popular and natural stop for a lot of cyclists heading into the hills, along with tourists and day-trippers etc

Is the ice cream van just chancing his arm hoping the council won't move him on an any given day during the summer? Coffee/food would surely have more year round appeal than ice cream would, and it'd be popular enough in all seasons with hikers, mountain bikers, bikers etc passing that way. Although there is a coffee place just down the road near the Hellfire but never seems to be many cars in the carpark as I pass and I've never stopped into it myself.

Yeah you'd think if anything it should be easier to set up a coffee van there, rather than an ice cream van. They seem to be able to do whatever they want anyway so it's hard to know

The J Stands for Jay

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I noticed a mobile coffee stop in a small car park somewhere on the southside recently (possibly between Dundrum and Sandyford?). Seems to be operating out of the back of a van. Has it been there long?

Beside the small park on the Sandyford road, Balgawley park? It's been there for at least a year.

Kaisr Sose

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I noticed a mobile coffee stop in a small car park somewhere on the southside recently (possibly between Dundrum and Sandyford?). Seems to be operating out of the back of a van. Has it been there long?

If it's the one I think of, it's a dangerous place for a roadside coffee stop. I have been passed by cars here only for them to cross in front of me into the cycle lane to go for a coffee. Some also just pull out without looking right to see if the cycle lane is clear. I emailed the council to question why or if they issued a licence for casual trading on what is a public parking space. He blocks two spaces and restricts access to a disabled space for commercial gain. The council said they would investigate and revert. That was 6 months ago - no word.

I am all for caual trading, if the location is a safe / appropriate location.

Chuchote

It might be worth talking to the people who run the Rothar cafe in Dublin city centre, who also run cycling and bike mending and professional bike mechanic classes and repurpose secondhand bikes for re-use. They might (I don't know them) even want to come in on this with you.

From the point of view of the passing cyclist, I don't know that a van is going to cut it. I like to get off my bike and sit down in a bit of comfort and relax. Others may feel differently though.

Plastik

Are you looking to open a coffee shop with a side order of cyclists, or a bike shop with a side order of coffee? Because they're both very different affairs.

There are a lot of good ideas in the thread but a lot of pie in the sky stuff that just breeds confusion too. A lot of people mention good food is a must. That's fine, but are you going to have a kitchen and staff preparing the food? Will this mean you need someone on the till, a barista and someone in the kitchen all weekend every weekend? If catered towards cyclists keep it simple - scones, pastries, and cyclist orientated confectionary. Thats it. Someone doing bike repairs? That's another wage bill you have to find.

Good value good coffee and space are my two biggest considerations when stopping. Space in terms of getting a seat and space in terms of somewhere to put the bike. Even food is a secondary consideration. I don't go cycling to go for breakfast somewhere, I don't care if you do the greatest eggs benedict in the world, I'll never have them - I'm sure many, many others feel the same.

Someone mentioned crockery? Who cares. Never once in any time I've ever stopped for coffee have I ever thought that fancy crockery added any extra value.
Lounge area showing cycling? Wasted space. Tables, chairs and plenty of them. None with cushions, because on a wet day a wet cyclists arse ruins that seat for every subsequent customer. Have a few TV's on the walls showing stuff.

A lot have mentioned the Glendalough Green as a good example of somewhere. In my opinion they do well by virtue of their location and little more. The coffee is massively overpriced - Dublin city centre prices - and you're more likely to be greeted with a scowl by the lady behind the till than a welcome. I've stopped going there unless it's an emergency stop.

Trying to bring a local cycling club to your shop to have themselves based there? Forget it. It'll happen naturally or not at all. The best thing you can do in that regard is advertise the crap out of a "shop ride" every week at some time. That'll be the slow burner club that will grow organically.

if it's predominantly a coffee shop with a side order of cyclists just stock tubes, chain links, chains, tyre levers. All that small crap. I wouldn't carry a single item of clothing other than a small selection of overshoes, arm & knee warmers and maybe some rain gilets.

Of course a lot of the above can change completely if you need to make a proper go of a commercial coffee shop that will be able to stand on its own two feet for the other five days of the week when all the cyclists are in work dreaming of visiting you.

The biggest own goal I've seen in recent years in this whole concept was Cycleplus in Greystones. The town probably sells more cups of coffee per capita than any other town in Ireland. They had a shop in a prime location right in the middle of the town and on the sunny side of the Main St. Never once did they ever try something like this despite having a TV inside showing cycling a lot of the time. Instead they had yards of retail space inside devoted to overpriced tyres and racks of Altura high vis gear. They eventually had to vacate the premises because of the cost of rates, but with a bit of creative thinking it could have been a runner. Such a missed opportunity. They even had the shop ride outs going at one stage too.

ThisRegard

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Fantastic pic Chuchote. :cool:

(Hard to believe it only a few kms from Tallaght!)

As kids living on what was then the outskirts of Tallaght in the 80s, we'd often find ourselves around there on our bikes. It felt so distant that you'd race around the place half scared you'd never find your way home, and rarely visit the full length of the reservoir. Used to know the guy that lived in the house at the entrance.